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  • Paul Mullen
    In my ongoing efforts to get Avenue.Quark to create NewsML docs, I have been having a lot of difficulty getting Avenue to read the NewsML dtd correctly - it
    Message 1 of 9 , Aug 1 7:17 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      In my ongoing efforts to get Avenue.Quark to create NewsML docs, I have been
      having a lot of difficulty getting Avenue to read the NewsML dtd correctly -
      it had a tendency to distort the NewsML tree structure and to name elements
      '()' (ie empty parentheses) rather than, for example, 'NewsComponent'. I
      have talked to tech support at Avenue.Quark (full response below) who have
      suggested that Avenue fails to import the dtd correctly because manner in
      which subelements are specified within elements. On their suggestion I have
      made the following changes to elements in the NewsML dtd which do indeed
      help Avenue.Quark to import it (almost) correctly:


      ======== NewsML ========
      FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , (NewsEnvelope , NewsItem+ )
      )>
      TO: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , NewsEnvelope, NewsItem+)>


      ======== NewsItem ========
      FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsItem (Comment* , Catalog? , Identification ,
      NewsManagement , (NewsComponent | Update+ | TopicSet )? )>
      TO: <!ELEMENT NewsItem (Comment* , Catalog? , Identification ,
      NewsManagement , NewsComponent , Update+, TopicSet? )>


      ======== NewsComponent ========
      FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsComponent (Comment* , Catalog? , TopicSet* , Role? ,
      BasisForChoice* , NewsLines? , AdministrativeMetadata? , RightsMetadata? ,
      DescriptiveMetadata? , Metadata* , ( (NewsItem | NewsItemRef )+ |
      NewsComponent+ | ContentItem+ )? )>
      TO: <!ELEMENT NewsComponent (Comment* , Catalog? , TopicSet* , Role? ,
      BasisForChoice* , NewsLines? , AdministrativeMetadata? , RightsMetadata? ,
      DescriptiveMetadata? , Metadata* , ContentItem+ )>


      ======== ContentItem ========
      FROM: <!ELEMENT ContentItem (Comment* , Catalog? , MediaType? , Format? ,
      MimeType? , Notation? , Characteristics? , (Encoding | DataContent )? )>
      TO: <!ELEMENT ContentItem (Comment* , Catalog? , MediaType? , Format? ,
      MimeType? , Notation? , Characteristics? , Encoding? , DataContent? )>


      What I'd like to know is:
      * It is valid to edit the dtd in this way.
      * I am not an XML expert so am unsure of what implications these changes
      will have.
      * Will my Avenue.Quark xml documents still technically conform to NewsML and
      be exchangeable with other NewsML systems.
      * Is Avenue.Quark's inability to read the dtd a fault with the dtd itself?
      * the parentheses that have been removed - what did they do?


      Cheers,
      Paul Mullen
      (hopefully not the only person in the world trying to use Quark with NewsML)



      ============================================
      FULL RESPONSE FROM AVENUE.QUARK TECH SUPPORT
      ============================================

      Hi Paul,

      I've now had a chance to look at your files a little more in-depth, and have
      some information that I believe will help you with this issue. In regards to
      you previous question, I've not heard of any other customers using
      avenue.quark and the NewsML DTD at this point, though in looking into this
      issue it should make it easier to help other customers who choose to use
      this DTD.

      In examining your files, it seems that the problem is that the DTD you sent
      me (NewsMLv1.0.dtd) doesn't quite match the doctree.jpg file structure that
      you sent along with it. In the doctree.jpg file that you sent, it is defined
      that the NewsML element can contain the elements Catalog, TopicSet,
      NewsEnvelope, and NewsItem. However, in the DTD you sent, the subelements
      contained within NewsML contain other subelements, which are NewsEnvelope
      and NewsItem, illustrated in the DTD as follows:

      <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , (NewsEnvelope , NewsItem+ ) )>

      I've found that it is the presence of this second set of subelements that
      result in the empty parentheses when editing Tagging Rule sets. When I made
      the following change to the DTD, it then would match the structure specified
      in the doctree.jpg file, and corrected the problem with Edit> Tagging Rules:

      <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , NewsEnvelope, NewsItem+)>

      This specifies that the NewsML element can contain zero or one occurrence of
      Catalog, zero or more occurrences of TopicSet, one occurrence of
      NewsEnvelope, and one or more occurrence of NewsItem, as listed in the text
      of the DTD.

      Please be aware, you might have to look into your DTD a little further, as
      I've found that this happens in at least one more place in your DTD as it is
      (under NewsItem). Also, I investigated this using XML Authority (which
      showed the DTD as avenue.quark did) as opposed to XML Spy. I'll look into
      this with a copy of XML Spy as well to see there are any differences in
      behavior between the two applications.

      I hope this information helps. If you have any other questions or concerns
      relating to this issue, please don't hesitate to contact me again.


      Regards,
      Greg Stretton
      Quark Technical Support



      -----Original Message-----
      From: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...]
      Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 5:35 AM
      To: avenue-user-support
      Subject: Re: NewsML docs


      Thanks Greg. I look forward to hearing from you. If I have any further info,
      I'll send it on. Have you heard of anyone else using Avenue.Quark with the
      NewsML dtd?

      Rgds,
      Paul




      > From: avenue-user-support <avenue-user-support@...>
      > Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:20:24 -0600
      > To: 'Paul Mullen' <paul@...>
      > Subject: RE: NewsML docs
      >
      > Hi Paul,
      >
      > Thanks for providing this information and your files. I've seen the
      problem
      > you described in your files, though I'll need to investigate this a little
      > further in order to determine the cause of this. I haven't been able to
      > immediately identify anything that you've been doing wrong, so hopefully
      > further examination into this will yield some good results. I'll let you
      > know my findings as soon as possible, and please let me know any other
      > pertinent information or findings you may have on this issue in the
      > meantime.
      >
      >
      > Regards,
      > Greg Stretton
      > Quark Technical Support
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...]
      > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 6:15 AM
      > To: avenue-user-support@...
      > Subject: NewsML docs
      >
      >
      > Greg,
      >
      > Thanks for getting back to me - I appreciate that this may be a dtd
      problem
      > and would not therefore be something you cover. I have validated the dtd
      in
      > XMLspy (seemes OK) and it is also now an approved standard for the news
      > industry, published by the IPTC, so I'd be a little surprised if it was a
      > dtd issue - but you never know!
      >
      > Attached files:
      > 1. The NewsMLv1.0 dtd
      > 2. A sample news page I am trying to convert to xml using this dtd
      > 3. A jpg showing the NewsML dtd tree structure.
      >
      > Platform:
      > Mac OS 9.0.4
      > Quark v4.11
      > Avenue v1.0
      > 411 Fixit extension installed
      >
      > Method:
      > 1. File/New xml (opens new xml file dialogue box)
      > 2. Select custom.xmt
      > - choose NewsMLv1.0.dtd
      > - choose NewsML as root element
      > - Rule set in 'none' (no other options)
      > - click OK
      > 3. As no rule set is selected, Choose Edit/Tagging rules, select new set.
      > Use this rule set to define links between paragraph styles and dtd
      elements.
      >
      >
      > Problems:
      > 1. In rule set dialogue box, window showing dtd tree structure does not
      > reflect that indicated in the attached jpg illustration.
      > For example, Within the NewsML element should be 4 sub elements
      > (NewsEnvelope, Catalog, TopicSet, NewsItem). What actually appears is:
      > Catalog, TopicSet, (). NewsEnvelope appears within the unnamed () element,
      > which is why I think Avenue.Quark is misreading the structure of the dtd.
      > 2. Strange, unnamed () elements appear at various points throughout the
      dtd
      > tree, a further example being the DataContent element which is within the
      > ContentItem element. This is a crucial problem as it means I cannot put
      any
      > actual content into the xml file.
      >
      >
      > It may be that in reading this, you immediately spot something that I am
      > doing wrong - in which case apologies for the 'dtd-mashing' accusations.
      > However I have followed the steps in the tutorial and can't see anything
      > obvious that I've missed. Please contact me if you need further
      information.
      >
      > cheers,
      > Paul Mulen
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Cassio Prazeres
      Is Avenue.Quark free? ... De: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@peoplemanagement.co.uk] Enviada em: quarta-feira, 1 de agosto de 2001 11:17 Para: newsml@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 9 , Aug 1 7:52 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        Is Avenue.Quark free?

        -----Mensagem original-----
        De: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...]
        Enviada em: quarta-feira, 1 de agosto de 2001 11:17
        Para: newsml@yahoogroups.com
        Assunto: [newsml] Avenue.quark


        In my ongoing efforts to get Avenue.Quark to create NewsML docs, I have been
        having a lot of difficulty getting Avenue to read the NewsML dtd correctly -
        it had a tendency to distort the NewsML tree structure and to name elements
        '()' (ie empty parentheses) rather than, for example, 'NewsComponent'. I
        have talked to tech support at Avenue.Quark (full response below) who have
        suggested that Avenue fails to import the dtd correctly because manner in
        which subelements are specified within elements. On their suggestion I have
        made the following changes to elements in the NewsML dtd which do indeed
        help Avenue.Quark to import it (almost) correctly:


        ======== NewsML ========
        FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , (NewsEnvelope , NewsItem+ )
        )>
        TO: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , NewsEnvelope, NewsItem+)>


        ======== NewsItem ========
        FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsItem (Comment* , Catalog? , Identification ,
        NewsManagement , (NewsComponent | Update+ | TopicSet )? )>
        TO: <!ELEMENT NewsItem (Comment* , Catalog? , Identification ,
        NewsManagement , NewsComponent , Update+, TopicSet? )>


        ======== NewsComponent ========
        FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsComponent (Comment* , Catalog? , TopicSet* , Role? ,
        BasisForChoice* , NewsLines? , AdministrativeMetadata? , RightsMetadata? ,
        DescriptiveMetadata? , Metadata* , ( (NewsItem | NewsItemRef )+ |
        NewsComponent+ | ContentItem+ )? )>
        TO: <!ELEMENT NewsComponent (Comment* , Catalog? , TopicSet* , Role? ,
        BasisForChoice* , NewsLines? , AdministrativeMetadata? , RightsMetadata? ,
        DescriptiveMetadata? , Metadata* , ContentItem+ )>


        ======== ContentItem ========
        FROM: <!ELEMENT ContentItem (Comment* , Catalog? , MediaType? , Format? ,
        MimeType? , Notation? , Characteristics? , (Encoding | DataContent )? )>
        TO: <!ELEMENT ContentItem (Comment* , Catalog? , MediaType? , Format? ,
        MimeType? , Notation? , Characteristics? , Encoding? , DataContent? )>


        What I'd like to know is:
        * It is valid to edit the dtd in this way.
        * I am not an XML expert so am unsure of what implications these changes
        will have.
        * Will my Avenue.Quark xml documents still technically conform to NewsML and
        be exchangeable with other NewsML systems.
        * Is Avenue.Quark's inability to read the dtd a fault with the dtd itself?
        * the parentheses that have been removed - what did they do?


        Cheers,
        Paul Mullen
        (hopefully not the only person in the world trying to use Quark with NewsML)



        ============================================
        FULL RESPONSE FROM AVENUE.QUARK TECH SUPPORT
        ============================================

        Hi Paul,

        I've now had a chance to look at your files a little more in-depth, and have
        some information that I believe will help you with this issue. In regards to
        you previous question, I've not heard of any other customers using
        avenue.quark and the NewsML DTD at this point, though in looking into this
        issue it should make it easier to help other customers who choose to use
        this DTD.

        In examining your files, it seems that the problem is that the DTD you sent
        me (NewsMLv1.0.dtd) doesn't quite match the doctree.jpg file structure that
        you sent along with it. In the doctree.jpg file that you sent, it is defined
        that the NewsML element can contain the elements Catalog, TopicSet,
        NewsEnvelope, and NewsItem. However, in the DTD you sent, the subelements
        contained within NewsML contain other subelements, which are NewsEnvelope
        and NewsItem, illustrated in the DTD as follows:

        <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , (NewsEnvelope , NewsItem+ ) )>

        I've found that it is the presence of this second set of subelements that
        result in the empty parentheses when editing Tagging Rule sets. When I made
        the following change to the DTD, it then would match the structure specified
        in the doctree.jpg file, and corrected the problem with Edit> Tagging Rules:

        <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , NewsEnvelope, NewsItem+)>

        This specifies that the NewsML element can contain zero or one occurrence of
        Catalog, zero or more occurrences of TopicSet, one occurrence of
        NewsEnvelope, and one or more occurrence of NewsItem, as listed in the text
        of the DTD.

        Please be aware, you might have to look into your DTD a little further, as
        I've found that this happens in at least one more place in your DTD as it is
        (under NewsItem). Also, I investigated this using XML Authority (which
        showed the DTD as avenue.quark did) as opposed to XML Spy. I'll look into
        this with a copy of XML Spy as well to see there are any differences in
        behavior between the two applications.

        I hope this information helps. If you have any other questions or concerns
        relating to this issue, please don't hesitate to contact me again.


        Regards,
        Greg Stretton
        Quark Technical Support



        -----Original Message-----
        From: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...]
        Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 5:35 AM
        To: avenue-user-support
        Subject: Re: NewsML docs


        Thanks Greg. I look forward to hearing from you. If I have any further info,
        I'll send it on. Have you heard of anyone else using Avenue.Quark with the
        NewsML dtd?

