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Works of Art < Artifacts < Objects

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  • misha.wolf@thomsonreuters.com
    I see. We have to be clear whether we are referring to objects or to the subset of objects that are artifacts. For example, the mysterious object which passed
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 15, 2010
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      I see.

      We have to be clear whether we are referring to objects
      or to the subset of objects that are artifacts.

      For example, the mysterious object which passed near to
      Earth a few days ago may or may not be an artifact ...

      Consider a story about the find of a massive diamond.
      Until the diamond has been worked on (cut, polished, etc)
      it too is not an artifact.

      Misha


      -----Original Message-----
      From: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of Michael Steidl (IPTC)
      Sent: 15 January 2010 07:58
      To: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [newsml-g2] Re: Works of Art

      Misha, right. That's the reason why I said we lost it: we wanted to
      extend
      the set of concept types to objects (Laurent called them artifacts), as
      a
      first step we added the objectDetails to the concept structure and the
      required next step to add a corresponding value to the concept nature
      newscodes was not taken. Could be considered as an erratum.

      Michael


      -----Original Message-----
      From: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf
      Of misha.wolf@...
      Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 7:35 PM
      To: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [newsml-g2] Re: Works of Art

      I think that the values of this CV relate to the XML structures
      we provide for describing instances of the types, isn't that so?

      Misha


      -----Original Message-----
      From: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of Michael Steidl (IPTC)
      Sent: 14 January 2010 18:31
      To: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [newsml-g2] Re: Works of Art

      I agree in some sharp bend the "object" must have fallen from our lorry.

      We will discuss how to fix it ASAP.

      Michael

      -----Original Message-----
      From: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf
      Of Kelvin Holland
      Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 2:45 PM
      To: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [newsml-g2] Re: Works of Art

      Hi Paul,

      <objectDetails> is a container for expressing information about such
      things as works of art within <concept>. (p86 of Guidelines)

      You are right, the Concept Nature scheme does not contain an identifier
      for "real-world object" Sorry I can't say why - maybe just an omission?

      Kelvin


      --- In newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Harman" <paul.harman@...> wrote:
      >
      > Just want to check my understanding about something.
      >
      > If my text mining engine discovers a named work of art in a story
      (e.g.
      > the Mona Lisa [the painting], Doctor Who [the TV show], The
      Magnificent
      > Seven [the film]), I would like to represent this as a <subject>. It's
      > not a person, place or organisation, so those aren't appropriate
      types.
      >
      > One way to solve this would be to extend/override the cpnat scheme
      with
      > one that adds new values e.g. newcpnat:workOfArt, or perhaps more
      > specifically newcpnat:painting, newcpnat:tvShow, newcpnat:film -
      however
      > I don't think that helps interchange.
      >
      > Should I set cpnat:abstract, and encode the type of artwork insde the
      > <conceptItem> somewhere, perhaps a facet? If so is there an existing
      > vocabulary for facet/@qcode defining types of work of art, or should I
      > invent this myself?
      >
      > Once invented, presumably then I can put the <facet> into the
      <subject>
      > reference to the concept inside my <newsItem>, so that I can declare
      > what kinds of item have been found in my newsItem?
      >
      > Paul
      >
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    • Darko Gulija
      This discussion was/is a long ongoing thread throughout the whole design process. The final solution we agreed on was (expressed in my own words - don t know
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 15, 2010
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        This discussion was/is a long ongoing thread throughout the whole design process.

        The final solution we agreed on was (expressed in my own words - don't know whether we have some "official" text written on the topic):
         
        1. Use @type to describe STRUCTURE of the properties that describe the concept. Person has different structure of properties in (in the <concept> element) from organization, POI, Location etc, and therefore they have different value for @type.

        2. Use <facet> to describe subdivisions of type that could be perceived as characteristics. For example, whether Location is a City, County, Municipality or something else (or whether Person is an Actor, Politician etc) should be described as a <facet>. Facet could be put in the newsItems as well (as a child of <subject> and other FlexProperties), so it could be used in the instances as well as in the definitions of the concepts.

        3. Avoid using your own scheme for @type (i.e. creating new values for it), because it causes interoperability problems. Party that receives concept with the @type it does not understand could  do nothing with it except storing and comparing its qcode. If you do so, you would have to provide your customers with the definition/schema of the structure of properties you use to describe that concept, and they would have to modify their receiving software should they want to use it.

