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RE: [newsml-g2] Proposed clarification of 'rank'

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  • misha.wolf@thomsonreuters.com
    I ve remembered that we re thinking of using the rank attribute to indicate whether a content language is primary, secondary, etc. So here s another try ...
    Message 1 of 11 , May 19, 2009
      I've remembered that we're thinking of using the rank attribute to indicate whether a content language is primary, secondary, etc.  So here's another try ...
       
      rank (available at the PCL only) is used to indicate the relative importance of items in a list.
       
      Items with a lower value of the rank attribute have a higher importance than items with a higher value of this attribute.  All items with the same value of the rank attribute have the same importance.  All items without a rank attribute have the same importance, which is lower than the importance of all items with this attribute.
       
      If relative importance is being used to determine display order, then:
      -  Items with a lower value of the rank attribute should be displayed before items with a higher value of this attribute.
      -  Items with the same value of the rank attribute should be ordered within this rank alphabetically by their names if these are available. If some or all of the names are available in multiple languages, the order of the items will depend on the language chosen.
      -  All items without a rank attribute should be displayed after all items with this attribute.
       
      Regards,
      Misha
       

      From: Wolf, Misha (M Cont Ent)
      Sent: 18 May 2009 17:10
      To: 'newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [newsml-g2] Proposed clarification of 'rank'

      Here's another draft which attempts to be really explicit.  Please note that "before" and "after" indicate a logical ordering.  Depending on the user's language and other UI factors, "before" could result in any of:
      -    above
      -    below
      -    to the left
      -    to the right
      -    further along a concentric spiral
      -    etc
       
      rank (available at the PCL only) is used when it is important that items in a list be displayed in a user interface in a defined order.
       
      Items with a lower value of the rank attribute should be displayed before items with a higher value of the rank attribute.
       
      Items with the same value of the rank attribute should be ordered within this rank alphabetically by their names if these are available.  If some or all of the names are available in multiple languages, the order of the items will depend on the language chosen.
       
      Items without a rank attribute should be treated as if they all had the same rank attribute value and should be displayed after all items that have a rank attribute.
       
      Regards,
      Misha
       

      From: Wolf, Misha (M Cont Ent)
      Sent: 18 May 2009 16:23
      To: 'newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: Re: [newsml-g2] Proposed clarification of 'rank'

      Hi Michael,
       
      Thanks for your comments.  I don't understand some of them.  It is impossible to provide a meaningful definition of rank without using words such as "after" and/or "before".  The whole purpose of rank is to specify the required order.  What's the point of providing a definition which says nothing about the purpose of the attribute?
       
      I included the mention of seeded and unseeded tennis players to help people understand the treatment of ranked and unranked items.  If you don't think people will understand it, I'll drop it.
       
      Below is a revised wording:
       
      rank (available at the PCL only) is used when it is important that items in a list be displayed in a user interface in a defined order.
       
      Items with a higher rank value should be displayed after items with a lower rank value.
       
      Items with the same rank value should be ordered within this rank alphabetically by their names if these are available.  If some or all of the names are available in multiple languages, the order of the items will depend on the language chosen.
       
      Items without a rank attribute should be treated as if they all have the same rank value and should be displayed after all items that have a rank attribute.
       
      Regards,
      Misha
       


      From: Michael Steidl (IPTC) [mailto:mdirector@...]
      Sent: 18 May 2009 15:56
      To: Wolf, Misha (M Cont Ent); newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [newsml-g2] Proposed clarification of 'rank'

      Hi Misha, my comments below, some inline edits appear in green.

      --------------------------------------------------
      On 18 May 2009 at 14:50  misha.wolf@... wrote:

      At last Friday's IPTC teleconference, I took an action to propose clearer wording for 'rank' in the NewsML-G2 specification. The existing wording is:  
      rank (available at the PCL only) is suitable for use in a Knowledge Item representing a scheme. It is used when it is important that the Child Elements of a particular term are displayed in a user interface in a predefined order.  

      For example, the major currencies could be given a rank of “1”, while all other currencies could be given a rank of “2”. Terms of the same rank are ordered alphabetically by name if this is available. If the name is not available, the terms are ordered by code value.
      Terms without a rank are treated as if they all have the same rank, which is higher than the rank of all other terms.  

