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RE: [new_distillers] Re: Reflux column size

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  • Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)
    ... I hope thats 2x 1.6 kW, not 21.6 kW ? If a total of 3.2kW, then yes, 3 inch diameter should be suitable. Tony
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 3, 2003
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      > It has 21.6KW heating elements.

      I hope thats 2x 1.6 kW, not 21.6 kW ?
      If a total of 3.2kW, then yes, 3 inch diameter should be suitable.

      Tony
    • P E
      Nope... According to the specs on this steam cooker it is 21.6kw total and I think that is spread out between 6 heating elements... It is currently 208v 3
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 3, 2003
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        Nope... According to the specs on this steam cooker
        it is 21.6kw total and I think that is spread out
        between 6 heating elements... It is currently 208v 3
        phase but I am going to convert it to single phase so
        I can use it.. When it is done, I will post pics..
        It should be the ultimate still!!! Can't wait to get
        it up and working....
        PJ


        --- "Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)"
        <Tony.Ackland@...> wrote:
        > > It has 21.6KW heating elements.
        >
        > I hope thats 2x 1.6 kW, not 21.6 kW ?
        > If a total of 3.2kW, then yes, 3 inch diameter
        > should be suitable.
        >
        > Tony
        >


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      • peter_vcb <viciousblackout@yahoo.com>
        you could wire the 6 elements up nicely and have great power contol. i had a 3 inch column and it was a perfect size for scrubbers, any larger and you will
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 4, 2003
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          you could wire the 6 elements up nicely and have great power contol.
          i had a 3 inch column and it was a perfect size for scrubbers, any
          larger and you will have trouble unless you get some copper mesh from
          the 2 Mikes.


          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "PJEVolley <pjevolley@y...>"
          <pjevolley@y...> wrote:
          > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)"
          > <Tony.Ackland@c...> wrote:
          > > > Here's the story... We currently have a 10 gal reflux still
          > with
          > > > the reflux column size of 2 inch by 36 inch. We are upgrading
          > to a
          > > > 40 gallon reflux still and we didn't know what size column to
          > > > build. Any ideas or rules of thumb to follow?? We were
          > thinking of
          > > > building a 3 inch column..
          > >
          > > If you are using the same heat source, then the old column will
          > still work fine. You only need to make the column wider if you are
          > going to be using more heat.
          > >
          > > Tony
          >
          > We are going from a turkey frier propane source to a Groen 208v 40
          > gal steam cooker. It has 21.6KW heating elements. and heats up to
          > 270deg with a thermostatic control.
        • nanosleep
          I use 1500 watts on a 2 inch diameter column. This roughly equates to a power density of 477 watts per square inch. If I run 3000 watts the column will flood
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 4, 2003
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            I use 1500 watts on a 2 inch diameter column. This
            roughly equates to a power density of 477 watts per
            square inch. If I run 3000 watts the column will flood
            (954 watts per square inch). I am assuming a larger
            column can handle a similar power density. In order
            to handle 21.6Kw of power you'll need about 45 sq.in.
            of cross sectional area. This equates to about an
            8 inch diameter column (50.2 sq.in.)!!!!!!!!!
            You'll need a warehouse of fermenters to keep that
            beast fed. Also I'm not sure my 'back of the
            envelope' calculations are appropriate for that
            large of a column. You may require an even larger
            column to handle 21.6Kw. I have no experience
            on that scale of power.

            I'd recommend using a 3 inch column that is as tall
            as will fit within your building. You'll be happier
            with a very tall still. It's much easier to get
            clean vodkas. Also, it's easier to detune a tall
            still than it is to improve a short one. You can
            run with little or no reflux when you want to keep
            the flavors.
            You are going to need a method to reduce the power
            down to a managable level (3kw). Connecting all or
            part of the elements in series will reduce power.
            Switching the elements back into a parallel hook
            up will increase the power output. Having
            the extra power capacity would be great for 'instant'
            startup time. However, you'll have to be careful
            about burning your wash with that much power.