        Rgds,
        Paul




        > From: avenue-user-support <avenue-user-support@...>
        > Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:20:24 -0600
        > To: 'Paul Mullen' <paul@...>
        > Subject: RE: NewsML docs
        >
        > Hi Paul,
        >
        > Thanks for providing this information and your files. I've seen the
        problem
        > you described in your files, though I'll need to investigate this a little
        > further in order to determine the cause of this. I haven't been able to
        > immediately identify anything that you've been doing wrong, so hopefully
        > further examination into this will yield some good results. I'll let you
        > know my findings as soon as possible, and please let me know any other
        > pertinent information or findings you may have on this issue in the
        > meantime.
        >
        >
        > Regards,
        > Greg Stretton
        > Quark Technical Support
        >
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...]
        > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 6:15 AM
        > To: avenue-user-support@...
        > Subject: NewsML docs
        >
        >
        > Greg,
        >
        > Thanks for getting back to me - I appreciate that this may be a dtd
        problem
        > and would not therefore be something you cover. I have validated the dtd
        in
        > XMLspy (seemes OK) and it is also now an approved standard for the news
        > industry, published by the IPTC, so I'd be a little surprised if it was a
        > dtd issue - but you never know!
        >
        > Attached files:
        > 1. The NewsMLv1.0 dtd
        > 2. A sample news page I am trying to convert to xml using this dtd
        > 3. A jpg showing the NewsML dtd tree structure.
        >
        > Platform:
        > Mac OS 9.0.4
        > Quark v4.11
        > Avenue v1.0
        > 411 Fixit extension installed
        >
        > Method:
        > 1. File/New xml (opens new xml file dialogue box)
        > 2. Select custom.xmt
        > - choose NewsMLv1.0.dtd
        > - choose NewsML as root element
        > - Rule set in 'none' (no other options)
        > - click OK
        > 3. As no rule set is selected, Choose Edit/Tagging rules, select new set.
        > Use this rule set to define links between paragraph styles and dtd
        elements.
        >
        >
        > Problems:
        > 1. In rule set dialogue box, window showing dtd tree structure does not
        > reflect that indicated in the attached jpg illustration.
        > For example, Within the NewsML element should be 4 sub elements
        > (NewsEnvelope, Catalog, TopicSet, NewsItem). What actually appears is:
        > Catalog, TopicSet, (). NewsEnvelope appears within the unnamed () element,
        > which is why I think Avenue.Quark is misreading the structure of the dtd.
        > 2. Strange, unnamed () elements appear at various points throughout the
        dtd
        > tree, a further example being the DataContent element which is within the
        > ContentItem element. This is a crucial problem as it means I cannot put
        any
        > actual content into the xml file.
        >
        >
        > It may be that in reading this, you immediately spot something that I am
        > doing wrong - in which case apologies for the 'dtd-mashing' accusations.
        > However I have followed the steps in the tutorial and can't see anything
        > obvious that I've missed. Please contact me if you need further
        information.
        >
        > cheers,
        > Paul Mulen
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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      • Daniel Rivers-Moore
        Removing the parentheses as you have done does indeed have consequences for the meaning of the DTD. That is, they make a difference between what document
        Message 3 of 9 , Aug 1 8:03 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          Removing the parentheses as you have done does indeed have consequences
          for the meaning of the DTD. That is, they make a difference between what
          document instance structures will or will not conform to the DTD.

          To go through your changes one by one:

          ======== NewsML ========
          FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , (NewsEnvelope ,
          NewsItem+ ))>
          TO: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , NewsEnvelope, NewsItem+)>

          This will make no difference. The meanings of the two are the same.

          In this case any document that conforms to your DTD will conform to
          NewsML, and vice versa.

          ======== NewsItem ========
          FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsItem (Comment* , Catalog? , Identification ,
          NewsManagement , (NewsComponent | Update+ | TopicSet )? )>
          TO: <!ELEMENT NewsItem (Comment* , Catalog? , Identification ,
          NewsManagement , NewsComponent , Update+, TopicSet? )>

          This DOES make a difference (and a significant one). The NewsML DTD
          means that there is optionally EITHER a single NewsComponent element, OR
          one or more Update elements, OR a single TopicSet element, but there
          cannot be a mix of NewsComponent, Update and TopicSet subelements. Your
          version makes the NewsComponent required (which it is not), makes Update
          required (which it is not), and allows NewsComponent, Update and
          TopicSet to occur together, which NewsML does not allow.

          In this case there will be no document that conforms both to your DTD
          and to NewsML.

          ======== NewsComponent ========
          FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsComponent (Comment* , Catalog? , TopicSet* , Role?
          ,
          BasisForChoice* , NewsLines? , AdministrativeMetadata? , RightsMetadata?
          ,
          DescriptiveMetadata? , Metadata* , ( (NewsItem | NewsItemRef )+ |
          NewsComponent+ | ContentItem+ )? )>
          TO: <!ELEMENT NewsComponent (Comment* , Catalog? , TopicSet* , Role? ,
          BasisForChoice* , NewsLines? , AdministrativeMetadata? , RightsMetadata?
          ,
          DescriptiveMetadata? , Metadata* , ContentItem+ )>

          This too is a significant change. You are requiring one or more
          ContentItem subelements, and not allowing NewsItem, NewsItemRef or
          NewsComponent. The NewsML DTD says that you may optionally have EITHER
          any number of NewsItem subelements or NewsItemRef subelements or a mix
          of the two, OR any number of NewsComponent subelements OR any number of
          ContentItem subelements, but you can't mix ContentItem subelements or
          Content Item subelements with each other or with NewsItem and
          NewsItemRef subelements.

          In this case, documents that conform to your DTD will confrom to the
          NewsML DTD, but not necessarily the other way round.

          ======== ContentItem ========
          FROM: <!ELEMENT ContentItem (Comment* , Catalog? , MediaType? , Format?
          ,
          MimeType? , Notation? , Characteristics? , (Encoding | DataContent )? )>
          TO: <!ELEMENT ContentItem (Comment* , Catalog? , MediaType? , Format? ,
          MimeType? , Notation? , Characteristics? , Encoding? , DataContent? )>

          Here, the NewsML DTD allows an optional Encoding or DataContent
          subelement, but not both. Your variant allows both to be present.

          In this case, the situation is the inverse of the previous one:
          documents that conform to the NewsML DTD will conform to yours, but not
          necessarily the other way round.


          You ask:
          * Is Avenue.Quark's inability to read the dtd a fault with the dtd
          itself?

          Answer - no. In the first case, the parentheses are not significant, but
          are not in error. In the other cases, they do make a difference to the
          meaning of the DTD, and cannot be removed.

          You might like to run these observations by the Avenue.Quark people and
          see if they have any further comments.

          Best regards

          Daniel Rivers-Moore
          Editor, NewsML v1.0


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...]
          Sent: 01 August 2001 15:17
          To: newsml@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [newsml] Avenue.quark


          In my ongoing efforts to get Avenue.Quark to create NewsML docs, I have
          been
          having a lot of difficulty getting Avenue to read the NewsML dtd
          correctly -
          it had a tendency to distort the NewsML tree structure and to name
          elements
          '()' (ie empty parentheses) rather than, for example, 'NewsComponent'. I
          have talked to tech support at Avenue.Quark (full response below) who
          have
          suggested that Avenue fails to import the dtd correctly because manner
          in
          which subelements are specified within elements. On their suggestion I
          have
          made the following changes to elements in the NewsML dtd which do indeed
          help Avenue.Quark to import it (almost) correctly:


          ======== NewsML ========
          FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , (NewsEnvelope ,
          NewsItem+ )
          )>
          TO: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , NewsEnvelope, NewsItem+)>


          ======== NewsItem ========
          FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsItem (Comment* , Catalog? , Identification ,
          NewsManagement , (NewsComponent | Update+ | TopicSet )? )>
          TO: <!ELEMENT NewsItem (Comment* , Catalog? , Identification ,
          NewsManagement , NewsComponent , Update+, TopicSet? )>


          ======== NewsComponent ========
          FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsComponent (Comment* , Catalog? , TopicSet* , Role?
          ,
          BasisForChoice* , NewsLines? , AdministrativeMetadata? , RightsMetadata?
          ,
          DescriptiveMetadata? , Metadata* , ( (NewsItem | NewsItemRef )+ |
          NewsComponent+ | ContentItem+ )? )>
          TO: <!ELEMENT NewsComponent (Comment* , Catalog? , TopicSet* , Role? ,
          BasisForChoice* , NewsLines? , AdministrativeMetadata? , RightsMetadata?
          ,
          DescriptiveMetadata? , Metadata* , ContentItem+ )>


          ======== ContentItem ========
          FROM: <!ELEMENT ContentItem (Comment* , Catalog? , MediaType? , Format?
          ,
          MimeType? , Notation? , Characteristics? , (Encoding | DataContent )? )>
          TO: <!ELEMENT ContentItem (Comment* , Catalog? , MediaType? , Format? ,
          MimeType? , Notation? , Characteristics? , Encoding? , DataContent? )>


          What I'd like to know is:
          * It is valid to edit the dtd in this way.
          * I am not an XML expert so am unsure of what implications these changes
          will have.
          * Will my Avenue.Quark xml documents still technically conform to NewsML
          and
          be exchangeable with other NewsML systems.
          * Is Avenue.Quark's inability to read the dtd a fault with the dtd
          itself?
          * the parentheses that have been removed - what did they do?


          Cheers,
          Paul Mullen
          (hopefully not the only person in the world trying to use Quark with
          NewsML)



          ============================================
          FULL RESPONSE FROM AVENUE.QUARK TECH SUPPORT
          ============================================

          Hi Paul,

          I've now had a chance to look at your files a little more in-depth, and
          have
          some information that I believe will help you with this issue. In
          regards to
          you previous question, I've not heard of any other customers using
          avenue.quark and the NewsML DTD at this point, though in looking into
          this
          issue it should make it easier to help other customers who choose to use
          this DTD.

          In examining your files, it seems that the problem is that the DTD you
          sent
          me (NewsMLv1.0.dtd) doesn't quite match the doctree.jpg file structure
          that
          you sent along with it. In the doctree.jpg file that you sent, it is
          defined
          that the NewsML element can contain the elements Catalog, TopicSet,
          NewsEnvelope, and NewsItem. However, in the DTD you sent, the
          subelements
          contained within NewsML contain other subelements, which are
          NewsEnvelope
          and NewsItem, illustrated in the DTD as follows:

          <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , (NewsEnvelope , NewsItem+ )
          )>

          I've found that it is the presence of this second set of subelements
          that
          result in the empty parentheses when editing Tagging Rule sets. When I
          made
          the following change to the DTD, it then would match the structure
          specified
          in the doctree.jpg file, and corrected the problem with Edit> Tagging
          Rules:

          <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , NewsEnvelope, NewsItem+)>

          This specifies that the NewsML element can contain zero or one
          occurrence of
          Catalog, zero or more occurrences of TopicSet, one occurrence of
          NewsEnvelope, and one or more occurrence of NewsItem, as listed in the
          text
          of the DTD.

          Please be aware, you might have to look into your DTD a little further,
          as
          I've found that this happens in at least one more place in your DTD as
          it is
          (under NewsItem). Also, I investigated this using XML Authority (which
          showed the DTD as avenue.quark did) as opposed to XML Spy. I'll look
          into
          this with a copy of XML Spy as well to see there are any differences in
          behavior between the two applications.

          I hope this information helps. If you have any other questions or
          concerns
          relating to this issue, please don't hesitate to contact me again.


          Regards,
          Greg Stretton
          Quark Technical Support



          -----Original Message-----
          From: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...]
          Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 5:35 AM
          To: avenue-user-support
          Subject: Re: NewsML docs


          Thanks Greg. I look forward to hearing from you. If I have any further
          info,
          I'll send it on. Have you heard of anyone else using Avenue.Quark with
          the
          NewsML dtd?

          Rgds,
          Paul




          > From: avenue-user-support <avenue-user-support@...>
          > Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:20:24 -0600
          > To: 'Paul Mullen' <paul@...>
          > Subject: RE: NewsML docs
          >
          > Hi Paul,
          >
          > Thanks for providing this information and your files. I've seen the
          problem
          > you described in your files, though I'll need to investigate this a
          little
          > further in order to determine the cause of this. I haven't been able
          to
          > immediately identify anything that you've been doing wrong, so
          hopefully
          > further examination into this will yield some good results. I'll let
          you
          > know my findings as soon as possible, and please let me know any other
          > pertinent information or findings you may have on this issue in the
          > meantime.
          >
          >
          > Regards,
          > Greg Stretton
          > Quark Technical Support
          >
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...]
          > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 6:15 AM
          > To: avenue-user-support@...
          > Subject: NewsML docs
          >
          >
          > Greg,
          >
          > Thanks for getting back to me - I appreciate that this may be a dtd
          problem
          > and would not therefore be something you cover. I have validated the
          dtd
          in
          > XMLspy (seemes OK) and it is also now an approved standard for the
          news
          > industry, published by the IPTC, so I'd be a little surprised if it
          was a
          > dtd issue - but you never know!
          >
          > Attached files:
          > 1. The NewsMLv1.0 dtd
          > 2. A sample news page I am trying to convert to xml using this dtd
          > 3. A jpg showing the NewsML dtd tree structure.
          >
          > Platform:
          > Mac OS 9.0.4
          > Quark v4.11
          > Avenue v1.0
          > 411 Fixit extension installed
          >
          > Method:
          > 1. File/New xml (opens new xml file dialogue box)
          > 2. Select custom.xmt
          > - choose NewsMLv1.0.dtd
          > - choose NewsML as root element
          > - Rule set in 'none' (no other options)
          > - click OK
          > 3. As no rule set is selected, Choose Edit/Tagging rules, select new
          set.
          > Use this rule set to define links between paragraph styles and dtd
          elements.
          >
          >
          > Problems:
          > 1. In rule set dialogue box, window showing dtd tree structure does
          not
          > reflect that indicated in the attached jpg illustration.
          > For example, Within the NewsML element should be 4 sub elements
          > (NewsEnvelope, Catalog, TopicSet, NewsItem). What actually appears is:
          > Catalog, TopicSet, (). NewsEnvelope appears within the unnamed ()
          element,
          > which is why I think Avenue.Quark is misreading the structure of the
          dtd.
          > 2. Strange, unnamed () elements appear at various points throughout
          the
          dtd
          > tree, a further example being the DataContent element which is within
          the
          > ContentItem element. This is a crucial problem as it means I cannot
          put
          any
          > actual content into the xml file.
          >
          >
          > It may be that in reading this, you immediately spot something that I
          am
          > doing wrong - in which case apologies for the 'dtd-mashing'
          accusations.
          > However I have followed the steps in the tutorial and can't see
          anything
          > obvious that I've missed. Please contact me if you need further
          information.
          >
          > cheers,
          > Paul Mulen
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >



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          To Post a message, send it to: newsml@...

          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: newsml-unsubscribe@...

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        • Jerry Johnson
          Daniel, Thanks for that rundown. It really cemented my understanding of the DTD definitions. Jerry Johnson jjohnson@lawyersweekly.com ... Removing the
          Message 4 of 9 , Aug 1 8:51 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            Daniel,

            Thanks for that rundown.

            It really cemented my understanding of the DTD definitions.

            Jerry Johnson
            jjohnson@...

            >>> daniel.rivers-moore@... 08/01/01 11:03AM >>>
            Removing the parentheses as you have done does indeed have consequences
            for the meaning of the DTD. That is, they make a difference between what
            document instance structures will or will not conform to the DTD.

            To go through your changes one by one:

            ======== NewsML ========
            FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , (NewsEnvelope ,
            NewsItem+ ))>
            TO: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , NewsEnvelope, NewsItem+)>

            This will make no difference. The meanings of the two are the same.

            In this case any document that conforms to your DTD will conform to
            NewsML, and vice versa.

            ======== NewsItem ========
            FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsItem (Comment* , Catalog? , Identification ,
            NewsManagement , (NewsComponent | Update+ | TopicSet )? )>
            TO: <!ELEMENT NewsItem (Comment* , Catalog? , Identification ,
            NewsManagement , NewsComponent , Update+, TopicSet? )>

            This DOES make a difference (and a significant one). The NewsML DTD
            means that there is optionally EITHER a single NewsComponent element, OR
            one or more Update elements, OR a single TopicSet element, but there
            cannot be a mix of NewsComponent, Update and TopicSet subelements. Your
            version makes the NewsComponent required (which it is not), makes Update
            required (which it is not), and allows NewsComponent, Update and
            TopicSet to occur together, which NewsML does not allow.

