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Line/para breaks in NewsLines

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  • Misha Wolf
    Reuters needs a way of indicating logical breaks in NewsLines. I would like to suggest that the XHTML element be permitted within a NewsLine. I guess
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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      Reuters needs a way of indicating logical breaks in
      NewsLines. I would like to suggest that the XHTML <br />
      element be permitted within a NewsLine. I guess I'm too
      late for NewsML 1.2, but would like to see people's
      comments and any alternative proposals.

      --
      Misha Wolf
      Standards Manager
      Content Architecture Group
      Reuters, 85 Fleet Street, London EC4P 4AJ

      Telephone +44 20 7542 6722
      Mobile +44 7990 56 6722
      Email misha.wolf@...
      Reuters Messaging misha.wolf.reuters.com@...




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    • Johan Lindgren
      ... I think we had a lengthy discussion on this during the NewsML development. But I don t remember the pro s and con s. Maybe Jo or Laurent remembers. I think
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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        newsml@yahoogroups.com skriver:
        >Reuters needs a way of indicating logical breaks in
        >NewsLines. I would like to suggest that the XHTML <br />
        >element be permitted within a NewsLine. I guess I'm too
        >late for NewsML 1.2, but would like to see people's
        >comments and any alternative proposals.

        I think we had a lengthy discussion on this during the NewsML development.
        But I don't remember the pro's and con's. Maybe Jo or Laurent remembers. I
        think there were talks about beeing able to put rich content into the
        newslines but obviously it did not get in there.

        I can see your point. But wouldn't it be good to open up that discussion
        again and see were it takes us. If you like breaks, I would guess that
        other suggestions might pop up now or in the future so if we are to change
        it we should look at something more extensible/open.

        johan
      • Paul Harman
        From: Misha Wolf [mailto:misha.wolf@reuters.com] ... If it is a logical break, why would a repeated NewsLine element (or a different NewsLine element) not be
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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          From: Misha Wolf [mailto:misha.wolf@...]
          > Reuters needs a way of indicating logical breaks in
          > NewsLines.

          If it is a logical break, why would a repeated NewsLine element (or a
          different NewsLine element) not be appropriate?

          Paul


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        • Misha Wolf
          I ve proposed this to the team responsible for our News Production system and they don t like it. I haven t yet established why, but it is a somewhat
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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            I've proposed this to the team responsible for our News
            Production system and they don't like it. I haven't yet
            established why, but it is a somewhat inelegant solution
            in that it uses two NewsLine elements to express one
            NewsLine consisting of 2 paragraphs.

            --
            Misha Wolf
            Standards Manager
            Content Architecture Group
            Reuters, 85 Fleet Street, London EC4P 4AJ

            Telephone +44 20 7542 6722
            Mobile +44 7990 56 6722
            Email misha.wolf@...
            Reuters Messaging misha.wolf.reuters.com@...


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Paul Harman [mailto:paul.harman@...]
            Sent: 02 October 2003 12:24
            To: 'newsml@yahoogroups.com'
            Subject: RE: [newsml] Line/para breaks in NewsLines


            From: Misha Wolf [mailto:misha.wolf@...]
            > Reuters needs a way of indicating logical breaks in
            > NewsLines.

            If it is a logical break, why would a repeated NewsLine element (or a
            different NewsLine element) not be appropriate?

            Paul


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          • Paul Harman
            From: Misha Wolf [mailto:misha.wolf@reuters.com] ... Hmmm. I suppose that simply using a newline (0x0A) or paragraph (0xB6) character into the NewsLine is even
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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              From: Misha Wolf [mailto:misha.wolf@...]
              > I've proposed this to the team responsible for our News
              > Production system and they don't like it.

              Hmmm. I suppose that simply using a newline (0x0A) or paragraph (0xB6)
              character into the NewsLine is even uglier.