      The same concept may have different ranks in different concept trees. A lower rank results in a placement earlier in a display.  
      The proposed wording is:  
      rank (available at the PCL only) is used when it is important that the Child Elements of a particular term are displayed in a user interface in a predefined order.  
      Terms with a higher rank value are displayed after terms with a lower rank value.

      MS: I think we should not specify the visual order at the interface level. For some reasons an interface may require to show the terms in a different ordering (ascending vs descending). The "... in a predefined order. " is sufficient for me.

      Terms of the same rank are ordered within this rank alphabetically by the name in a specific language  if this is available. If the name is not available, the terms are ordered by code value.  

      MS: which code? Be aware that also links have ranks - but no code as value.
      Terms without a rank are treated as if they all have the same rank and are displayed after all terms that have a rank.  

      MS: as the rank is expressed by an integer value we have to refer to this numeric value like "... that have a rank equivalent to the highest numeric rank value of the list".
      It is permissible for multiple terms to have the same rank value.  For example, the major currencies could be given a rank of "1", while all other currencies could be given a rank of "2".  
      The same concept may have different ranks in different concept trees.  

      MS: hm, I think the last sentence only partially applies: as links don't necessarily refer to concepts this statement would not apply - shouldn't we delete it?
      Note: The ordering of terms with and without rank values can be compared to the ordering of seeded and unseeded players prior to a tennis tournament.  

      MS: Hope everbody reading our specs is good in tennis seedings - sorry, I've never been to Wimbledon, can't imagine how this translates to the G2 ranks.

      Michael

      Regards,  
      Misha  
      This email was sent to you by Thomson Reuters, the global news and information company.
      Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Thomson Reuters.

      ==================================================
      Sent by:
      Michael Steidl
      Managing Director of the IPTC <mdirector@...>
      International Press Telecommunications Council
      "Information Technology for News"
      Visit us on the web at  http://www.iptc.org
       

      This email was sent to you by Thomson Reuters, the global news and information company.
      Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Thomson Reuters.
    • Darko Gulija
      Misha, I think that it is too much for us to decide how the provider should order the items with the same rank in the user interface (some might want to order
      Message 2 of 11 , May 20, 2009
        Misha,

        I think that it is too much for us to decide how the provider should order the items with the same rank in the user interface (some might want to order them by names, some by codes, some by XML order etc - it falls under "user interface design").

        IMO, we could state that "Order of the Items with the same rank is not specified; Items MAY be ordered within this rank alphabetically by their names if these are available. If some or all of the names are available in multiple languages, the order of the items will depend on the language chosen. Code or XML order could be used as well, to achieve ergonomic design of the user interface."

        2009/5/19 <misha.wolf@...>


        I've remembered that we're thinking of using the rank attribute to indicate whether a content language is primary, secondary, etc.  So here's another try ...
         
        rank (available at the PCL only) is used to indicate the relative importance of items in a list.
         
        Items with a lower value of the rank attribute have a higher importance than items with a higher value of this attribute.  All items with the same value of the rank attribute have the same importance.  All items without a rank attribute have the same importance, which is lower than the importance of all items with this attribute.
         
        If relative importance is being used to determine display order, then:
        -  Items with a lower value of the rank attribute should be displayed before items with a higher value of this attribute.

        -  Items with the same value of the rank attribute should be ordered within this rank alphabetically by their names if these are available. If some or all of the names are available in multiple languages, the order of the items will depend on the language chosen.
        -  All items without a rank attribute should be displayed after all items with this attribute.
         
        Regards,
        Misha
         

        From: Wolf, Misha (M Cont Ent)
        Sent: 18 May 2009 17:10Subject: RE: [newsml-g2] Proposed clarification of 'rank'

        Here's another draft which attempts to be really explicit.  Please note that "before" and "after" indicate a logical ordering.  Depending on the user's language and other UI factors, "before" could result in any of:
        -    above
        -    below
        -    to the left
        -    to the right
        -    further along a concentric spiral
        -    etc
         
        rank (available at the PCL only) is used when it is important that items in a list be displayed in a user interface in a defined order.
         
        Items with a lower value of the rank attribute should be displayed before items with a higher value of the rank attribute.
         
        Items with the same value of the rank attribute should be ordered within this rank alphabetically by their names if these are available.  If some or all of the names are available in multiple languages, the order of the items will depend on the language chosen.
         
