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Re: [new_distillers] Reflux column size

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  • BOKAKOB
    keep the same column, add anoterh 12 inches of height PJEVolley wrote:Here s the story... We currently have a 10
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 3, 2003

      keep the same column, add anoterh 12 inches of height

       "PJEVolley <pjevolley@...>" <pjevolley@...> wrote:

      Here's the story...  We currently have a 10 gal reflux still with
      the reflux column size of 2 inch by 36 inch.  We are upgrading to a
      40 gallon reflux still and we didn't know what size column to
      build.  Any ideas or rules of thumb to follow??  We were thinking of
      building a 3 inch column..
      Thanks in advance.



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      I can be wrong I must say.
      Cheers, Alex...



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    • Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)
      ... I hope thats 2x 1.6 kW, not 21.6 kW ? If a total of 3.2kW, then yes, 3 inch diameter should be suitable. Tony
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 3, 2003
        > It has 21.6KW heating elements.

        I hope thats 2x 1.6 kW, not 21.6 kW ?
        If a total of 3.2kW, then yes, 3 inch diameter should be suitable.

        Tony
      • P E
        Nope... According to the specs on this steam cooker it is 21.6kw total and I think that is spread out between 6 heating elements... It is currently 208v 3
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 3, 2003
          Nope... According to the specs on this steam cooker
          it is 21.6kw total and I think that is spread out
          between 6 heating elements... It is currently 208v 3
          phase but I am going to convert it to single phase so
          I can use it.. When it is done, I will post pics..
          It should be the ultimate still!!! Can't wait to get
          it up and working....
          PJ


          --- "Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)"
          <Tony.Ackland@...> wrote:
          > > It has 21.6KW heating elements.
          >
          > I hope thats 2x 1.6 kW, not 21.6 kW ?
          > If a total of 3.2kW, then yes, 3 inch diameter
          > should be suitable.
          >
          > Tony
          >


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        • peter_vcb <viciousblackout@yahoo.com>
          you could wire the 6 elements up nicely and have great power contol. i had a 3 inch column and it was a perfect size for scrubbers, any larger and you will
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 4, 2003
            you could wire the 6 elements up nicely and have great power contol.
            i had a 3 inch column and it was a perfect size for scrubbers, any
            larger and you will have trouble unless you get some copper mesh from
            the 2 Mikes.


            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "PJEVolley <pjevolley@y...>"
            <pjevolley@y...> wrote:
            > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)"
            > <Tony.Ackland@c...> wrote:
            > > > Here's the story... We currently have a 10 gal reflux still
            > with
            > > > the reflux column size of 2 inch by 36 inch. We are upgrading
            > to a
            > > > 40 gallon reflux still and we didn't know what size column to
            > > > build. Any ideas or rules of thumb to follow?? We were
            > thinking of
            > > > building a 3 inch column..
            > >
            > > If you are using the same heat source, then the old column will
            > still work fine. You only need to make the column wider if you are
            > going to be using more heat.
            > >
            > > Tony
            >
            > We are going from a turkey frier propane source to a Groen 208v 40
            > gal steam cooker. It has 21.6KW heating elements. and heats up to
            > 270deg with a thermostatic control.
          • nanosleep
            I use 1500 watts on a 2 inch diameter column. This roughly equates to a power density of 477 watts per square inch. If I run 3000 watts the column will flood
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 4, 2003
              I use 1500 watts on a 2 inch diameter column. This
              roughly equates to a power density of 477 watts per
              square inch. If I run 3000 watts the column will flood
              (954 watts per square inch). I am assuming a larger
              column can handle a similar power density. In order
              to handle 21.6Kw of power you'll need about 45 sq.in.
              of cross sectional area. This equates to about an
              8 inch diameter column (50.2 sq.in.)!!!!!!!!!
              You'll need a warehouse of fermenters to keep that
              beast fed. Also I'm not sure my 'back of the
              envelope' calculations are appropriate for that
              large of a column. You may require an even larger
              column to handle 21.6Kw. I have no experience
              on that scale of power.

              I'd recommend using a 3 inch column that is as tall
              as will fit within your building. You'll be happier
              with a very tall still. It's much easier to get
              clean vodkas. Also, it's easier to detune a tall
              still than it is to improve a short one. You can
              run with little or no reflux when you want to keep
              the flavors.
              You are going to need a method to reduce the power
              down to a managable level (3kw). Connecting all or
              part of the elements in series will reduce power.
              Switching the elements back into a parallel hook
              up will increase the power output. Having
              the extra power capacity would be great for 'instant'
              startup time. However, you'll have to be careful
              about burning your wash with that much power.

