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RE: [newsml-g2] Should I use Links or Packages?

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  • Paul Harman
    From: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Darko Gulija ... package ... This seems like a lot of maintenance overhead to
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 17, 2008
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      From: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of Darko Gulija
      > For all kinds of grouping (mutually independent) things together,
      package
      > is the right mechanism to use.



      This seems like a lot of maintenance overhead to me. Any news story we
      publish is likely to have related pictures, stories, videos etc
      associated with it. Does this mean we have to create a package for every
      story? Things then get confusing as the "same story" has 2 newsItems and
      2 sets of management information associated with it - the piece for the
      item itself, and the piece for the package so we can link other items to
      it.

      Where we explicitly publish a collection of items - likely to be an
      editorially driven assembly of pre-published newsItems - I see the value
      of using packageItem. But where the relationships are more ad-hoc and
      evolutionary, as in traditional wire services where items exist in their
      own right but reference other items in the wire service, having to wrap
      all of them with packageItems seems cumbersome.

      Paul

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    • Michael Steidl (IPTC)
      Paul I would like to point at my last paragraph: links leave it to the customer to collect the full content by following links - including misinterpretations
      Message 2 of 18 , Sep 17, 2008
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        Paul

        I would like to point at my last paragraph: links leave it to the customer to collect the full content by following links - including misinterpretations of links - , packages are made by the news publisher under its control. This is an advantage I guess.

        I can not fully follow the advantage you see in using links: If PA sends out a "Top 10" news item with many links you also have to update this item e.g. hourly. So why not send out a package item?

        And as outlined in my design examples you can build your package item without using any sub-package items, only with links to existing news items.

        Again, I see no good reason for not using package items, as there is no advantage of doing it differently.

        Michael


        On 17 Sep 2008 at 11:28  Paul Harman wrote:

        > From: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com] On
        > Behalf Of Darko Gulija
        > > For all kinds of grouping (mutually independent) things together,
        > package
        > > is the right mechanism to use.
        >
        >
        >
        > This seems like a lot of maintenance overhead to me. Any news story we
        > publish is likely to have related pictures, stories, videos etc
        > associated with it. Does this mean we have to create a package for
        > every
        > story? Things then get confusing as the "same story" has 2 newsItems
        > and
        > 2 sets of management information associated with it - the piece for the
        > item itself, and the piece for the package so we can link other items
        > to
        > it.
        >
        > Where we explicitly publish a collection of items - likely to be an
        > editorially driven assembly of pre-published newsItems - I see the
        > value
        > of using packageItem. But where the relationships are more ad-hoc and
        > evolutionary, as in traditional wire services where items exist in
        > their
        > own right but reference other items in the wire service, having to wrap
        > all of them with packageItems seems cumbersome.
        >
        >          Paul
        >
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        ==================================================
        Sent by:
        Michael Steidl
        Managing Director of the IPTC <mdirector@...>
        International Press Telecommunications Council
        "Information Technology for News"
        Visit us on the web at  http://www.iptc.org
         
      • Paul Harman
        From: Michael Steidl (IPTC) [mailto:mdirector@iptc.org] ... PA has 2 different service models. For our traditional media customers, we run a traditional wire
        Message 3 of 18 , Sep 17, 2008
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          From: Michael Steidl (IPTC) [mailto:mdirector@...]
          > I can not fully follow the advantage you see in using links: If PA
          > sends out a "Top 10" news item with many links you also have to
          > update this item e.g. hourly. So why not send out a package item?


          PA has 2 different service models.

          For our traditional media customers, we run a traditional wire service.
          Articles, photos and videos are produced independently and transmitted
          as stand-alone items for our customers to consume and use as they see
          fit. Obviously, PA knows which pictures have been taken to illuminate
          which stories, and so forth. In this model, I see the power of using
          links to say "you might also be interested in this piece of content on
          the same theme". Links get inferred automatically by our transmission
          system, by associating items according to their metadata.

          For internet customers, we've found that they want a more "web ready"
          service, where PA assembles explicit collections, all edited to fit a
          fairy generic "shape" for news. Stories are a standard length; each
          story has 3 pictures in standard shapes; stories might have one or more
          videos. Collections of stories on specified themes - news, sport,
          showbiz - are put together and items in those collections are ranked
          against each other. These collections are edited to shape by our
          journalists, and the journalists them explicitly choose which 3 pictures
          to use and choose the appropriate crop of each picture. It's a more
          tailored service. This fits well with the package metaphor.

          My concerns are:

          1. In the first model, there would be an explosion of packageItems in
          order to model the relationships, and there would inevitably be
          confusion between identifiers for the story at the root of the tree, and
          the packageItem representing the relationships. Either that, or there's
          just one packageitem to represent the whole tree? Our thinking has been
          that there would be one *event* drawing everything together, so we'd be
          looking to EventsML to glue things together at the event level, not
          packageItems.

          2. If we adopt item links on model 1 and packages in model 2, we will be
          in the situation where the same relationship (parent story with child
          picture) is represented differently in each service. If model 1 is
          right, would it not make sense to use a packageItem to collect the
          top-level stories only, and let item links draw in the children?


          If model 1 is wrong, then it follows that it should be wrong for an
          itemRef to refer to a NewsML-G2 document... i.e. I'm not really sure
          what itemRef is *for*, other than pointing to non-NewsML references on
          the web.