        Items without a rank attribute should be treated as if they all had the same rank attribute value and should be displayed after all items that have a rank attribute.
         
        Regards,
        Misha
         

        From: Wolf, Misha (M Cont Ent)
        Sent: 18 May 2009 16:23
        To: 'newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com'
        Subject: Re: [newsml-g2] Proposed clarification of 'rank'

        Hi Michael,
         
        Thanks for your comments.  I don't understand some of them.  It is impossible to provide a meaningful definition of rank without using words such as "after" and/or "before".  The whole purpose of rank is to specify the required order.  What's the point of providing a definition which says nothing about the purpose of the attribute?
         
        I included the mention of seeded and unseeded tennis players to help people understand the treatment of ranked and unranked items.  If you don't think people will understand it, I'll drop it.
         
        Below is a revised wording:
         
        rank (available at the PCL only) is used when it is important that items in a list be displayed in a user interface in a defined order.
         
        Items with a higher rank value should be displayed after items with a lower rank value.
         
        Items with the same rank value should be ordered within this rank alphabetically by their names if these are available.  If some or all of the names are available in multiple languages, the order of the items will depend on the language chosen.
         
        Items without a rank attribute should be treated as if they all have the same rank value and should be displayed after all items that have a rank attribute.
         
        Regards,
        Misha
         


        From: Michael Steidl (IPTC) [mailto:mdirector@...]
        Sent: 18 May 2009 15:56
        To: Wolf, Misha (M Cont Ent); newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [newsml-g2] Proposed clarification of 'rank'

        Hi Misha, my comments below, some inline edits appear in green.

        --------------------------------------------------
        On 18 May 2009 at 14:50  misha.wolf@... wrote:

        At last Friday's IPTC teleconference, I took an action to propose clearer wording for 'rank' in the NewsML-G2 specification. The existing wording is:  
        rank (available at the PCL only) is suitable for use in a Knowledge Item representing a scheme. It is used when it is important that the Child Elements of a particular term are displayed in a user interface in a predefined order.  

        For example, the major currencies could be given a rank of “1”, while all other currencies could be given a rank of “2”. Terms of the same rank are ordered alphabetically by name if this is available. If the name is not available, the terms are ordered by code value.
        Terms without a rank are treated as if they all have the same rank, which is higher than the rank of all other terms.  

        The same concept may have different ranks in different concept trees. A lower rank results in a placement earlier in a display.  
        The proposed wording is:  
        rank (available at the PCL only) is used when it is important that the Child Elements of a particular term are displayed in a user interface in a predefined order.  
        Terms with a higher rank value are displayed after terms with a lower rank value.

        MS: I think we should not specify the visual order at the interface level. For some reasons an interface may require to show the terms in a different ordering (ascending vs descending). The "... in a predefined order. " is sufficient for me.

        Terms of the same rank are ordered within this rank alphabetically by the name in a specific language  if this is available. If the name is not available, the terms are ordered by code value.  

        MS: which code? Be aware that also links have ranks - but no code as value.
        Terms without a rank are treated as if they all have the same rank and are displayed after all terms that have a rank.  

        MS: as the rank is expressed by an integer value we have to refer to this numeric value like "... that have a rank equivalent to the highest numeric rank value of the list".
        It is permissible for multiple terms to have the same rank value.  For example, the major currencies could be given a rank of "1", while all other currencies could be given a rank of "2".  
        The same concept may have different ranks in different concept trees.  

        MS: hm, I think the last sentence only partially applies: as links don't necessarily refer to concepts this statement would not apply - shouldn't we delete it?
        Note: The ordering of terms with and without rank values can be compared to the ordering of seeded and unseeded players prior to a tennis tournament.  

        MS: Hope everbody reading our specs is good in tennis seedings - sorry, I've never been to Wimbledon, can't imagine how this translates to the G2 ranks.

        Michael

        Regards,  
        Misha  
        This email was sent to you by Thomson Reuters, the global news and information company.
        Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Thomson Reuters.

        ==================================================
        Sent by:
        Michael Steidl
        Managing Director of the IPTC <mdirector@...>
        International Press Telecommunications Council
        "Information Technology for News"
        Visit us on the web at  http://www.iptc.org
         

        This email was sent to you by Thomson Reuters, the global news and information company.
        Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Thomson Reuters.


