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electronics for dummies...and the great pipe search

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  • gatesbox
    You all have got me thinking about some great ideas. But they all sound a bit over my head. There are quite a few hot water heater elements at my local
    Message 1 of 14 , Oct 28, 2003
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      You all have got me thinking about some great ideas. But they all
      sound a bit over my head.

      There are quite a few hot water heater elements at my local hardware
      store in 120v and 240v. Is it possible to just wire one of the
      small 120v elements, bolt it to the boiler, and then connect the
      heating element straight into a cord and plug? I imagine if I had
      two or three pluged into a power bar I could get the baby up to a
      good temp and then unplug. Is anyone running a simple system like
      this? Is it possible, and that easy? How many elements would I
      need to heat up a good six gal. run? Any risk of shock therapy, or
      bad news with multiple elements? There does not seem to be a ground
      connector on the elements...

      Another question if anyone has some advice. I have been plotting
      the "world class" valved reflux still, which has great online
      instructions. I bought some pretty spendy end caps and reducers
      from an online retailer, but now can't find three inch pipe. Does
      anyone have a small section they would sell? Also I did see some
      modified plans with a smaller two inch condensor section on the
      valved reflux, I would assume this eliminates the need for a
      reducing fixture, has anyone used this modified plan? Should I
      scrap the three inch pipe search?

      Thanks,

      Al
    • Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)
      ... Make it to fit a 2 inch diameter if you can. I understand it was only 3 inch to make the condenser coil a bit easier to form. But many many of us have
      Message 2 of 14 , Oct 28, 2003
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        > Another question if anyone has some advice. I have been plotting
        > the "world class" valved reflux still, which has great online
        > instructions. I bought some pretty spendy end caps and reducers
        > from an online retailer, but now can't find three inch pipe. Does
        > anyone have a small section they would sell? Also I did see some
        > modified plans with a smaller two inch condensor section on the
        > valved reflux, I would assume this eliminates the need for a
        > reducing fixture, has anyone used this modified plan? Should I
        > scrap the three inch pipe search?

        Make it to fit a 2 inch diameter if you can. I understand it was only 3 inch to make the condenser coil a bit easier to form. But many many of us have made the coil to fit inside a 2 inch section. 2 also reduces the risk of that wide gap up the center of the coil - which has generally needed blocking/obscuring with something (a scrubber) to encourage the vapour to go close past the coil and not simply escape uncondensed up the center.

        Tony
      • watertrade2003
        Hi Just another thing about the valved reflux still your planning on making - it might be worth making the column abit longer and the reflux valve that
        Message 3 of 14 , Oct 28, 2003
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          Hi
          Just another thing about the valved reflux still your planning on
          making - it might be worth making the column abit longer and the
          reflux valve that controls the reflux entering the column isn't
          needed - just extend the tube a fraction higher than the product
          valve. You will then be able to control the reflux by taking a
          measured amound from the product valve and leaving the rest of the
          condensed liquid to be returned to the column.

          If you lived in australia I could send you some 3" tube but as Tony
          said its probably worth just winding a 2" coil.

          Good luck! and I do look forward to hearing how it all goes!