              -A

              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, P E <pjevolley@y...> wrote:
              > Nope... According to the specs on this steam cooker
              > it is 21.6kw total and I think that is spread out
              > between 6 heating elements... It is currently 208v 3
              > phase but I am going to convert it to single phase so
              > I can use it.. When it is done, I will post pics..
              > It should be the ultimate still!!! Can't wait to get
              > it up and working....
              > PJ
              >
            • pjevolley
              Thanks for all the info.. This steam cooker has 6 heating elements totalling 21.6kw. If my math is correct, that is 6, 3600w elements. I have rewired this
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 5, 2003
                Thanks for all the info.. This steam cooker has 6 heating elements
                totalling 21.6kw. If my math is correct, that is 6, 3600w
                elements. I have rewired this unit to run single phase (from 3
                phase) and I wired it to only use 4 of the 6 elements which should
                bring it down to 14.4kw. This cooker is a 40 gal steam cooker which
                is kind of like a double boiler, hot water is what cooks the
                contents. Here is a link to the BEAST.. Let me know what you
                think.. This is either going to be the ULTIMATE still or a big
                flop.. But, I have faith that it will be AWESOME!!
                http://www.groen.com:9097/products/kettles/spec_sheets/floor_mounted_
                kettles/EE-a.htm
                Take a look and let me know what you think.. EVERY idea is
                helpfull!!

                PJ

                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "nanosleep" <nanosleep@y...>
                wrote:
                > I use 1500 watts on a 2 inch diameter column. This
                > roughly equates to a power density of 477 watts per
                > square inch. If I run 3000 watts the column will flood
                > (954 watts per square inch). I am assuming a larger
                > column can handle a similar power density. In order
                > to handle 21.6Kw of power you'll need about 45 sq.in.
                > of cross sectional area. This equates to about an
                > 8 inch diameter column (50.2 sq.in.)!!!!!!!!!
                > You'll need a warehouse of fermenters to keep that
                > beast fed. Also I'm not sure my 'back of the
                > envelope' calculations are appropriate for that
                > large of a column. You may require an even larger
                > column to handle 21.6Kw. I have no experience
                > on that scale of power.
                >
                > I'd recommend using a 3 inch column that is as tall
                > as will fit within your building. You'll be happier
                > with a very tall still. It's much easier to get
                > clean vodkas. Also, it's easier to detune a tall
                > still than it is to improve a short one. You can
                > run with little or no reflux when you want to keep
                > the flavors.
                > You are going to need a method to reduce the power
                > down to a managable level (3kw). Connecting all or
                > part of the elements in series will reduce power.
                > Switching the elements back into a parallel hook
                > up will increase the power output. Having
                > the extra power capacity would be great for 'instant'
                > startup time. However, you'll have to be careful
                > about burning your wash with that much power.
                >
                > -A
                >
                > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, P E <pjevolley@y...> wrote:
                > > Nope... According to the specs on this steam cooker
                > > it is 21.6kw total and I think that is spread out
                > > between 6 heating elements... It is currently 208v 3
                > > phase but I am going to convert it to single phase so
                > > I can use it.. When it is done, I will post pics..
                > > It should be the ultimate still!!! Can't wait to get
                > > it up and working....
                > > PJ
                > >
              • Zoran Vujcic
                What is the price of this unit? Z ... From: pjevolley To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 5:56 PM Subject: [new_distillers] Re:
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 5, 2003
                  What is the price of this unit?
                  Z
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: pjevolley
                  Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 5:56 PM
                  Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Reflux column size

                  Thanks for all the info..  This steam cooker has 6 heating elements
                  totalling 21.6kw.  If my math is correct, that is 6, 3600w
                  elements.  I have rewired this unit to run single phase (from 3
                  phase) and I wired it to only use 4 of the 6 elements which should
                  bring it down to 14.4kw.  This cooker is a 40 gal steam cooker which
                  is kind of like a double boiler, hot water is what cooks the
                  contents.  Here is a link to the BEAST..  Let me know what you
                  think..  This is either going to be the ULTIMATE still or a big
                  flop..  But, I have faith that it will be AWESOME!!
                  http://www.groen.com:9097/products/kettles/spec_sheets/floor_mounted_
                  kettles/EE-a.htm
                  Take a look and let me know what you think..  EVERY idea is
                  helpfull!!

