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Properties of a concept

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  • Paul Harman
    Hi, I m examining adopting G2 as a common interchange format between PA content systems. Regarding typical article-based content it s a fairly obvious choice
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 22, 2008
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      Hi,

      I'm examining adopting G2 as a common interchange format between PA
      content systems. Regarding typical article-based content it's a fairly
      obvious choice of standard. However I also want to exchange data 9as
      related to articles) - cinema listings, TV guides, sports results,
      election results, school league tables.

      My particular query is to do with how I can extend conceptItems to add
      new kinds of facts - for example, how many seats a particular cinema
      has. The concept of 'number of seats' could come from a controlled
      vocabulary of 'properties of a cinema', but the /value/ for number of
      seats cannot practically come from a controlled vocabulary. But that's
      not my understanding of how Qcodes work... Shouldn't every Qcode be
      'resolvable' as an item in it's own right?

      Is this where the G2 standard 'ends' and I need to invoke my own XML
      fragments via the extensibility options - or, like NewsML 1.x, is there
      a generic 'Property' element that I've overlooked?

      Paul
    • Michael Steidl (IPTC)
      ... Paul, I just recently discussed something like that with dpa regarding EventsML-G2: - for fine grained descriptions of a concept use the property
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 22, 2008
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        On 22 Dec 2008 at 17:04  Paul Harman wrote:

        > Hi,
        >
        > I'm examining adopting G2 as a common interchange format between PA
        > content systems. Regarding typical article-based content it's a fairly
        > obvious choice of standard. However I also want to exchange data 9as
        > related to articles) - cinema listings, TV guides, sports results,
        > election results, school league tables.
        >
        > My particular query is to do with how I can extend conceptItems to add
        > new kinds of facts - for example, how many seats a particular cinema
        > has. The concept of 'number of seats' could come from a controlled
        > vocabulary of 'properties of a cinema', but the /value/ for number of
        > seats cannot practically come from a controlled vocabulary. But that's
        > not my understanding of how Qcodes work... Shouldn't every Qcode be
        > 'resolvable' as an item in it's own right?

        Paul, I just recently discussed something like that with dpa regarding EventsML-G2:

        - for fine grained descriptions of a concept use the <related> property (be aware: the <facet> is intended to refine the type of the concept, e.g. if the type is "person" you may add the facet "male" to it.)

        - a <related> property provides:
        -- a @rel to express the kind of relationship, e.g. "numberOfSeats"
        -- a @qcode or a @literal for the value

        This way you could add e.g.

        <related rel="poiProps:noOfSeats" literal="83" />

        <related rel="poiProps:operator" qcode="pacompanies:UCI" />

        (What I discussed with dpa: this way you can also add the CEO of a company - and more)

        >
        > Is this where the G2 standard 'ends' and I need to invoke my own XML
        > fragments via the extensibility options - or, like NewsML 1.x, is there
        > a generic 'Property' element that I've overlooked?

        I still consider the G2 design as covering many, many requirements, this way you can avoid introducing new properties, you only have to add the corresponding taxonomies for relationships.

        Michael

        >
        >          Paul
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Any member of this IPTC moderated Yahoo group must comply with the
        > Intellectual Property Policy of the IPTC, available at
        > http://www.iptc.org/goto/ipp. Any posting is assumed to be submitted
        > under the conditions of this IPTC IP Policy.
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        >
        > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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        >


        ==================================================
        Sent by:
        Michael Steidl
        Managing Director of the IPTC <mdirector@...>
        International Press Telecommunications Council
        "Information Technology for News"
        Visit us on the web at  http://www.iptc.org
         
      • Misha Wolf
        For Semantic Web compatibility, it would be better to express the integer using a URI rather than a literal. I m not up to speed with the correct SemWeb
        Message 3 of 9 , Dec 22, 2008
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          For Semantic Web compatibility, it would be better to express the integer using a URI rather than a literal.  I'm not up to speed with the correct SemWeb syntax for this, but I would expect something more like:
           
              <related rel="poiProps:noOfSeats" value="int:83" />
           
          Maybe someone on this list knows the right way to do this in the SemWeb environment.
           