            In this case there will be no document that conforms both to your DTD
            and to NewsML.

            ======== NewsComponent ========
            FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsComponent (Comment* , Catalog? , TopicSet* , Role?
            ,
            BasisForChoice* , NewsLines? , AdministrativeMetadata? , RightsMetadata?
            ,
            DescriptiveMetadata? , Metadata* , ( (NewsItem | NewsItemRef )+ |
            NewsComponent+ | ContentItem+ )? )>
            TO: <!ELEMENT NewsComponent (Comment* , Catalog? , TopicSet* , Role? ,
            BasisForChoice* , NewsLines? , AdministrativeMetadata? , RightsMetadata?
            ,
            DescriptiveMetadata? , Metadata* , ContentItem+ )>

            This too is a significant change. You are requiring one or more
            ContentItem subelements, and not allowing NewsItem, NewsItemRef or
            NewsComponent. The NewsML DTD says that you may optionally have EITHER
            any number of NewsItem subelements or NewsItemRef subelements or a mix
            of the two, OR any number of NewsComponent subelements OR any number of
            ContentItem subelements, but you can't mix ContentItem subelements or
            Content Item subelements with each other or with NewsItem and
            NewsItemRef subelements.

            In this case, documents that conform to your DTD will confrom to the
            NewsML DTD, but not necessarily the other way round.

            ======== ContentItem ========
            FROM: <!ELEMENT ContentItem (Comment* , Catalog? , MediaType? , Format?
            ,
            MimeType? , Notation? , Characteristics? , (Encoding | DataContent )? )>
            TO: <!ELEMENT ContentItem (Comment* , Catalog? , MediaType? , Format? ,
            MimeType? , Notation? , Characteristics? , Encoding? , DataContent? )>

            Here, the NewsML DTD allows an optional Encoding or DataContent
            subelement, but not both. Your variant allows both to be present.

            In this case, the situation is the inverse of the previous one:
            documents that conform to the NewsML DTD will conform to yours, but not
            necessarily the other way round.


            You ask:
            * Is Avenue.Quark's inability to read the dtd a fault with the dtd
            itself?

            Answer - no. In the first case, the parentheses are not significant, but
            are not in error. In the other cases, they do make a difference to the
            meaning of the DTD, and cannot be removed.

            You might like to run these observations by the Avenue.Quark people and
            see if they have any further comments.

            Best regards

            Daniel Rivers-Moore
            Editor, NewsML v1.0


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...]
            Sent: 01 August 2001 15:17
            To: newsml@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [newsml] Avenue.quark


            In my ongoing efforts to get Avenue.Quark to create NewsML docs, I have
            been
            having a lot of difficulty getting Avenue to read the NewsML dtd
            correctly -
            it had a tendency to distort the NewsML tree structure and to name
            elements
            '()' (ie empty parentheses) rather than, for example, 'NewsComponent'. I
            have talked to tech support at Avenue.Quark (full response below) who
            have
            suggested that Avenue fails to import the dtd correctly because manner
            in
            which subelements are specified within elements. On their suggestion I
            have
            made the following changes to elements in the NewsML dtd which do indeed
            help Avenue.Quark to import it (almost) correctly:


            ======== NewsML ========
            FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , (NewsEnvelope ,
            NewsItem+ )
            )>
            TO: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , NewsEnvelope, NewsItem+)>


            ======== NewsItem ========
            FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsItem (Comment* , Catalog? , Identification ,
            NewsManagement , (NewsComponent | Update+ | TopicSet )? )>
            TO: <!ELEMENT NewsItem (Comment* , Catalog? , Identification ,
            NewsManagement , NewsComponent , Update+, TopicSet? )>


            ======== NewsComponent ========
            FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsComponent (Comment* , Catalog? , TopicSet* , Role?
            ,
            BasisForChoice* , NewsLines? , AdministrativeMetadata? , RightsMetadata?
            ,
            DescriptiveMetadata? , Metadata* , ( (NewsItem | NewsItemRef )+ |
            NewsComponent+ | ContentItem+ )? )>
            TO: <!ELEMENT NewsComponent (Comment* , Catalog? , TopicSet* , Role? ,
            BasisForChoice* , NewsLines? , AdministrativeMetadata? , RightsMetadata?
            ,
            DescriptiveMetadata? , Metadata* , ContentItem+ )>


            ======== ContentItem ========
            FROM: <!ELEMENT ContentItem (Comment* , Catalog? , MediaType? , Format?
            ,
            MimeType? , Notation? , Characteristics? , (Encoding | DataContent )? )>
            TO: <!ELEMENT ContentItem (Comment* , Catalog? , MediaType? , Format? ,
            MimeType? , Notation? , Characteristics? , Encoding? , DataContent? )>


            What I'd like to know is:
            * It is valid to edit the dtd in this way.
            * I am not an XML expert so am unsure of what implications these changes
            will have.
            * Will my Avenue.Quark xml documents still technically conform to NewsML
            and
            be exchangeable with other NewsML systems.
            * Is Avenue.Quark's inability to read the dtd a fault with the dtd
            itself?
            * the parentheses that have been removed - what did they do?


            Cheers,
            Paul Mullen
            (hopefully not the only person in the world trying to use Quark with
            NewsML)



            ============================================
            FULL RESPONSE FROM AVENUE.QUARK TECH SUPPORT
            ============================================

            Hi Paul,

            I've now had a chance to look at your files a little more in-depth, and
            have
            some information that I believe will help you with this issue. In
            regards to
            you previous question, I've not heard of any other customers using
            avenue.quark and the NewsML DTD at this point, though in looking into
            this
            issue it should make it easier to help other customers who choose to use
            this DTD.

            In examining your files, it seems that the problem is that the DTD you
            sent
            me (NewsMLv1.0.dtd) doesn't quite match the doctree.jpg file structure
            that
            you sent along with it. In the doctree.jpg file that you sent, it is
            defined
            that the NewsML element can contain the elements Catalog, TopicSet,
            NewsEnvelope, and NewsItem. However, in the DTD you sent, the
            subelements
            contained within NewsML contain other subelements, which are
            NewsEnvelope
            and NewsItem, illustrated in the DTD as follows:

            <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , (NewsEnvelope , NewsItem+ )
            )>

            I've found that it is the presence of this second set of subelements
            that
            result in the empty parentheses when editing Tagging Rule sets. When I
            made
            the following change to the DTD, it then would match the structure
            specified
            in the doctree.jpg file, and corrected the problem with Edit> Tagging
            Rules:

            <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , NewsEnvelope, NewsItem+)>

            This specifies that the NewsML element can contain zero or one
            occurrence of
            Catalog, zero or more occurrences of TopicSet, one occurrence of
            NewsEnvelope, and one or more occurrence of NewsItem, as listed in the
            text
            of the DTD.

            Please be aware, you might have to look into your DTD a little further,
            as
            I've found that this happens in at least one more place in your DTD as
            it is
            (under NewsItem). Also, I investigated this using XML Authority (which
            showed the DTD as avenue.quark did) as opposed to XML Spy. I'll look
            into
            this with a copy of XML Spy as well to see there are any differences in
            behavior between the two applications.

            I hope this information helps. If you have any other questions or
            concerns
            relating to this issue, please don't hesitate to contact me again.


            Regards,
            Greg Stretton
            Quark Technical Support



            -----Original Message-----
            From: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...]
            Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 5:35 AM
            To: avenue-user-support
            Subject: Re: NewsML docs


            Thanks Greg. I look forward to hearing from you. If I have any further
            info,
            I'll send it on. Have you heard of anyone else using Avenue.Quark with
            the
            NewsML dtd?

            Rgds,
            Paul




            > From: avenue-user-support <avenue-user-support@...>
            > Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:20:24 -0600
            > To: 'Paul Mullen' <paul@...>
            > Subject: RE: NewsML docs
            >
            > Hi Paul,
            >
            > Thanks for providing this information and your files. I've seen the
            problem
            > you described in your files, though I'll need to investigate this a
            little
            > further in order to determine the cause of this. I haven't been able
            to
            > immediately identify anything that you've been doing wrong, so
            hopefully
            > further examination into this will yield some good results. I'll let
            you
            > know my findings as soon as possible, and please let me know any other
            > pertinent information or findings you may have on this issue in the
            > meantime.
            >
            >
            > Regards,
            > Greg Stretton
            > Quark Technical Support
            >
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...]
            > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 6:15 AM
            > To: avenue-user-support@...
            > Subject: NewsML docs
            >
            >
            > Greg,
            >
            > Thanks for getting back to me - I appreciate that this may be a dtd
            problem
            > and would not therefore be something you cover. I have validated the
            dtd
            in
            > XMLspy (seemes OK) and it is also now an approved standard for the
            news
            > industry, published by the IPTC, so I'd be a little surprised if it
            was a
            > dtd issue - but you never know!
            >
            > Attached files:
            > 1. The NewsMLv1.0 dtd
            > 2. A sample news page I am trying to convert to xml using this dtd
            > 3. A jpg showing the NewsML dtd tree structure.
            >
            > Platform:
            > Mac OS 9.0.4
            > Quark v4.11
            > Avenue v1.0
            > 411 Fixit extension installed
            >
            > Method:
            > 1. File/New xml (opens new xml file dialogue box)
            > 2. Select custom.xmt
            > - choose NewsMLv1.0.dtd
            > - choose NewsML as root element
            > - Rule set in 'none' (no other options)
            > - click OK
            > 3. As no rule set is selected, Choose Edit/Tagging rules, select new
            set.
            > Use this rule set to define links between paragraph styles and dtd
            elements.
            >
            >
            > Problems:
            > 1. In rule set dialogue box, window showing dtd tree structure does
            not
            > reflect that indicated in the attached jpg illustration.
            > For example, Within the NewsML element should be 4 sub elements
            > (NewsEnvelope, Catalog, TopicSet, NewsItem). What actually appears is:
            > Catalog, TopicSet, (). NewsEnvelope appears within the unnamed ()
            element,
            > which is why I think Avenue.Quark is misreading the structure of the
            dtd.
            > 2. Strange, unnamed () elements appear at various points throughout
            the
            dtd
            > tree, a further example being the DataContent element which is within
            the
            > ContentItem element. This is a crucial problem as it means I cannot
            put
            any
            > actual content into the xml file.
            >
            >
            > It may be that in reading this, you immediately spot something that I
            am
            > doing wrong - in which case apologies for the 'dtd-mashing'
            accusations.
            > However I have followed the steps in the tutorial and can't see
            anything
            > obvious that I've missed. Please contact me if you need further
            information.
            >
            > cheers,
            > Paul Mulen
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >



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          • Paul Mullen
            No. It costs about £199 Good luck Paul
            Message 5 of 9 , Aug 1 9:45 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              No. It costs about £199