          I think it would be wrong if there were 2 ways to do the same thing;
          NewsML 1.x's downfall was that it was so wide open you could do anything
          and so there was effectively no interchange. I'm sure this is simply my
          misunderstanding :-)

          Paul

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        • Michael Steidl (IPTC)
          Paul knowing what other agencies do I think you product design is quite common - at least for many European agencies. See more comment below next to your
          Message 4 of 18 , Sep 17, 2008
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            Paul

            knowing what other agencies do I think you product design is quite common - at least for many European agencies. 

            See more comment below next to your concerns.

            On 17 Sep 2008 at 12:27  Paul Harman wrote:

            > From: Michael Steidl (IPTC) [mailto:mdirector@...]
            > > I can not fully follow the advantage you see in using links: If PA
            > > sends out a "Top 10" news item with many links you also have to
            > > update this item e.g. hourly. So why not send out a package item?
            >
            >
            > PA has 2 different service models.
            >
            > For our traditional media customers, we run a traditional wire service.
            > Articles, photos and videos are produced independently and transmitted
            > as stand-alone items for our customers to consume and use as they see
            > fit. Obviously, PA knows which pictures have been taken to illuminate
            > which stories, and so forth. In this model, I see the power of using
            > links to say "you might also be interested in this piece of content on
            > the same theme". Links get inferred automatically by our transmission
            > system, by associating items according to their metadata.
            >
            > For internet customers, we've found that they want a more "web ready"
            > service, where PA assembles explicit collections, all edited to fit a
            > fairy generic "shape" for news. Stories are a standard length; each
            > story has 3 pictures in standard shapes; stories might have one or more
            > videos. Collections of stories on specified themes - news, sport,
            > showbiz - are put together and items in those collections are ranked
            > against each other. These collections are edited to shape by our
            > journalists, and the journalists them explicitly choose which 3
            > pictures
            > to use and choose the appropriate crop of each picture. It's a more
            > tailored service. This fits well with the package metaphor.
            >
            > My concerns are:
            >
            > 1. In the first model, there would be an explosion of packageItems in
            > order to model the relationships, and there would inevitably be
            > confusion between identifiers for the story at the root of the tree,
            > and
            > the packageItem representing the relationships. Either that, or there's
            > just one packageitem to represent the whole tree?

            By my design enumerated as a) in my previous mail there is only one package item with one identifier to represent a tree of dozens of items, well grouped.

            > Our thinking has been
            > that there would be one *event* drawing everything together, so we'd be
            > looking to EventsML to glue things together at the event level, not
            > packageItems.

            Hm, another consideration pondered by other agencies as well: there are again 2 ways to implement this:

            a) the "do it yourself" way for your customers:

            Step 1: create an event item (to be precise: a concept item of type event) with a conceptId for this event

            Step 2: apply this conceptId of the event as QCode value of a <subject> property to all stories, photos, diagrams etc which relate to this event.

            This way your customer has to filter the feed for event items, review them and if they are attracted by one they could use the conceptId of the event to filter all news items sent out by PA.


            b) the "cooked myself" way of news agencies:

            Step 1: create an event item, see above

            Step 2: apply this conceptId ... se above

            Step 3: create a package item with the event item in a root group and with one or more sub- groups with content related to the event. Pulling together this event can be done by the events conceptId, but the advantage is, that PA can select and group the content as you feel it helps your customer to use it.

            Further I think version a) could be used on your traditional news wire while option b) could support better your "web savvy" approach.

            >
            > 2. If we adopt item links on model 1 and packages in model 2, we will
            > be
            > in the situation where the same relationship (parent story with child
            > picture) is represented differently in each service. If model 1 is
            > right, would it not make sense to use a packageItem to collect the
            > top-level stories only, and let item links draw in the children?

            Paul, I can only reiterate:

            - one item may have many links: which one has to be followed by the customer to pull together the "virtual package"?

            - a package item providers better control for both sides: the news provider can control what he thinks should pertain to a package and the consumer can rest assured that he got all particles  of a package of content when he receives a package item. The alternative for the receiver is - I guess this is the right English saying - "herding a pack of cats" - or sitting with a fishing rod waiting for the right items to be hooked.

            - finally there is this "late binding" advantage of package items - think of this: there is a story and a photo, the editor decides to associate the photo to the story, ok so far. Then 15 minutes after releasing both story and photo another photo arrives at the desk of the editor and she thinks: this would fit perfectly to the story and photo I've just sent out. What to do: a) to create a new version of the story and add a link to the new photo? Or to add a link from the photo to the story item ? - this would obfuscate the root of the content tree.

            >
            >
            > If model 1 is wrong, then it follows that it should be wrong for an
            > itemRef to refer to a NewsML-G2 document... i.e. I'm not really sure
            > what itemRef is *for*, other than pointing to non-NewsML references on
            > the web.
            >

            The "itemRef" of a package item is a "reference to a target item or web resource" - thus primarily made to point at other G2 items, optionally at web resources.

            And it is one of the basic designs of the G2 standards to reuse what is equal, and yes an itemRef and a link are equal in expressing a relationship. But an itemRef has a clear context: the relationship is "this is a part of a package of content", while the link could be any kind of relationship.


            > I think it would be wrong if there were 2 ways to do the same thing;
            > NewsML 1.x's downfall was that it was so wide open you could do
            > anything
            > and so there was effectively no interchange. I'm sure this is simply my
            > misunderstanding :-)

            I fully agree, this is why the NAR developers have created the package item to package and convey a set of items and requests NewsML-G2 users to use it - and not the link of an item. Before you start throwing things at NewsML-G2's bad design I have to emphasize that the relationship of the items of a package is certainly also a kind of relationship, so one could infer this must be expressed by a link, but on the other hand creating a package item for this specific purpose could not end in excluding any feature from NewsML-G2 which allows to express (other) relationships between items.