          Misha
           

          From: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Steidl (IPTC)
          Sent: 22 December 2008 17:47
          To: Paul Harman; newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [newsml-g2] Properties of a concept

          On 22 Dec 2008 at 17:04  Paul Harman wrote:

          > Hi,
          >
          > I'm examining adopting G2 as a common interchange format between PA
          > content systems. Regarding typical article-based content it's a fairly
          > obvious choice of standard. However I also want to exchange data 9as
          > related to articles) - cinema listings, TV guides, sports results,
          > election results, school league tables.
          >
          > My particular query is to do with how I can extend conceptItems to add
          > new kinds of facts - for example, how many seats a particular cinema
          > has. The concept of 'number of seats' could come from a controlled
          > vocabulary of 'properties of a cinema', but the /value/ for number of
          > seats cannot practically come from a controlled vocabulary. But that's
          > not my understanding of how Qcodes work... Shouldn't every Qcode be
          > 'resolvable' as an item in it's own right?

          Paul, I just recently discussed something like that with dpa regarding EventsML-G2:

          - for fine grained descriptions of a concept use the <related> property (be aware: the <facet> is intended to refine the type of the concept, e.g. if the type is "person" you may add the facet "male" to it.)

          - a <related> property provides:
          -- a @rel to express the kind of relationship, e.g. "numberOfSeats"
          -- a @qcode or a @literal for the value

          This way you could add e.g.

          <related rel="poiProps:noOfSeats" literal="83" />

          <related rel="poiProps:operator" qcode="pacompanies:UCI" />

          (What I discussed with dpa: this way you can also add the CEO of a company - and more)

          >
          > Is this where the G2 standard 'ends' and I need to invoke my own XML
          > fragments via the extensibility options - or, like NewsML 1.x, is there
          > a generic 'Property' element that I've overlooked?

          I still consider the G2 design as covering many, many requirements, this way you can avoid introducing new properties, you only have to add the corresponding taxonomies for relationships.

          Michael

          >
          >          Paul
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Any member of this IPTC moderated Yahoo group must comply with the
          > Intellectual Property Policy of the IPTC, available at
          > http://www.iptc.org/goto/ipp. Any posting is assumed to be submitted
          > under the conditions of this IPTC IP Policy.
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
          >     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newsml-g2/
          >
          > <*> Your email settings:
          >     Individual Email | Traditional
          >
          > <*> To change settings online go to:
          >     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newsml-g2/join
          >     (Yahoo! ID required)
          >
          > <*> To change settings via email:
          >     mailto:newsml-g2-digest@yahoogroups.com
          >     mailto:newsml-g2-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          >     newsml-g2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
          >     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >


          ==================================================
          Sent by:
          Michael Steidl
          Managing Director of the IPTC <mdirector@...>
          International Press Telecommunications Council
          "Information Technology for News"
          Visit us on the web at  http://www.iptc.org
           

          This email was sent to you by Thomson Reuters, the global news and information company.
          Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Thomson Reuters.
        • darko.gulija@hina.hr
          Michael, First, we already have property in POIdetails, so this would be a logical placeholder for number of seats for a cinema. Second, (on the
          Message 4 of 9 , Dec 22, 2008
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            Michael,

            First, we already have <capacity> property in POIdetails, so this would be a logical placeholder for number of seats for a cinema.

            Second, (on the philosophical level - if a question is in fact "how to express some plain characteristics of a concept that is an integer", and not exactly number of seats), I would rather use <facet> than <related>.

            Facet is defined as "An intrinsic property of a concept", whilst <related> is defined as "An identifier of a related concept, where the relationship is different from elements sameAs, broader, or narrower."

            Number of seats is much more property of a cinema than relation between the concept of cinema and the concept of "135".

            We defined that facet, by default, expresses "isA" relation, but we also provided "@rel" attribute to express some other characteristics (e.g. "hasA" - remember "is a bar" against "has a bar" discussion).

            So, facet like
            <facet rel="myfacets:noOfSeats" literal="5">
            seems quite logical (e.g for a car - which is not a POI, so it does not have <capacity>).

            Another question is how to express the value that is an integer, and not concept itself.

            In POIdetails we defined discrete properties when the value was not the concept, but integer or some other datatypes (e.g. date in born/died for a person etc).

            So, IMO the options are:
            1. Use facet, and treat literal as integer
            2. Define discrete property in your own namespace
            3. Propose extension of the IPTC datatype with new property, if characteristics is universal enough.