          Cheers Jim

          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gatesbox" <gatesbox@y...>
          wrote:
          > You all have got me thinking about some great ideas. But they all
          > sound a bit over my head.
          >
          > There are quite a few hot water heater elements at my local
          hardware
          > store in 120v and 240v. Is it possible to just wire one of the
          > small 120v elements, bolt it to the boiler, and then connect the
          > heating element straight into a cord and plug? I imagine if I had
          > two or three pluged into a power bar I could get the baby up to a
          > good temp and then unplug. Is anyone running a simple system like
          > this? Is it possible, and that easy? How many elements would I
          > need to heat up a good six gal. run? Any risk of shock therapy,
          or
          > bad news with multiple elements? There does not seem to be a
          ground
          > connector on the elements...
          >
          > Another question if anyone has some advice. I have been plotting
          > the "world class" valved reflux still, which has great online
          > instructions. I bought some pretty spendy end caps and reducers
          > from an online retailer, but now can't find three inch pipe. Does
          > anyone have a small section they would sell? Also I did see some
          > modified plans with a smaller two inch condensor section on the
          > valved reflux, I would assume this eliminates the need for a
          > reducing fixture, has anyone used this modified plan? Should I
          > scrap the three inch pipe search?
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Al
        • peter_vcb
          you probably cant just bolt the element to the tank. if it is an immersed water element is is not meant to get much above 120C. as it is not immerrsed it will
          Message 4 of 14 , Oct 29, 2003
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            you probably cant just bolt the element to the tank. if it is an
            immersed water element is is not meant to get much above 120C. as it
            is not immerrsed it will get very hot and will explode. you are
            looking for a more expensive hot plate element.
          • tfurey7
            ... hardware ... or ... ground ... I have some three inch copper, about four feet. Do you live in the states?
            Message 5 of 14 , Oct 29, 2003
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              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gatesbox" <gatesbox@y...>
              wrote:
              > You all have got me thinking about some great ideas. But they all
              > sound a bit over my head.
              >
              > There are quite a few hot water heater elements at my local
              hardware
              > store in 120v and 240v. Is it possible to just wire one of the
              > small 120v elements, bolt it to the boiler, and then connect the
              > heating element straight into a cord and plug? I imagine if I had
              > two or three pluged into a power bar I could get the baby up to a
              > good temp and then unplug. Is anyone running a simple system like
              > this? Is it possible, and that easy? How many elements would I
              > need to heat up a good six gal. run? Any risk of shock therapy,
              or
              > bad news with multiple elements? There does not seem to be a
              ground
              > connector on the elements...
              >
              > Another question if anyone has some advice. I have been plotting
              > the "world class" valved reflux still, which has great online
              > instructions. I bought some pretty spendy end caps and reducers
              > from an online retailer, but now can't find three inch pipe. Does
              > anyone have a small section they would sell? Also I did see some
              > modified plans with a smaller two inch condensor section on the
              > valved reflux, I would assume this eliminates the need for a
              > reducing fixture, has anyone used this modified plan? Should I
              > scrap the three inch pipe search?
              >
              > Thanks,
              >
              > Al

              I have some three inch copper, about four feet. Do you live in the
              states?
            • gatesbox
              ... it ... I was thinking about drilling a hole and placing the element on the inside of the boiler so they would be immersed in the wash. The elements come
              Message 6 of 14 , Oct 29, 2003
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                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "peter_vcb"
                <viciousblackout@y...> wrote:
                > you probably cant just bolt the element to the tank. if it is an
                > immersed water element is is not meant to get much above 120C. as
                it
                > is not immerrsed it will get very hot and will explode. you are
                > looking for a more expensive hot plate element.

                I was thinking about drilling a hole and placing the element on the
                inside of the boiler so they would be immersed in the wash. The
                elements come with a rubber seal and should make a nice seal if they
                were inserted horizontally into the side of the boiler section. Can
                it then be wired this way???
              • Harry
                ... the ... they ... Can ... Short answer....Yes More Info... If the boiler is metal then the element/s *MUST BE EARTHED* otherwise it is electrically unsafe.
                Message 7 of 14 , Oct 29, 2003
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                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gatesbox" <gatesbox@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > I was thinking about drilling a hole and placing the element on
                  the
                  > inside of the boiler so they would be immersed in the wash. The
                  > elements come with a rubber seal and should make a nice seal if
                  they
                  > were inserted horizontally into the side of the boiler section.
                  Can
                  > it then be wired this way???


                  Short answer....Yes

                  More Info...
                  If the boiler is metal then the element/s *MUST BE EARTHED*
                  otherwise it is electrically unsafe. If the boiler is non-metal
                  then a two-wire connection is normal.

                  You might consider this setup...
                  http://hbd.org/pcalinsk/HeatStk3.htm

                  Bear in mind that if you kill yourself with amateur electric
                  installations, then your life insurance is VOID and your family
                  loses TWICE!

                  HTH

                  Slainte!
                  regards Harry
                • nanosleep
                  I started out with the same design. I later discovered this forum. I m recommend against building that head design. Instead I d recommend building bokobob s
                  Message 8 of 14 , Oct 29, 2003
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                    I started out with the same design. I later discovered this forum.
                    I'm recommend against building that head design. Instead I'd
                    recommend building bokobob's "inline single reducer" head. The
                    performance is almost identical, but the inline head requires less
                    height, less parts, is better balanced, and is easier to build.

                    I used 2 inch pipe for the condenser for the offset head. I had the
                    same problem. No plumbing store carries 3 inch copper. It's just too
                    big for normal household usage. I even had to hunt for the 2 inch
                    pipe, and buy a whole 20 foot length.