                  PJ

                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "nanosleep" <nanosleep@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > I use 1500 watts on a 2 inch diameter column.  This
                  > roughly equates to a power density of 477 watts per
                  > square inch.  If I run 3000 watts the column will flood
                  > (954 watts per square inch).  I am assuming a larger
                  > column can handle a similar power density.  In order
                  > to handle 21.6Kw of power you'll need about 45 sq.in.
                  > of cross sectional area.  This equates to about an
                  > 8 inch diameter column (50.2 sq.in.)!!!!!!!!!
                  > You'll need a warehouse of fermenters to keep that
                  > beast fed.  Also I'm not sure my 'back of the
                  > envelope' calculations are appropriate for that
                  > large of a column.  You may require an even larger
                  > column to handle 21.6Kw.  I have no experience
                  > on that scale of power.
                  >
                  > I'd recommend using a 3 inch column that is as tall
                  > as will fit within your building.  You'll be happier
                  > with a very tall still.  It's much easier to get
                  > clean vodkas.  Also, it's easier to detune a tall
                  > still than it is to improve a short one.  You can
                  > run with little or no reflux when you want to keep
                  > the flavors.
                  > You are going to need a method to reduce the power
                  > down to a managable level (3kw).  Connecting all or
                  > part of the elements in series will reduce power.
                  > Switching the elements back into a parallel hook
                  > up will increase the power output.  Having
                  > the extra power capacity would be great for 'instant'
                  > startup time.  However, you'll have to be careful
                  > about burning your wash with that much power.
                  >
                  > -A
                  >
                  > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, P E <pjevolley@y...> wrote:
                  > > Nope...   According to the specs on this steam cooker
                  > > it is 21.6kw total and I think that is spread out
                  > > between 6 heating elements...  It is currently 208v 3
                  > > phase but I am going to convert it to single phase so
                  > > I can use it..  When it is done, I will post pics..
                  > > It should be the ultimate still!!!  Can't wait to get
                  > > it up and working.... 
                  > > PJ
                  > >



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                  new_distillers-unsubscribe@onelist.com



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                • Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)
                  PJ - I m with nano on this one. 21kW would be great as a stripping still (pot still setup), but will be a tad too industrial sized to be practical as a pot
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 5, 2003
                    PJ - I'm with nano on this one. 21kW would be great as a stripping still (pot still setup), but will be a tad too industrial sized to be practical as a pot still. I estimate approx 7 inch diameter required if packed with scrubbers - but thats not practical - would be too difficult to evenly place them, so you'd probably need to go up to say 8-10" and use raschig rings instead. Why not stick with just 3600W and a 3" column for the reflux mode. If you try using all that power in a too-narrow column, all you are going to do is blow all the vapour & reflux straight out the top of it - none of the reflux will get the opportunity to come back down and do its business.

                    ps - trying 21kW in my calculator at HomeDistiller gives some really weird answers. Methinks I may need to remove that page until I can sort it out.

                    Tony
                  • pjevolley
                    This is thermostatically controlled and when I rewired it from 3 phase to single phase, I only connected 4 of the 6 heating ellements. So, I can heat slow
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 5, 2003
                      This is thermostatically controlled and when I rewired it from 3
                      phase to single phase, I only connected 4 of the 6 heating
                      ellements. So, I can heat slow with the thermostat control and
                      should be pretty consistant as the elements heat the liquid that
                      surrounds the pot instead of the elements heating the wash it's
                      self. This should give me a little better results I hope...
                      I think we are going to try a run this weekend if I can get the
                      column refitted to this pot..
                      This cooker costs about $10,000 new!!!!! We picked it up at an
                      auction for $120.00!!!! So, if it doesn't work,,,, EBAY!!!!!



                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)"
                      <Tony.Ackland@c...> wrote:
                      > PJ - I'm with nano on this one. 21kW would be great as a
                      stripping still (pot still setup), but will be a tad too industrial
                      sized to be practical as a pot still. I estimate approx 7 inch
                      diameter required if packed with scrubbers - but thats not
                      practical - would be too difficult to evenly place them, so you'd
                      probably need to go up to say 8-10" and use raschig rings instead.
                      Why not stick with just 3600W and a 3" column for the reflux mode.
                      If you try using all that power in a too-narrow column, all you are
                      going to do is blow all the vapour & reflux straight out the top of
                      it - none of the reflux will get the opportunity to come back down
                      and do its business.
                      >
                      > ps - trying 21kW in my calculator at HomeDistiller gives some
                      really weird answers. Methinks I may need to remove that page until
                      I can sort it out.
                      >
                      > Tony
                    • pjevolley
                      Well, new this unit is about $10,000. We picked it up at an auction for $120.00.. (Yes, that is TEN THOUSAND dollars) I LOVE auctions.. LOLOL ... elements
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 5, 2003
                        Well, new this unit is about $10,000. We picked it up at an auction
                        for $120.00.. (Yes, that is TEN THOUSAND dollars) I LOVE
                        auctions.. LOLOL