            Darko Gulija
            Savjetnik za razvoj IT sustava
            Counsellor for IT strategy and development
            tel: +385 1 48 08 800
            fax: +385 1 48 08 820


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Michael Steidl (IPTC)" <mdirector@...>
            Date: Monday, December 22, 2008 6:42 pm
            Subject: Re: [newsml-g2] Properties of a concept
            To: Paul Harman <paul.harman@...>, newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com


            > On 22 Dec 2008 at 17:04 Paul Harman wrote:
            >
            > > Hi,
            > >
            > > I'm examining adopting G2 as a common interchange format between PA
            > > content systems. Regarding typical article-based content it's a fairly
            > > obvious choice of standard. However I also want to exchange data 9as
            > > related to articles) - cinema listings, TV guides, sports results,
            > > election results, school league tables.
            > >
            > > My particular query is to do with how I can extend conceptItems to
            > add
            > > new kinds of facts - for example, how many seats a particular cinema
            > > has. The concept of 'number of seats' could come from a controlled
            > > vocabulary of 'properties of a cinema', but the /value/ for number
            > of
            > > seats cannot practically come from a controlled vocabulary. But that's
            > > not my understanding of how Qcodes work... Shouldn't every Qcode be
            > > 'resolvable' as an item in it's own right?
            >
            > Paul, I just recently discussed something like that with dpa
            > regarding EventsML-G2:
            >
            > - for fine grained descriptions of a concept use the <related>
            > property (be aware: the <facet>
            > is intended to refine the type of the concept, e.g. if the type is
            > "person" you may add the facet
            > "male" to it.)
            >
            > - a <related> property provides:
            > -- a @rel to express the kind of relationship, e.g. "numberOfSeats"
            > -- a @qcode or a @literal for the value
            >
            > This way you could add e.g.
            >
            > <related rel="poiProps:noOfSeats" literal="83" />
            >
            > <related rel="poiProps:operator" qcode="pacompanies:UCI" />
            >
            > (What I discussed with dpa: this way you can also add the CEO of a
            > company - and more)
            >
            > >
            > > Is this where the G2 standard 'ends' and I need to invoke my own XML
            > > fragments via the extensibility options - or, like NewsML 1.x, is there
            > > a generic 'Property' element that I've overlooked?
            >
            > I still consider the G2 design as covering many, many requirements,
            > this way you can avoid
            > introducing new properties, you only have to add the corresponding
            > taxonomies for
            > relationships.
            >
            > Michael
            >
            > >
            > > Paul
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Any member of this IPTC moderated Yahoo group must comply with the
            > > Intellectual Property Policy of the IPTC, available at
            > > http://www.iptc.org/goto/ipp. Any posting is assumed to be submitted
            > > under the conditions of this IPTC IP Policy.
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > ==================================================
            > Sent by:
            > Michael Steidl
            > Managing Director of the IPTC <mdirector@...>
            > International Press Telecommunications Council
            > "Information Technology for News"
            > Visit us on the web at http://www.iptc.org
            >
            >
          • Laurent LE MEUR
            This is true that, for concept/entity descriptions, NewsML-G2 offers - related = primarily a see also relationship - facet = primarily a is a relationship
            Message 5 of 9 , Dec 23, 2008
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              This is true that, for concept/entity descriptions, NewsML-G2 offers
              - related = primarily a "see also" relationship
              - facet = primarily a "is a" relationship (this place is a restaurant ...)
              - the possibility to use specific properties from other namespaces for other use cases (e.g. RDF properties)

              But the "rel" (relationship) attribute supported by both <related> and <facet> makes the choice more problematic because itcan change the semantics of the property.

              I would propose the following guideline :
              - use related when the value is a concept identified by a URI, part of a network of concepts in a knowledge base (be careful : this is NOT the way EventsML structure have been designed; and the explicit property person->affiliation->organization neither fits this pattern).
              - use facet for subclassing concepts (this location is a city ...)
              - use other properties for typed values, especially integers. This is your case, Paul.

              Laurent

              -----Message d'origine-----
              De : newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com] De la part de darko.gulija@...
              Envoyé : mardi 23 décembre 2008 01:41
              À : newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com
              Objet : Re: [newsml-g2] Properties of a concept

              Michael,

              First, we already have <capacity> property in POIdetails, so this would be a logical placeholder for number of seats for a cinema.

              Second, (on the philosophical level - if a question is in fact "how to express some plain characteristics of a concept that is an integer", and not exactly number of seats), I would rather use <facet> than <related>.

              Facet is defined as "An intrinsic property of a concept", whilst <related> is defined as "An identifier of a related concept, where the relationship is different from elements sameAs, broader, or narrower."