                    I use hot water heater elements just like you are describing. They
                    work well and are cheap. I would never run them without using a
                    3-wire setup. The 'hot' wire goes to the element. The 'neutral' wire
                    goes to the element. The 'ground' wire goes to the boiler. If the
                    element ever shorts this setup will cause the breaker to trip.
                    Without the ground, a shorted element will put 110 volts on your
                    boiler and column (a very bad thing). It's not quite as simple as
                    plugging in two elements into your power strip. I use 110volt 1500
                    watt elements. Each of these pulls about 13amps. Your standard wall
                    socket WILL NOT provide 26amps. I have to be sure to plug my elements
                    into wall sockets that are on different breakers (20 amp breakers).
                    Invest in some very heavy duty extension cords. If you use 240V the
                    current draw is less, but most houses in the states don't have 240V
                    wall sockets. Also most 240V elements will be in the 4000 watt range.
                    For a 2 inch diameter column, this is too much power. The 2 inch
                    column will need the power to be below 2000 watts.

                    The elements I have are the screw-in type. I found a copper fitting
                    which had female threads on one end and a sweat fitting on the other.
                    The threaded end perfectly matched the heating element. I then cut
                    off the sweat end, and brazed the fitting onto my stainless boiler
                    (you need an oxy-fuel torch for this. Propane isn't good enough).
                    The rubber washer keeps it from leaking. It only a few minutes to
                    replace a burned out element (very nice!).

                    I'll post some pictures of the boiler fitting and the head if you need
                    them.

                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gatesbox" <gatesbox@y...> wrote:
                    > You all have got me thinking about some great ideas. But they all
                    > sound a bit over my head.
                    >
                    > There are quite a few hot water heater elements at my local hardware
                    > store in 120v and 240v. Is it possible to just wire one of the
                    > small 120v elements, bolt it to the boiler, and then connect the
                    > heating element straight into a cord and plug? I imagine if I had
                    > two or three pluged into a power bar I could get the baby up to a
                    > good temp and then unplug. Is anyone running a simple system like
                    > this? Is it possible, and that easy? How many elements would I
                    > need to heat up a good six gal. run? Any risk of shock therapy, or
                    > bad news with multiple elements? There does not seem to be a ground
                    > connector on the elements...
                    >
                    > Another question if anyone has some advice. I have been plotting
                    > the "world class" valved reflux still, which has great online
                    > instructions. I bought some pretty spendy end caps and reducers
                    > from an online retailer, but now can't find three inch pipe. Does
                    > anyone have a small section they would sell? Also I did see some
                    > modified plans with a smaller two inch condensor section on the
                    > valved reflux, I would assume this eliminates the need for a
                    > reducing fixture, has anyone used this modified plan? Should I
                    > scrap the three inch pipe search?
                    >
                    > Thanks,
                    >
                    > Al
                  • nanosleep
                    Here s the boiler fitting and the wiring for the hot water heater element
                    Message 9 of 14 , Oct 29, 2003
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                      Here's the boiler fitting and the wiring for the hot water heater element

                      http://f3.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/sH6gP-z_CMoFld7DshbwYP4gGrHuDamj6VmmHmMNxDGdzwJkYy2llDy26IHpoTQOuXfC2r5-Xx-qIp8dvrT2pTrZmEli/nanosleep/current%20still/plug.jpg

                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "nanosleep" <nanosleep@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I'll post some pictures of the boiler fitting and the head if you need
                      > them.
                      >
                    • nanosleep
                      Can t yahoo makes their links easier?!!!! Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/files/nanosleep Then click current still then click plug.jpg ...
                      Message 10 of 14 , Oct 30, 2003
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                        Can't yahoo makes their links easier?!!!!

                        Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/files/nanosleep
                        Then click "current still"
                        then click "plug.jpg"


                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "nanosleep" <nanosleep@y...> wrote:
                        > Here's the boiler fitting and the wiring for the hot water heater
                        element
                        >
                        >
                        http://f3.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/sH6gP-z_CMoFld7DshbwYP4gGrHuDamj6VmmHmMNxDGdzwJkYy2llDy26IHpoTQOuXfC2r5-Xx-qIp8dvrT2pTrZmEli/nanosleep/current%20still/plug.jpg
                        >
                      • Matthew Garner
                        Ok like the previous dude said do not hook 2 elements up to the one circut here is a quick chart of what each element draws in 250v (asuuise power) each power
                        Message 11 of 14 , Oct 30, 2003
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                          Ok like the previous dude said do not hook 2 elements up to the one
                          circut here is a quick chart of what each element draws in 250v
                          (asuuise power) each power opint in aus is 10amp some are 15am but
                          these are usall for air con so if u want to unplug ya air con us
                          etaht powerpoint the earth pin (the bottom one) will be longer u
                          will notice (we need less amps as we have a higher voltage than the
                          us)
                          500w = 2 amp
                          1000w = 4amps
                          1500w = 6amps
                          2000w = 8amps
                          1500w = 10amps