              Paul


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            • Misha Wolf
              I think that some people objected to allowing arbitrary XHTML markup in NewsLines, arguing that these should be very simple and that rich content belongs
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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                I think that some people objected to allowing arbitrary XHTML
                markup in NewsLines, arguing that these should be very simple
                and that rich content belongs elsewhere (eg in the XHTML story
                itself). My view is that a simple line or para break doesn't
                conflict with this "simple content" idea.

                In general, I would be in favour of allowing *all* XHTML
                phrase-level markup in NewsLines, but I don't want to delay
                getting a reasonable solution to the line/para break as a
                result of engaging in the broader debate.

                --
                Misha Wolf
                Standards Manager
                Content Architecture Group
                Reuters, 85 Fleet Street, London EC4P 4AJ

                Telephone +44 20 7542 6722
                Mobile +44 7990 56 6722
                Email misha.wolf@...
                Reuters Messaging misha.wolf.reuters.com@...


                -----Original Message-----
                From: Johan Lindgren [mailto:johan.lindgren@...]
                Sent: 02 October 2003 12:14
                To: newsml@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [newsml] Line/para breaks in NewsLines


                newsml@yahoogroups.com skriver:
                >Reuters needs a way of indicating logical breaks in
                >NewsLines. I would like to suggest that the XHTML <br />
                >element be permitted within a NewsLine. I guess I'm too
                >late for NewsML 1.2, but would like to see people's
                >comments and any alternative proposals.

                I think we had a lengthy discussion on this during the NewsML
                development.
                But I don't remember the pro's and con's. Maybe Jo or Laurent remembers.
                I
                think there were talks about beeing able to put rich content into the
                newslines but obviously it did not get in there.

                I can see your point. But wouldn't it be good to open up that discussion
                again and see were it takes us. If you like breaks, I would guess that
                other suggestions might pop up now or in the future so if we are to
                change
                it we should look at something more extensible/open.

                johan



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              • Misha Wolf
                I believe that the XML parser would swallow those chars. BTW, for now, we are doing something *really* ugly, which is inserting a ¶ character. -- Misha Wolf
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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                  I believe that the XML parser would swallow those chars.

                  BTW, for now, we are doing something *really* ugly, which
                  is inserting a "¶" character.

                  --
                  Misha Wolf
                  Standards Manager
                  Content Architecture Group
                  Reuters, 85 Fleet Street, London EC4P 4AJ

                  Telephone +44 20 7542 6722
                  Mobile +44 7990 56 6722
                  Email misha.wolf@...
                  Reuters Messaging misha.wolf.reuters.com@...


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Paul Harman [mailto:paul.harman@...]
                  Sent: 02 October 2003 12:39
                  To: 'newsml@yahoogroups.com'
                  Subject: RE: [newsml] Line/para breaks in NewsLines


                  From: Misha Wolf [mailto:misha.wolf@...]
                  > I've proposed this to the team responsible for our News
                  > Production system and they don't like it.

                  Hmmm. I suppose that simply using a newline (0x0A) or paragraph (0xB6)
                  character into the NewsLine is even uglier.

                  Paul


                  This E-Mail and any attachment is intended only for the person or entity for
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                  sender immediately and delete it from your computer. In addition, if you are
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                  upon it is prohibited and may be unlawful.
                  If this E-Mail has been transmitted outside the ordinary course of its
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                  reliance on information contained in this E-Mail, and any opinion expressed
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                  keep its network free from viruses, neither the network operator nor the
                  sender or the company for which the sender works accepts any responsibility
                  for computer viruses transmitted through this E-Mail or any attachments; it
                  is your responsibility to virus scan this E-Mail and any attachments. Any
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                • Misha Wolf
                  I ve just had a reply from our News Production system team and their arguments against a multiple NewsLine solution include: - It adds more bulk to the
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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                    I've just had a reply from our News Production system team
                    and their arguments against a multiple NewsLine solution
                    include:

                    - It adds more bulk to the already bulky NewsML.