                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Zoran Vujcic" <zvujcic@v...>
                        wrote:
                        > What is the price of this unit?
                        > Z
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: pjevolley
                        > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 5:56 PM
                        > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Reflux column size
                        >
                        >
                        > Thanks for all the info.. This steam cooker has 6 heating
                        elements
                        > totalling 21.6kw. If my math is correct, that is 6, 3600w
                        > elements. I have rewired this unit to run single phase (from 3
                        > phase) and I wired it to only use 4 of the 6 elements which
                        should
                        > bring it down to 14.4kw. This cooker is a 40 gal steam cooker
                        which
                        > is kind of like a double boiler, hot water is what cooks the
                        > contents. Here is a link to the BEAST.. Let me know what you
                        > think.. This is either going to be the ULTIMATE still or a big
                        > flop.. But, I have faith that it will be AWESOME!!
                        >
                        http://www.groen.com:9097/products/kettles/spec_sheets/floor_mounted_
                        > kettles/EE-a.htm
                        > Take a look and let me know what you think.. EVERY idea is
                        > helpfull!!
                        >
                        > PJ
                        >
                        > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "nanosleep"
                        <nanosleep@y...>
                        > wrote:
                        > > I use 1500 watts on a 2 inch diameter column. This
                        > > roughly equates to a power density of 477 watts per
                        > > square inch. If I run 3000 watts the column will flood
                        > > (954 watts per square inch). I am assuming a larger
                        > > column can handle a similar power density. In order
                        > > to handle 21.6Kw of power you'll need about 45 sq.in.
                        > > of cross sectional area. This equates to about an
                        > > 8 inch diameter column (50.2 sq.in.)!!!!!!!!!
                        > > You'll need a warehouse of fermenters to keep that
                        > > beast fed. Also I'm not sure my 'back of the
                        > > envelope' calculations are appropriate for that
                        > > large of a column. You may require an even larger
                        > > column to handle 21.6Kw. I have no experience
                        > > on that scale of power.
                        > >
                        > > I'd recommend using a 3 inch column that is as tall
                        > > as will fit within your building. You'll be happier
                        > > with a very tall still. It's much easier to get
                        > > clean vodkas. Also, it's easier to detune a tall
                        > > still than it is to improve a short one. You can
                        > > run with little or no reflux when you want to keep
                        > > the flavors.
                        > > You are going to need a method to reduce the power
                        > > down to a managable level (3kw). Connecting all or
                        > > part of the elements in series will reduce power.
                        > > Switching the elements back into a parallel hook
                        > > up will increase the power output. Having
                        > > the extra power capacity would be great for 'instant'
                        > > startup time. However, you'll have to be careful
                        > > about burning your wash with that much power.
                        > >
                        > > -A
                        > >
                        > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, P E <pjevolley@y...>
                        wrote:
                        > > > Nope... According to the specs on this steam cooker
                        > > > it is 21.6kw total and I think that is spread out
                        > > > between 6 heating elements... It is currently 208v 3
                        > > > phase but I am going to convert it to single phase so
                        > > > I can use it.. When it is done, I will post pics..
                        > > > It should be the ultimate still!!! Can't wait to get
                        > > > it up and working....
                        > > > PJ
                        > > >
                        >
                        >
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                      • Brandon Lee
                        well all i can say is that if it doesn t work-- give me a shot at it-- Groen makes these cookers in my home town and one of my good friends who we do
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 5, 2003

                          well all i can say is that if it doesn't work-- give me a shot at it-- Groen makes these cookers in my home town and one of my good friends who we do competition cookoff's with is the manager of the fabrication plant here---yes he is correct-- it is the ultimate cooking kettle--they have a gas fired one that is even better but again really pricey-- their training kitchen here is probably the very best equipped u will ever see -- just a questimate on the equipment cost would be well into the six figure range-

                          your brother in the spirits

                          Blueflame456

                           pjevolley <pjevolley@...> wrote:

                          This is thermostatically controlled and when I rewired it from 3
                          phase to single phase, I only connected 4 of the 6 heating
                          ellements.  So, I can heat slow with the thermostat control and
                          should be pretty consistant as the elements heat the liquid that
                          surrounds the pot instead of the elements heating the wash it's
                          self.  This should give me a little better results I hope...  
                          I think we are going to try a run this weekend if I can get the
                          column refitted to this pot.. 
                          This cooker costs about $10,000 new!!!!!   We picked it up at an
                          auction for $120.00!!!!  So, if it doesn't work,,,, EBAY!!!!! 



