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Re: [NorCalFire] Public perception: They didn't do anything!

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  • Rick S
    Jake Those binders would be like Santa s naughty or nice list... This case, naughty for not paying your taxes! Okay next house. Opps! not that one either! Oh
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 6, 2013
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      Jake

         Those binders would be like Santa's naughty or nice list... This case, naughty for not paying your taxes! Okay next house. Opps! not that one either! Oh wait! cant do that one either, they didnt comply with the 100 foot defensible space. On to the next block....


      On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Pamela Alley <rnrq@...> wrote:
       

      Was just talking to someone in the middle of the Summit fire area, and their take on what they saw of the fire presence was absolutely abysmal. Said they saw fire *trucks*, but no action by firefighters; this person's husband went past trucks to help someone and was just watched by the FF's, with active fire nearby.

      Of course, those not familiar with firefighting might misinterpret, but it would sure be nice to be able to explain what people are seeing. Apparently today they 'aren't even addressing hot spots, they're just watching'--how do I explain this to people who saw the men they expect to dive in and work to protect them and their homes, standing by while they burn?

      (Note: El Medio engines and the Palermo engine were seen to be 'working their asses off' hitting the fire directly and received praise from the people who were complaining about lack of action otherwise.)

      So help me out here--I'd like to defend what CalFire does, but it's really hard when confronted with opinions like this.


    • carosephoto
      Thank you Jim Acker for taking the time to respond in a reasoned and thoughtful manner. There is no doubt that a fire, like any emergency situation, has the
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 7, 2013
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        Thank you Jim Acker for taking the time to respond in a reasoned and thoughtful manner. There is no doubt that a fire, like any emergency situation, has the potential to provoke strong reactions on the part of those that are affected by the event. It is not at all uncommon for there to be bystander interpretations that are based on a mix of emotions (frustration, anger, confusion) rather than an understanding of tactics and strategy used to efficiently and effectively mitigate hazards associated with fire suppression. As it has already been said, the various scenarios that could have been playing out at the moment in question are many and varied. Conditions on the ground do not always allow for "going direct" on a fire, but this may not be easily understood by members of the public. The general perception of simply putting water on fire is the ultimate dumbing down of he very essence of firefighting and I say this with all due respect and with a clear understanding that I know only a fraction of what the seasoned firefighter knows


        The notion of CAL FIRE personnel basing their actions on a list of those that may, or may not, have paid a tax isn't even worth addressing in this particular forum. It is absurd and insulting. Just my two pennies worth.


        - Craig

        - http://emergencyphoto.zenfolio.com



        ---In norcalfire@yahoogroups.com, <jimfire@...> wrote:

        Public perception is a big issue with most government agencies.   A majority of complaints come because people do not understand the how’s and why’s of emergency operations.  They do not understand or consider accountability or safety and often have no idea of the bigger tactical picture.  They look at someone squirting water and think that is always good and they see someone not squirting water and consider that as not-so-good.   

         

        If you were to ask ANY firefighter the answer would always be the same.  They love to fight fire.  Anytime.  Anywhere.  Sitting and watching is boring, monotonous and frustrating.  There is a time and a place for everything however, and sometimes waiting is the better option when safety and overall tactics are considered.   Some fire is better off left burning.  Putting out ten miles of jagged fireline in the brush can be dangerous and not always effective.  Waiting until that fireline reaches a manageable boarder like a road, a body of water or some other sort of fuel break is often much more efficient, safe, and requires a lot less resources to manage.  This tactic lets the commanders assign those same resources to other areas of the fire where they may be needed more and where the work can be accomplished safely.  There may be small “jackpots” of fuels that could be extinguished along that jagged line to help keep the fire in check as well as for structural fire protection where possible, but generally when firefighters are seen to be doing nothing, it is because they are waiting for the proper moment to do “something” intelligently and safely.

         

        I was on the Summit fire.  It was a wind driven fire that was moving quickly in heavy fuels.  To jump out in front of it in many cases would have either been suicidal or a waste of time.  As good as it looks to squirt water, extinguishing a few hundred (or thousand!)  feet of line is useless if you cannot anchor your line where the advancing fire won’t outflank you.    

         

        There is a place in Sacramento where we remember firefighters that either accidentally or intentionally could not stand by and “do nothing”.  It’s known as the Fallen Firefighter’s Memorial.  CA FF Memorial  It’s a nice place to visit, but none of us want to live there.

         

         

         

        Jim

         

         

         

         

      • Pamela Alley
        *changing topic slightly*   Strictly as a side note, back east there have been a couple of news stories on houses burning to the ground and fire standing
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 7, 2013
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          *changing topic slightly*
           
          Strictly as a side note, back east there have been a couple of news stories on houses burning to the ground and fire standing by--because a fire protection tax or fee was unpaid. :(
           
          I am thankful that with the well-known morals and attitude of CAL FIRE, that's not a problem we will ever be likely to face!
           