            Finally: I like the Guiness Book of Records, it is fun reading but also makes me pondering: there is a record for driving a car backward. I guess we all agree the primary intention for cars is to drive forward, but it is also true nobody can hold anybody from driving a car backward, even for miles and miles and miles... So what, throwing stones at the one who invented the reverse gear?

            Michael

            >
            >          Paul
            >
            > This e-mail is from the PA Group.  For more information, see
            > www.thepagroup.com.
            > This e-mail may contain confidential information. 
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            > use this email or any attachments. 
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            > monitoring for operational reasons or for lawful business practices.
            >
            >
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            ==================================================
            Sent by:
            Michael Steidl
            Managing Director of the IPTC <mdirector@...>
            International Press Telecommunications Council
            "Information Technology for News"
            Visit us on the web at  http://www.iptc.org
             
          • Darko Gulija
            Paul, My (personal) view on this is: If relations to something are fixed and seen as property of a newsItem (e.g. related pictures, videos, newsitems, like
            Message 5 of 18 , Sep 17, 2008
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              Paul,

              My (personal) view on this is:

              If relations to something are fixed and seen as property of a newsItem (e.g.
              related pictures, videos, newsitems, like "seeAlso"), then it is better to
              put these relations in the item using links. That way, whenever the user
              opens the item, it is also presented with all the related content.

              However, you might need to update the item more frequently just because
              there is more related stuff out there, although the content of the item has
              not changed. Furthermore, if you put these links in every item (and not just
              into the "leading" newsItem), they all have to get updated whenever new
              information related to them is published.

              So, in that case, having a package seems to be a better solution, because
              you only update a package whenever there is new information available, and
              individual newsItems remain unchanged, but then your customers should use
              that packageItem, and not individual newsItems.

              On our web we have solved that problem by implementing all links to work in
              two-way manner: whenever there is link in a newer item pointing to the older
              one, there is also a link generated in the older one pointing back. Of
              course, you could implement that only in a highly controlled environment.

              For collections such as "top 10 business news of the hour", package is
              clearly a preferred option, because grouping is volatile and has no
              connection with the content of any individual newsItem.

              However, if you create and ship to your users pre-formatted web page for
              this, then again I would use newsItem with links.

              There is also a question: why you want all this relations to be "fixed"
              (meaning written explicitly in some item), and not created dynamically on
              customers side using metadata ?

              E.g. for the events, you could simply put a qcode that identifies the event
              as the subject into any newsItem about that event, and customers would very
              easy group all the data about that event.

              Of course, you may also want to create a package containing all the
              information about that event, and update it as necessary.

              You can even create a preformatted web page, publish it as a newsItem, put
              links to all the resources necessary for it to display and publish it.

              The problem is not the technology: when recipient gets any of the items, it
              should know what to do with it (and this is unambiguous).

              But, you have to choose the business model that works best in your
              environment, and there is no way to standardize that, because there is
              simply too much options available.

              I'm hope that this answer, if it did not help, didn't create more confusion
              in your thoughts either.

              Best regards,

              =================================================================
              Darko.Gulija@...
              IT Manager / Voditelj informatike 
              tel:  +385 1 48 08 800
              fax:  +385 1 48 08 820
              Croatian News Agency (HINA)    


              -----Original Message-----
              From: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              Of Paul Harman
              Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 1:28 PM
              To: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [newsml-g2] Should I use Links or Packages?

              From: Michael Steidl (IPTC) [mailto:mdirector@...]
              > I can not fully follow the advantage you see in using links: If PA
              > sends out a "Top 10" news item with many links you also have to
              > update this item e.g. hourly. So why not send out a package item?


              PA has 2 different service models.

              For our traditional media customers, we run a traditional wire service.
              Articles, photos and videos are produced independently and transmitted
              as stand-alone items for our customers to consume and use as they see
              fit. Obviously, PA knows which pictures have been taken to illuminate
              which stories, and so forth. In this model, I see the power of using
              links to say "you might also be interested in this piece of content on
              the same theme". Links get inferred automatically by our transmission
              system, by associating items according to their metadata.

              For internet customers, we've found that they want a more "web ready"
              service, where PA assembles explicit collections, all edited to fit a
              fairy generic "shape" for news. Stories are a standard length; each
              story has 3 pictures in standard shapes; stories might have one or more
              videos. Collections of stories on specified themes - news, sport,
              showbiz - are put together and items in those collections are ranked
              against each other. These collections are edited to shape by our
              journalists, and the journalists them explicitly choose which 3 pictures
              to use and choose the appropriate crop of each picture. It's a more
              tailored service. This fits well with the package metaphor.

              My concerns are:

              1. In the first model, there would be an explosion of packageItems in
              order to model the relationships, and there would inevitably be
              confusion between identifiers for the story at the root of the tree, and
              the packageItem representing the relationships. Either that, or there's
              just one packageitem to represent the whole tree? Our thinking has been
              that there would be one *event* drawing everything together, so we'd be
              looking to EventsML to glue things together at the event level, not
              packageItems.

              2. If we adopt item links on model 1 and packages in model 2, we will be
              in the situation where the same relationship (parent story with child
              picture) is represented differently in each service. If model 1 is
              right, would it not make sense to use a packageItem to collect the
              top-level stories only, and let item links draw in the children?