                    - It would be inconsistent with other textual content, where
                    one does not insert a new container element in order to
                    achieve such a break.

                    - We do need some other basic XHTML markup in NewsLines, eg
                    the <a .../> element.

                    --
                    Misha Wolf
                    Standards Manager
                    Content Architecture Group
                    Reuters, 85 Fleet Street, London EC4P 4AJ

                    Telephone +44 20 7542 6722
                    Mobile +44 7990 56 6722
                    Email misha.wolf@...
                    Reuters Messaging misha.wolf.reuters.com@...


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Misha Wolf
                    Sent: 02 October 2003 12:33
                    To: Newsml (newsml@yahoogroups.com)
                    Subject: RE: [newsml] Line/para breaks in NewsLines


                    I've proposed this to the team responsible for our News
                    Production system and they don't like it. I haven't yet
                    established why, but it is a somewhat inelegant solution
                    in that it uses two NewsLine elements to express one
                    NewsLine consisting of 2 paragraphs.

                    --
                    Misha Wolf
                    Standards Manager
                    Content Architecture Group
                    Reuters, 85 Fleet Street, London EC4P 4AJ

                    Telephone +44 20 7542 6722
                    Mobile +44 7990 56 6722
                    Email misha.wolf@...
                    Reuters Messaging misha.wolf.reuters.com@...


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Paul Harman [mailto:paul.harman@...]
                    Sent: 02 October 2003 12:24
                    To: 'newsml@yahoogroups.com'
                    Subject: RE: [newsml] Line/para breaks in NewsLines


                    From: Misha Wolf [mailto:misha.wolf@...]
                    > Reuters needs a way of indicating logical breaks in
                    > NewsLines.

                    If it is a logical break, why would a repeated NewsLine element (or a
                    different NewsLine element) not be appropriate?

                    Paul


                    This E-Mail and any attachment is intended only for the person or entity
                    for
                    which it is addressed and may contain confidential material. If you are
                    not
                    the addressee or have received this E-Mail in error, please inform the
                    sender immediately and delete it from your computer. In addition, if you
                    are
                    not the addressee or have received this E-Mail in error, any disclosure,
                    copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in
                    reliance
                    upon it is prohibited and may be unlawful.
                    If this E-Mail has been transmitted outside the ordinary course of its
                    business, the company for which the sender works accepts no liability
                    for
                    any loss or damage suffered by any person arising from any use of or
                    reliance on information contained in this E-Mail, and any opinion
                    expressed
                    in this E-Mail is personal to the sender and may not reflect the opinion
                    of
                    such company. Although the network operator makes every reasonable
                    effort to
                    keep its network free from viruses, neither the network operator nor the
                    sender or the company for which the sender works accepts any
                    responsibility
                    for computer viruses transmitted through this E-Mail or any attachments;
                    it
                    is your responsibility to virus scan this E-Mail and any attachments.
                    Any
                    E-Mail reply to this address may be subject to interception or
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                  • Johan Lindgren
                    ... I wouldn t think that is a problem. I d be more worried about the chars getting lost in subsequent processing. johan
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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                      newsml@yahoogroups.com skriver:
                      >I believe that the XML parser would swallow those chars.


                      I wouldn't think that is a problem. I'd be more worried about the chars
                      getting lost in subsequent processing.

                      johan
                    • Misha Wolf
                      Anyhow ... a solution using CRs/LFs would be fragile, as the XML is peppered with them and, in general, the producing and consuming apps do not take any
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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                        Anyhow ... a solution using CRs/LFs would be fragile, as the
                        XML is peppered with them and, in general, the producing and
                        consuming apps do not take any special care with them.

                        The XML spec does provide the xml:space attribute [1] but I'm
                        not very enthusiastic about using it in this context. This
                        too would require a change to the NewsML DTD.

                        What do others think?