              Number of seats is much more property of a cinema than relation between the concept of cinema and the concept of "135".

              We defined that facet, by default, expresses "isA" relation, but we also provided "@rel" attribute to express some other characteristics (e.g. "hasA" - remember "is a bar" against "has a bar" discussion).

              So, facet like
              <facet rel="myfacets:noOfSeats" literal="5">
              seems quite logical (e.g for a car - which is not a POI, so it does not have <capacity>).

              Another question is how to express the value that is an integer, and not concept itself.

              In POIdetails we defined discrete properties when the value was not the concept, but integer or some other datatypes (e.g. date in born/died for a person etc).

              So, IMO the options are:
              1. Use facet, and treat literal as integer
              2. Define discrete property in your own namespace
              3. Propose extension of the IPTC datatype with new property, if characteristics is universal enough.

              Darko Gulija
              Savjetnik za razvoj IT sustava
              Counsellor for IT strategy and development
              tel: +385 1 48 08 800
              fax: +385 1 48 08 820


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Michael Steidl (IPTC)" <mdirector@...>
              Date: Monday, December 22, 2008 6:42 pm
              Subject: Re: [newsml-g2] Properties of a concept
              To: Paul Harman <paul.harman@...>, newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com


              > On 22 Dec 2008 at 17:04 Paul Harman wrote:
              >
              > > Hi,
              > >
              > > I'm examining adopting G2 as a common interchange format between PA
              > > content systems. Regarding typical article-based content it's a fairly
              > > obvious choice of standard. However I also want to exchange data 9as
              > > related to articles) - cinema listings, TV guides, sports results,
              > > election results, school league tables.
              > >
              > > My particular query is to do with how I can extend conceptItems to
              > add
              > > new kinds of facts - for example, how many seats a particular cinema
              > > has. The concept of 'number of seats' could come from a controlled
              > > vocabulary of 'properties of a cinema', but the /value/ for number
              > of
              > > seats cannot practically come from a controlled vocabulary. But that's
              > > not my understanding of how Qcodes work... Shouldn't every Qcode be
              > > 'resolvable' as an item in it's own right?
              >
              > Paul, I just recently discussed something like that with dpa
              > regarding EventsML-G2:
              >
              > - for fine grained descriptions of a concept use the <related>
              > property (be aware: the <facet>
              > is intended to refine the type of the concept, e.g. if the type is
              > "person" you may add the facet
              > "male" to it.)
              >
              > - a <related> property provides:
              > -- a @rel to express the kind of relationship, e.g. "numberOfSeats"
              > -- a @qcode or a @literal for the value
              >
              > This way you could add e.g.
              >
              > <related rel="poiProps:noOfSeats" literal="83" />
              >
              > <related rel="poiProps:operator" qcode="pacompanies:UCI" />
              >
              > (What I discussed with dpa: this way you can also add the CEO of a
              > company - and more)
              >
              > >
              > > Is this where the G2 standard 'ends' and I need to invoke my own XML
              > > fragments via the extensibility options - or, like NewsML 1.x, is there
              > > a generic 'Property' element that I've overlooked?
              >
              > I still consider the G2 design as covering many, many requirements,
              > this way you can avoid
              > introducing new properties, you only have to add the corresponding
              > taxonomies for
              > relationships.
              >
              > Michael
              >
              > >
              > > Paul
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Any member of this IPTC moderated Yahoo group must comply with the
              > > Intellectual Property Policy of the IPTC, available at
              > > http://www.iptc.org/goto/ipp. Any posting is assumed to be submitted
              > > under the conditions of this IPTC IP Policy.
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > ==================================================
              > Sent by:
              > Michael Steidl
              > Managing Director of the IPTC <mdirector@...>
              > International Press Telecommunications Council
              > "Information Technology for News"
              > Visit us on the web at http://www.iptc.org
              >
              >

              ------------------------------------

              Any member of this IPTC moderated Yahoo group must comply with the Intellectual Property Policy of the IPTC, available at http://www.iptc.org/goto/ipp. Any posting is assumed to be submitted under the conditions of this IPTC IP Policy.
              Yahoo! Groups Links



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            • Michael Steidl (IPTC)
              Darko sorry, your recommendation to use does not validate: facet has not @literal by the specs. Michael ...
              Message 6 of 9 , Dec 23, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Darko

                sorry, your recommendation to use <facet rel="myfacets:noOfSeats" literal="5"> does not validate: facet has not @literal by the specs.