              Good luck
              Paul

              > From: "Cassio Prazeres" <cassio.prazeres@...>
              > Reply-To: newsml@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 11:52:38 -0300
              > To: <newsml@yahoogroups.com>
              > Subject: RES: [newsml] Avenue.quark
              >
              > Is Avenue.Quark free?
              >
              > -----Mensagem original-----
              > De: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...]
              > Enviada em: quarta-feira, 1 de agosto de 2001 11:17
              > Para: newsml@yahoogroups.com
              > Assunto: [newsml] Avenue.quark
              >
              >
              > In my ongoing efforts to get Avenue.Quark to create NewsML docs, I have been
              > having a lot of difficulty getting Avenue to read the NewsML dtd correctly -
              > it had a tendency to distort the NewsML tree structure and to name elements
              > '()' (ie empty parentheses) rather than, for example, 'NewsComponent'. I
              > have talked to tech support at Avenue.Quark (full response below) who have
              > suggested that Avenue fails to import the dtd correctly because manner in
              > which subelements are specified within elements. On their suggestion I have
              > made the following changes to elements in the NewsML dtd which do indeed
              > help Avenue.Quark to import it (almost) correctly:
              >
              >
              > ======== NewsML ========
              > FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , (NewsEnvelope , NewsItem+ )
              > )>
              > TO: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , NewsEnvelope, NewsItem+)>
              >
              >
              > ======== NewsItem ========
              > FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsItem (Comment* , Catalog? , Identification ,
              > NewsManagement , (NewsComponent | Update+ | TopicSet )? )>
              > TO: <!ELEMENT NewsItem (Comment* , Catalog? , Identification ,
              > NewsManagement , NewsComponent , Update+, TopicSet? )>
              >
              >
              > ======== NewsComponent ========
              > FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsComponent (Comment* , Catalog? , TopicSet* , Role? ,
              > BasisForChoice* , NewsLines? , AdministrativeMetadata? , RightsMetadata? ,
              > DescriptiveMetadata? , Metadata* , ( (NewsItem | NewsItemRef )+ |
              > NewsComponent+ | ContentItem+ )? )>
              > TO: <!ELEMENT NewsComponent (Comment* , Catalog? , TopicSet* , Role? ,
              > BasisForChoice* , NewsLines? , AdministrativeMetadata? , RightsMetadata? ,
              > DescriptiveMetadata? , Metadata* , ContentItem+ )>
              >
              >
              > ======== ContentItem ========
              > FROM: <!ELEMENT ContentItem (Comment* , Catalog? , MediaType? , Format? ,
              > MimeType? , Notation? , Characteristics? , (Encoding | DataContent )? )>
              > TO: <!ELEMENT ContentItem (Comment* , Catalog? , MediaType? , Format? ,
              > MimeType? , Notation? , Characteristics? , Encoding? , DataContent? )>
              >
              >
              > What I'd like to know is:
              > * It is valid to edit the dtd in this way.
              > * I am not an XML expert so am unsure of what implications these changes
              > will have.
              > * Will my Avenue.Quark xml documents still technically conform to NewsML and
              > be exchangeable with other NewsML systems.
              > * Is Avenue.Quark's inability to read the dtd a fault with the dtd itself?
              > * the parentheses that have been removed - what did they do?
              >
              >
              > Cheers,
              > Paul Mullen
              > (hopefully not the only person in the world trying to use Quark with NewsML)
              >
              >
              >
              > ============================================
              > FULL RESPONSE FROM AVENUE.QUARK TECH SUPPORT
              > ============================================
              >
              > Hi Paul,
              >
              > I've now had a chance to look at your files a little more in-depth, and have
              > some information that I believe will help you with this issue. In regards to
              > you previous question, I've not heard of any other customers using
              > avenue.quark and the NewsML DTD at this point, though in looking into this
              > issue it should make it easier to help other customers who choose to use
              > this DTD.
              >
              > In examining your files, it seems that the problem is that the DTD you sent
              > me (NewsMLv1.0.dtd) doesn't quite match the doctree.jpg file structure that
              > you sent along with it. In the doctree.jpg file that you sent, it is defined
              > that the NewsML element can contain the elements Catalog, TopicSet,
              > NewsEnvelope, and NewsItem. However, in the DTD you sent, the subelements
              > contained within NewsML contain other subelements, which are NewsEnvelope
              > and NewsItem, illustrated in the DTD as follows:
              >
              > <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , (NewsEnvelope , NewsItem+ ) )>
              >
              > I've found that it is the presence of this second set of subelements that
              > result in the empty parentheses when editing Tagging Rule sets. When I made
              > the following change to the DTD, it then would match the structure specified
              > in the doctree.jpg file, and corrected the problem with Edit> Tagging Rules:
              >
              > <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , NewsEnvelope, NewsItem+)>
              >
              > This specifies that the NewsML element can contain zero or one occurrence of
              > Catalog, zero or more occurrences of TopicSet, one occurrence of
              > NewsEnvelope, and one or more occurrence of NewsItem, as listed in the text
              > of the DTD.
              >
              > Please be aware, you might have to look into your DTD a little further, as
              > I've found that this happens in at least one more place in your DTD as it is
              > (under NewsItem). Also, I investigated this using XML Authority (which
              > showed the DTD as avenue.quark did) as opposed to XML Spy. I'll look into
              > this with a copy of XML Spy as well to see there are any differences in
              > behavior between the two applications.
              >
              > I hope this information helps. If you have any other questions or concerns
              > relating to this issue, please don't hesitate to contact me again.
              >
              >
              > Regards,
              > Greg Stretton
              > Quark Technical Support
              >
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...]
              > Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 5:35 AM
              > To: avenue-user-support
              > Subject: Re: NewsML docs
              >
              >
              > Thanks Greg. I look forward to hearing from you. If I have any further info,
              > I'll send it on. Have you heard of anyone else using Avenue.Quark with the
              > NewsML dtd?
              >
              > Rgds,
              > Paul
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >> From: avenue-user-support <avenue-user-support@...>
              >> Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:20:24 -0600
              >> To: 'Paul Mullen' <paul@...>
              >> Subject: RE: NewsML docs
              >>
              >> Hi Paul,
              >>
              >> Thanks for providing this information and your files. I've seen the
              > problem
              >> you described in your files, though I'll need to investigate this a little
              >> further in order to determine the cause of this. I haven't been able to
              >> immediately identify anything that you've been doing wrong, so hopefully
              >> further examination into this will yield some good results. I'll let you
              >> know my findings as soon as possible, and please let me know any other
              >> pertinent information or findings you may have on this issue in the
              >> meantime.
              >>
              >>
              >> Regards,
              >> Greg Stretton
              >> Quark Technical Support
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> -----Original Message-----
              >> From: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...]
              >> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 6:15 AM
              >> To: avenue-user-support@...
              >> Subject: NewsML docs
              >>
              >>
              >> Greg,
              >>
              >> Thanks for getting back to me - I appreciate that this may be a dtd
              > problem
              >> and would not therefore be something you cover. I have validated the dtd
              > in
              >> XMLspy (seemes OK) and it is also now an approved standard for the news
              >> industry, published by the IPTC, so I'd be a little surprised if it was a
              >> dtd issue - but you never know!
              >>
              >> Attached files:
              >> 1. The NewsMLv1.0 dtd
              >> 2. A sample news page I am trying to convert to xml using this dtd
              >> 3. A jpg showing the NewsML dtd tree structure.
              >>
              >> Platform:
              >> Mac OS 9.0.4
              >> Quark v4.11
              >> Avenue v1.0
              >> 411 Fixit extension installed
              >>
              >> Method:
              >> 1. File/New xml (opens new xml file dialogue box)
              >> 2. Select custom.xmt
              >> - choose NewsMLv1.0.dtd
              >> - choose NewsML as root element
              >> - Rule set in 'none' (no other options)
              >> - click OK
              >> 3. As no rule set is selected, Choose Edit/Tagging rules, select new set.
              >> Use this rule set to define links between paragraph styles and dtd
              > elements.
              >>
              >>
              >> Problems:
              >> 1. In rule set dialogue box, window showing dtd tree structure does not
              >> reflect that indicated in the attached jpg illustration.
              >> For example, Within the NewsML element should be 4 sub elements
              >> (NewsEnvelope, Catalog, TopicSet, NewsItem). What actually appears is:
              >> Catalog, TopicSet, (). NewsEnvelope appears within the unnamed () element,
              >> which is why I think Avenue.Quark is misreading the structure of the dtd.
              >> 2. Strange, unnamed () elements appear at various points throughout the
              > dtd
              >> tree, a further example being the DataContent element which is within the
              >> ContentItem element. This is a crucial problem as it means I cannot put
              > any
              >> actual content into the xml file.
              >>
              >>
              >> It may be that in reading this, you immediately spot something that I am
              >> doing wrong - in which case apologies for the 'dtd-mashing' accusations.
              >> However I have followed the steps in the tutorial and can't see anything
              >> obvious that I've missed. Please contact me if you need further
              > information.
              >>
              >> cheers,
              >> Paul Mulen
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > To Post a message, send it to: newsml@...
              >
              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: newsml-unsubscribe@...
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > To Post a message, send it to: newsml@...
              >
              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: newsml-unsubscribe@...
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              >
            • Daniel Rivers-Moore
              Error correction (Oops again!): In the description of ======== NewsComponent ======== below, I wrote: ... but you can t mix ContentItem subelements or Content
              Message 6 of 9 , Aug 1 10:00 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                Error correction (Oops again!):

                In the description of ======== NewsComponent ======== below, I wrote:

                "... but you can't mix ContentItem subelements or
                Content Item subelements with each other or with NewsItem and
                NewsItemRef subelements."

                This should read
                "... but you can't mix NewsComponent subelements or
                ContentItem subelements with each other or with NewsItem and
                NewsItemRef subelements."

                Daniel

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Daniel Rivers-Moore
                Sent: 01 August 2001 16:03
                To: newsml@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [newsml] Avenue.quark


                Removing the parentheses as you have done does indeed have consequences
                for the meaning of the DTD. That is, they make a difference between what
                document instance structures will or will not conform to the DTD.

                To go through your changes one by one:

                ======== NewsML ========
                FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , (NewsEnvelope ,
                NewsItem+ ))>
                TO: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , NewsEnvelope, NewsItem+)>

                This will make no difference. The meanings of the two are the same.

                In this case any document that conforms to your DTD will conform to
                NewsML, and vice versa.

                ======== NewsItem ========
                FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsItem (Comment* , Catalog? , Identification ,
                NewsManagement , (NewsComponent | Update+ | TopicSet )? )>
                TO: <!ELEMENT NewsItem (Comment* , Catalog? , Identification ,
                NewsManagement , NewsComponent , Update+, TopicSet? )>

                This DOES make a difference (and a significant one). The NewsML DTD
                means that there is optionally EITHER a single NewsComponent element, OR
                one or more Update elements, OR a single TopicSet element, but there
                cannot be a mix of NewsComponent, Update and TopicSet subelements. Your
                version makes the NewsComponent required (which it is not), makes Update
                required (which it is not), and allows NewsComponent, Update and
                TopicSet to occur together, which NewsML does not allow.

                In this case there will be no document that conforms both to your DTD
                and to NewsML.

                ======== NewsComponent ========
                FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsComponent (Comment* , Catalog? , TopicSet* , Role?
                ,
                BasisForChoice* , NewsLines? , AdministrativeMetadata? , RightsMetadata?
                ,
                DescriptiveMetadata? , Metadata* , ( (NewsItem | NewsItemRef )+ |
                NewsComponent+ | ContentItem+ )? )>
                TO: <!ELEMENT NewsComponent (Comment* , Catalog? , TopicSet* , Role? ,
                BasisForChoice* , NewsLines? , AdministrativeMetadata? , RightsMetadata?
                ,
                DescriptiveMetadata? , Metadata* , ContentItem+ )>

                This too is a significant change. You are requiring one or more
                ContentItem subelements, and not allowing NewsItem, NewsItemRef or
                NewsComponent. The NewsML DTD says that you may optionally have EITHER
                any number of NewsItem subelements or NewsItemRef subelements or a mix
                of the two, OR any number of NewsComponent subelements OR any number of
                ContentItem subelements, but you can't mix ContentItem subelements or
                Content Item subelements with each other or with NewsItem and
                NewsItemRef subelements.

                In this case, documents that conform to your DTD will confrom to the
                NewsML DTD, but not necessarily the other way round.

                ======== ContentItem ========
                FROM: <!ELEMENT ContentItem (Comment* , Catalog? , MediaType? , Format?
                ,
                MimeType? , Notation? , Characteristics? , (Encoding | DataContent )? )>
                TO: <!ELEMENT ContentItem (Comment* , Catalog? , MediaType? , Format? ,
                MimeType? , Notation? , Characteristics? , Encoding? , DataContent? )>

                Here, the NewsML DTD allows an optional Encoding or DataContent
                subelement, but not both. Your variant allows both to be present.

                In this case, the situation is the inverse of the previous one:
                documents that conform to the NewsML DTD will conform to yours, but not
                necessarily the other way round.


                You ask:
                * Is Avenue.Quark's inability to read the dtd a fault with the dtd
                itself?

                Answer - no. In the first case, the parentheses are not significant, but
                are not in error. In the other cases, they do make a difference to the
                meaning of the DTD, and cannot be removed.

                You might like to run these observations by the Avenue.Quark people and
                see if they have any further comments.

                Best regards

                Daniel Rivers-Moore
                Editor, NewsML v1.0


                -----Original Message-----
                From: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...]
                Sent: 01 August 2001 15:17
                To: newsml@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [newsml] Avenue.quark


                In my ongoing efforts to get Avenue.Quark to create NewsML docs, I have
                been
                having a lot of difficulty getting Avenue to read the NewsML dtd
                correctly -
                it had a tendency to distort the NewsML tree structure and to name
                elements
                '()' (ie empty parentheses) rather than, for example, 'NewsComponent'. I
                have talked to tech support at Avenue.Quark (full response below) who
                have
                suggested that Avenue fails to import the dtd correctly because manner
                in
                which subelements are specified within elements. On their suggestion I
                have
                made the following changes to elements in the NewsML dtd which do indeed
                help Avenue.Quark to import it (almost) correctly:


                ======== NewsML ========
                FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , (NewsEnvelope ,
                NewsItem+ )
                )>
                TO: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , NewsEnvelope, NewsItem+)>


                ======== NewsItem ========
                FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsItem (Comment* , Catalog? , Identification ,
                NewsManagement , (NewsComponent | Update+ | TopicSet )? )>
                TO: <!ELEMENT NewsItem (Comment* , Catalog? , Identification ,
                NewsManagement , NewsComponent , Update+, TopicSet? )>


                ======== NewsComponent ========
                FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsComponent (Comment* , Catalog? , TopicSet* , Role?
                ,
                BasisForChoice* , NewsLines? , AdministrativeMetadata? , RightsMetadata?
                ,
                DescriptiveMetadata? , Metadata* , ( (NewsItem | NewsItemRef )+ |
                NewsComponent+ | ContentItem+ )? )>
                TO: <!ELEMENT NewsComponent (Comment* , Catalog? , TopicSet* , Role? ,
                BasisForChoice* , NewsLines? , AdministrativeMetadata? , RightsMetadata?
                ,
                DescriptiveMetadata? , Metadata* , ContentItem+ )>


                ======== ContentItem ========
                FROM: <!ELEMENT ContentItem (Comment* , Catalog? , MediaType? , Format?
                ,
                MimeType? , Notation? , Characteristics? , (Encoding | DataContent )? )>
                TO: <!ELEMENT ContentItem (Comment* , Catalog? , MediaType? , Format? ,
                MimeType? , Notation? , Characteristics? , Encoding? , DataContent? )>


                What I'd like to know is:
                * It is valid to edit the dtd in this way.
                * I am not an XML expert so am unsure of what implications these changes
                will have.
                * Will my Avenue.Quark xml documents still technically conform to NewsML
                and
                be exchangeable with other NewsML systems.
                * Is Avenue.Quark's inability to read the dtd a fault with the dtd
                itself?
                * the parentheses that have been removed - what did they do?


                Cheers,
                Paul Mullen
                (hopefully not the only person in the world trying to use Quark with
                NewsML)



                ============================================
                FULL RESPONSE FROM AVENUE.QUARK TECH SUPPORT
                ============================================

                Hi Paul,

                I've now had a chance to look at your files a little more in-depth, and
                have
                some information that I believe will help you with this issue. In
                regards to
                you previous question, I've not heard of any other customers using
                avenue.quark and the NewsML DTD at this point, though in looking into
                this
                issue it should make it easier to help other customers who choose to use
                this DTD.

                In examining your files, it seems that the problem is that the DTD you
                sent
                me (NewsMLv1.0.dtd) doesn't quite match the doctree.jpg file structure
                that
                you sent along with it. In the doctree.jpg file that you sent, it is
                defined
                that the NewsML element can contain the elements Catalog, TopicSet,
                NewsEnvelope, and NewsItem. However, in the DTD you sent, the
                subelements
                contained within NewsML contain other subelements, which are
                NewsEnvelope
                and NewsItem, illustrated in the DTD as follows:

                <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , (NewsEnvelope , NewsItem+ )
                )>

                I've found that it is the presence of this second set of subelements
                that
                result in the empty parentheses when editing Tagging Rule sets. When I
                made
                the following change to the DTD, it then would match the structure
                specified
                in the doctree.jpg file, and corrected the problem with Edit> Tagging
                Rules:

                <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , NewsEnvelope, NewsItem+)>

                This specifies that the NewsML element can contain zero or one
                occurrence of
                Catalog, zero or more occurrences of TopicSet, one occurrence of
                NewsEnvelope, and one or more occurrence of NewsItem, as listed in the
                text
                of the DTD.

                Please be aware, you might have to look into your DTD a little further,
                as
                I've found that this happens in at least one more place in your DTD as
                it is
                (under NewsItem). Also, I investigated this using XML Authority (which
                showed the DTD as avenue.quark did) as opposed to XML Spy. I'll look
                into
                this with a copy of XML Spy as well to see there are any differences in
                behavior between the two applications.

                I hope this information helps. If you have any other questions or
                concerns
                relating to this issue, please don't hesitate to contact me again.


                Regards,
                Greg Stretton
                Quark Technical Support



                -----Original Message-----
                From: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...]
                Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 5:35 AM
                To: avenue-user-support
                Subject: Re: NewsML docs


                Thanks Greg. I look forward to hearing from you. If I have any further
                info,
                I'll send it on. Have you heard of anyone else using Avenue.Quark with
                the
                NewsML dtd?