                        [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml#sec-white-space

                        --
                        Misha Wolf
                        Standards Manager
                        Content Architecture Group
                        Reuters, 85 Fleet Street, London EC4P 4AJ

                        Telephone +44 20 7542 6722
                        Mobile +44 7990 56 6722
                        Email misha.wolf@...
                        Reuters Messaging misha.wolf.reuters.com@...


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Johan Lindgren [mailto:johan.lindgren@...]
                        Sent: 02 October 2003 13:03
                        To: newsml@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: RE: [newsml] Line/para breaks in NewsLines


                        newsml@yahoogroups.com skriver:
                        >I believe that the XML parser would swallow those chars.


                        I wouldn't think that is a problem. I'd be more worried about the chars
                        getting lost in subsequent processing.

                        johan



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                      • Jo Rabin
                        In response to Johan s question about remembering ... ... my recollection is that there was general agreement that NewsLines are features of news stories that
                        Message 11 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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                          In response to Johan's question about remembering ...

                          ... my recollection is that there was general agreement that NewsLines are
                          features of news stories that are related to, but distinct from, the body of
                          the news story. The reason for thinking this is the case (to my mind)
                          relates mainly to need to be able to search archives of content, without
                          that search returning irrelevant results because of accidental hits on the
                          newslines. For example, if the ByLine is "Jack London, New York" and the
                          story is about UN/Iraq then one would wish to avoid searches involving
                          London and New York returning that story. So the NewsLine information needs
                          to be distinctly marked up at least.

                          The next part of this, I think, was the notion that NewsLines are in fact
                          'rendered metadata'. i.e. the information in newslines may be partly or
                          wholly duplicated in other metadata fields, but that the publisher in the
                          case of NewsLines would control the nature of that rendering, which they
                          might choose to do on a per language or other basis.

                          This in turns leads to the notion that Newslines occur at the component
                          level, because they may relate to some set of similar equivalent
                          representations. Particularly because common properties of lower level
                          components should be raised to the highest possible level in the XML tree
                          that they apply to.

                          Now add in various news providers legitimate desire to have formatting
                          (whitespace and other embellishment) beyond the simple space ... this
                          requirement seems to be in contradiction to the need to surface common
                          properties as far up the tree as possible, and the desirability of
                          simplification of the receiving NewsML processor so that NewsLines would
                          'work' in an environment where there is neither XHTML nor NITF capability.

                          Also there is the need to have some way of simply rendering a list of
                          stories, which may all come from different providers, and where the
                          information about the story (the Headline usually) needs to be rendered
                          concisely, presumably in one line. It is, of course, very desirable that
                          news from different providers should be compatible in listing operations of
                          this kind. (My view was that there is a need for a Title element for this
                          purpose).

                          And there is also the need to think about the use of Headlines on their own
                          as 'alerts', and the desirability of minimising verbosity for this special
                          but important case.

                          There was some discussion about doing away with the idea of newslines
                          altogether and establishing 'roles' for NewsComponents that would cover the
                          same semantics as NewsLines. This would of course allow complete flexibility
                          in the rendering of newslines while preserving their unique character - but
                          at the cost of substantial verbosity. Something that Misha comments is
                          highly undesirably from Reuters point of view.

                          In the end, as far as I remember my involvement, the problem was put on the
                          shelf for future generations to solve.

                          Hope this helps the debate
                          Jo

                          P.S. I think this also relates to the thread 'adding a subclass to
                          newslines, and Laurent's observation about AFP practice of including the
                          Newslines in the body of the story.

                          P.P.S. in general I would think that trying to record the reasons for making
                          design decisions is 'good practice' as it means that when the decisions are
                          questioned down the road (as they will be), the earlier rationale can be
                          examined and tested for continuing validity. Difficult to do, I know.
                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Johan Lindgren [mailto:johan.lindgren@...]
                          Sent: 02 October 2003 12:14
                          To: newsml@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [newsml] Line/para breaks in NewsLines


                          newsml@yahoogroups.com skriver:
                          >Reuters needs a way of indicating logical breaks in
                          >NewsLines. I would like to suggest that the XHTML <br />
                          >element be permitted within a NewsLine. I guess I'm too
                          >late for NewsML 1.2, but would like to see people's
                          >comments and any alternative proposals.