                Michael

                On 23 Dec 2008 at 1:40  darko.gulija@... wrote:

                > Michael,
                >
                > First, we already have <capacity> property in POIdetails, so this would
                > be a logical placeholder for number of seats for a cinema.
                >
                > Second, (on the philosophical level - if a question is in fact "how to
                > express some plain characteristics of a concept that is an integer", and
                > not exactly number of seats), I would rather use <facet> than
                > <related>.
                >
                > Facet is defined as "An intrinsic property of a concept", whilst
                > <related> is defined as "An identifier of a related concept, where the
                > relationship is different from elements sameAs, broader, or narrower."
                >
                > Number of seats is much more property of a cinema than relation between
                > the concept of cinema and the concept of "135".
                >
                > We defined that facet, by default, expresses "isA" relation, but we also
                > provided "@rel" attribute to express some other characteristics (e.g.
                > "hasA" - remember "is a bar" against "has a bar" discussion).
                >
                > So, facet like
                > <facet rel="myfacets:noOfSeats" literal="5">
                > seems quite logical (e.g for a car - which is not a POI, so it does not
                > have <capacity>).
                >
                > Another question is how to express the value that is an integer, and not
                > concept itself.
                >
                > In POIdetails we defined discrete properties when the value was not the
                > concept, but integer or some other datatypes (e.g. date in born/died for
                > a person etc).
                >
                > So, IMO the options are:
                > 1. Use facet, and treat literal as integer
                > 2. Define discrete property in your own namespace
                > 3. Propose extension of the IPTC datatype with new property, if
                > characteristics is universal enough.
                >
                > Darko Gulija
                > Savjetnik za razvoj IT sustava
                > Counsellor for IT strategy and development
                > tel: +385 1 48 08 800
                > fax: +385 1 48 08 820
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Michael Steidl (IPTC)" <mdirector@...>
                > Date: Monday, December 22, 2008 6:42 pm
                > Subject: Re: [newsml-g2] Properties of a concept
                > To: Paul Harman <paul.harman@...>,
                > newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                > > On 22 Dec 2008 at 17:04  Paul Harman wrote:
                > > 
                > >  > Hi,
                > >  >
                > >  > I'm examining adopting G2 as a common interchange format between
                > PA
                > >  > content systems. Regarding typical article-based content it's a
                > fairly
                > >  > obvious choice of standard. However I also want to exchange data
                > 9as
                > >  > related to articles) - cinema listings, TV guides, sports results,
                > >  > election results, school league tables.
                > >  >
                > >  > My particular query is to do with how I can extend conceptItems to
                > > add
                > >  > new kinds of facts - for example, how many seats a particular
                > cinema
                > >  > has. The concept of 'number of seats' could come from a controlled
                > >  > vocabulary of 'properties of a cinema', but the /value/ for number
                > > of
                > >  > seats cannot practically come from a controlled vocabulary. But
                > that's
                > >  > not my understanding of how Qcodes work... Shouldn't every Qcode
                > be
                > >  > 'resolvable' as an item in it's own right?
                > > 
                > >  Paul, I just recently discussed something like that with dpa
                > > regarding EventsML-G2:
                > > 
                > >  - for fine grained descriptions of a concept use the <related>
                > > property (be aware: the <facet>
                > >  is intended to refine the type of the concept, e.g. if the type is
                > > "person" you may add the facet
                > >  "male" to it.)
                > > 
                > >  - a <related> property provides:
                > >  -- a @rel to express the kind of relationship, e.g. "numberOfSeats"
                > >  -- a @qcode or a @literal for the value
                > > 
                > >  This way you could add e.g.
                > > 
                > >  <related rel="poiProps:noOfSeats" literal="83" />
                > > 
                > >  <related rel="poiProps:operator" qcode="pacompanies:UCI" />
                > > 
                > >  (What I discussed with dpa: this way you can also add the CEO of a
                > > company - and more)
                > > 
                > >  >
                > >  > Is this where the G2 standard 'ends' and I need to invoke my own
                > XML
                > >  > fragments via the extensibility options - or, like NewsML 1.x, is
                > there
                > >  > a generic 'Property' element that I've overlooked?
                > > 
                > >  I still consider the G2 design as covering many, many requirements,
                > > this way you can avoid
                > >  introducing new properties, you only have to add the corresponding
                > > taxonomies for
                > >  relationships.
                > > 
                > >  Michael
                > > 
                > >  >
                > >  >   Paul
                > >  >
                > >  > ------------------------------------
                > >  >
                > >  > Any member of this IPTC moderated Yahoo group must comply with the
                > >  > Intellectual Property Policy of the IPTC, available at
                > >  > http://www.iptc.org/goto/ipp. Any posting is assumed to be
                > submitted
                > >  > under the conditions of this IPTC IP Policy.
                > >  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >  >
                > >  >
                > >  >
                > >  >
                > > 
                > > 
                > >  ==================================================
                > >  Sent by:
                > >  Michael Steidl
                > >  Managing Director of the IPTC <mdirector@...>
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              • Paul Harman
                From: Michael Steidl (IPTC) [mailto:mdirector@iptc.org] ... Hmmm. These two things do not seem to be expressing the same type of information. The second I can
                Message 7 of 9 , Dec 23, 2008
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                  From: Michael Steidl (IPTC) [mailto:mdirector@...]
                  > This way you could add e.g.
                  > <related rel="poiProps:noOfSeats" literal="83" />
                  > <related rel="poiProps:operator" qcode="pacompanies:UCI" />