              If model 1 is wrong, then it follows that it should be wrong for an
              itemRef to refer to a NewsML-G2 document... i.e. I'm not really sure
              what itemRef is *for*, other than pointing to non-NewsML references on
              the web.

              I think it would be wrong if there were 2 ways to do the same thing;
              NewsML 1.x's downfall was that it was so wide open you could do anything
              and so there was effectively no interchange. I'm sure this is simply my
              misunderstanding :-)

              Paul

              This e-mail is from the PA Group. For more information, see
              www.thepagroup.com.
              This e-mail may contain confidential information.
              Only the addressee is permitted to read, copy, distribute or otherwise use
              this email or any attachments.
              If you have received it in error, please contact the sender immediately.
              Any opinion expressed in this e-mail is personal to the sender and may not
              reflect the opinion of the PA Group.
              Any e-mail reply to this address may be subject to interception or
              monitoring for operational reasons or for lawful business practices.


              ------------------------------------

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            • Paul Harman
              From: Michael Steidl (IPTC) [mailto:mdirector@iptc.org] ... Michael, I did not intend to imply NewsML-G2 is badly designed. I think it is designed very well;
              Message 6 of 18 , Sep 17, 2008
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                From: Michael Steidl (IPTC) [mailto:mdirector@...]
                > Before you start throwing things at NewsML-G2's bad design I have
                > to emphasize that the relationship of the items of a package is
                > certainly also a kind of relationship, so one could infer this
                > must be expressed by a link, but on the other hand creating a
                > package item for this specific purpose could not end in
                > excluding any feature from NewsML-G2 which allows to express
                > (other) relationships between items.


                Michael,

                I did not intend to imply NewsML-G2 is badly designed. I think it is
                designed very well; however for an outsider like me who hasn't been
                particularly involved in discussions it's a little difficult for me to
                work out which tags need to be applied in which circumstances - hence my
                original question.

                What this discussion has made clear to me is that packages are the
                "right" way to represent relationships between newsItems in both of my
                services, and I need to make that work. Item references and links do
                other things - I'm not quite sure what they are [other than linking to
                non-newsItems e.g. links on the web], but I now understand that I
                mustn't abuse them to do what packageItems were invented for.

                Paul

                This e-mail is from the PA Group. For more information, see www.thepagroup.com.
                This e-mail may contain confidential information.
                Only the addressee is permitted to read, copy, distribute or otherwise use this email or any attachments.
                If you have received it in error, please contact the sender immediately.
                Any opinion expressed in this e-mail is personal to the sender and may not reflect the opinion of the PA Group.
                Any e-mail reply to this address may be subject to interception or monitoring for operational reasons or for lawful business practices.
              • Paul Harman
                From: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Darko Gulija ... (e.g. ... better to ... user ... That is what I thought, but
                Message 7 of 18 , Sep 17, 2008
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                  From: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of Darko Gulija
                  > If relations to something are fixed and seen as property of a newsItem
                  (e.g.
                  > related pictures, videos, newsitems, like "seeAlso"), then it is
                  better to
                  > put these relations in the item using links. That way, whenever the
                  user
                  > opens the item, it is also presented with all the related content.


                  That is what I thought, but (if I understand him correctly) Michael
                  implies this is a misuse of links?


                  > However, you might need to update the item more frequently just
                  because
                  > there is more related stuff out there, although the content of the
                  item has
                  > not changed.


                  That is an important consideration. In our NewsML 1.x service, we let
                  the customers choose whether they receive a new copy of items where the
                  only change is the addition of a link to a new item (which links to the
                  original item). Some customers appreciate this dynamicism, but others
                  dislike the "message storm" this generates, but might be happier with a
                  single packageItem update.


                  > There is also a question: why you want all this relations to be
                  "fixed"
                  > (meaning written explicitly in some item), and not created dynamically
                  on
                  > customers side using metadata ?


                  Customer-side collation of collections based on metadata would be
                  feasible when we have an events system publishing event IDs. At the
                  moment we're trying to hide the hoops that our systems go through to
                  infer the relationships and don't want to burned our customers with them
                  :-)

                  Paul

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                • Michael Steidl (IPTC)
                  ... A dicussion on this was held by the developers under the heading web page collection or composite content: what if you compose particles of content to
                  Message 8 of 18 , Sep 17, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On 17 Sep 2008 at 13:53  Paul Harman wrote:

                    > From: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com] On
                    > Behalf Of Darko Gulija
                    > > If relations to something are fixed and seen as property of a
                    > newsItem
                    > (e.g.
                    > > related pictures, videos, newsitems, like "seeAlso"), then it is
                    > better to
                    > > put these relations in the item using links. That way, whenever the
                    > user
                    > > opens the item, it is also presented with all the related content.
                    >
                    >
                    > That is what I thought, but (if I understand him correctly) Michael
                    > implies this is a misuse of links?
                    >

                    A dicussion on this was held by the developers under the heading "web page collection" or "composite" content: what if you compose particles of content to make a full item - e.g a well desgined web page with the HTML code indluding text plus externally stored photos may rather be considered as an entity by itself and less as a package of items.

                    While a package item only structures the content, but is completely open to any rendition of the content, a receiver could e.g decide to display only the top ranking 5 out of PA's Top 10 - this should not be the case with a composite item.

                    But I have to admit a clear diving line between composite news entity and package was not drawn - so far. This may, even should, be in the upcoming Best Practices paper the IPTC will start working on in October.