                          I think we had a lengthy discussion on this during the NewsML development.
                          But I don't remember the pro's and con's. Maybe Jo or Laurent remembers. I
                          think there were talks about beeing able to put rich content into the
                          newslines but obviously it did not get in there.

                          I can see your point. But wouldn't it be good to open up that discussion
                          again and see were it takes us. If you like breaks, I would guess that
                          other suggestions might pop up now or in the future so if we are to change
                          it we should look at something more extensible/open.

                          johan


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                        • Misha Wolf
                          ... Though it is difficult, we are doing it. Our archival device is called a Jo Rabin . -- Misha Wolf Standards Manager Content Architecture Group Reuters,
                          Message 12 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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                            Jo wrote:

                            > P.P.S. in general I would think that trying to record the
                            > reasons for making design decisions is 'good practice' as
                            > it means that when the decisions are questioned down the
                            > road (as they will be), the earlier rationale can be
                            > examined and tested for continuing validity. Difficult to
                            > do, I know.

                            Though it is difficult, we are doing it. Our archival
                            device is called a "Jo Rabin".

                            --
                            Misha Wolf
                            Standards Manager
                            Content Architecture Group
                            Reuters, 85 Fleet Street, London EC4P 4AJ

                            Telephone +44 20 7542 6722
                            Mobile +44 7990 56 6722
                            Email misha.wolf@...
                            Reuters Messaging misha.wolf.reuters.com@...



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                          • Johan Lindgren
                            ... This is getting far away from Misha s first question. But nevertheless interesting. So newslines are sort of placed in a no-mans-land between metadata and
                            Message 13 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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                              newsml@yahoogroups.com skriver:
                              >Also there is the need to have some way of simply rendering a list of
                              >stories, which may all come from different providers, and where the
                              >information about the story (the Headline usually) needs to be rendered
                              >concisely, presumably in one line. It is, of course, very desirable that
                              >news from different providers should be compatible in listing operations
                              >of
                              >this kind. (My view was that there is a need for a Title element for this
                              >purpose).

                              This is getting far away from Misha's first question. But nevertheless
                              interesting.

                              So newslines are sort of placed in a no-mans-land between metadata and
                              content. We would like them to work both as clean metadata and as a
                              container for enriched content. Maybe hard to combine these functionality.

                              If I remember correctly the japanese RadioTVML project had som elements
                              "duplicated" where one held the information in plain text and the other
                              pre-formatted.

                              Maybe we should have such doubled newsline functionality, with the class
                              Laurent speaks about.

                              johan
                            • Paul Harman
                              From: Johan Lindgren [mailto:johan.lindgren@tt.se] ... Or perhaps we should abolish NewsLines, and have only Descriptive/AdministrativeMetadata at the NewsML
                              Message 14 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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                                From: Johan Lindgren [mailto:johan.lindgren@...]
                                > Maybe we should have such doubled newsline functionality,
                                > with the class Laurent speaks about.

                                Or perhaps we should abolish NewsLines, and have only
                                Descriptive/AdministrativeMetadata at the NewsML level, and rendered
                                newslines inside the ContentItem.

                                Paul


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                              • Bill Kearney
                                Not one that follows the specs. http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml#sec-white-space http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml#sec-line-ends XSLT also has ways to handle this via
                                Message 15 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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                                  Not one that follows the specs.
                                  http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml#sec-white-space
                                  http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml#sec-line-ends

                                  XSLT also has ways to handle this via xsl:preserve-space

                                  -Bill Kearney

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Misha Wolf" misha.wolf@...

