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2750SV: Re: Language shift: Finnish > Germanic

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  • Jens Persson <arnljotr@yahoo.se>
    Mar 2, 2003
      Heill Daniel.

      This is an interesting topic to look at, indeed.

      My view point is that Proto-Germanic -- the ancestor of "pure"
      English, "pure" Dutch, "pure" Dalecarlian etc -- was formed in a
      Finno-Ugric speaking environment which slowly adapted to the Indo-
      European way of living and speaking.

      I hardly believe that the Germanic language came to Scandinavia with
      Germanic people. Sami people definitely lived over most of what is
      today known as Scandinavia. Genetically, Scandinavian have been here
      longer than the Indo-European language. There are myths about
      different Germanic tribes moving north from, e.g., Denmark to settle
      Norway and Sweden. I believe that only the rulers physically moved --
      bringing updated Indo-European language elements --, the original
      people had been living there for thousands of years, and they are
      still living there (I speak about genetics here).

      This is a history I think is quite plausible:

      Together with the edge of the great ice, cro-magnons moved to
      northern Europe. No clue what language they spoke, but they are
      genetically the ancestors of the sami people.
      Thousands and thousands of years later, a Finnish speaking population
      from the south east came to Scandinavia and northern Europe. There
      are indications also that they settled large portions of central
      Europe, but definitely not the western parts. Genetically, they are
      the ancestors of the Scandinavians. They spoke a language which the
      southern branch of the sami people adapted. That is why I find south
      sami very interesting.
      A few thousand of years later, there was a need for iron in southern
      Europe since the Greek civilization expanded. Of course, there is
      iron in Scandinavia, and the trading of this metal of power made
      Scandinavians Indo-European speaking. But sami people did not change
      language a second time, by some reason (definitely related to their
      nomadic style of living). germanic was formed somewhere in southern
      Scandinavia and perhaps northern Germany
      Later on, Germanic spread and developed into what is known from
      written sources.

      I hope this supposition will be unsparingly critized.

      Skål ta mej faan!
      /Jens Persson, aka Arnljotr

      Daniel Bray wrote:

      > Heill Jens,
      > A very interesting field this. I believe the late Prof. Edgar
      Polomé was
      > beginning an extensive project on the substrate etyma found in
      > languages (there's an article on it in the Journal of Indo-European
      > vol. 26, #1&2). Unfortunately, he will never finish this project.
      It would be
      > interesting to see the difference (if any) between substrate words
      > Scandinavian languages and Continental Germanic. I had read some
      time ago
      > that genetic studies indicated that Scandinavia had been
      extensively settled
      > by the ancestors of the Saami and Suomi from the north and east
      > Germanic settlement from the south.It would be interesting to see
      if there is
      > a significant Finno-Ugric substrate in the Scandinavian languages.
      Has anyone
      > besides Polomé done any significant work (pref. in English) in
      this area?
      > Dan
      > "Jens Persson " wrote:
      > > Here is an interesting article about the language shift we had in
      > > Scandinavia for 2500-3000 years ago (it is a supposition, I should
      > > point out):
      > > http://www.taurnet.se/historia/jarnsvenska.htm
      > > I wonder, how is it with the etymology: are there more Indo-
      > > etymological ''gaps'' for the Germanic words than for, e.g., the
      > > Greek or Latin ones? And what about the explanation that these
      > > can be filled by non-Indo-European words? What about filling them
      > > with Finnish words?
      > >
      > > I should point out that with Finnish, I do not mean 21th century
      > > standard Finnish as spoken in Finland; one could imagine an
      > > uncle within the Finno-Ugric frame.
      > >
      > > Skål ta mej faan!
      > > /Jens Persson, aka Arnljotr
      > >
      > > "Kan man adoptera barn från Colombia kan man väl också adoptera
      > > från bronsåldern."
      > > Annika Luther
      > >
      > >
      > > Sumir hafa kvæði...
      > > ...aðrir spakmæli.
      > >
      > > - Keth
      > >
      > > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
      > >
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      > --
      > Daniel Bray
      > dbray@m...
      > School of Studies in Religion A20
      > University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia
      > "Human history becomes more and more a race between education and
      > catastrophe." H. G. Wells (1866 - 1946)
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