            -A

            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, P E <pjevolley@y...> wrote:
            > Nope... According to the specs on this steam cooker
            > it is 21.6kw total and I think that is spread out
            > between 6 heating elements... It is currently 208v 3
            > phase but I am going to convert it to single phase so
            > I can use it.. When it is done, I will post pics..
            > It should be the ultimate still!!! Can't wait to get
            > it up and working....
            > PJ
            >
          • pjevolley
            Thanks for all the info.. This steam cooker has 6 heating elements totalling 21.6kw. If my math is correct, that is 6, 3600w elements. I have rewired this
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 5, 2003
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              Thanks for all the info.. This steam cooker has 6 heating elements
              totalling 21.6kw. If my math is correct, that is 6, 3600w
              elements. I have rewired this unit to run single phase (from 3
              phase) and I wired it to only use 4 of the 6 elements which should
              bring it down to 14.4kw. This cooker is a 40 gal steam cooker which
              is kind of like a double boiler, hot water is what cooks the
              contents. Here is a link to the BEAST.. Let me know what you
              think.. This is either going to be the ULTIMATE still or a big
              flop.. But, I have faith that it will be AWESOME!!
              http://www.groen.com:9097/products/kettles/spec_sheets/floor_mounted_
              kettles/EE-a.htm
              Take a look and let me know what you think.. EVERY idea is
              helpfull!!

              PJ

              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "nanosleep" <nanosleep@y...>
              wrote:
              > I use 1500 watts on a 2 inch diameter column. This
              > roughly equates to a power density of 477 watts per
              > square inch. If I run 3000 watts the column will flood
              > (954 watts per square inch). I am assuming a larger
              > column can handle a similar power density. In order
              > to handle 21.6Kw of power you'll need about 45 sq.in.
              > of cross sectional area. This equates to about an
              > 8 inch diameter column (50.2 sq.in.)!!!!!!!!!
              > You'll need a warehouse of fermenters to keep that
              > beast fed. Also I'm not sure my 'back of the
              > envelope' calculations are appropriate for that
              > large of a column. You may require an even larger
              > column to handle 21.6Kw. I have no experience
              > on that scale of power.
              >
              > I'd recommend using a 3 inch column that is as tall
              > as will fit within your building. You'll be happier
              > with a very tall still. It's much easier to get
              > clean vodkas. Also, it's easier to detune a tall
              > still than it is to improve a short one. You can
              > run with little or no reflux when you want to keep
              > the flavors.
              > You are going to need a method to reduce the power
              > down to a managable level (3kw). Connecting all or
              > part of the elements in series will reduce power.
              > Switching the elements back into a parallel hook
              > up will increase the power output. Having
              > the extra power capacity would be great for 'instant'
              > startup time. However, you'll have to be careful
              > about burning your wash with that much power.
              >
              > -A
              >
              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, P E <pjevolley@y...> wrote:
              > > Nope... According to the specs on this steam cooker
              > > it is 21.6kw total and I think that is spread out
              > > between 6 heating elements... It is currently 208v 3
              > > phase but I am going to convert it to single phase so
              > > I can use it.. When it is done, I will post pics..
              > > It should be the ultimate still!!! Can't wait to get
              > > it up and working....
              > > PJ
              > >
            • Zoran Vujcic
              What is the price of this unit? Z ... From: pjevolley To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 5:56 PM Subject: [new_distillers] Re:
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 5, 2003
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                What is the price of this unit?
                Z
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: pjevolley
                Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 5:56 PM
                Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Reflux column size

                Thanks for all the info..  This steam cooker has 6 heating elements
                totalling 21.6kw.  If my math is correct, that is 6, 3600w
                elements.  I have rewired this unit to run single phase (from 3
                phase) and I wired it to only use 4 of the 6 elements which should
                bring it down to 14.4kw.  This cooker is a 40 gal steam cooker which
                is kind of like a double boiler, hot water is what cooks the
                contents.  Here is a link to the BEAST..  Let me know what you
                think..  This is either going to be the ULTIMATE still or a big
                flop..  But, I have faith that it will be AWESOME!!
                http://www.groen.com:9097/products/kettles/spec_sheets/floor_mounted_
                kettles/EE-a.htm
                Take a look and let me know what you think..  EVERY idea is
                helpfull!!