                                  I believe that the XML parser would swallow those chars.

                                  BTW, for now, we are doing something *really* ugly, which
                                  is inserting a "¶" character.

                                  From: "Misha Wolf" <misha.wolf@...>


                                  > Reuters needs a way of indicating logical breaks in
                                  > NewsLines. I would like to suggest that the XHTML <br />
                                  > element be permitted within a NewsLine. I guess I'm too
                                  > late for NewsML 1.2, but would like to see people's
                                  > comments and any alternative proposals.
                                • Ken Wolf
                                  At Business Wire we are leaning toward establishing NewsComponent roles for some multi line content or formatted content, such as Subhead lines, that we
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Oct 2, 2003
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                                    At Business Wire we are leaning toward establishing NewsComponent 'roles' for
                                    some multi line content or formatted content, such as Subhead lines, that we initially
                                    expected to put in a NewsLine.

                                    Use of white space may sometimes be a temporary solution but it is generally difficult
                                    to deal with for humans. XML provides an opportunity to
                                    avoid many of the hassles related to processing
                                    white space characters. We still sometimes use white space at Business Wire
                                    but we are moving away from using it.

                                    FYI - here is the definition of a Java v1.3 white space character:

                                    It is a Unicode space separator (category "Zs"), but is not a no-break space (\u00A0 or \uFEFF).
                                    It is a Unicode line separator (category "Zl").
                                    It is a Unicode paragraph separator (category "Zp").
                                    It is \u0009, HORIZONTAL TABULATION.
                                    It is \u000A, LINE FEED.
                                    It is \u000B, VERTICAL TABULATION.
                                    It is \u000C, FORM FEED.
                                    It is \u000D, CARRIAGE RETURN.
                                    It is \u001C, FILE SEPARATOR.
                                    It is \u001D, GROUP SEPARATOR.
                                    It is \u001E, RECORD SEPARATOR.
                                    It is \u001F, UNIT SEPARATOR.

                                    -Ken Wolf
                                    Business Wire
                                  • Laurent Le Meur
                                    I have the same kind of souvenirs than Jo, i.e. NewsLines considered as rendered metadata or legible information associated with content inside a news
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Oct 3, 2003
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                                      I have the same kind of souvenirs than Jo, i.e. NewsLines considered as
                                      "rendered metadata" or "legible information associated with content
                                      inside a news component" (so a NewsLine is not content!).

                                      Looking in other XML representations, I would compare NewsLines with
                                      Dublin Code or RSS "title" and "description". About description ->
                                      "some words to describe your channel. This section cannot contain
                                      anything other than plain text (no HTML or other markup is allowed)"
                                      (from the book "Content syndication with RSS" (Ben Hammersley))

                                      About Misha's assertion:
                                      "I've just had a reply from our News Production system team
                                      and their arguments against a multiple NewsLine solution
                                      include:
                                      - It would be inconsistent with other textual content, where
                                      one does not insert a new container element in order to
                                      achieve such a break."

                                      => Adding a container is especially what people (including AFP) do in
                                      the text as paragraph <p> supercede line breaks. Does Reuters use <br>
                                      in the text paragraphs?

                                      This issue of enriched content in NewsLines can be discussed during the
                                      brainstorming meeting in Leipzig.

                                      But it is too late for any modification of NewsML in the (very) short
                                      term.

                                      Laurent Le Meur






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                                    • Jo Rabin
                                      One further point on NewsLines and their embedding or otherwise in content - It s very much a feature of NewsML that the content need not be included directly
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Oct 3, 2003
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                                        One further point on NewsLines and their embedding or otherwise in content -

                                        It's very much a feature of NewsML that the content need not be included
                                        directly in the NewsML document. i.e. It may be referenced. If the NewsLines
                                        are present only in the content it would be extremely difficult to make
                                        sense of this feature which inter alia is very useful for presenting lists
                                        of NewsItems.

                                        Jo


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