      • misha.wolf@thomsonreuters.com
        Hi Darko, This is what the specification has said for a long time: ________________________________ From: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com
        Message 3 of 11 , May 20, 2009
          Hi Darko,
           
          This is what the specification has said for a long time:
           


          From: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Darko Gulija
          Sent: 20 May 2009 09:38
          To: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [newsml-g2] Proposed clarification of 'rank'

          Misha,

          I think that it is too much for us to decide how the provider should order the items with the same rank in the user interface (some might want to order them by names, some by codes, some by XML order etc - it falls under "user interface design").

          IMO, we could state that "Order of the Items with the same rank is not specified; Items MAY be ordered within this rank alphabetically by their names if these are available. If some or all of the names are available in multiple languages, the order of the items will depend on the language chosen. Code or XML order could be used as well, to achieve ergonomic design of the user interface."

          2009/5/19 <misha.wolf@...>


          I've remembered that we're thinking of using the rank attribute to indicate whether a content language is primary, secondary, etc.  So here's another try ...

          rank (available at the PCL only) is used to indicate the relative importance of items in a list.

          Items with a lower value of the rank attribute have a higher importance than items with a higher value of this attribute.  All items with the same value of the rank attribute have the same importance.  All items without a rank attribute have the same importance, which is lower than the importance of all items with this attribute.

          If relative importance is being used to determine display order, then:
          -  Items with a lower value of the rank attribute should be displayed before items with a higher value of this attribute.

          -  Items with the same value of the rank attribute should be ordered within this rank alphabetically by their names if these are available. If some or all of the names are available in multiple languages, the order of the items will depend on the language chosen.
          -  All items without a rank attribute should be displayed after all items with this attribute.
           
          Regards,
          Misha
           

          From: Wolf, Misha (M Cont Ent)
          Sent: 18 May 2009 17:10Subject: RE: [newsml-g2] Proposed clarification of 'rank'

          Here's another draft which attempts to be really explicit.  Please note that "before" and "after" indicate a logical ordering.  Depending on the user's language and other UI factors, "before" could result in any of:
          -    above
          -    below
          -    to the left
          -    to the right
          -    further along a concentric spiral
          -    etc
           
          rank (available at the PCL only) is used when it is important that items in a list be displayed in a user interface in a defined order.
           
          Items with a lower value of the rank attribute should be displayed before items with a higher value of the rank attribute.
           
          Items with the same value of the rank attribute should be ordered within this rank alphabetically by their names if these are available.  If some or all of the names are available in multiple languages, the order of the items will depend on the language chosen.
           
          Items without a rank attribute should be treated as if they all had the same rank attribute value and should be displayed after all items that have a rank attribute.
           
          Regards,
          Misha
           

          From: Wolf, Misha (M Cont Ent)
          Sent: 18 May 2009 16:23
          To: 'newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com'
          Subject: Re: [newsml-g2] Proposed clarification of 'rank'

          Hi Michael,
           
          Thanks for your comments.  I don't understand some of them.  It is impossible to provide a meaningful definition of rank without using words such as "after" and/or "before".  The whole purpose of rank is to specify the required order.  What's the point of providing a definition which says nothing about the purpose of the attribute?
           
          I included the mention of seeded and unseeded tennis players to help people understand the treatment of ranked and unranked items.  If you don't think people will understand it, I'll drop it.
           
          Below is a revised wording:
           
          rank (available at the PCL only) is used when it is important that items in a list be displayed in a user interface in a defined order.
           
          Items with a higher rank value should be displayed after items with a lower rank value.
           
          Items with the same rank value should be ordered within this rank alphabetically by their names if these are available.  If some or all of the names are available in multiple languages, the order of the items will depend on the language chosen.
           
          Items without a rank attribute should be treated as if they all have the same rank value and should be displayed after all items that have a rank attribute.
           
          Regards,
          Misha
           


          From: Michael Steidl (IPTC) [mailto:mdirector@...]
          Sent: 18 May 2009 15:56
          To: Wolf, Misha (M Cont Ent); newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [newsml-g2] Proposed clarification of 'rank'

          Hi Misha, my comments below, some inline edits appear in green.

          --------------------------------------------------
          On 18 May 2009 at 14:50  misha.wolf@... wrote:

          At last Friday's IPTC teleconference, I took an action to propose clearer wording for 'rank' in the NewsML-G2 specification. The existing wording is:  
          rank (available at the PCL only) is suitable for use in a Knowledge Item representing a scheme. It is used when it is important that the Child Elements of a particular term are displayed in a user interface in a predefined order.  