                    Michael

                    ==================================================
                    Sent by:
                    Michael Steidl
                    Managing Director of the IPTC <mdirector@...>
                    International Press Telecommunications Council
                    "Information Technology for News"
                    Visit us on the web at  http://www.iptc.org
                     
                  • Laurent LE MEUR
                    ... [llm : ] 100% agreement ... [llm : ] item links are the good model for this: a textual story is linked to pictures, that are later graphically embedded
                    Message 9 of 18 , Sep 17, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      AFP views below:


                      > -----Message d'origine-----
                      > De : newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com] De la
                      > part de Paul Harman
                      > Envoyé : mercredi 17 septembre 2008 13:28
                      > À : newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com
                      > Objet : RE: [newsml-g2] Should I use Links or Packages?
                      >
                      > From: Michael Steidl (IPTC) [mailto:mdirector@...]
                      > > I can not fully follow the advantage you see in using links: If PA
                      > > sends out a "Top 10" news item with many links you also have to
                      > > update this item e.g. hourly. So why not send out a package item?
                      >
                      >
                      > PA has 2 different service models.
                      >
                      > For our traditional media customers, we run a traditional wire service.
                      > Articles, photos and videos are produced independently and transmitted
                      > as stand-alone items for our customers to consume and use as they see
                      > fit. Obviously, PA knows which pictures have been taken to illuminate
                      > which stories, and so forth. In this model, I see the power of using
                      > links to say "you might also be interested in this piece of content on
                      > the same theme". Links get inferred automatically by our transmission
                      > system, by associating items according to their metadata.

                      [llm : ] 100% agreement

                      >
                      > For internet customers, we've found that they want a more "web ready"
                      > service, where PA assembles explicit collections, all edited to fit a
                      > fairy generic "shape" for news. Stories are a standard length; each
                      > story has 3 pictures in standard shapes; stories might have one or more
                      > videos.

                      [llm : ] item links are the good model for this: a textual story is linked to pictures, that are later graphically "embedded" in the final Web page, but that doesn't make it a package.

                      > Collections of stories on specified themes - news, sport,
                      > showbiz - are put together and items in those collections are ranked
                      > against each other. These collections are edited to shape by our
                      > journalists, and the journalists them explicitly choose which 3
                      > pictures to use and choose the appropriate crop of each picture.
                      > It's a more tailored service. This fits well with the package metaphor.
                      >
                      [llm : ] 100% agreement: use the packageItem

                      > My concerns are:
                      >
                      > 1. In the first model, there would be an explosion of packageItems in
                      > order to model the relationships, and there would inevitably be
                      > confusion between identifiers for the story at the root of the tree,
                      > and
                      > the packageItem representing the relationships. Either that, or there's
                      > just one packageitem to represent the whole tree? Our thinking has been
                      > that there would be one *event* drawing everything together, so we'd be
                      > looking to EventsML to glue things together at the event level, not
                      > packageItems.
                      >
                      > 2. If we adopt item links on model 1 and packages in model 2, we will
                      > be
                      > in the situation where the same relationship (parent story with child
                      > picture) is represented differently in each service. If model 1 is
                      > right, would it not make sense to use a packageItem to collect the
                      > top-level stories only, and let item links draw in the children?
                      >
                      >
                      > If model 1 is wrong, then it follows that it should be wrong for an
                      > itemRef to refer to a NewsML-G2 document... i.e. I'm not really sure
                      > what itemRef is *for*, other than pointing to non-NewsML references on
                      > the web.
                      >
                      > I think it would be wrong if there were 2 ways to do the same thing;
                      > NewsML 1.x's downfall was that it was so wide open you could do
                      > anything
                      > and so there was effectively no interchange. I'm sure this is simply my
                      > misunderstanding :-)
                      >
                      > Paul
                      >

                      This e-mail, and any file transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error, please contact the sender and delete the email from your system. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this email.

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                    • Paul Harman
                      From: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Laurent LE MEUR ... Thanks Laurent. So you agree that my thinking around how to
                      Message 10 of 18 , Sep 17, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        From: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com] On
                        Behalf Of Laurent LE MEUR
                        > AFP views below:


                        Thanks Laurent. So you agree that my thinking around how to model PA's
                        content in G2 was initially correct... Do you have any comments on my
                        concerns - that there are 2 ways to do it?

                        I think where you're guiding me is that the parent-child relationships
                        between articles/pictures/videos about the same event would be
                        represented with links, but collections of stories on a similar theme
                        ("oscars") would be packageItems.

                        If we had a big bag of content of various types that needed linking
                        together in different ways for different collections (e.g. the use of
                        different pictures to the story when used in a "news" or "sport"
                        context), we couldn't use links in the items: we'd have to use different
                        packageItems (with groups as necessary) but could use the same content
                        items. Yes?

                        Paul

                        This e-mail is from the PA Group. For more information, see www.thepagroup.com.
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                        Only the addressee is permitted to read, copy, distribute or otherwise use this email or any attachments.
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                      • Michael Steidl (IPTC)
                        ... Laurent the problem with your thoughts is: where to draw the line between using links and a package. I wrote in a previous email, and this was what the
                        Message 11 of 18 , Sep 17, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          On 17 Sep 2008 at 18:52  Laurent LE MEUR wrote:

                          > AFP views below:
                          >
                          >
                          > > -----Message d'origine-----
                          > > De : newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com] De
                          > la
                          > > part de Paul Harman
                          > > Envoyé : mercredi 17 septembre 2008 13:28
                          > > À : newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Objet : RE: [newsml-g2] Should I use Links or Packages?