        4. Additional details /richer description of the <concept> could be provided in-line (in the news/package item) in the <assert> element - assert supports all children of <concept> including the ones specific for the @type (like NumberOfSeats for  POI), whilst <subject> and other Flex*Type Properties support only the ones common to all types.

        5. We discussed introducing "artifact" (real world object) as a @type for quite some time, but never finished it. Photo group has expressed some demands for it as well. If you need it, propose the structure of the properties to describe it and send a change request to start discussion - standardization process could start only by someone proposing soemething (sooner or later).

        6. Open question (in my mind): does value "cpnat:abstract" implies that there is NO structure describing the concept, or could it also mean that structure is not (yet) defined by the IPTC, and so expressed as extension in different namespace ? Do we need a new value for the second case ?

        Hope that helps.

        Best regards,

        Darko

        2010/1/14 Kelvin Holland <kholland@...>
        Leaving aside the actual IPTC Nature of the Concept scheme, I'm inclined
        to think that trying to classify to that level of  detail is not what
        the IPTC intended  for @type. It would become unwieldy. For example,
        using concepts of type=person allows you to quickly answer the question
        "which people are relevant to this Item". If you start splitting people
        into politicians, actors, writers at this level then such broad
        classifications become impossible, and the same is true of Objects.

        That said, I am not sure what it is you are trying to achieve. Do you
        need to search for content about specific films,  any film,  types of
        film, films in general? This is where one has to  be careful about
        getting locked into a rigid architecture that can't adapt to new
        demands.

        Kelvin


        --- In newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Harman" <paul.harman@...> wrote:
        >
        > From: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com] On
        > Behalf Of Kelvin Holland
        > > <objectDetails> is a container for expressing information about such
        > > things as works of art within <concept>. (p86 of Guidelines)
        >
        >
        > Yes ;-)
        >
        >
        > > You are right, the Concept Nature scheme does not contain an
        > identifier
        > > for "real-world object" Sorry I can't say why - maybe just an
        > omission?
        >
        >
        > Indeed. cpnat:abstract isn't right either. If I'm going to go to the
        > trouble of overriding cpnat (to add pacpnat:physicalEntity), then it's
        > just as easy for me to add all the types of works of art to that
        scheme,
        > rather than using facet. Which is probably the wrong thing to do, but
        it
        > is easier to justify (who decides that 'person' is important enough to
        > have a top-level entry, but 'film' has to be a seond-class type of
        > entity that hides behind 'work of art'). And so on.
        >
        > It's probably better for the IPTC to add something to cpnat that means
        > "a type of physical entity not already specified in this list"... but
        > the problem with this kind of generic other/miscellaneous entry in a
        > vocabulary though is that when some kinds of 'things' get their own
        > entry in cpnat, then pre-existing newsItems all need to have their
        > entities reclassified.
        >
        > So... Is anyone else doing this now, and if so how are you doing it?
        >
        >  Paul
        >
        > This email is from the Press Association.  For more information, see
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        > This email may contain confidential information.
        > Only the addressee is permitted to read, copy, distribute or otherwise
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        > If you have received it in error, please contact the sender
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        > Any opinion expressed in this email is personal to the sender and may
        not reflect the opinion of the Press Association.
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        monitoring for operational reasons or for lawful business practices.
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      • Paul Harman
        Darko, Thanks for that overview. At this time I don t have any properties of my objects that I want to assert, that I can t do with the existing generic
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 15, 2010
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          Darko,
           
          Thanks for that overview.
           
          At this time I don't have any properties of my objects that I want to assert, that I can't do with the existing generic concept properties such as facet and remoteInfo. All I need is the cpnat value and I can proceed :-)
           
          [Should we move to iptc-nar-dev to follow up on your points below?]
           
              Paul


          From: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Darko Gulija
          Sent: 15 January 2010 09:32
          To: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [newsml-g2] Re: Works of Art

           

          This discussion was/is a long ongoing thread throughout the whole design process.

          The final solution we agreed on was (expressed in my own words - don't know whether we have some "official" text written on the topic):
           
          1. Use @type to describe STRUCTURE of the properties that describe the concept. Person has different structure of properties in (in the <concept> element) from organization, POI, Location etc, and therefore they have different value for @type.