                          The other dude said elemets will be liek 4000w this is wrong 2500w
                          is the hiherst u will get here on standard power point i recommend
                          plugging it in to the laundry outlets as these are for washing
                          machines and dryers so this circut will prolly just be for them and
                          maybe soem thing else or using the kitchen one as kettles pull alot
                          of power the new fast kettles are 2400w which would be great for a
                          keg as this will be surplus power kettles are designed to boil quick
                          as possible no one wamnts to wait hours as as distillers wait for
                          out kegs to heat up.
                          and by circut iu mean each house will have a few of them so if soem
                          thing happens to one u do not loose all power bassily all power
                          points are not all connect to each other most house will have 2 or 3
                          at least. BTW all this ifo is correct avbove i have done all my
                          first yeasr theory thru tafe but i am no electrican but thsi is
                          basic stuff
                        • Campbell Ritchie
                          ... one ... the ... and ... alot ... quick ... soem ... 3 ... HARRY!!!!!
                          Message 12 of 14 , Oct 31, 2003
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                            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Garner"
                            <mgarner@c...> wrote:
                            > Ok like the previous dude said do not hook 2 elements up to the
                            one
                            > circut here is a quick chart of what each element draws in 250v
                            > (asuuise power) each power opint in aus is 10amp some are 15am but
                            > these are usall for air con so if u want to unplug ya air con us
                            > etaht powerpoint the earth pin (the bottom one) will be longer u
                            > will notice (we need less amps as we have a higher voltage than
                            the
                            > us)
                            > 500w = 2 amp
                            > 1000w = 4amps
                            > 1500w = 6amps
                            > 2000w = 8amps
                            > 1500w = 10amps
                            >
                            > The other dude said elemets will be liek 4000w this is wrong 2500w
                            > is the hiherst u will get here on standard power point i recommend
                            > plugging it in to the laundry outlets as these are for washing
                            > machines and dryers so this circut will prolly just be for them
                            and
                            > maybe soem thing else or using the kitchen one as kettles pull
                            alot
                            > of power the new fast kettles are 2400w which would be great for a
                            > keg as this will be surplus power kettles are designed to boil
                            quick
                            > as possible no one wamnts to wait hours as as distillers wait for
                            > out kegs to heat up.
                            > and by circut iu mean each house will have a few of them so if
                            soem
                            > thing happens to one u do not loose all power bassily all power
                            > points are not all connect to each other most house will have 2 or
                            3
                            > at least. BTW all this ifo is correct avbove i have done all my
                            > first yeasr theory thru tafe but i am no electrican but thsi is
                            > basic stuff


                            HARRY!!!!!
                          • Mike Nixon
                            Matthew Garner wrote: Subject: [new_distillers] Re: electronics for dummies...and the great pipe search (240v info) Ok like the previous dude said do not hook
                            Message 13 of 14 , Oct 31, 2003
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                              Matthew Garner wrote:
                              Subject: [new_distillers] Re: electronics for dummies...and the great pipe
                              search (240v info)

                              Ok like the previous dude said do not hook 2 elements up to the one
                              circut here is a quick chart of what each element draws in 250v
                              (asuuise power) each power opint in aus is 10amp some are 15am but
                              these are usall for air con so if u want to unplug ya air con us
                              etaht powerpoint the earth pin (the bottom one) will be longer u
                              will notice (we need less amps as we have a higher voltage than the
                              us)
                              500w = 2 amp
                              1000w = 4amps
                              1500w = 6amps
                              2000w = 8amps
                              1500w = 10amps
                              ==================
                              Slight correction on a wee typo ... that should be 2500W instead of 1500w on
                              the last line (at 250V)
                              All amperage figures will also be slightly higher if using 240V instead of
                              250V.
                              Also worth noting is that the resistance of an element rated at any given
                              wattage at 120V will be only a quarter of the resistance of an element rated
                              at that same wattage with 240V. You can therefore safely run a 240V rated
                              element on 120V (to get a quarter of that wattage), but not the other way
                              round. An element rated as 2500W at 120V will deliver 10000W at 240V with a
                              current of 42 amp ... and that will certainly brighten your life!
                              Mike N
                            • Harry
                              ... ... ROFLMAO!!!! Sorry, not laughing at Matthew. Just p!ssing myself at this cryptic response! :-))) Slainte! regards Harry
                              Message 14 of 14 , Oct 31, 2003
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                                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Campbell Ritchie"
                                <ritchiec@t...> wrote:
                                > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Garner"
                                > <mgarner@c...> wrote:
                                <big snip>
                                >
                                >
                                > HARRY!!!!!

                                ROFLMAO!!!!
                                Sorry, not laughing at Matthew. Just p!ssing myself at this cryptic
                                response! :-)))

                                Slainte!
                                regards Harry
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