                Rgds,
                Paul




                > From: avenue-user-support <avenue-user-support@...>
                > Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:20:24 -0600
                > To: 'Paul Mullen' <paul@...>
                > Subject: RE: NewsML docs
                >
                > Hi Paul,
                >
                > Thanks for providing this information and your files. I've seen the
                problem
                > you described in your files, though I'll need to investigate this a
                little
                > further in order to determine the cause of this. I haven't been able
                to
                > immediately identify anything that you've been doing wrong, so
                hopefully
                > further examination into this will yield some good results. I'll let
                you
                > know my findings as soon as possible, and please let me know any other
                > pertinent information or findings you may have on this issue in the
                > meantime.
                >
                >
                > Regards,
                > Greg Stretton
                > Quark Technical Support
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...]
                > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 6:15 AM
                > To: avenue-user-support@...
                > Subject: NewsML docs
                >
                >
                > Greg,
                >
                > Thanks for getting back to me - I appreciate that this may be a dtd
                problem
                > and would not therefore be something you cover. I have validated the
                dtd
                in
                > XMLspy (seemes OK) and it is also now an approved standard for the
                news
                > industry, published by the IPTC, so I'd be a little surprised if it
                was a
                > dtd issue - but you never know!
                >
                > Attached files:
                > 1. The NewsMLv1.0 dtd
                > 2. A sample news page I am trying to convert to xml using this dtd
                > 3. A jpg showing the NewsML dtd tree structure.
                >
                > Platform:
                > Mac OS 9.0.4
                > Quark v4.11
                > Avenue v1.0
                > 411 Fixit extension installed
                >
                > Method:
                > 1. File/New xml (opens new xml file dialogue box)
                > 2. Select custom.xmt
                > - choose NewsMLv1.0.dtd
                > - choose NewsML as root element
                > - Rule set in 'none' (no other options)
                > - click OK
                > 3. As no rule set is selected, Choose Edit/Tagging rules, select new
                set.
                > Use this rule set to define links between paragraph styles and dtd
                elements.
                >
                >
                > Problems:
                > 1. In rule set dialogue box, window showing dtd tree structure does
                not
                > reflect that indicated in the attached jpg illustration.
                > For example, Within the NewsML element should be 4 sub elements
                > (NewsEnvelope, Catalog, TopicSet, NewsItem). What actually appears is:
                > Catalog, TopicSet, (). NewsEnvelope appears within the unnamed ()
                element,
                > which is why I think Avenue.Quark is misreading the structure of the
                dtd.
                > 2. Strange, unnamed () elements appear at various points throughout
                the
                dtd
                > tree, a further example being the DataContent element which is within
                the
                > ContentItem element. This is a crucial problem as it means I cannot
                put
                any
                > actual content into the xml file.
                >
                >
                > It may be that in reading this, you immediately spot something that I
                am
                > doing wrong - in which case apologies for the 'dtd-mashing'
                accusations.
                > However I have followed the steps in the tutorial and can't see
                anything
                > obvious that I've missed. Please contact me if you need further
                information.
                >
                > cheers,
                > Paul Mulen
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                To Post a message, send it to: newsml@...

                To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: newsml-unsubscribe@...

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              • David Allen
                Notwithstanding efforts to bend NewsML to work with a new product please note that the published DTD is the definitive version. If any other version is used
                Message 7 of 9 , Aug 2 1:32 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Notwithstanding efforts to "bend" NewsML to work with a new product
                  please note that the published DTD is the definitive version. If any
                  other version is used by a third party then it must not be called
                  NewsML. We have protected NewsML under a Trade Mark and will defend
                  this.

                  I suggest Quark are pressed to fix their product!
                  David Allen
                  MD IPTC

                  Jerry Johnson wrote:
                  >
                  > Daniel,
                  >
                  > Thanks for that rundown.
                  >
                  > It really cemented my understanding of the DTD definitions.
                  >
                  > Jerry Johnson
                  > jjohnson@...
                  >
                  > >>> daniel.rivers-moore@... 08/01/01 11:03AM >>>
                  > Removing the parentheses as you have done does indeed have consequences
                  > for the meaning of the DTD. That is, they make a difference between what
                  > document instance structures will or will not conform to the DTD.
                  >
                  > To go through your changes one by one:
                  >
                  > ======== NewsML ========
                  > FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , (NewsEnvelope ,
                  > NewsItem+ ))>
                  > TO: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , NewsEnvelope, NewsItem+)>
                  >
                  > This will make no difference. The meanings of the two are the same.
                  >
                  > In this case any document that conforms to your DTD will conform to
                  > NewsML, and vice versa.
                  >
                  > ======== NewsItem ========
                  > FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsItem (Comment* , Catalog? , Identification ,
                  > NewsManagement , (NewsComponent | Update+ | TopicSet )? )>
                  > TO: <!ELEMENT NewsItem (Comment* , Catalog? , Identification ,
                  > NewsManagement , NewsComponent , Update+, TopicSet? )>
                  >
                  > This DOES make a difference (and a significant one). The NewsML DTD
                  > means that there is optionally EITHER a single NewsComponent element, OR
                  > one or more Update elements, OR a single TopicSet element, but there
                  > cannot be a mix of NewsComponent, Update and TopicSet subelements. Your
                  > version makes the NewsComponent required (which it is not), makes Update
                  > required (which it is not), and allows NewsComponent, Update and
                  > TopicSet to occur together, which NewsML does not allow.
                  >
                  > In this case there will be no document that conforms both to your DTD
                  > and to NewsML.
                  >
                  > ======== NewsComponent ========
                  > FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsComponent (Comment* , Catalog? , TopicSet* , Role?
                  > ,
                  > BasisForChoice* , NewsLines? , AdministrativeMetadata? , RightsMetadata?
                  > ,
                  > DescriptiveMetadata? , Metadata* , ( (NewsItem | NewsItemRef )+ |
                  > NewsComponent+ | ContentItem+ )? )>
                  > TO: <!ELEMENT NewsComponent (Comment* , Catalog? , TopicSet* , Role? ,
                  > BasisForChoice* , NewsLines? , AdministrativeMetadata? , RightsMetadata?
                  > ,
                  > DescriptiveMetadata? , Metadata* , ContentItem+ )>
                  >
                  > This too is a significant change. You are requiring one or more
                  > ContentItem subelements, and not allowing NewsItem, NewsItemRef or
                  > NewsComponent. The NewsML DTD says that you may optionally have EITHER
                  > any number of NewsItem subelements or NewsItemRef subelements or a mix
                  > of the two, OR any number of NewsComponent subelements OR any number of
                  > ContentItem subelements, but you can't mix ContentItem subelements or
                  > Content Item subelements with each other or with NewsItem and
                  > NewsItemRef subelements.
                  >
                  > In this case, documents that conform to your DTD will confrom to the
                  > NewsML DTD, but not necessarily the other way round.
                  >
                  > ======== ContentItem ========
                  > FROM: <!ELEMENT ContentItem (Comment* , Catalog? , MediaType? , Format?
                  > ,
                  > MimeType? , Notation? , Characteristics? , (Encoding | DataContent )? )>
                  > TO: <!ELEMENT ContentItem (Comment* , Catalog? , MediaType? , Format? ,
                  > MimeType? , Notation? , Characteristics? , Encoding? , DataContent? )>
                  >
                  > Here, the NewsML DTD allows an optional Encoding or DataContent
                  > subelement, but not both. Your variant allows both to be present.
                  >
                  > In this case, the situation is the inverse of the previous one:
                  > documents that conform to the NewsML DTD will conform to yours, but not
                  > necessarily the other way round.
                  >
                  > You ask:
                  > * Is Avenue.Quark's inability to read the dtd a fault with the dtd
                  > itself?
                  >
                  > Answer - no. In the first case, the parentheses are not significant, but
                  > are not in error. In the other cases, they do make a difference to the
                  > meaning of the DTD, and cannot be removed.
                  >
                  > You might like to run these observations by the Avenue.Quark people and
                  > see if they have any further comments.
                  >
                  > Best regards
                  >
                  > Daniel Rivers-Moore
                  > Editor, NewsML v1.0
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...]
                  > Sent: 01 August 2001 15:17
                  > To: newsml@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [newsml] Avenue.quark
                  >
                  > In my ongoing efforts to get Avenue.Quark to create NewsML docs, I have
                  > been
                  > having a lot of difficulty getting Avenue to read the NewsML dtd
                  > correctly -
                  > it had a tendency to distort the NewsML tree structure and to name
                  > elements
                  > '()' (ie empty parentheses) rather than, for example, 'NewsComponent'. I
                  > have talked to tech support at Avenue.Quark (full response below) who
                  > have
                  > suggested that Avenue fails to import the dtd correctly because manner
                  > in
                  > which subelements are specified within elements. On their suggestion I
                  > have
                  > made the following changes to elements in the NewsML dtd which do indeed
                  > help Avenue.Quark to import it (almost) correctly:
                  >
                  > ======== NewsML ========
                  > FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , (NewsEnvelope ,
                  > NewsItem+ )
                  > )>
                  > TO: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , NewsEnvelope, NewsItem+)>
                  >
                  > ======== NewsItem ========
                  > FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsItem (Comment* , Catalog? , Identification ,
                  > NewsManagement , (NewsComponent | Update+ | TopicSet )? )>
                  > TO: <!ELEMENT NewsItem (Comment* , Catalog? , Identification ,
                  > NewsManagement , NewsComponent , Update+, TopicSet? )>
                  >
                  > ======== NewsComponent ========
                  > FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsComponent (Comment* , Catalog? , TopicSet* , Role?
                  > ,
                  > BasisForChoice* , NewsLines? , AdministrativeMetadata? , RightsMetadata?
                  > ,
                  > DescriptiveMetadata? , Metadata* , ( (NewsItem | NewsItemRef )+ |
                  > NewsComponent+ | ContentItem+ )? )>
                  > TO: <!ELEMENT NewsComponent (Comment* , Catalog? , TopicSet* , Role? ,
                  > BasisForChoice* , NewsLines? , AdministrativeMetadata? , RightsMetadata?
                  > ,
                  > DescriptiveMetadata? , Metadata* , ContentItem+ )>
                  >
                  > ======== ContentItem ========
                  > FROM: <!ELEMENT ContentItem (Comment* , Catalog? , MediaType? , Format?
                  > ,
                  > MimeType? , Notation? , Characteristics? , (Encoding | DataContent )? )>
                  > TO: <!ELEMENT ContentItem (Comment* , Catalog? , MediaType? , Format? ,
                  > MimeType? , Notation? , Characteristics? , Encoding? , DataContent? )>
                  >
                  > What I'd like to know is:
                  > * It is valid to edit the dtd in this way.
                  > * I am not an XML expert so am unsure of what implications these changes
                  > will have.
                  > * Will my Avenue.Quark xml documents still technically conform to NewsML
                  > and
                  > be exchangeable with other NewsML systems.
                  > * Is Avenue.Quark's inability to read the dtd a fault with the dtd
                  > itself?
                  > * the parentheses that have been removed - what did they do?
                  >
                  > Cheers,
                  > Paul Mullen
                  > (hopefully not the only person in the world trying to use Quark with
                  > NewsML)
                  >
                  > ============================================
                  > FULL RESPONSE FROM AVENUE.QUARK TECH SUPPORT
                  > ============================================
                  >
                  > Hi Paul,
                  >
                  > I've now had a chance to look at your files a little more in-depth, and
                  > have
                  > some information that I believe will help you with this issue. In
                  > regards to
                  > you previous question, I've not heard of any other customers using
                  > avenue.quark and the NewsML DTD at this point, though in looking into
                  > this
                  > issue it should make it easier to help other customers who choose to use
                  > this DTD.
                  >
                  > In examining your files, it seems that the problem is that the DTD you
                  > sent
                  > me (NewsMLv1.0.dtd) doesn't quite match the doctree.jpg file structure
                  > that
                  > you sent along with it. In the doctree.jpg file that you sent, it is
                  > defined
                  > that the NewsML element can contain the elements Catalog, TopicSet,
                  > NewsEnvelope, and NewsItem. However, in the DTD you sent, the
                  > subelements
                  > contained within NewsML contain other subelements, which are
                  > NewsEnvelope
                  > and NewsItem, illustrated in the DTD as follows:
                  >
                  > <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , (NewsEnvelope , NewsItem+ )
                  > )>
                  >
                  > I've found that it is the presence of this second set of subelements
                  > that
                  > result in the empty parentheses when editing Tagging Rule sets. When I
                  > made
                  > the following change to the DTD, it then would match the structure
                  > specified
                  > in the doctree.jpg file, and corrected the problem with Edit> Tagging
                  > Rules:
                  >
                  > <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , NewsEnvelope, NewsItem+)>
                  >
                  > This specifies that the NewsML element can contain zero or one
                  > occurrence of
                  > Catalog, zero or more occurrences of TopicSet, one occurrence of
                  > NewsEnvelope, and one or more occurrence of NewsItem, as listed in the
                  > text
                  > of the DTD.
                  >
                  > Please be aware, you might have to look into your DTD a little further,
                  > as
                  > I've found that this happens in at least one more place in your DTD as
                  > it is
                  > (under NewsItem). Also, I investigated this using XML Authority (which
                  > showed the DTD as avenue.quark did) as opposed to XML Spy. I'll look
                  > into
                  > this with a copy of XML Spy as well to see there are any differences in
                  > behavior between the two applications.
                  >
                  > I hope this information helps. If you have any other questions or
                  > concerns
                  > relating to this issue, please don't hesitate to contact me again.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  > Greg Stretton
                  > Quark Technical Support
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...]
                  > Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 5:35 AM
                  > To: avenue-user-support
                  > Subject: Re: NewsML docs
                  >
                  > Thanks Greg. I look forward to hearing from you. If I have any further
                  > info,
                  > I'll send it on. Have you heard of anyone else using Avenue.Quark with
                  > the
                  > NewsML dtd?
                  >
                  > Rgds,
                  > Paul
                  >
                  > > From: avenue-user-support <avenue-user-support@...>
                  > > Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:20:24 -0600
                  > > To: 'Paul Mullen' <paul@...>
                  > > Subject: RE: NewsML docs
                  > >
                  > > Hi Paul,
                  > >
                  > > Thanks for providing this information and your files. I've seen the
                  > problem
                  > > you described in your files, though I'll need to investigate this a
                  > little
                  > > further in order to determine the cause of this. I haven't been able
                  > to
                  > > immediately identify anything that you've been doing wrong, so
                  > hopefully
                  > > further examination into this will yield some good results. I'll let
                  > you
                  > > know my findings as soon as possible, and please let me know any other
                  > > pertinent information or findings you may have on this issue in the
                  > > meantime.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Regards,
                  > > Greg Stretton
                  > > Quark Technical Support
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...]
                  > > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 6:15 AM
                  > > To: avenue-user-support@...
                  > > Subject: NewsML docs
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Greg,
                  > >
                  > > Thanks for getting back to me - I appreciate that this may be a dtd
                  > problem
                  > > and would not therefore be something you cover. I have validated the
                  > dtd
                  > in
                  > > XMLspy (seemes OK) and it is also now an approved standard for the
                  > news
                  > > industry, published by the IPTC, so I'd be a little surprised if it
                  > was a
                  > > dtd issue - but you never know!
                  > >
                  > > Attached files:
                  > > 1. The NewsMLv1.0 dtd
                  > > 2. A sample news page I am trying to convert to xml using this dtd
                  > > 3. A jpg showing the NewsML dtd tree structure.
                  > >
                  > > Platform:
                  > > Mac OS 9.0.4
                  > > Quark v4.11
                  > > Avenue v1.0
                  > > 411 Fixit extension installed
                  > >
                  > > Method:
                  > > 1. File/New xml (opens new xml file dialogue box)
                  > > 2. Select custom.xmt
                  > > - choose NewsMLv1.0.dtd
                  > > - choose NewsML as root element
                  > > - Rule set in 'none' (no other options)
                  > > - click OK
                  > > 3. As no rule set is selected, Choose Edit/Tagging rules, select new
                  > set.
                  > > Use this rule set to define links between paragraph styles and dtd
                  > elements.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Problems:
                  > > 1. In rule set dialogue box, window showing dtd tree structure does
                  > not
                  > > reflect that indicated in the attached jpg illustration.
                  > > For example, Within the NewsML element should be 4 sub elements
                  > > (NewsEnvelope, Catalog, TopicSet, NewsItem). What actually appears is:
                  > > Catalog, TopicSet, (). NewsEnvelope appears within the unnamed ()
                  > element,
                  > > which is why I think Avenue.Quark is misreading the structure of the
                  > dtd.
                  > > 2. Strange, unnamed () elements appear at various points throughout
                  > the
                  > dtd
                  > > tree, a further example being the DataContent element which is within
                  > the
                  > > ContentItem element. This is a crucial problem as it means I cannot
                  > put
                  > any
                  > > actual content into the xml file.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > It may be that in reading this, you immediately spot something that I
                  > am
                  > > doing wrong - in which case apologies for the 'dtd-mashing'
                  > accusations.
                  > > However I have followed the steps in the tutorial and can't see
                  > anything
                  > > obvious that I've missed. Please contact me if you need further
                  > information.
                  > >
                  > > cheers,
                  > > Paul Mulen
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > To Post a message, send it to: newsml@...
                  >
                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: newsml-unsubscribe@...
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  > To Post a message, send it to: newsml@...
                  >
                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: newsml-unsubscribe@...
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  > To Post a message, send it to: newsml@...
                  >
                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: newsml-unsubscribe@...
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                  --
                  International Press Telecommunications Council
                  Working to improve the efficiency of News exchange.
                  Visit our Web Site at http://www.iptc.org
                • Paul Mullen
                  Daniel,Thanks for this explanation - extremely helpful. Quark Support only suggested making the first change to the NewsML dtd which, as you point out, makes
                  Message 8 of 9 , Aug 9 1:57 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Daniel,