          2. Use <facet> to describe subdivisions of type that could be perceived as characteristics. For example, whether Location is a City, County, Municipality or something else (or whether Person is an Actor, Politician etc) should be described as a <facet>. Facet could be put in the newsItems as well (as a child of <subject> and other FlexProperties) , so it could be used in the instances as well as in the definitions of the concepts.

          3. Avoid using your own scheme for @type (i.e. creating new values for it), because it causes interoperability problems. Party that receives concept with the @type it does not understand could  do nothing with it except storing and comparing its qcode. If you do so, you would have to provide your customers with the definition/schema of the structure of properties you use to describe that concept, and they would have to modify their receiving software should they want to use it.

          4. Additional details /richer description of the <concept> could be provided in-line (in the news/package item) in the <assert> element - assert supports all children of <concept> including the ones specific for the @type (like NumberOfSeats for  POI), whilst <subject> and other Flex*Type Properties support only the ones common to all types.

          5. We discussed introducing "artifact" (real world object) as a @type for quite some time, but never finished it. Photo group has expressed some demands for it as well. If you need it, propose the structure of the properties to describe it and send a change request to start discussion - standardization process could start only by someone proposing soemething (sooner or later).

          6. Open question (in my mind): does value "cpnat:abstract" implies that there is NO structure describing the concept, or could it also mean that structure is not (yet) defined by the IPTC, and so expressed as extension in different namespace ? Do we need a new value for the second case ?

          Hope that helps.

          Best regards,

          Darko

          2010/1/14 Kelvin Holland <kholland@point- house.co. uk>
          Leaving aside the actual IPTC Nature of the Concept scheme, I'm inclined
          to think that trying to classify to that level of  detail is not what
          the IPTC intended  for @type. It would become unwieldy. For example,
          using concepts of type=person allows you to quickly answer the question
          "which people are relevant to this Item". If you start splitting people
          into politicians, actors, writers at this level then such broad
          classifications become impossible, and the same is true of Objects.

          That said, I am not sure what it is you are trying to achieve. Do you
          need to search for content about specific films,  any film,  types of
          film, films in general? This is where one has to  be careful about
          getting locked into a rigid architecture that can't adapt to new
          demands.

          Kelvin


          --- In newsml-g2@yahoogrou ps.com, "Paul Harman" <paul.harman@ ...> wrote:
          >
          > From: newsml-g2@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:newsml-g2@yahoogrou ps.com] On
          > Behalf Of Kelvin Holland
          > > <objectDetails> is a container for expressing information about such
          > > things as works of art within <concept>. (p86 of Guidelines)
          >
          >
          > Yes ;-)
          >
          >
          > > You are right, the Concept Nature scheme does not contain an
          > identifier
          > > for "real-world object" Sorry I can't say why - maybe just an
          > omission?
          >
          >
          > Indeed. cpnat:abstract isn't right either. If I'm going to go to the
          > trouble of overriding cpnat (to add pacpnat:physicalEnt ity), then it's
          > just as easy for me to add all the types of works of art to that
          scheme,
          > rather than using facet. Which is probably the wrong thing to do, but
          it
          > is easier to justify (who decides that 'person' is important enough to
          > have a top-level entry, but 'film' has to be a seond-class type of
          > entity that hides behind 'work of art'). And so on.
          >
          > It's probably better for the IPTC to add something to cpnat that means
          > "a type of physical entity not already specified in this list"... but
          > the problem with this kind of generic other/miscellaneous entry in a
          > vocabulary though is that when some kinds of 'things' get their own
          > entry in cpnat, then pre-existing newsItems all need to have their
          > entities reclassified.
          >
          > So... Is anyone else doing this now, and if so how are you doing it?
          >
          >  Paul
          >
          > This email is from the Press Association.  For more information, see
          www.pressassociatio n.com.
          > This email may contain confidential information.
          > Only the addressee is permitted to read, copy, distribute or otherwise
          use this email or any attachments.
          > If you have received it in error, please contact the sender
          immediately.
          > Any opinion expressed in this email is personal to the sender and may
          not reflect the opinion of the Press Association.
          > Any email reply to this address may be subject to interception or
          monitoring for operational reasons or for lawful business practices.
          >




          ------------ --------- --------- ------

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