          *back to the topic at hand*
           
          I can't tell you guys how much your input is helping here.  I've spoken with people who had previously been baffled and upset, and the light bulb went 'click' and they went, "Oh!  I never thought of it that way." and "Well that makes sense, then."
           
          Thanks again, guys. :)

          PA 
        • k9gvf
          Everyone s given most of the good answers I could think of... :) Additionally, just ask the crew - THEY know what they are doing! How stupid one gets to feel
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 7, 2013
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            Everyone's given most of the good answers I could think of...  :)


            Additionally, just ask the crew - THEY know what they are doing!  


            How stupid one gets to feel if they answer "we just pulled up, saw this, called for and are waiting for a water tender and another crew so we can start to work..."


            Of course if the question is too complicated or pressing they will defer to Public Information Office contact - and CalFire is real good about making "if you have any questions" contact info available.


            I guess public mis-conceptions and ignorantly formed conclusions are better than getting out and trying to stomp out the fire themselves wearing fashion shoes and highly flammable fabrics... not much better though...


            (reminds me of the recently running radio call-in show spoof with a lady complaining that 'they' should make deer cross the road in a safer place because she's hit deer 3 times... duh-oh...  and these people get to vote...)



            ---In norcalfire@yahoogroups.com, <norcalfire@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

            Jake and Jim and company:
             
            Thank you so very much for such awesome answers!  That's going to help a lot the next time I talk to this gal and have to listen to her vent about how CAL FIRE didn't do a darn thing. :)  THIS time I will have some intelligent things for her to consider, and that helps people think, rather than rant.
             
            MANY thanks from a lowly citizen who appreciates all CALFIRE does!

            PA

               If you paid your regular state taxes each year, then you already paid your share for a year's worth of personal protection from every calfire engine, aircraft, and groundpounder, and the 300+ cal oes engines that supplement them when the smoke gets heavy. 
             
            PS: And at that, Jake, it's cheap at the price. --PA
          • twobells2001
            If you read the text of this TAX, the procedes do not go to front line troops or engine, air, crews, dozers etc. The procedes go to, more overhead, office
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 7, 2013
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              If you read the text of this TAX, the procedes do not go to front line troops or engine, air, crews, dozers etc.

              The procedes go to, more overhead, office types, suits, R & D people. Certinally some are necessary, but not to the point of needing all the TAX monies. How about the front line troops in the field.
                                                                                                                                                                                           Joe Lacey      


              On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 7:27 AM, Pamela Alley wrote:

                 *changing topic slightly*
               
              Strictly as a side note, back east there have been a couple of news stories on houses burning to the ground and fire standing by--because a fire protection tax or fee was unpaid. :(
               
              I am thankful that with the well-known morals and attitude of CAL FIRE, that's not a problem we will ever be likely to face!
               
              *back to the topic at hand*
               
              I can't tell you guys how much your input is helping here.  I've spoken with people who had previously been baffled and upset, and the light bulb went 'click' and they went, "Oh!  I never thought of it that way." and "Well that makes sense, then."
               
              Thanks again, guys. :)

              PA 
            • Craig Rose
              Forgive me, but what exactly does the tax have to do with the original observations? Just wondering how exactly you are connecting the two.
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 8, 2013
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                Forgive me, but what exactly does the tax have to do with the original observations? Just wondering how exactly you are connecting the two.

                On Oct 7, 2013, at 3:11 PM, twobells2@... wrote:

                If you read the text of this TAX, the procedes do not go to front line troops or engine, air, crews, dozers etc.

                The procedes go to, more overhead, office types, suits, R & D people. Certinally some are necessary, but not to the point of needing all the TAX monies. How about the front line troops in the field.

              • twobells2001
                Can you say CAL FIRE . Joe Lacey On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Craig Rose wrote: Forgive me, but what exactly does the tax have to do with the original
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 8, 2013
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                  Can you say CAL FIRE .
                                                                                                         Joe Lacey


                  On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Craig Rose wrote:

                     Forgive me, but what exactly does the tax have to do with the original observations? Just wondering how exactly you are connecting the two.

                  On Oct 7, 2013, at 3:11 PM, twobells2@...wrote:

                  If you read the text of this TAX, the procedes do not go to front line troops or engine, air, crews, dozers etc.

                  The procedes go to, more overhead, office types, suits, R & D people. Certinally some are necessary, but not to the point of needing all the TAX monies. How about the front line troops in the field.