                          > > For internet customers, we've found that they want a more "web ready"
                          > > service, where PA assembles explicit collections, all edited to fit a
                          > > fairy generic "shape" for news. Stories are a standard length; each
                          > > story has 3 pictures in standard shapes; stories might have one or
                          > more
                          > > videos.
                          >
                          > [llm : ] item links are the good model for this: a textual story is
                          > linked to pictures, that are later graphically "embedded" in the final
                          > Web page, but that doesn't make it a package.
                          >

                          Laurent

                          the problem with your thoughts is: where to draw the line between using links and a package.

                          I wrote in a previous email, and this was what the developer group discussed at a meeting in May 2006, that links may be used only to link together what is a fixed entity, was called "composite content". So if the newsprovider builds an exact web page and wants to deliver this page to customers then this is the "item" but bad enough this visual entity can not be conveyed as a single piece of content. In this case links could help.

                          On the other hand if the new provider creates a set of content and only applies a  basic structure to it like "main story", "background story/text", "background story/photo" and it completely up to the receive how these pieces of content are arranged and finally rendered then it should be a package.

                          Now it is up to the IPTC to express this by clear and unambigous guidelines as else, as Paul pointed out, people could assert one can freely chose wether to use links or packages, and then the door is wide open to non-interoperability.

                          Michael


                          ==================================================
                          Sent by:
                          Michael Steidl
                          Managing Director of the IPTC <mdirector@...>
                          International Press Telecommunications Council
                          "Information Technology for News"
                          Visit us on the web at  http://www.iptc.org
                           
                        • Darko Gulija
                          Michael, I agree. But, there is another issue present in Paul’s use case: links to related items (seeAlso links). In fact, they create most of the problems
                          Message 12 of 18 , Sep 18, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment

                            Michael,

                             

                            I agree.

                             

                            But, there is another issue present in Paul’s use case: links to related items (seeAlso links).


                            In fact, they create most of the problems because related items might be published after the initial item (so, there is the question on how and whether to update them).

                             

                            And, as Paul suggested, packageItems do not solve the problem because for every newsItem then there could be parallel package (because it could be related to various events or themes or something like that).

                             

                            =================================================================
                            Darko.Gulija@...

                            IT Manager / Voditelj informatike 

                            tel:  +385 1 48 08 800

                            fax:  +385 1 48 08 820
                            Croatian News Agency (HINA)    

                             

                            From: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Steidl (IPTC)
                            Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 10:52 PM
                            To: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [newsml-g2] Should I use Links or Packages?

                             

                            On 17 Sep 2008 at 18:52  Laurent LE MEUR wrote:

                             

                            > AFP views below:

                            >

                            >

                            > > -----Message d'origine-----

                            > > De : newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com] De

                            > la

                            > > part de Paul Harman

                            > > Envoyé : mercredi 17 septembre 2008 13:28

                            > > À : newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com

                            > > Objet : RE: [newsml-g2] Should I use Links or Packages?

                             

                            > > For internet customers, we've found that they want a more "web ready"

                            > > service, where PA assembles explicit collections, all edited to fit a

                            > > fairy generic "shape" for news. Stories are a standard length; each

                            > > story has 3 pictures in standard shapes; stories might have one or

                            > more

                            > > videos.

                            >

                            > [llm : ] item links are the good model for this: a textual story is

                            > linked to pictures, that are later graphically "embedded" in the final

                            > Web page, but that doesn't make it a package.

                            >

                             

                            Laurent

                             

                            the problem with your thoughts is: where to draw the line between using links and a package.

                             

                            I wrote in a previous email, and this was what the developer group discussed at a meeting in May 2006, that links may be used only to link together what is a fixed entity, was called "composite content". So if the newsprovider builds an exact web page and wants to deliver this page to customers then this is the "item" but bad enough this visual entity can not be conveyed as a single piece of content. In this case links could help.

                             

                            On the other hand if the new provider creates a set of content and only applies a  basic structure to it like "main story", "background story/text", "background story/photo" and it completely up to the receive how these pieces of content are arranged and finally rendered then it should be a package.

                             

                            Now it is up to the IPTC to express this by clear and unambigous guidelines as else, as Paul pointed out, people could assert one can freely chose wether to use links or packages, and then the door is wide open to non-interoperability.

                             

                            Michael

                             

                             

                            ==================================================

                            Sent by:

                            Michael Steidl

                            Managing Director of the IPTC <mdirector@...>

                            International Press Telecommunications Council

                            "Information Technology for News"

                            Visit us on the web at  http://www.iptc.org

                             

                          • Dave Compton
                            I broadly agree with LLM s comments below. The TR position is: SNI: Simple News Item - newsItem - Std SNI: A single story , having a single media type. May
                            Message 13 of 18 , Sep 18, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I broadly agree with LLM's comments below. The TR position is:
                               
                              SNI: Simple News Item - newsItem
                              - Std SNI: A single 'story', having a single media type. May have seeAlso links, but the item can be rendered without the ref'd seeAlso items.
                              - Composite SNI: Text item, with links to associated (already published) items which are intented to be rendered atomically with the text item.
                               
                              NEP: News Event Package - packageItem
                              - Std NEP: A collection of refs to items of any media type; all relate to a single 'story'
                              - Picture Gallery: A collection of refs to picture items. Optionally ordered.
                               