                PJ

                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "nanosleep" <nanosleep@y...>
                wrote:
                > I use 1500 watts on a 2 inch diameter column.  This
                > roughly equates to a power density of 477 watts per
                > square inch.  If I run 3000 watts the column will flood
                > (954 watts per square inch).  I am assuming a larger
                > column can handle a similar power density.  In order
                > to handle 21.6Kw of power you'll need about 45 sq.in.
                > of cross sectional area.  This equates to about an
                > 8 inch diameter column (50.2 sq.in.)!!!!!!!!!
                > You'll need a warehouse of fermenters to keep that
                > beast fed.  Also I'm not sure my 'back of the
                > envelope' calculations are appropriate for that
                > large of a column.  You may require an even larger
                > column to handle 21.6Kw.  I have no experience
                > on that scale of power.
                >
                > I'd recommend using a 3 inch column that is as tall
                > as will fit within your building.  You'll be happier
                > with a very tall still.  It's much easier to get
                > clean vodkas.  Also, it's easier to detune a tall
                > still than it is to improve a short one.  You can
                > run with little or no reflux when you want to keep
                > the flavors.
                > You are going to need a method to reduce the power
                > down to a managable level (3kw).  Connecting all or
                > part of the elements in series will reduce power.
                > Switching the elements back into a parallel hook
                > up will increase the power output.  Having
                > the extra power capacity would be great for 'instant'
                > startup time.  However, you'll have to be careful
                > about burning your wash with that much power.
                >
                > -A
                >
                > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, P E <pjevolley@y...> wrote:
                > > Nope...   According to the specs on this steam cooker
                > > it is 21.6kw total and I think that is spread out
                > > between 6 heating elements...  It is currently 208v 3
                > > phase but I am going to convert it to single phase so
                > > I can use it..  When it is done, I will post pics..
                > > It should be the ultimate still!!!  Can't wait to get
                > > it up and working.... 
                > > PJ
                > >



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              • Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)
                PJ - I m with nano on this one. 21kW would be great as a stripping still (pot still setup), but will be a tad too industrial sized to be practical as a pot
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 5, 2003
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                  PJ - I'm with nano on this one. 21kW would be great as a stripping still (pot still setup), but will be a tad too industrial sized to be practical as a pot still. I estimate approx 7 inch diameter required if packed with scrubbers - but thats not practical - would be too difficult to evenly place them, so you'd probably need to go up to say 8-10" and use raschig rings instead. Why not stick with just 3600W and a 3" column for the reflux mode. If you try using all that power in a too-narrow column, all you are going to do is blow all the vapour & reflux straight out the top of it - none of the reflux will get the opportunity to come back down and do its business.

                  ps - trying 21kW in my calculator at HomeDistiller gives some really weird answers. Methinks I may need to remove that page until I can sort it out.

                  Tony
                • pjevolley
                  This is thermostatically controlled and when I rewired it from 3 phase to single phase, I only connected 4 of the 6 heating ellements. So, I can heat slow
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 5, 2003
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                    This is thermostatically controlled and when I rewired it from 3
                    phase to single phase, I only connected 4 of the 6 heating
                    ellements. So, I can heat slow with the thermostat control and
                    should be pretty consistant as the elements heat the liquid that
                    surrounds the pot instead of the elements heating the wash it's
                    self. This should give me a little better results I hope...
                    I think we are going to try a run this weekend if I can get the
                    column refitted to this pot..
                    This cooker costs about $10,000 new!!!!! We picked it up at an
                    auction for $120.00!!!! So, if it doesn't work,,,, EBAY!!!!!



                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)"
                    <Tony.Ackland@c...> wrote:
                    > PJ - I'm with nano on this one. 21kW would be great as a
                    stripping still (pot still setup), but will be a tad too industrial
                    sized to be practical as a pot still. I estimate approx 7 inch
                    diameter required if packed with scrubbers - but thats not
                    practical - would be too difficult to evenly place them, so you'd
                    probably need to go up to say 8-10" and use raschig rings instead.
                    Why not stick with just 3600W and a 3" column for the reflux mode.
                    If you try using all that power in a too-narrow column, all you are
                    going to do is blow all the vapour & reflux straight out the top of
                    it - none of the reflux will get the opportunity to come back down
                    and do its business.
                    >
                    > ps - trying 21kW in my calculator at HomeDistiller gives some
                    really weird answers. Methinks I may need to remove that page until
                    I can sort it out.
                    >
                    > Tony
                  • pjevolley
                    Well, new this unit is about $10,000. We picked it up at an auction for $120.00.. (Yes, that is TEN THOUSAND dollars) I LOVE auctions.. LOLOL ... elements
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 5, 2003
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                      Well, new this unit is about $10,000. We picked it up at an auction
                      for $120.00.. (Yes, that is TEN THOUSAND dollars) I LOVE
                      auctions.. LOLOL