                          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)"
                          <Tony.Ackland@c...> wrote:
                          > PJ - I'm with nano on this one.  21kW would be great as a
                          stripping still (pot still setup), but will be a tad too industrial
                          sized to be practical as a pot still.  I estimate  approx 7 inch
                          diameter required if packed with scrubbers - but thats not
                          practical - would be too difficult to evenly place them, so you'd
                          probably need to go up to say 8-10" and use raschig rings instead. 
                          Why not stick with just 3600W and a 3" column for the reflux mode. 
                          If you try using all that power in a too-narrow column, all you are
                          going to do is blow all the vapour & reflux straight out the top of
                          it - none of the reflux will get the opportunity to come back down
                          and do its business.
                          >
                          > ps - trying 21kW in my calculator at HomeDistiller gives some
                          really weird answers.  Methinks I may need to remove that page until
                          I can sort it out.
                          >
                          > Tony



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                        • stillyaakman
                          Here s my two cents I have a 10 gal. Groen kettle @ 10 kw.208v.3ph. One of the elements was open so I rewired it as 1ph.parallel @240v. which still comes out
                          Message 12 of 17 , Mar 5, 2003
                            Here's my two cents
                            I have a 10 gal. Groen kettle @ 10 kw.208v.3ph. One of the elements
                            was open so I rewired it as 1ph.parallel @240v. which still comes out
                            as 10kw. I am going to add a 1/2 barrel keg to the top of it and end
                            up with 25.5 gal.
                            The real beauty of the kettle is the control you have of the temp.
                            the steam jacket is thermostaticly controled and eleminates any
                            problems you would have with surge boiling. I think it will take a
                            little tinkering to learn where to set the control for the best power
                            input.
                            Another nice feature of the jacketed kettle is protection of the mash
                            from burning against a hot element.
                            Really any size column (that wasn't too large) is doable. but larger
                            will give more volume output per hour.
                            Dan
                          • pjevolley
                            OK!! Test run was Sat. night.. Here s what happened and my next question... This cooker is AWESOME!!!! With the thermostatic control, the wash stayed at a
                            Message 13 of 17 , Mar 10, 2003
                              OK!! Test run was Sat. night.. Here's what happened and my next
                              question... This cooker is AWESOME!!!! With the thermostatic
                              control, the wash stayed at a CONSTANT temp.. PERFECT.. I added
                              about 16 inches to the column which was 36" to start with.. My
                              QUESTION: The original column was packed with copper scrubber pads
                              approx the first 16" of the column. With this on a 10gal pot for
                              cooking (with about 6gal of wash) we would get consistant flow when
                              the column temp was over 77 degrees C. the temp in the column was
                              pretty constant considering we were cooking outside on a turkey
                              frier LP cooker. With the new cooker and the increased column
                              length, we packed NEW stainless scrubbers about 20" - 24" into the
                              column. While cooking, the column temp seemed to fluxuate about 1-2
                              degrees, back and forth and the output was very spuratic.
                              ANY ideas on the cause? We kinda think maybe the scrubbers are too
                              dense, causing restricted flow and not allowing the vapor to reach
                              the top of the column (where the thermometer is) at a constant
                              rate. ANY IDEAS?????
                              Thanks, PJ

                              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "stillyaakman"
                              <stillyaakman@y...> wrote:
                              > Here's my two cents
                              > I have a 10 gal. Groen kettle @ 10 kw.208v.3ph. One of the
                              elements
                              > was open so I rewired it as 1ph.parallel @240v. which still comes
                              out
                              > as 10kw. I am going to add a 1/2 barrel keg to the top of it and
                              end
                              > up with 25.5 gal.
                              > The real beauty of the kettle is the control you have of the temp.
                              > the steam jacket is thermostaticly controled and eleminates any
                              > problems you would have with surge boiling. I think it will take a
                              > little tinkering to learn where to set the control for the best
                              power
                              > input.
                              > Another nice feature of the jacketed kettle is protection of the
                              mash
                              > from burning against a hot element.
                              > Really any size column (that wasn't too large) is doable. but
                              larger
                              > will give more volume output per hour.
                              > Dan
                            • Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)
                              Sounds like you ve packed the scrubbers too tight. They should be nice and loose - like as loose as just sitting on the table. Even tease them out a little if
                              Message 14 of 17 , Mar 10, 2003
                                Sounds like you've packed the scrubbers too tight. They should be nice and loose - like as loose as just sitting on the table. Even tease them out a little if necessary. I'd also suggest that you pack the entire 52" of the column. Any empty space in there is just doing nothing.

                                Tony
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