                  Hmmm. These two things do not seem to be expressing the same type of
                  information. The second I can see as a relatioship between a cinema and
                  it's operator - i.e. between two conceptItems, or things that could be
                  modelled as conceptItems. However I don't think the number 83 is a
                  credible concept - it's rather abstract, evben more som than emotions
                  that are represented as concepts for describing images and videos - so
                  using related feels wrong to me.

                  Darko's suggestion of using facet (which I think may not be valid per
                  the specs) feels more 'right' to me. It's a property [or facet] of the
                  cinema that it has 83 seats, rather than a relationship between the
                  cinema and the number 83 of type 'numberOfSeats'. In NewsML1.x I would
                  have modelled this as <Property FormalName="NumberOfSeats" Value="83"/>
                  but there doesn't seem to be an equivalent comfortable mechanism here.

                  (Okay, so POI already has a 'capacity' element, which is great, I'll use
                  that - but the point generalises).

                  Paul
                • Michael Steidl (IPTC)
                  ... Paul has no specific semantics - except that it refers to something with a kind of relationship which is indicated by @rel. The problem with
                  Message 8 of 9 , Dec 23, 2008
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                    On 23 Dec 2008 at 10:13  Paul Harman wrote:

                    > From: Michael Steidl (IPTC) [mailto:mdirector@...]
                    > > This way you could add e.g.
                    > >       <related rel="poiProps:noOfSeats" literal="83" />
                    > >       <related rel="poiProps:operator" qcode="pacompanies:UCI" />
                    >
                    >
                    > Hmmm. These two things do not seem to be expressing the same type of
                    > information. The second I can see as a relatioship between a cinema and
                    > it's operator - i.e. between two conceptItems, or things that could be
                    > modelled as conceptItems. However I don't think the number 83 is a
                    > credible concept - it's rather abstract, evben more som than emotions
                    > that are represented as concepts for describing images and videos - so
                    > using related feels wrong to me.
                    >
                    > Darko's suggestion of using facet (which I think may not be valid per
                    > the specs) feels more 'right' to me. It's a property [or facet] of the
                    > cinema that it has 83 seats, rather than a relationship between the
                    > cinema and the number 83 of type 'numberOfSeats'. In NewsML1.x I would
                    > have modelled this as <Property FormalName="NumberOfSeats" Value="83"/>
                    > but there doesn't seem to be an equivalent comfortable mechanism here.

                    Paul

                    <related> has no specific semantics - except that it refers to something with a kind of relationship which is indicated by @rel.

                    The problem with <facet> is that is has no @literal attribute - thus Darko's proposal does not validate.

                    In general: all the properties of an item must resolve to an RDF triple (this was an initial business requirement for G2) - subject / predicate / object:

                    - the subject is always a part of "this" item, that could be the item as a whole or parts of it like a specific rendition, a part of a rendition, e.g. the paragraph of an article.

                    - the predicate is the semantics of a property. E.g. <subject> translates to a predicate like "isAbout". And at this point all properties with a @rel attribute have a special role: they act as a generic container, the precise predicate is expressed by the value of the @rel. In this sense <related> is the most generic container, while a property like <facet> already scopes the relationships which make sense at this point.