                    Thanks for this explanation - extremely helpful. Quark Support only
                    suggested making the first change to the NewsML dtd which, as you point out,
                    makes no difference. However they did point out that the problem with
                    Avenue.Quark reading items in parentheses occurred at several points
                    throughout the dtd. As I result of this, I edited the dtd at the point where
                    this was occurring to establish whether this would help Avenue to import the
                    dtd successfully. Funnily enough, it did exactly that, but also caused the
                    fundamental changes to the dtd meaning and structure that you have pointed
                    out.

                    So, to be fair to Quark support, the major changes to the dtd are a result
                    of my crude hacking rather than their direct recommendations. (their full
                    response, plus the referred-to jpg of the dtd structure - taken from the
                    IPTC site - is attached for your info).

                    However, the fact remains that Avenue.quark is unable to import the dtd
                    correctly and has particular difficulty with elements or attributes
                    specified within parentheses. Therefore - and I suspect the answer to this
                    is a resounding 'no' - is there anyway of expressing the same meaning and
                    structure within the dtd, but without using parentheses?

                    I have forwarded your response to Quark support, as it seems to me that it
                    is a major failing of the product that it does not support what is likely to
                    be a widely-adopted standard amongst their customer base. I will forward any
                    further response back to you.

                    Many thanks,
                    Paul Mullen



                    > From: "Daniel Rivers-Moore" <daniel.rivers-moore@...>
                    > Reply-To: newsml@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 16:03:08 +0100
                    > To: <newsml@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Subject: RE: [newsml] Avenue.quark
                    >
                    > Removing the parentheses as you have done does indeed have consequences
                    > for the meaning of the DTD. That is, they make a difference between what
                    > document instance structures will or will not conform to the DTD.
                    >
                    > To go through your changes one by one:
                    >
                    > ======== NewsML ========
                    > FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , (NewsEnvelope ,
                    > NewsItem+ ))>
                    > TO: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , NewsEnvelope, NewsItem+)>
                    >
                    > This will make no difference. The meanings of the two are the same.
                    >
                    > In this case any document that conforms to your DTD will conform to
                    > NewsML, and vice versa.
                    >
                    > ======== NewsItem ========
                    > FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsItem (Comment* , Catalog? , Identification ,
                    > NewsManagement , (NewsComponent | Update+ | TopicSet )? )>
                    > TO: <!ELEMENT NewsItem (Comment* , Catalog? , Identification ,
                    > NewsManagement , NewsComponent , Update+, TopicSet? )>
                    >
                    > This DOES make a difference (and a significant one). The NewsML DTD
                    > means that there is optionally EITHER a single NewsComponent element, OR
                    > one or more Update elements, OR a single TopicSet element, but there
                    > cannot be a mix of NewsComponent, Update and TopicSet subelements. Your
                    > version makes the NewsComponent required (which it is not), makes Update
                    > required (which it is not), and allows NewsComponent, Update and
                    > TopicSet to occur together, which NewsML does not allow.
                    >
                    > In this case there will be no document that conforms both to your DTD
                    > and to NewsML.
                    >
                    > ======== NewsComponent ========
                    > FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsComponent (Comment* , Catalog? , TopicSet* , Role?
                    > ,
                    > BasisForChoice* , NewsLines? , AdministrativeMetadata? , RightsMetadata?
                    > ,
                    > DescriptiveMetadata? , Metadata* , ( (NewsItem | NewsItemRef )+ |
                    > NewsComponent+ | ContentItem+ )? )>
                    > TO: <!ELEMENT NewsComponent (Comment* , Catalog? , TopicSet* , Role? ,
                    > BasisForChoice* , NewsLines? , AdministrativeMetadata? , RightsMetadata?
                    > ,
                    > DescriptiveMetadata? , Metadata* , ContentItem+ )>
                    >
                    > This too is a significant change. You are requiring one or more
                    > ContentItem subelements, and not allowing NewsItem, NewsItemRef or
                    > NewsComponent. The NewsML DTD says that you may optionally have EITHER
                    > any number of NewsItem subelements or NewsItemRef subelements or a mix
                    > of the two, OR any number of NewsComponent subelements OR any number of
                    > ContentItem subelements, but you can't mix ContentItem subelements or
                    > Content Item subelements with each other or with NewsItem and
                    > NewsItemRef subelements.
                    >
                    > In this case, documents that conform to your DTD will confrom to the
                    > NewsML DTD, but not necessarily the other way round.
                    >
                    > ======== ContentItem ========
                    > FROM: <!ELEMENT ContentItem (Comment* , Catalog? , MediaType? , Format?
                    > ,
                    > MimeType? , Notation? , Characteristics? , (Encoding | DataContent )? )>
                    > TO: <!ELEMENT ContentItem (Comment* , Catalog? , MediaType? , Format? ,
                    > MimeType? , Notation? , Characteristics? , Encoding? , DataContent? )>
                    >
                    > Here, the NewsML DTD allows an optional Encoding or DataContent
                    > subelement, but not both. Your variant allows both to be present.
                    >
                    > In this case, the situation is the inverse of the previous one:
                    > documents that conform to the NewsML DTD will conform to yours, but not
                    > necessarily the other way round.
                    >
                    >
                    > You ask:
                    > * Is Avenue.Quark's inability to read the dtd a fault with the dtd
                    > itself?
                    >
                    > Answer - no. In the first case, the parentheses are not significant, but
                    > are not in error. In the other cases, they do make a difference to the
                    > meaning of the DTD, and cannot be removed.
                    >
                    > You might like to run these observations by the Avenue.Quark people and
                    > see if they have any further comments.
                    >
                    > Best regards
                    >
                    > Daniel Rivers-Moore
                    > Editor, NewsML v1.0
                    >
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...]
                    > Sent: 01 August 2001 15:17
                    > To: newsml@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [newsml] Avenue.quark
                    >
                    >
                    > In my ongoing efforts to get Avenue.Quark to create NewsML docs, I have
                    > been
                    > having a lot of difficulty getting Avenue to read the NewsML dtd
                    > correctly -
                    > it had a tendency to distort the NewsML tree structure and to name
                    > elements
                    > '()' (ie empty parentheses) rather than, for example, 'NewsComponent'. I
                    > have talked to tech support at Avenue.Quark (full response below) who
                    > have
                    > suggested that Avenue fails to import the dtd correctly because manner
                    > in
                    > which subelements are specified within elements. On their suggestion I
                    > have
                    > made the following changes to elements in the NewsML dtd which do indeed
                    > help Avenue.Quark to import it (almost) correctly:
                    >
                    >
                    > ======== NewsML ========
                    > FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , (NewsEnvelope ,
                    > NewsItem+ )
                    > )>
                    > TO: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , NewsEnvelope, NewsItem+)>
                    >
                    >
                    > ======== NewsItem ========
                    > FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsItem (Comment* , Catalog? , Identification ,
                    > NewsManagement , (NewsComponent | Update+ | TopicSet )? )>
                    > TO: <!ELEMENT NewsItem (Comment* , Catalog? , Identification ,
                    > NewsManagement , NewsComponent , Update+, TopicSet? )>
                    >
                    >
                    > ======== NewsComponent ========
                    > FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsComponent (Comment* , Catalog? , TopicSet* , Role?
                    > ,
                    > BasisForChoice* , NewsLines? , AdministrativeMetadata? , RightsMetadata?
                    > ,
                    > DescriptiveMetadata? , Metadata* , ( (NewsItem | NewsItemRef )+ |
                    > NewsComponent+ | ContentItem+ )? )>
                    > TO: <!ELEMENT NewsComponent (Comment* , Catalog? , TopicSet* , Role? ,
                    > BasisForChoice* , NewsLines? , AdministrativeMetadata? , RightsMetadata?
                    > ,
                    > DescriptiveMetadata? , Metadata* , ContentItem+ )>
                    >
                    >
                    > ======== ContentItem ========
                    > FROM: <!ELEMENT ContentItem (Comment* , Catalog? , MediaType? , Format?
                    > ,
                    > MimeType? , Notation? , Characteristics? , (Encoding | DataContent )? )>
                    > TO: <!ELEMENT ContentItem (Comment* , Catalog? , MediaType? , Format? ,
                    > MimeType? , Notation? , Characteristics? , Encoding? , DataContent? )>
                    >
                    >
                    > What I'd like to know is:
                    > * It is valid to edit the dtd in this way.
                    > * I am not an XML expert so am unsure of what implications these changes
                    > will have.
                    > * Will my Avenue.Quark xml documents still technically conform to NewsML
                    > and
                    > be exchangeable with other NewsML systems.
                    > * Is Avenue.Quark's inability to read the dtd a fault with the dtd
                    > itself?
                    > * the parentheses that have been removed - what did they do?
                    >
                    >
                    > Cheers,
                    > Paul Mullen
                    > (hopefully not the only person in the world trying to use Quark with
                    > NewsML)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ============================================
                    > FULL RESPONSE FROM AVENUE.QUARK TECH SUPPORT
                    > ============================================
                    >
                    > Hi Paul,
                    >
                    > I've now had a chance to look at your files a little more in-depth, and
                    > have
                    > some information that I believe will help you with this issue. In
                    > regards to
                    > you previous question, I've not heard of any other customers using
                    > avenue.quark and the NewsML DTD at this point, though in looking into
                    > this
                    > issue it should make it easier to help other customers who choose to use
                    > this DTD.
                    >
                    > In examining your files, it seems that the problem is that the DTD you
                    > sent
                    > me (NewsMLv1.0.dtd) doesn't quite match the doctree.jpg file structure
                    > that
                    > you sent along with it. In the doctree.jpg file that you sent, it is
                    > defined
                    > that the NewsML element can contain the elements Catalog, TopicSet,
                    > NewsEnvelope, and NewsItem. However, in the DTD you sent, the
                    > subelements
                    > contained within NewsML contain other subelements, which are
                    > NewsEnvelope
                    > and NewsItem, illustrated in the DTD as follows:
                    >
                    > <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , (NewsEnvelope , NewsItem+ )
                    > )>
                    >
                    > I've found that it is the presence of this second set of subelements
                    > that
                    > result in the empty parentheses when editing Tagging Rule sets. When I
                    > made
                    > the following change to the DTD, it then would match the structure
                    > specified
                    > in the doctree.jpg file, and corrected the problem with Edit> Tagging
                    > Rules:
                    >
                    > <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , NewsEnvelope, NewsItem+)>
                    >
                    > This specifies that the NewsML element can contain zero or one
                    > occurrence of
                    > Catalog, zero or more occurrences of TopicSet, one occurrence of
                    > NewsEnvelope, and one or more occurrence of NewsItem, as listed in the
                    > text
                    > of the DTD.
                    >
                    > Please be aware, you might have to look into your DTD a little further,
                    > as
                    > I've found that this happens in at least one more place in your DTD as
                    > it is
                    > (under NewsItem). Also, I investigated this using XML Authority (which
                    > showed the DTD as avenue.quark did) as opposed to XML Spy. I'll look
                    > into
                    > this with a copy of XML Spy as well to see there are any differences in
                    > behavior between the two applications.
                    >
                    > I hope this information helps. If you have any other questions or
                    > concerns
                    > relating to this issue, please don't hesitate to contact me again.
                    >
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    > Greg Stretton
                    > Quark Technical Support
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...]
                    > Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 5:35 AM
                    > To: avenue-user-support
                    > Subject: Re: NewsML docs
                    >
                    >
                    > Thanks Greg. I look forward to hearing from you. If I have any further
                    > info,
                    > I'll send it on. Have you heard of anyone else using Avenue.Quark with
                    > the
                    > NewsML dtd?
                    >
                    > Rgds,
                    > Paul
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >> From: avenue-user-support <avenue-user-support@...>
                    >> Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:20:24 -0600
                    >> To: 'Paul Mullen' <paul@...>
                    >> Subject: RE: NewsML docs
                    >>
                    >> Hi Paul,
                    >>
                    >> Thanks for providing this information and your files. I've seen the
                    > problem
                    >> you described in your files, though I'll need to investigate this a
                    > little
                    >> further in order to determine the cause of this. I haven't been able
                    > to
                    >> immediately identify anything that you've been doing wrong, so
                    > hopefully
                    >> further examination into this will yield some good results. I'll let
                    > you
                    >> know my findings as soon as possible, and please let me know any other
                    >> pertinent information or findings you may have on this issue in the
                    >> meantime.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Regards,
                    >> Greg Stretton
                    >> Quark Technical Support
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> -----Original Message-----
                    >> From: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...]
                    >> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 6:15 AM
                    >> To: avenue-user-support@...
                    >> Subject: NewsML docs
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Greg,
                    >>
                    >> Thanks for getting back to me - I appreciate that this may be a dtd
                    > problem
                    >> and would not therefore be something you cover. I have validated the
                    > dtd
                    > in
                    >> XMLspy (seemes OK) and it is also now an approved standard for the
                    > news
                    >> industry, published by the IPTC, so I'd be a little surprised if it
                    > was a
                    >> dtd issue - but you never know!
                    >>
                    >> Attached files:
                    >> 1. The NewsMLv1.0 dtd
                    >> 2. A sample news page I am trying to convert to xml using this dtd
                    >> 3. A jpg showing the NewsML dtd tree structure.
                    >>
                    >> Platform:
                    >> Mac OS 9.0.4
                    >> Quark v4.11
                    >> Avenue v1.0
                    >> 411 Fixit extension installed
                    >>
                    >> Method:
                    >> 1. File/New xml (opens new xml file dialogue box)
                    >> 2. Select custom.xmt
                    >> - choose NewsMLv1.0.dtd
                    >> - choose NewsML as root element
                    >> - Rule set in 'none' (no other options)
                    >> - click OK
                    >> 3. As no rule set is selected, Choose Edit/Tagging rules, select new
                    > set.
                    >> Use this rule set to define links between paragraph styles and dtd
                    > elements.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Problems:
                    >> 1. In rule set dialogue box, window showing dtd tree structure does
                    > not
                    >> reflect that indicated in the attached jpg illustration.
                    >> For example, Within the NewsML element should be 4 sub elements
                    >> (NewsEnvelope, Catalog, TopicSet, NewsItem). What actually appears is:
                    >> Catalog, TopicSet, (). NewsEnvelope appears within the unnamed ()
                    > element,
                    >> which is why I think Avenue.Quark is misreading the structure of the
                    > dtd.
                    >> 2. Strange, unnamed () elements appear at various points throughout
                    > the
                    > dtd
                    >> tree, a further example being the DataContent element which is within
                    > the
                    >> ContentItem element. This is a crucial problem as it means I cannot
                    > put
                    > any
                    >> actual content into the xml file.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> It may be that in reading this, you immediately spot something that I
                    > am
                    >> doing wrong - in which case apologies for the 'dtd-mashing'
                    > accusations.
                    >> However I have followed the steps in the tutorial and can't see
                    > anything
                    >> obvious that I've missed. Please contact me if you need further
                    > information.
                    >>
                    >> cheers,
                    >> Paul Mulen
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To Post a message, send it to: newsml@...
                    >
                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: newsml-unsubscribe@...
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To Post a message, send it to: newsml@...
                    >
                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: newsml-unsubscribe@...
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >


                    ----------

                    From: avenue-user-support <avenue-user-support@...> To: 'Paul Mullen' <paul@...> Date: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 10:50 pm Subject: RE: NewsML docs Hi Paul, I've now had a chance to look at your files a little more in-depth, and have some information that I believe will help you with this issue. In regards to you previous question, I've not heard of any other customers using avenue.quark and the NewsML DTD at this point, though in looking into this issue it should make it easier to help other customers who choose to use this DTD. In examining your files, it seems that the problem is that the DTD you sent me (NewsMLv1.0.dtd) doesn't quite match the doctree.jpg file structure that you sent along with it. In the doctree.jpg file that you sent, it is defined that the NewsML element can contain the elements Catalog, TopicSet, NewsEnvelope, and NewsItem. However, in the DTD you sent, the subelements contained within NewsML contain other subelements, which are NewsEnvelope and NewsItem, illustrated in the DTD as follows: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , (NewsEnvelope , NewsItem+ ) )> I've found that it is the presence of this second set of subelements that result in the empty parentheses when editing Tagging Rule sets. When I made the following change to the DTD, it then would match the structure specified in the doctree.jpg file, and corrected the problem with Edit> Tagging Rules: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , NewsEnvelope, NewsItem+)> This specifies that the NewsML element can contain zero or one occurrence of Catalog, zero or more occurrences of TopicSet, one occurrence of NewsEnvelope, and one or more occurrence of NewsItem, as listed in the text of the DTD. Please be aware, you might have to look into your DTD a little further, as I've found that this happens in at least one more place in your DTD as it is (under NewsItem). Also, I investigated this using XML Authority (which showed the DTD as avenue.quark did) as opposed to XML Spy. I'll look into this with a copy of XML Spy as well to see there are any differences in behavior between the two applications. I hope this information helps. If you have any other questions or concerns relating to this issue, please don't hesitate to contact me again. Regards, Greg Stretton Quark Technical Support -----Original Message----- From: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...] Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 5:35 AM To: avenue-user-support Subject: Re: NewsML docs Thanks Greg. I look forward to hearing from you. If I have any further info, I'll send it on. Have you heard of anyone else using Avenue.Quark with the NewsML dtd? Rgds, Paul > From: avenue-user-support <avenue-user-support@...> > Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:20:24 -0600 > To: 'Paul Mullen' <paul@...> > Subject: RE: NewsML docs > > Hi Paul, > > Thanks for providing this information and your files. I've seen the problem > you described in your files, though I'll need to investigate this a little > further in order to determine the cause of this. I haven't been able to > immediately identify anything that you've been doing wrong, so hopefully > further examination into this will yield some good results. I'll let you > know my findings as soon as possible, and please let me know any other > pertinent information or findings you may have on this issue in the > meantime. > > > Regards, > Greg Stretton > Quark Technical Support > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...] > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 6:15 AM > To: avenue-user-support@... > Subject: NewsML docs > > > Greg, > > Thanks for getting back to me - I appreciate that this may be a dtd problem > and would not therefore be something you cover. I have validated the dtd in > XMLspy (seemes OK) and it is also now an approved standard for the news > industry, published by the IPTC, so I'd be a little surprised if it was a > dtd issue - but you never know! > > Attached files: > 1. The NewsMLv1.0 dtd > 2. A sample news page I am trying to convert to xml using this dtd > 3. A jpg showing the NewsML dtd tree structure. > > Platform: > Mac OS 9.0.4 > Quark v4.11 > Avenue v1.0 > 411 Fixit extension installed > > Method: > 1. File/New xml (opens new xml file dialogue box) > 2. Select custom.xmt > - choose NewsMLv1.0.dtd > - choose NewsML as root element > - Rule set in 'none' (no other options) > - click OK > 3. As no rule set is selected, Choose Edit/Tagging rules, select new set. > Use this rule set to define links between paragraph styles and dtd elements. > > > Problems: > 1. In rule set dialogue box, window showing dtd tree structure does not > reflect that indicated in the attached jpg illustration. > For example, Within the NewsML element should be 4 sub elements > (NewsEnvelope, Catalog, TopicSet, NewsItem). What actually appears is: > Catalog, TopicSet, (). NewsEnvelope appears within the unnamed () element, > which is why I think Avenue.Quark is misreading the structure of the dtd. > 2. Strange, unnamed () elements appear at various points throughout the dtd > tree, a further example being the DataContent element which is within the > ContentItem element. This is a crucial problem as it means I cannot put any > actual content into the xml file. > > > It may be that in reading this, you immediately spot something that I am > doing wrong - in which case apologies for the 'dtd-mashing' accusations. > However I have followed the steps in the tutorial and can't see anything > obvious that I've missed. Please contact me if you need further information. > > cheers, > Paul Mulen > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Daniel Rivers-Moore
                    Paul You ask: is there anyway of expressing the same meaning and structure within the dtd, but without using parentheses? As you suspect, the answer is no. I
                    Message 9 of 9 , Aug 9 5:04 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Paul

                      You ask: is there anyway of expressing the same meaning and
                      structure within the dtd, but without using parentheses?

                      As you suspect, the answer is no. I think the approach you are taking
                      with Avenue.quark is appropriate. DTDs support parentheses - so should
                      their tool.

                      Kind regards

                      Daniel

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...]
                      Sent: 09 August 2001 09:57
                      To: newsml@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [newsml] Avenue.quark


                      Daniel,

                      Thanks for this explanation - extremely helpful. Quark Support only
                      suggested making the first change to the NewsML dtd which, as you point
                      out,
                      makes no difference. However they did point out that the problem with
                      Avenue.Quark reading items in parentheses occurred at several points
                      throughout the dtd. As I result of this, I edited the dtd at the point
                      where
                      this was occurring to establish whether this would help Avenue to import
                      the
                      dtd successfully. Funnily enough, it did exactly that, but also caused
                      the
                      fundamental changes to the dtd meaning and structure that you have
                      pointed
                      out.

                      So, to be fair to Quark support, the major changes to the dtd are a
                      result
                      of my crude hacking rather than their direct recommendations. (their
                      full
                      response, plus the referred-to jpg of the dtd structure - taken from the
                      IPTC site - is attached for your info).

                      However, the fact remains that Avenue.quark is unable to import the dtd
                      correctly and has particular difficulty with elements or attributes
                      specified within parentheses. Therefore - and I suspect the answer to
                      this
                      is a resounding 'no' - is there anyway of expressing the same meaning
                      and
                      structure within the dtd, but without using parentheses?

                      I have forwarded your response to Quark support, as it seems to me that
                      it
                      is a major failing of the product that it does not support what is
                      likely to
                      be a widely-adopted standard amongst their customer base. I will forward
                      any
                      further response back to you.