          For example, the major currencies could be given a rank of “1”, while all other currencies could be given a rank of “2”. Terms of the same rank are ordered alphabetically by name if this is available. If the name is not available, the terms are ordered by code value.
          Terms without a rank are treated as if they all have the same rank, which is higher than the rank of all other terms.  

          The same concept may have different ranks in different concept trees. A lower rank results in a placement earlier in a display.  
          The proposed wording is:  
          rank (available at the PCL only) is used when it is important that the Child Elements of a particular term are displayed in a user interface in a predefined order.  
          Terms with a higher rank value are displayed after terms with a lower rank value.

          MS: I think we should not specify the visual order at the interface level. For some reasons an interface may require to show the terms in a different ordering (ascending vs descending). The "... in a predefined order. " is sufficient for me.

          Terms of the same rank are ordered within this rank alphabetically by the name in a specific language  if this is available. If the name is not available, the terms are ordered by code value.  

          MS: which code? Be aware that also links have ranks - but no code as value.
          Terms without a rank are treated as if they all have the same rank and are displayed after all terms that have a rank.  

          MS: as the rank is expressed by an integer value we have to refer to this numeric value like "... that have a rank equivalent to the highest numeric rank value of the list".
          It is permissible for multiple terms to have the same rank value.  For example, the major currencies could be given a rank of "1", while all other currencies could be given a rank of "2".  
          The same concept may have different ranks in different concept trees.  

          MS: hm, I think the last sentence only partially applies: as links don't necessarily refer to concepts this statement would not apply - shouldn't we delete it?
          Note: The ordering of terms with and without rank values can be compared to the ordering of seeded and unseeded players prior to a tennis tournament.  

          MS: Hope everbody reading our specs is good in tennis seedings - sorry, I've never been to Wimbledon, can't imagine how this translates to the G2 ranks.

          Michael

          Regards,  
          Misha  
          This email was sent to you by Thomson Reuters, the global news and information company.
          Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Thomson Reuters.

          ==================================================
          Sent by:
          Michael Steidl
          Managing Director of the IPTC <mdirector@...>
          International Press Telecommunications Council
          "Information Technology for News"
          Visit us on the web at  http://www.iptc.org
           

          This email was sent to you by Thomson Reuters, the global news and information company.
          Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Thomson Reuters.



          This email was sent to you by Thomson Reuters, the global news and information company.
          Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Thomson Reuters.
        • misha.wolf@thomsonreuters.com
          [That one got away prematurely] Hi Darko, This is what the specification says currently: Terms of the same rank are ordered alphabetically by name if this is
          Message 4 of 11 , May 20, 2009
            [That one got away prematurely]
             
            Hi Darko,
             
            This is what the specification says currently:
             
            Terms of the same rank are ordered alphabetically by name if this is available. If the name is not available, the terms are ordered by code value.
             
            Regards,
            Misha
             

            From: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Darko Gulija
            Sent: 20 May 2009 09:38
            To: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [newsml-g2] Proposed clarification of 'rank'

            Misha,

            I think that it is too much for us to decide how the provider should order the items with the same rank in the user interface (some might want to order them by names, some by codes, some by XML order etc - it falls under "user interface design").

            IMO, we could state that "Order of the Items with the same rank is not specified; Items MAY be ordered within this rank alphabetically by their names if these are available. If some or all of the names are available in multiple languages, the order of the items will depend on the language chosen. Code or XML order could be used as well, to achieve ergonomic design of the user interface."

            2009/5/19 <misha.wolf@...>


            I've remembered that we're thinking of using the rank attribute to indicate whether a content language is primary, secondary, etc.  So here's another try ...

            rank (available at the PCL only) is used to indicate the relative importance of items in a list.

            Items with a lower value of the rank attribute have a higher importance than items with a higher value of this attribute.  All items with the same value of the rank attribute have the same importance.  All items without a rank attribute have the same importance, which is lower than the importance of all items with this attribute.

            If relative importance is being used to determine display order, then:
            -  Items with a lower value of the rank attribute should be displayed before items with a higher value of this attribute.

            -  Items with the same value of the rank attribute should be ordered within this rank alphabetically by their names if these are available. If some or all of the names are available in multiple languages, the order of the items will depend on the language chosen.
            -  All items without a rank attribute should be displayed after all items with this attribute.
             