                    - and finally the object is the value of the property, expressed either as a code from a controlled vocabulary or a literal value

                    This way one could express a property as an RDF triple in N3 notation as well:

                    ConceptInThisItem hasNoOfSeats 83 .

                    ConceptInThisItem hasOperator UCI .

                    You see, 83 is a valid object of such a triple as UCI is. Therefore I can not agree with you that "83 is not a credible concept".

                    Michael

                    >
                    > (Okay, so POI already has a 'capacity' element, which is great, I'll
                    > use
                    > that - but the point generalises).
                    >
                    >          Paul
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
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                    ==================================================
                    Sent by:
                    Michael Steidl
                    Managing Director of the IPTC <mdirector@...>
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                    "Information Technology for News"
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                  • Laurent LE MEUR
                    The object of a triple is not always a concept (a resource in RDF terms). It can be a literal value, and this is the case for the number of seats. To force
                    Message 9 of 9 , Dec 23, 2008
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                      The object of a triple is not always a concept (a “resource” in RDF terms). It can be a “literal” value, and this is the case for the number of seats.

                      To force a literal to be a resource identifier (e.g. facet=”nbseats:83”) is a non-sense for me.

                      Laurent

                       

                      De : newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com] De la part de Michael Steidl (IPTC)
                      Envoyé : mardi 23 décembre 2008 13:30
                      À : Paul Harman; newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com
                      Objet : RE: [newsml-g2] Properties of a concept

                       

                      On 23 Dec 2008 at 10:13  Paul Harman wrote:

                       

                      > From: Michael Steidl (IPTC) [mailto:mdirector@...]

                      > > This way you could add e.g.

                      > >       <related rel="poiProps:noOfSeats" literal="83" />

                      > >       <related rel="poiProps:operator" qcode="pacompanies:UCI" />

                      >

                      >

                      > Hmmm. These two things do not seem to be expressing the same type of

                      > information. The second I can see as a relatioship between a cinema and

                      > it's operator - i.e. between two conceptItems, or things that could be

                      > modelled as conceptItems. However I don't think the number 83 is a

                      > credible concept - it's rather abstract, evben more som than emotions

                      > that are represented as concepts for describing images and videos - so

                      > using related feels wrong to me.

                      >

                      > Darko's suggestion of using facet (which I think may not be valid per

                      > the specs) feels more 'right' to me. It's a property [or facet] of the

                      > cinema that it has 83 seats, rather than a relationship between the

                      > cinema and the number 83 of type 'numberOfSeats'. In NewsML1.x I would

                      > have modelled this as <Property FormalName="NumberOfSeats" Value="83"/>

                      > but there doesn't seem to be an equivalent comfortable mechanism here.

                       

                      Paul

                       

                      <related> has no specific semantics - except that it refers to something with a kind of relationship which is indicated by @rel.

                       

                      The problem with <facet> is that is has no @literal attribute - thus Darko's proposal does not validate.

                       

                      In general: all the properties of an item must resolve to an RDF triple (this was an initial business requirement for G2) - subject / predicate / object:

                       

                      - the subject is always a part of "this" item, that could be the item as a whole or parts of it like a specific rendition, a part of a rendition, e.g. the paragraph of an article.

                       

                      - the predicate is the semantics of a property. E.g. <subject> translates to a predicate like "isAbout". And at this point all properties with a @rel attribute have a special role: they act as a generic container, the precise predicate is expressed by the value of the @rel. In this sense <related> is the most generic container, while a property like <facet> already scopes the relationships which make sense at this point.

                       

                      - and finally the object is the value of the property, expressed either as a code from a controlled vocabulary or a literal value

                       

                      This way one could express a property as an RDF triple in N3 notation as well:

                       

                      ConceptInThisItem hasNoOfSeats 83 .

                       

                      ConceptInThisItem hasOperator UCI .

                       

                      You see, 83 is a valid object of such a triple as UCI is. Therefore I can not agree with you that "83 is not a credible concept".

                       

                      Michael

                       

                      >

                      > (Okay, so POI already has a 'capacity' element, which is great, I'll

                      > use

                      > that - but the point generalises).

                      >

                      >          Paul

                      >

                      > ------------------------------------

                      >

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                      >

                       

                       

                      ==================================================

                      Sent by:

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                      International Press Telecommunications Council

                      "Information Technology for News"

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