                • Craig Rose
                  Oh, okay, that s very illuminating.
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 8, 2013
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                    Oh, okay, that's very illuminating.

                    On Oct 8, 2013, at 3:24 PM, twobells2@... wrote:

                    Can you say CAL FIRE .
                                                                                                           Joe Lacey


                    On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Craig Rose wrote:

                       Forgive me, but what exactly does the tax have to do with the original observations? Just wondering how exactly you are connecting the two.

                  • Cap Pennell
                    Not in regard to the original observations either, but more info, FAQs, and SRA maps are at the State of California website, http://www.firepreventionfee.org/
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 8, 2013
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                      Not in regard to the original observations either, but more info, FAQs, and SRA maps are at the State of California website,

                      http://www.firepreventionfee.org/

                       

                      73, Cap KE6AFE

                       

                      From: Craig Rose [mailto:craigallynrose@...]
                      Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 3:58 PM
                      To: norcalfire@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [NorCalFire] RE: Public perception: They didn't do anything!

                       




                      Oh, okay, that's very illuminating.

                       

                      On Oct 8, 2013, at 3:24 PM, twobells2@... wrote:



                      Can you say CAL FIRE .

                                                                                                             Joe Lacey



                      On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Craig Rose wrote:

                       

                         Forgive me, but what exactly does the tax have to do with the original observations? Just wondering how exactly you are connecting the two.





                    • twobells2001
                      Grants Pass, Ore has private fire dept s in competion in same areas, whom collect a yearly fee from property owners. If they show up and you haven t paid your
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 9, 2013
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                        Grants Pass, Ore has private fire dept's in competion in same areas,
                        whom collect a yearly fee from property owners.

                        If they show up and you haven't paid your fee they let your joint burn.
                        There is no mutual aid to assist the other company's.

                        One company is family owned and the people that showed up are poorly
                        trained if at all. There is a video on you tube someone shot in Grants
                        Pass of these private company's responding to a working fire, what a
                        circus, the fire continued out of control, lack of water, lack of turn
                        out gear, people running amuck yelling. They lost the house. ( see
                        attached video )

                        I wonder if homeowner gets their money back. Wonder what the fire
                        insurance premiums in the area are. This is not a poor area there are
                        upscale homes there.


                        Joe Lacey

                        On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 7:27 AM, Pamela Alley wrote:

                        *changing topic slightly*

                        Strictly as a side note, back east there have been a couple of news
                        stories on houses burning to the ground and fire standing by--because a
                        fire protection tax or fee was unpaid. :(

                        I am thankful that with the well-known morals and attitude of CAL FIRE,
                        that's not a problem we will ever be likely to face!

                        *back to the topic at hand*

                        I can't tell you guys how much your input is helping here. I've spoken
                        with people who had previously been baffled and upset, and the light
                        bulb went 'click' and they went, "Oh! I never thought of it that way."
                        and "Well that makes sense, then."

                        Thanks again, guys. :)

                        PA



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • twobells2001
                        Attachment didn t come through. Go to youtube type in, Worst Fire Department in the United States. Joe Lacey On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 6:38 PM,
                        Message 11 of 18 , Oct 9, 2013
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                          Attachment didn't come through.

                           Go to youtube type in, Worst Fire Department in the United States.

                                                                                                                                                                           Joe Lacey


                          On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 6:38 PM, twobells2@... wrote:

                            
                          Grants Pass, Ore has private fire dept's in competion in same areas,
                          whom collect a yearly fee from property owners.

                          If they show up and you haven't paid your fee they let your joint burn.
                          There is no mutual aid to assist the other company's.

                          One company is family owned and the people that showed up are poorly
                          trained if at all.  There is a video on you tube someone shot in Grants
                          Pass of these private company's  responding to a working fire, what a
                          circus, the fire continued out of control, lack of water, lack of turn
                          out gear, people running amuck yelling. They lost the house. ( see
                          attached video )

                          I wonder if homeowner gets their money back. Wonder what the fire
                          insurance premiums in the area are. This is not a poor area there are
                          upscale homes  there.

                          Joe Lacey

                          On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 7:27 AM, Pamela Alley wrote:

                          *changing topic slightly*

                          Strictly as a side note, back east there have been a couple of news
                          stories on houses burning to the ground and fire standing by--because a
                          fire protection tax or fee was unpaid. :(

                          I am thankful that with the well-known morals and attitude of CAL FIRE,
                          that's not a problem we will ever be likely to face!

                          *back to the topic at hand*

                          I can't tell you guys how much your input is helping here.  I've spoken
                          with people who had previously been baffled and upset, and the light
                          bulb went 'click' and they went, "Oh!  I never thought of it that way."
                          and "Well that makes sense, then."

                          Thanks again, guys. :)

                          PA

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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