                              SNEP: Super News Event Package - packageItem
                              - Top 10: An ordered list of refs to existing items and/or packages.
                              - Top News: Top 10 + additional grouping of sidebars, additional info etc.
                               
                              The packaging paradigm ensures that any referenced 'media' is published before the referencing 'media'. This is applied up the chain, i.e.
                              Publish referenced content, ... then referencing item
                              Publish referenced item / package, ... then referencing item / package
                               
                              Rgds
                              DC


                              From: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Laurent LE MEUR
                              Sent: 17 September 2008 17:53
                              To: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: RE: [newsml-g2] Should I use Links or Packages?

                              AFP views below:

                              > -----Message d'origine--- --
                              > De :
                              href="mailto:newsml-g2%40yahoogroups.com">newsml-g2@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:newsml-g2@yahoogrou ps.com] De la
                              > part de Paul Harman
                              > Envoyé : mercredi 17 septembre 2008
                              13:28
                              > À :
                              href="mailto:newsml-g2%40yahoogroups.com">newsml-g2@yahoogrou ps.com
                              >
                              Objet : RE: [newsml-g2] Should I use Links or Packages?
                              >
                              > From:
                              Michael Steidl (IPTC) [mailto:mdirector@iptc. org]
                              > > I
                              can not fully follow the advantage you see in using links: If PA
                              > >
                              sends out a "Top 10" news item with many links you also have to
                              > >
                              update this item e.g. hourly. So why not send out a package item?
                              >
                              >
                              > PA has 2 different service models.
                              >
                              >
                              For our traditional media customers, we run a traditional wire service.
                              >
                              Articles, photos and videos are produced independently and transmitted
                              >
                              as stand-alone items for our customers to consume and use as they see
                              >
                              fit. Obviously, PA knows which pictures have been taken to illuminate
                              >
                              which stories, and so forth. In this model, I see the power of using
                              >
                              links to say "you might also be interested in this piece of content on
                              >
                              the same theme". Links get inferred automatically by our transmission
                              >
                              system, by associating items according to their metadata.

                              [llm : ] 100% agreement

                              >
                              > For internet customers, we've found that they want
                              a more "web ready"
                              > service, where PA assembles explicit collections, all
                              edited to fit a
                              > fairy generic "shape" for news. Stories are a standard
                              length; each
                              > story has 3 pictures in standard shapes; stories might have
                              one or more
                              > videos.

                              [llm : ] item links are the good model for this: a textual story is linked to pictures, that are later graphically "embedded" in the final Web page, but that doesn't make it a package.

                              > Collections of stories on specified themes - news,
                              sport,
                              > showbiz - are put together and items in those collections are
                              ranked
                              > against each other. These collections are edited to shape by
                              our
                              > journalists, and the journalists them explicitly choose which
                              3
                              > pictures to use and choose the appropriate crop of each
                              picture.
                              > It's a more tailored service. This fits well with the package
                              metaphor.
                              >
                              [llm : ] 100% agreement: use the packageItem

                              > My
                              concerns are:
                              >
                              > 1. In the first model, there would be an explosion
                              of packageItems in
                              > order to model the relationships, and there would
                              inevitably be
                              > confusion between identifiers for the story at the root of
                              the tree,
                              > and
                              > the packageItem representing the relationships.
                              Either that, or there's
                              > just one packageitem to represent the whole
                              tree? Our thinking has been
                              > that there would be one *event* drawing
                              everything together, so we'd be
                              > looking to EventsML to glue things
                              together at the event level, not
                              > packageItems.
                              >
                              > 2. If we
                              adopt item links on model 1 and packages in model 2, we will
                              > be
                              >
                              in the situation where the same relationship (parent story with child
                              >
                              picture) is represented differently in each service. If model 1 is
                              >
                              right, would it not make sense to use a packageItem to collect the
                              >
                              top-level stories only, and let item links draw in the children?
                              >
                              >
                              > If model 1 is wrong, then it follows that it
                              should be wrong for an
                              > itemRef to refer to a NewsML-G2 document... i.e.
                              I'm not really sure
                              > what itemRef is *for*, other than pointing to
                              non-NewsML references on
                              > the web.
                              >
                              > I think it would be
                              wrong if there were 2 ways to do the same thing;
                              > NewsML 1.x's downfall
                              was that it was so wide open you could do
                              > anything
                              > and so there
                              was effectively no interchange. I'm sure this is simply my
                              >
                              misunderstanding :-)
                              >
                              > Paul
                              >

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                            • Michael Steidl (IPTC)
                              Darko, see below . ... I see two issues with this: a) is the guid of the associated item already available - if this this would prevent creating a link b) is
                              Message 14 of 18 , Sep 18, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Darko, see below .

                                On 18 Sep 2008 at 11:04  Darko Gulija wrote:

                                >
                                > Michael,
                                >
                                > I agree.
                                >
                                > But, there is another issue present in Paul’s use case: links to
                                > related items (seeAlso links).
                                >
                                > In fact, they create most of the problems because related items might be
                                > published after the
                                > initial item (so, there is the question on how and whether to update
                                > them).

                                I see two issues with this:

                                a) is the guid of the associated item already available - if this this would prevent creating a link

                                b) is the associated item accessible to the receiver: one reason could be that it has not been published (yet) - another reason: the receiver is not on the distribution list. I guess many editors are not fully aware that not all items go to all customers.

                                >
                                > And, as Paul suggested, packageItems do not solve the problem because for
                                > every newsItem
                                > then there could be parallel package (because it could be related to
                                > various events or themes or
                                > something like that).