                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Zoran Vujcic" <zvujcic@v...>
                      wrote:
                      > What is the price of this unit?
                      > Z
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: pjevolley
                      > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 5:56 PM
                      > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Reflux column size
                      >
                      >
                      > Thanks for all the info.. This steam cooker has 6 heating
                      elements
                      > totalling 21.6kw. If my math is correct, that is 6, 3600w
                      > elements. I have rewired this unit to run single phase (from 3
                      > phase) and I wired it to only use 4 of the 6 elements which
                      should
                      > bring it down to 14.4kw. This cooker is a 40 gal steam cooker
                      which
                      > is kind of like a double boiler, hot water is what cooks the
                      > contents. Here is a link to the BEAST.. Let me know what you
                      > think.. This is either going to be the ULTIMATE still or a big
                      > flop.. But, I have faith that it will be AWESOME!!
                      >
                      http://www.groen.com:9097/products/kettles/spec_sheets/floor_mounted_
                      > kettles/EE-a.htm
                      > Take a look and let me know what you think.. EVERY idea is
                      > helpfull!!
                      >
                      > PJ
                      >
                      > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "nanosleep"
                      <nanosleep@y...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > I use 1500 watts on a 2 inch diameter column. This
                      > > roughly equates to a power density of 477 watts per
                      > > square inch. If I run 3000 watts the column will flood
                      > > (954 watts per square inch). I am assuming a larger
                      > > column can handle a similar power density. In order
                      > > to handle 21.6Kw of power you'll need about 45 sq.in.
                      > > of cross sectional area. This equates to about an
                      > > 8 inch diameter column (50.2 sq.in.)!!!!!!!!!
                      > > You'll need a warehouse of fermenters to keep that
                      > > beast fed. Also I'm not sure my 'back of the
                      > > envelope' calculations are appropriate for that
                      > > large of a column. You may require an even larger
                      > > column to handle 21.6Kw. I have no experience
                      > > on that scale of power.
                      > >
                      > > I'd recommend using a 3 inch column that is as tall
                      > > as will fit within your building. You'll be happier
                      > > with a very tall still. It's much easier to get
                      > > clean vodkas. Also, it's easier to detune a tall
                      > > still than it is to improve a short one. You can
                      > > run with little or no reflux when you want to keep
                      > > the flavors.
                      > > You are going to need a method to reduce the power
                      > > down to a managable level (3kw). Connecting all or
                      > > part of the elements in series will reduce power.
                      > > Switching the elements back into a parallel hook
                      > > up will increase the power output. Having
                      > > the extra power capacity would be great for 'instant'
                      > > startup time. However, you'll have to be careful
                      > > about burning your wash with that much power.
                      > >
                      > > -A
                      > >
                      > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, P E <pjevolley@y...>
                      wrote:
                      > > > Nope... According to the specs on this steam cooker
                      > > > it is 21.6kw total and I think that is spread out
                      > > > between 6 heating elements... It is currently 208v 3
                      > > > phase but I am going to convert it to single phase so
                      > > > I can use it.. When it is done, I will post pics..
                      > > > It should be the ultimate still!!! Can't wait to get
                      > > > it up and working....
                      > > > PJ
                      > > >
                      >
                      >
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                    • Brandon Lee
                      well all i can say is that if it doesn t work-- give me a shot at it-- Groen makes these cookers in my home town and one of my good friends who we do
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 5, 2003
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                        well all i can say is that if it doesn't work-- give me a shot at it-- Groen makes these cookers in my home town and one of my good friends who we do competition cookoff's with is the manager of the fabrication plant here---yes he is correct-- it is the ultimate cooking kettle--they have a gas fired one that is even better but again really pricey-- their training kitchen here is probably the very best equipped u will ever see -- just a questimate on the equipment cost would be well into the six figure range-

                        your brother in the spirits

                        Blueflame456

                         pjevolley <pjevolley@...> wrote:

                        This is thermostatically controlled and when I rewired it from 3
                        phase to single phase, I only connected 4 of the 6 heating
                        ellements.  So, I can heat slow with the thermostat control and
                        should be pretty consistant as the elements heat the liquid that
                        surrounds the pot instead of the elements heating the wash it's
                        self.  This should give me a little better results I hope...  
                        I think we are going to try a run this weekend if I can get the
                        column refitted to this pot.. 
                        This cooker costs about $10,000 new!!!!!   We picked it up at an
                        auction for $120.00!!!!  So, if it doesn't work,,,, EBAY!!!!! 