            Regards,
            Misha
             

            From: Wolf, Misha (M Cont Ent)
            Sent: 18 May 2009 17:10Subject: RE: [newsml-g2] Proposed clarification of 'rank'

            Here's another draft which attempts to be really explicit.  Please note that "before" and "after" indicate a logical ordering.  Depending on the user's language and other UI factors, "before" could result in any of:
            -    above
            -    below
            -    to the left
            -    to the right
            -    further along a concentric spiral
            -    etc
             
            rank (available at the PCL only) is used when it is important that items in a list be displayed in a user interface in a defined order.
             
            Items with a lower value of the rank attribute should be displayed before items with a higher value of the rank attribute.
             
            Items with the same value of the rank attribute should be ordered within this rank alphabetically by their names if these are available.  If some or all of the names are available in multiple languages, the order of the items will depend on the language chosen.
             
            Items without a rank attribute should be treated as if they all had the same rank attribute value and should be displayed after all items that have a rank attribute.
             
            Regards,
            Misha
             

            From: Wolf, Misha (M Cont Ent)
            Sent: 18 May 2009 16:23
            To: 'newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com'
            Subject: Re: [newsml-g2] Proposed clarification of 'rank'

            Hi Michael,
             
            Thanks for your comments.  I don't understand some of them.  It is impossible to provide a meaningful definition of rank without using words such as "after" and/or "before".  The whole purpose of rank is to specify the required order.  What's the point of providing a definition which says nothing about the purpose of the attribute?
             
            I included the mention of seeded and unseeded tennis players to help people understand the treatment of ranked and unranked items.  If you don't think people will understand it, I'll drop it.
             
            Below is a revised wording:
             
            rank (available at the PCL only) is used when it is important that items in a list be displayed in a user interface in a defined order.
             
            Items with a higher rank value should be displayed after items with a lower rank value.
             
            Items with the same rank value should be ordered within this rank alphabetically by their names if these are available.  If some or all of the names are available in multiple languages, the order of the items will depend on the language chosen.
             
            Items without a rank attribute should be treated as if they all have the same rank value and should be displayed after all items that have a rank attribute.
             
            Regards,
            Misha
             


            From: Michael Steidl (IPTC) [mailto:mdirector@...]
            Sent: 18 May 2009 15:56
            To: Wolf, Misha (M Cont Ent); newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [newsml-g2] Proposed clarification of 'rank'

            Hi Misha, my comments below, some inline edits appear in green.

            --------------------------------------------------
            On 18 May 2009 at 14:50  misha.wolf@... wrote:

            At last Friday's IPTC teleconference, I took an action to propose clearer wording for 'rank' in the NewsML-G2 specification. The existing wording is:  
            rank (available at the PCL only) is suitable for use in a Knowledge Item representing a scheme. It is used when it is important that the Child Elements of a particular term are displayed in a user interface in a predefined order.  

            For example, the major currencies could be given a rank of “1”, while all other currencies could be given a rank of “2”. Terms of the same rank are ordered alphabetically by name if this is available. If the name is not available, the terms are ordered by code value.
            Terms without a rank are treated as if they all have the same rank, which is higher than the rank of all other terms.  

            The same concept may have different ranks in different concept trees. A lower rank results in a placement earlier in a display.  
            The proposed wording is:  
            rank (available at the PCL only) is used when it is important that the Child Elements of a particular term are displayed in a user interface in a predefined order.  
            Terms with a higher rank value are displayed after terms with a lower rank value.

            MS: I think we should not specify the visual order at the interface level. For some reasons an interface may require to show the terms in a different ordering (ascending vs descending). The "... in a predefined order. " is sufficient for me.

            Terms of the same rank are ordered within this rank alphabetically by the name in a specific language  if this is available. If the name is not available, the terms are ordered by code value.  

            MS: which code? Be aware that also links have ranks - but no code as value.
            Terms without a rank are treated as if they all have the same rank and are displayed after all terms that have a rank.  

            MS: as the rank is expressed by an integer value we have to refer to this numeric value like "... that have a rank equivalent to the highest numeric rank value of the list".
            It is permissible for multiple terms to have the same rank value.  For example, the major currencies could be given a rank of "1", while all other currencies could be given a rank of "2".  
            The same concept may have different ranks in different concept trees.  