                                Hm, it depends on what you intent by "packaging" news:

                                I feel there are two fundamentally different approaches to "packaging":

                                a) intentional packaging: there is either a person picking items and arranging them to form a package or a processing rule (like: sort items by date/time descending and urgency ascending, pick the first 10 to make a "Top 10" package). As already said, package items should be used with any planned wrapping of content.

                                b) associative packaging: a receiver has got a bunch of items, picks one and tries to find out if some other are associated with this item. And as said above, it is not even granted that the associated item is in the receiver's pool. This is a more lightweight approach.

                                Michael

                                >
                                > =================================================================
                                > Darko.Gulija@...
                                > IT Manager / Voditelj informatike
                                > tel: +385 1 48 08 800
                                > fax: +385 1 48 08 820
                                > Croatian News Agency (HINA)
                                >
                                >
                                > From: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com] On
                                > Behalf Of
                                > Michael Steidl (IPTC)
                                > Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 10:52 PM
                                > To: newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: RE: [newsml-g2] Should I use Links or Packages?
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > On 17 Sep 2008 at 18:52 Laurent LE MEUR wrote:
                                >
                                > > AFP views below:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > > -----Message d'origine-----
                                > > > De : newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com] De
                                > > la
                                > > > part de Paul Harman
                                > > > Envoyé : mercredi 17 septembre 2008 13:28
                                > > > À : newsml-g2@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > Objet : RE: [newsml-g2] Should I use Links or Packages?
                                >
                                > > > For internet customers, we've found that they want a more "web ready"
                                > > > service, where PA assembles explicit collections, all edited to fit a
                                > > > fairy generic "shape" for news. Stories are a standard length; each
                                > > > story has 3 pictures in standard shapes; stories might have one or
                                > > more
                                > > > videos.
                                > >
                                > > [llm : ] item links are the good model for this: a textual story is
                                > > linked to pictures, that are later graphically "embedded" in the final
                                > > Web page, but that doesn't make it a package.
                                > >
                                >
                                > Laurent
                                >
                                > the problem with your thoughts is: where to draw the line between using
                                > links and a package.
                                >
                                > I wrote in a previous email, and this was what the developer group
                                > discussed at a meeting in May
                                > 2006, that links may be used only to link together what is a fixed
                                > entity, was called "composite
                                > content". So if the newsprovider builds an exact web page and wants to
                                > deliver this page to
                                > customers then this is the "item" but bad enough this visual entity can
                                > not be conveyed as a single
                                > piece of content. In this case links could help.
                                >
                                > On the other hand if the new provider creates a set of content and only
                                > applies a basic structure
                                > to it like "main story", "background story/text", "background
                                > story/photo" and it completely up to the
                                > receive how these pieces of content are arranged and finally rendered
                                > then it should be a
                                > package.
                                >
                                > Now it is up to the IPTC to express this by clear and unambigous
                                > guidelines as else, as Paul
                                > pointed out, people could assert one can freely chose wether to use links
                                > or packages, and then
                                > the door is wide open to non-interoperability.
                                >
                                > Michael
                                >
                                >
                                > ==================================================
                                > Sent by:
                                > Michael Steidl
                                > Managing Director of the IPTC <mdirector@...>
                                > International Press Telecommunications Council
                                > "Information Technology for News"
                                > Visit us on the web at http://www.iptc.org
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                ==================================================
                                Sent by:
                                Michael Steidl
                                Managing Director of the IPTC <mdirector@...>
                                International Press Telecommunications Council
                                "Information Technology for News"
                                Visit us on the web at  http://www.iptc.org
                                 
                              • Laurent LE MEUR
                                ... [llm : ] I don t see it as two ways to do the same thing. NewsML-1 has a very abstract way to combine components, and this has been an issue for
                                Message 15 of 18 , Sep 18, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  > Thanks Laurent. So you agree that my thinking around how to model PA's
                                  > content in G2 was initially correct... Do you have any comments on my
                                  > concerns - that there are 2 ways to do it?

                                  [llm : ] I don't see it as two ways to do the same thing. NewsML-1 has a very abstract way to combine components, and this has been an issue for implementers. NewsML-G2 takes a more pragmatic approach: packages of Items have a specific but clear use I think, they help representing groups of Items (no specific source Item) as a standalone managed object. Links offer navigational features from one Item to another Item (one source, one target, they are directional links), and represent also "dependency" features (when an Item needs the content of another Item to be fully processed, also one source, one target).

                                  >
                                  > I think where you're guiding me is that the parent-child relationships
                                  > between articles/pictures/videos about the same event would be
                                  > represented with links, but collections of stories on a similar theme
                                  > ("oscars") would be packageItems.

                                  [llm : ] "see also" navigation relationships are indeed better represented as links (there is a source Item). "collections" (e.g. event related) make good packages.

                                  >
                                  > If we had a big bag of content of various types that needed linking
                                  > together in different ways for different collections (e.g. the use of
                                  > different pictures to the story when used in a "news" or "sport"
                                  > context), we couldn't use links in the items: we'd have to use
                                  > different
                                  > packageItems (with groups as necessary) but could use the same content
                                  > items. Yes?

                                  [llm : ] one picture = one newsItem, one story = one newsItem. If a picture is part of different "collections" ("top news", "sport"), yes it will be grouped in different packages. Now, if your use case is that a story is "linked to" different pictures in different contexts, I must say that this is not a use case we discussed.

                                  Best rgds
                                  Laurent

                                  >
                                  > Paul
                                  >

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