                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)"
                        <Tony.Ackland@c...> wrote:
                        > PJ - I'm with nano on this one.  21kW would be great as a
                        stripping still (pot still setup), but will be a tad too industrial
                        sized to be practical as a pot still.  I estimate  approx 7 inch
                        diameter required if packed with scrubbers - but thats not
                        practical - would be too difficult to evenly place them, so you'd
                        probably need to go up to say 8-10" and use raschig rings instead. 
                        Why not stick with just 3600W and a 3" column for the reflux mode. 
                        If you try using all that power in a too-narrow column, all you are
                        going to do is blow all the vapour & reflux straight out the top of
                        it - none of the reflux will get the opportunity to come back down
                        and do its business.
                        >
                        > ps - trying 21kW in my calculator at HomeDistiller gives some
                        really weird answers.  Methinks I may need to remove that page until
                        I can sort it out.
                        >
                        > Tony



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                      • stillyaakman
                        Here s my two cents I have a 10 gal. Groen kettle @ 10 kw.208v.3ph. One of the elements was open so I rewired it as 1ph.parallel @240v. which still comes out
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 5, 2003
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                          Here's my two cents
                          I have a 10 gal. Groen kettle @ 10 kw.208v.3ph. One of the elements
                          was open so I rewired it as 1ph.parallel @240v. which still comes out
                          as 10kw. I am going to add a 1/2 barrel keg to the top of it and end
                          up with 25.5 gal.
                          The real beauty of the kettle is the control you have of the temp.
                          the steam jacket is thermostaticly controled and eleminates any
                          problems you would have with surge boiling. I think it will take a
                          little tinkering to learn where to set the control for the best power
                          input.
                          Another nice feature of the jacketed kettle is protection of the mash
                          from burning against a hot element.
                          Really any size column (that wasn't too large) is doable. but larger
                          will give more volume output per hour.
                          Dan
                        • pjevolley
                          OK!! Test run was Sat. night.. Here s what happened and my next question... This cooker is AWESOME!!!! With the thermostatic control, the wash stayed at a
                          Message 12 of 17 , Mar 10, 2003
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                            OK!! Test run was Sat. night.. Here's what happened and my next
                            question... This cooker is AWESOME!!!! With the thermostatic
                            control, the wash stayed at a CONSTANT temp.. PERFECT.. I added
                            about 16 inches to the column which was 36" to start with.. My
                            QUESTION: The original column was packed with copper scrubber pads
                            approx the first 16" of the column. With this on a 10gal pot for
                            cooking (with about 6gal of wash) we would get consistant flow when
                            the column temp was over 77 degrees C. the temp in the column was
                            pretty constant considering we were cooking outside on a turkey
                            frier LP cooker. With the new cooker and the increased column
                            length, we packed NEW stainless scrubbers about 20" - 24" into the
                            column. While cooking, the column temp seemed to fluxuate about 1-2
                            degrees, back and forth and the output was very spuratic.
                            ANY ideas on the cause? We kinda think maybe the scrubbers are too
                            dense, causing restricted flow and not allowing the vapor to reach
                            the top of the column (where the thermometer is) at a constant
                            rate. ANY IDEAS?????
                            Thanks, PJ

                            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "stillyaakman"
                            <stillyaakman@y...> wrote:
                            > Here's my two cents
                            > I have a 10 gal. Groen kettle @ 10 kw.208v.3ph. One of the
                            elements
                            > was open so I rewired it as 1ph.parallel @240v. which still comes
                            out
                            > as 10kw. I am going to add a 1/2 barrel keg to the top of it and
                            end
                            > up with 25.5 gal.
                            > The real beauty of the kettle is the control you have of the temp.
                            > the steam jacket is thermostaticly controled and eleminates any
                            > problems you would have with surge boiling. I think it will take a
                            > little tinkering to learn where to set the control for the best
                            power
                            > input.
                            > Another nice feature of the jacketed kettle is protection of the
                            mash
                            > from burning against a hot element.
                            > Really any size column (that wasn't too large) is doable. but
                            larger
                            > will give more volume output per hour.
                            > Dan
                          • Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)
                            Sounds like you ve packed the scrubbers too tight. They should be nice and loose - like as loose as just sitting on the table. Even tease them out a little if
                            Message 13 of 17 , Mar 10, 2003
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                              Sounds like you've packed the scrubbers too tight. They should be nice and loose - like as loose as just sitting on the table. Even tease them out a little if necessary. I'd also suggest that you pack the entire 52" of the column. Any empty space in there is just doing nothing.

                              Tony
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