            MS: hm, I think the last sentence only partially applies: as links don't necessarily refer to concepts this statement would not apply - shouldn't we delete it?
            Note: The ordering of terms with and without rank values can be compared to the ordering of seeded and unseeded players prior to a tennis tournament.  

            MS: Hope everbody reading our specs is good in tennis seedings - sorry, I've never been to Wimbledon, can't imagine how this translates to the G2 ranks.

            Michael

            Regards,  
            Misha  
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          • Michael Steidl (IPTC)
            Darko and Misha - the @rank is made for ordering - a user/receiver of an item with many of the same property having @ranks (or not in a mixed mode) must know
            Message 5 of 11 , May 20, 2009
              Darko and Misha

              - the @rank is made for ordering

              - a user/receiver of an item with many of the same property having @ranks (or not in a mixed mode) must know how to order them on his user interface, thus a detailled processing model for ordering is required, at least based on using @rank.

              - we could consider and decide if this PM should include ordering within one rank. I'm inclined to limit the PM to the pure use of rank.

              And in the very end the user/receiver of a G2 item with "ranked" properties is still free to use this ordering for her user interface, or not.

              Michael


              --------------------------------------------------
              On 20 May 2009 at 11:25  misha.wolf@... wrote:



              [That one got away prematurely]  
                 
              Hi Darko,  
                 
              This is what the specification says currently:  
                 
              Terms of the same rank are ordered alphabetically by name if this is available. If the name is not available, the terms are ordered by code value.  
                 
              Regards,  
              Misha
               
               

              From: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Darko Gulija
              Sent: 20 May 2009 09:38
              To: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [newsml-g2] Proposed clarification of 'rank'
              Misha,

              I think that it is too much for us to decide how the provider should order the items with the same rank in the user interface (some might want to order them by names, some by codes, some by XML order etc - it falls under "user interface design").

              IMO, we could state that "Order of the Items with the same rank is not specified;
              Items MAY   be ordered within this rank alphabetically by their names if these are available. If some or all of the names are available in multiple languages, the order of the items will depend on the language chosen.  Code or XML order could be used as well, to achieve ergonomic design of the user interface."

              2009/5/19 <
              misha.wolf@... >


              I've remembered that we're thinking of using the rank attribute to indicate whether a content language is primary, secondary, etc.  So here's another try ...  

              rank (available at the PCL only) is used to indicate the relative importance of items in a list.  

              Items with a lower value of the rank attribute have a higher importance than items with a higher value of this attribute. All items with the same value of the rank attribute have the same importance.  All items without a rank attribute have the same importance, which is lower than the importance of all items with this attribute.  

              If relative importance is being used to determine display order, then:
              -  Items with a lower value of the rank attribute should be displayed before items with a higher value of this attribute.
               
              - Items with the same value of the rank attribute should be ordered within this rank alphabetically by their names if these are available. If some or all of the names are available in multiple languages, the order of the items will depend on the language chosen.
              -  All items without a rank attribute should be displayed after all items with this attribute.
               
              Regards,  
              Misha  

               

              From: Wolf, Misha (M Cont Ent)
              Sent: 18 May 2009 17:10
              To: '
              newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com '
              Subject: RE: [newsml-g2] Proposed clarification of 'rank'

              Here's another draft which attempts to be really explicit.  Please note that "before" and "after" indicate a logical ordering. Depending on the user's language and other UI factors, "before" could result in any of:  
              -   above  
              -   below  
              -   to the left  
              -   to the right  
              -   further along a concentric spiral  
              -   etc  
               
              rank (available at the PCL only) is used when it is important that items in a list be displayed in a user interface in a defined order.
               
              Items with a lower value of the rank attribute should be displayed before items with a higher value of the rank attribute.
               
               
              Items with the same value of the rank attribute should be ordered within this rank alphabetically by their names if these are available.  If some or all of the names are available in multiple languages, the order of the items will depend on the language chosen.
               
              Items without a rank attribute should be treated as if they all had the same rank attribute value and should be displayed after all items that have a rank attribute.
               