                      Many thanks,
                      Paul Mullen



                      > From: "Daniel Rivers-Moore" <daniel.rivers-moore@...>
                      > Reply-To: newsml@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 16:03:08 +0100
                      > To: <newsml@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Subject: RE: [newsml] Avenue.quark
                      >
                      > Removing the parentheses as you have done does indeed have
                      consequences
                      > for the meaning of the DTD. That is, they make a difference between
                      what
                      > document instance structures will or will not conform to the DTD.
                      >
                      > To go through your changes one by one:
                      >
                      > ======== NewsML ========
                      > FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , (NewsEnvelope ,
                      > NewsItem+ ))>
                      > TO: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , NewsEnvelope,
                      NewsItem+)>
                      >
                      > This will make no difference. The meanings of the two are the same.
                      >
                      > In this case any document that conforms to your DTD will conform to
                      > NewsML, and vice versa.
                      >
                      > ======== NewsItem ========
                      > FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsItem (Comment* , Catalog? , Identification ,
                      > NewsManagement , (NewsComponent | Update+ | TopicSet )? )>
                      > TO: <!ELEMENT NewsItem (Comment* , Catalog? , Identification ,
                      > NewsManagement , NewsComponent , Update+, TopicSet? )>
                      >
                      > This DOES make a difference (and a significant one). The NewsML DTD
                      > means that there is optionally EITHER a single NewsComponent element,
                      OR
                      > one or more Update elements, OR a single TopicSet element, but there
                      > cannot be a mix of NewsComponent, Update and TopicSet subelements.
                      Your
                      > version makes the NewsComponent required (which it is not), makes
                      Update
                      > required (which it is not), and allows NewsComponent, Update and
                      > TopicSet to occur together, which NewsML does not allow.
                      >
                      > In this case there will be no document that conforms both to your DTD
                      > and to NewsML.
                      >
                      > ======== NewsComponent ========
                      > FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsComponent (Comment* , Catalog? , TopicSet* ,
                      Role?
                      > ,
                      > BasisForChoice* , NewsLines? , AdministrativeMetadata? ,
                      RightsMetadata?
                      > ,
                      > DescriptiveMetadata? , Metadata* , ( (NewsItem | NewsItemRef )+ |
                      > NewsComponent+ | ContentItem+ )? )>
                      > TO: <!ELEMENT NewsComponent (Comment* , Catalog? , TopicSet* , Role?
                      ,
                      > BasisForChoice* , NewsLines? , AdministrativeMetadata? ,
                      RightsMetadata?
                      > ,
                      > DescriptiveMetadata? , Metadata* , ContentItem+ )>
                      >
                      > This too is a significant change. You are requiring one or more
                      > ContentItem subelements, and not allowing NewsItem, NewsItemRef or
                      > NewsComponent. The NewsML DTD says that you may optionally have EITHER
                      > any number of NewsItem subelements or NewsItemRef subelements or a mix
                      > of the two, OR any number of NewsComponent subelements OR any number
                      of
                      > ContentItem subelements, but you can't mix ContentItem subelements or
                      > Content Item subelements with each other or with NewsItem and
                      > NewsItemRef subelements.
                      >
                      > In this case, documents that conform to your DTD will confrom to the
                      > NewsML DTD, but not necessarily the other way round.
                      >
                      > ======== ContentItem ========
                      > FROM: <!ELEMENT ContentItem (Comment* , Catalog? , MediaType? ,
                      Format?
                      > ,
                      > MimeType? , Notation? , Characteristics? , (Encoding | DataContent )?
                      )>
                      > TO: <!ELEMENT ContentItem (Comment* , Catalog? , MediaType? , Format?
                      ,
                      > MimeType? , Notation? , Characteristics? , Encoding? , DataContent? )>
                      >
                      > Here, the NewsML DTD allows an optional Encoding or DataContent
                      > subelement, but not both. Your variant allows both to be present.
                      >
                      > In this case, the situation is the inverse of the previous one:
                      > documents that conform to the NewsML DTD will conform to yours, but
                      not
                      > necessarily the other way round.
                      >
                      >
                      > You ask:
                      > * Is Avenue.Quark's inability to read the dtd a fault with the dtd
                      > itself?
                      >
                      > Answer - no. In the first case, the parentheses are not significant,
                      but
                      > are not in error. In the other cases, they do make a difference to the
                      > meaning of the DTD, and cannot be removed.
                      >
                      > You might like to run these observations by the Avenue.Quark people
                      and
                      > see if they have any further comments.
                      >
                      > Best regards
                      >
                      > Daniel Rivers-Moore
                      > Editor, NewsML v1.0
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...]
                      > Sent: 01 August 2001 15:17
                      > To: newsml@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [newsml] Avenue.quark
                      >
                      >
                      > In my ongoing efforts to get Avenue.Quark to create NewsML docs, I
                      have
                      > been
                      > having a lot of difficulty getting Avenue to read the NewsML dtd
                      > correctly -
                      > it had a tendency to distort the NewsML tree structure and to name
                      > elements
                      > '()' (ie empty parentheses) rather than, for example, 'NewsComponent'.
                      I
                      > have talked to tech support at Avenue.Quark (full response below) who
                      > have
                      > suggested that Avenue fails to import the dtd correctly because manner
                      > in
                      > which subelements are specified within elements. On their suggestion I
                      > have
                      > made the following changes to elements in the NewsML dtd which do
                      indeed
                      > help Avenue.Quark to import it (almost) correctly:
                      >
                      >
                      > ======== NewsML ========
                      > FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , (NewsEnvelope ,
                      > NewsItem+ )
                      > )>
                      > TO: <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , NewsEnvelope,
                      NewsItem+)>
                      >
                      >
                      > ======== NewsItem ========
                      > FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsItem (Comment* , Catalog? , Identification ,
                      > NewsManagement , (NewsComponent | Update+ | TopicSet )? )>
                      > TO: <!ELEMENT NewsItem (Comment* , Catalog? , Identification ,
                      > NewsManagement , NewsComponent , Update+, TopicSet? )>
                      >
                      >
                      > ======== NewsComponent ========
                      > FROM: <!ELEMENT NewsComponent (Comment* , Catalog? , TopicSet* ,
                      Role?
                      > ,
                      > BasisForChoice* , NewsLines? , AdministrativeMetadata? ,
                      RightsMetadata?
                      > ,
                      > DescriptiveMetadata? , Metadata* , ( (NewsItem | NewsItemRef )+ |
                      > NewsComponent+ | ContentItem+ )? )>
                      > TO: <!ELEMENT NewsComponent (Comment* , Catalog? , TopicSet* , Role?
                      ,
                      > BasisForChoice* , NewsLines? , AdministrativeMetadata? ,
                      RightsMetadata?
                      > ,
                      > DescriptiveMetadata? , Metadata* , ContentItem+ )>
                      >
                      >
                      > ======== ContentItem ========
                      > FROM: <!ELEMENT ContentItem (Comment* , Catalog? , MediaType? ,
                      Format?
                      > ,
                      > MimeType? , Notation? , Characteristics? , (Encoding | DataContent )?
                      )>
                      > TO: <!ELEMENT ContentItem (Comment* , Catalog? , MediaType? , Format?
                      ,
                      > MimeType? , Notation? , Characteristics? , Encoding? , DataContent? )>
                      >
                      >
                      > What I'd like to know is:
                      > * It is valid to edit the dtd in this way.
                      > * I am not an XML expert so am unsure of what implications these
                      changes
                      > will have.
                      > * Will my Avenue.Quark xml documents still technically conform to
                      NewsML
                      > and
                      > be exchangeable with other NewsML systems.
                      > * Is Avenue.Quark's inability to read the dtd a fault with the dtd
                      > itself?
                      > * the parentheses that have been removed - what did they do?
                      >
                      >
                      > Cheers,
                      > Paul Mullen
                      > (hopefully not the only person in the world trying to use Quark with
                      > NewsML)
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ============================================
                      > FULL RESPONSE FROM AVENUE.QUARK TECH SUPPORT
                      > ============================================
                      >
                      > Hi Paul,
                      >
                      > I've now had a chance to look at your files a little more in-depth,
                      and
                      > have
                      > some information that I believe will help you with this issue. In
                      > regards to
                      > you previous question, I've not heard of any other customers using
                      > avenue.quark and the NewsML DTD at this point, though in looking into
                      > this
                      > issue it should make it easier to help other customers who choose to
                      use
                      > this DTD.
                      >
                      > In examining your files, it seems that the problem is that the DTD you
                      > sent
                      > me (NewsMLv1.0.dtd) doesn't quite match the doctree.jpg file structure
                      > that
                      > you sent along with it. In the doctree.jpg file that you sent, it is
                      > defined
                      > that the NewsML element can contain the elements Catalog, TopicSet,
                      > NewsEnvelope, and NewsItem. However, in the DTD you sent, the
                      > subelements
                      > contained within NewsML contain other subelements, which are
                      > NewsEnvelope
                      > and NewsItem, illustrated in the DTD as follows:
                      >
                      > <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , (NewsEnvelope , NewsItem+ )
                      > )>
                      >
                      > I've found that it is the presence of this second set of subelements
                      > that
                      > result in the empty parentheses when editing Tagging Rule sets. When I
                      > made
                      > the following change to the DTD, it then would match the structure
                      > specified
                      > in the doctree.jpg file, and corrected the problem with Edit> Tagging
                      > Rules:
                      >
                      > <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , NewsEnvelope, NewsItem+)>
                      >
                      > This specifies that the NewsML element can contain zero or one
                      > occurrence of
                      > Catalog, zero or more occurrences of TopicSet, one occurrence of
                      > NewsEnvelope, and one or more occurrence of NewsItem, as listed in the
                      > text
                      > of the DTD.
                      >
                      > Please be aware, you might have to look into your DTD a little
                      further,
                      > as
                      > I've found that this happens in at least one more place in your DTD as
                      > it is
                      > (under NewsItem). Also, I investigated this using XML Authority (which
                      > showed the DTD as avenue.quark did) as opposed to XML Spy. I'll look
                      > into
                      > this with a copy of XML Spy as well to see there are any differences
                      in
                      > behavior between the two applications.
                      >
                      > I hope this information helps. If you have any other questions or
                      > concerns
                      > relating to this issue, please don't hesitate to contact me again.
                      >
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      > Greg Stretton
                      > Quark Technical Support
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...]
                      > Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 5:35 AM
                      > To: avenue-user-support
                      > Subject: Re: NewsML docs
                      >
                      >
                      > Thanks Greg. I look forward to hearing from you. If I have any further
                      > info,
                      > I'll send it on. Have you heard of anyone else using Avenue.Quark with
                      > the
                      > NewsML dtd?
                      >
                      > Rgds,
                      > Paul
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >> From: avenue-user-support <avenue-user-support@...>
                      >> Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:20:24 -0600
                      >> To: 'Paul Mullen' <paul@...>
                      >> Subject: RE: NewsML docs
                      >>
                      >> Hi Paul,
                      >>
                      >> Thanks for providing this information and your files. I've seen the
                      > problem
                      >> you described in your files, though I'll need to investigate this a
                      > little
                      >> further in order to determine the cause of this. I haven't been able
                      > to
                      >> immediately identify anything that you've been doing wrong, so
                      > hopefully
                      >> further examination into this will yield some good results. I'll let
                      > you
                      >> know my findings as soon as possible, and please let me know any
                      other
                      >> pertinent information or findings you may have on this issue in the
                      >> meantime.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> Regards,
                      >> Greg Stretton
                      >> Quark Technical Support
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> -----Original Message-----
                      >> From: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...]
                      >> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 6:15 AM
                      >> To: avenue-user-support@...
                      >> Subject: NewsML docs
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> Greg,
                      >>
                      >> Thanks for getting back to me - I appreciate that this may be a dtd
                      > problem
                      >> and would not therefore be something you cover. I have validated the
                      > dtd
                      > in
                      >> XMLspy (seemes OK) and it is also now an approved standard for the
                      > news
                      >> industry, published by the IPTC, so I'd be a little surprised if it
                      > was a
                      >> dtd issue - but you never know!
                      >>
                      >> Attached files:
                      >> 1. The NewsMLv1.0 dtd
                      >> 2. A sample news page I am trying to convert to xml using this dtd
                      >> 3. A jpg showing the NewsML dtd tree structure.
                      >>
                      >> Platform:
                      >> Mac OS 9.0.4
                      >> Quark v4.11
                      >> Avenue v1.0
                      >> 411 Fixit extension installed
                      >>
                      >> Method:
                      >> 1. File/New xml (opens new xml file dialogue box)
                      >> 2. Select custom.xmt
                      >> - choose NewsMLv1.0.dtd
                      >> - choose NewsML as root element
                      >> - Rule set in 'none' (no other options)
                      >> - click OK
                      >> 3. As no rule set is selected, Choose Edit/Tagging rules, select new
                      > set.
                      >> Use this rule set to define links between paragraph styles and dtd
                      > elements.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> Problems:
                      >> 1. In rule set dialogue box, window showing dtd tree structure does
                      > not
                      >> reflect that indicated in the attached jpg illustration.
                      >> For example, Within the NewsML element should be 4 sub elements
                      >> (NewsEnvelope, Catalog, TopicSet, NewsItem). What actually appears
                      is:
                      >> Catalog, TopicSet, (). NewsEnvelope appears within the unnamed ()
                      > element,
                      >> which is why I think Avenue.Quark is misreading the structure of the
                      > dtd.
                      >> 2. Strange, unnamed () elements appear at various points throughout
                      > the
                      > dtd
                      >> tree, a further example being the DataContent element which is within
                      > the
                      >> ContentItem element. This is a crucial problem as it means I cannot
                      > put
                      > any
                      >> actual content into the xml file.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> It may be that in reading this, you immediately spot something that I
                      > am
                      >> doing wrong - in which case apologies for the 'dtd-mashing'
                      > accusations.
                      >> However I have followed the steps in the tutorial and can't see
                      > anything
                      >> obvious that I've missed. Please contact me if you need further
                      > information.
                      >>
                      >> cheers,
                      >> Paul Mulen
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To Post a message, send it to: newsml@...
                      >
                      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                      newsml-unsubscribe@...
                      >
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                      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                      >


                      ----------

                      From: avenue-user-support <avenue-user-support@...>
                      To: 'Paul Mullen' <paul@...>
                      Date: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 10:50 pm
                      Subject: RE: NewsML docs

                      Hi Paul,

                      I've now had a chance to look at your files a little more in-depth, and
                      have
                      some information that I believe will help you with this issue. In
                      regards to
                      you previous question, I've not heard of any other customers using
                      avenue.quark and the NewsML DTD at this point, though in looking into
                      this
                      issue it should make it easier to help other customers who choose to use
                      this DTD.

                      In examining your files, it seems that the problem is that the DTD you
                      sent
                      me (NewsMLv1.0.dtd) doesn't quite match the doctree.jpg file structure
                      that
                      you sent along with it. In the doctree.jpg file that you sent, it is
                      defined
                      that the NewsML element can contain the elements Catalog, TopicSet,
                      NewsEnvelope, and NewsItem. However, in the DTD you sent, the
                      subelements
                      contained within NewsML contain other subelements, which are
                      NewsEnvelope
                      and NewsItem, illustrated in the DTD as follows:

                      <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , (NewsEnvelope , NewsItem+ )
                      )>

                      I've found that it is the presence of this second set of subelements
                      that
                      result in the empty parentheses when editing Tagging Rule sets. When I
                      made
                      the following change to the DTD, it then would match the structure
                      specified
                      in the doctree.jpg file, and corrected the problem with Edit> Tagging
                      Rules:

                      <!ELEMENT NewsML (Catalog? , TopicSet* , NewsEnvelope, NewsItem+)>

                      This specifies that the NewsML element can contain zero or one
                      occurrence of
                      Catalog, zero or more occurrences of TopicSet, one occurrence of
                      NewsEnvelope, and one or more occurrence of NewsItem, as listed in the
                      text
                      of the DTD.

                      Please be aware, you might have to look into your DTD a little further,
                      as
                      I've found that this happens in at least one more place in your DTD as
                      it is
                      (under NewsItem). Also, I investigated this using XML Authority (which
                      showed the DTD as avenue.quark did) as opposed to XML Spy. I'll look
                      into
                      this with a copy of XML Spy as well to see there are any differences in
                      behavior between the two applications.

                      I hope this information helps. If you have any other questions or
                      concerns
                      relating to this issue, please don't hesitate to contact me again.


                      Regards,
                      Greg Stretton
                      Quark Technical Support



                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...]
                      Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 5:35 AM
                      To: avenue-user-support
                      Subject: Re: NewsML docs


                      Thanks Greg. I look forward to hearing from you. If I have any further
                      info,
                      I'll send it on. Have you heard of anyone else using Avenue.Quark with
                      the
                      NewsML dtd?

                      Rgds,
                      Paul




                      > From: avenue-user-support <avenue-user-support@...>
                      > Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:20:24 -0600
                      > To: 'Paul Mullen' <paul@...>
                      > Subject: RE: NewsML docs
                      >
                      > Hi Paul,
                      >
                      > Thanks for providing this information and your files. I've seen the
                      problem
                      > you described in your files, though I'll need to investigate this a
                      little
                      > further in order to determine the cause of this. I haven't been able
                      to
                      > immediately identify anything that you've been doing wrong, so
                      hopefully
                      > further examination into this will yield some good results. I'll let
                      you
                      > know my findings as soon as possible, and please let me know any other
                      > pertinent information or findings you may have on this issue in the
                      > meantime.
                      >
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      > Greg Stretton
                      > Quark Technical Support
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Paul Mullen [mailto:paul@...]
                      > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 6:15 AM
                      > To: avenue-user-support@...
                      > Subject: NewsML docs
                      >
                      >
                      > Greg,
                      >
                      > Thanks for getting back to me - I appreciate that this may be a dtd
                      problem
                      > and would not therefore be something you cover. I have validated the
                      dtd
                      in
                      > XMLspy (seemes OK) and it is also now an approved standard for the
                      news
                      > industry, published by the IPTC, so I'd be a little surprised if it
                      was a
                      > dtd issue - but you never know!
                      >
                      > Attached files:
                      > 1. The NewsMLv1.0 dtd
                      > 2. A sample news page I am trying to convert to xml using this dtd
                      > 3. A jpg showing the NewsML dtd tree structure.
                      >
                      > Platform:
                      > Mac OS 9.0.4
                      > Quark v4.11
                      > Avenue v1.0
                      > 411 Fixit extension installed
                      >
                      > Method:
                      > 1. File/New xml (opens new xml file dialogue box)
                      > 2. Select custom.xmt
                      > - choose NewsMLv1.0.dtd
                      > - choose NewsML as root element
                      > - Rule set in 'none' (no other options)
                      > - click OK
                      > 3. As no rule set is selected, Choose Edit/Tagging rules, select new
                      set.
                      > Use this rule set to define links between paragraph styles and dtd
                      elements.
                      >
                      >
                      > Problems:
                      > 1. In rule set dialogue box, window showing dtd tree structure does
                      not
                      > reflect that indicated in the attached jpg illustration.
                      > For example, Within the NewsML element should be 4 sub elements
                      > (NewsEnvelope, Catalog, TopicSet, NewsItem). What actually appears is:
                      > Catalog, TopicSet, (). NewsEnvelope appears within the unnamed ()
                      element,
                      > which is why I think Avenue.Quark is misreading the structure of the
                      dtd.
                      > 2. Strange, unnamed () elements appear at various points throughout
                      the
                      dtd
                      > tree, a further example being the DataContent element which is within
                      the
                      > ContentItem element. This is a crucial problem as it means I cannot
                      put
                      any
                      > actual content into the xml file.
                      >
                      >
                      > It may be that in reading this, you immediately spot something that I
                      am
                      > doing wrong - in which case apologies for the 'dtd-mashing'
                      accusations.
                      > However I have followed the steps in the tutorial and can't see
                      anything
                      > obvious that I've missed. Please contact me if you need further
                      information.
                      >
                      > cheers,
                      > Paul Mulen
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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