               
              Regards,  
              Misha  
               

              From: Wolf, Misha (M Cont Ent)
              Sent: 18 May 2009 16:23
              To: '
              newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com '
              Subject: Re: [newsml-g2] Proposed clarification of 'rank'
              Hi Michael,  
               
              Thanks for your comments.    I don't understand some of them.    It is impossible to provide a meaningful definition of rank without using words such as "after" and/or "before". The whole purpose of rank is to specify the required order. What's the point of providing a definition which says nothing about the purpose of the attribute?  
               
              I included the mention of seeded and unseeded tennis players to help people understand the treatment of ranked and unranked items.  If you don't think people will understand it, I'll drop it.  
               
              Below is a revised wording:  
               
              rank (available at the PCL only) is used when it is important that items in a list be displayed in a user interface in a defined order.
               
              Items with a higher rank value should be displayed after items with a lower rank value.
               
               
              Items with the same rank value should be ordered within this rank alphabetically by their names if these are available.  If some or all of the names are available in multiple languages, the order of the items will depend on the language chosen.
               
              Items without a rank attribute should be treated as if they all have the same rank value and should be displayed after all items that have a rank attribute.
               
              Regards,
               
              Misha  
               


              From: Michael Steidl (IPTC) [mailto: mdirector@... ]
              Sent: 18 May 2009 15:56
              To: Wolf, Misha (M Cont Ent);
              newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [newsml-g2] Proposed clarification of 'rank'
              Hi Misha, my comments below, some inline edits appear in green.  

              --------------------------------------------------
              On 18 May 2009 at 14:50  misha.wolf@...  wrote:

              At last Friday's IPTC teleconference, I took an action to propose clearer wording for 'rank' in the NewsML-G2 specification. The existing wording is:   

              rank (available at the PCL only) is suitable for use in a Knowledge Item representing a scheme. It is used when it is important that the Child Elements of a particular term are displayed in a user interface in a predefined order.   

              For example, the major currencies could be given a rank of “1”, while all other currencies could be given a rank of “2”. Terms of the same rank are ordered alphabetically by name if this is available. If the name is not available, the terms are ordered by code value.  
              Terms without a rank are treated as if they all have the same rank, which is higher than the rank of all other terms.   

              The same concept may have different ranks in different concept trees. A lower rank results in a placement earlier in a display.   

              The proposed wording is:   

              rank (available at the PCL only) is used when it is important that the Child Elements of a particular term are displayed in a user interface in a predefined order.   

              Terms with a higher rank value are displayed after terms with a lower rank value.  

              MS: I think we should not specify the visual order at the interface level. For some reasons an interface may require to show the terms in a different ordering (ascending vs descending). The "... in a predefined order. " is sufficient for me.

              Terms of the same rank are ordered   within this rank   alphabetically by   the   name   in a specific language    if this is available. If the name is not available, the terms are ordered by   code   value.   

              MS: which code? Be aware that also links have ranks - but no code as value.

              Terms without a rank are treated as if they all have the same rank and are displayed after all terms that have a rank.   

              MS: as the rank is expressed by an integer value we have to refer to this numeric value like "... that have a rank equivalent to the highest numeric rank value of the list".

              It is permissible for multiple terms to have the same rank value.  For example, the major currencies could be given a rank of "1", while all other currencies could be given a rank of "2".   

              The same concept may have different ranks in different concept trees.   

              MS: hm, I think the last sentence only partially applies: as links don't necessarily refer to concepts this statement would not apply - shouldn't we delete it?

              Note: The ordering of terms with and without rank values can be compared to the ordering of seeded and unseeded players prior to a tennis tournament.   

              MS: Hope everbody reading our specs is good in tennis seedings - sorry, I've never been to Wimbledon, can't imagine how this translates to the G2 ranks.

              Michael  


              Regards,   
              Misha   


              This email was sent to you by Thomson Reuters, the global news and information company.
              Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Thomson Reuters.

              ==================================================
              Sent by:
              Michael Steidl
              Managing Director of the IPTC < mdirector@... >
              International Press Telecommunications Council
              "Information Technology for News"
              Visit us on the web at  http://www.iptc.org  
               
              This email was sent to you by Thomson Reuters, the global news and information company.
              Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Thomson Reuters.






              This email was sent to you by Thomson Reuters, the global news and information company.
              Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Thomson Reuters.

              ==================================================
              Sent by:
              Michael Steidl
              Managing Director of the IPTC <mdirector@...>
              International Press Telecommunications Council
              "Information Technology for News"
              Visit us on the web at  http://www.iptc.org
               
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