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Re: [new_distillers] N/S output temp

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  • pjmuth
    Hi Tony, I m interested in the way you explain it as I ve always thought of it the other way around. I direct my cooling water into the coil so that it s cold
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 4, 2003
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      Hi Tony,

      I'm interested in the way you explain it as I've always thought of it the other way around.

      I direct my cooling water into the coil so that it's cold at the bottom of the condenser, progressively warmer as the vapour rises to the top. I thought that I wanted a very quick condense of vapor so that as soon as a droplet forms it would fall directly for reflux or collection. My theory (Lame as it might seem - lol.. ) is to only pull the latent heat from the substance, thus enhancing the reflux capability. As soon as the droplet falls - no more cooling thus refluxing and revaporization would only have to add back the latent heat of vaporization. My thinking? The compound would revaporize much higher in the column... No? Oh well, Oldtimers is setting in anyway.. lol...

      I seem to be able to run my condenser with very minimal water flow with waste water being fairly hot.  The collected condensate is also very hot., nearly the boiling point of the compound. (I also use a double helix cooling coil that presents a complex path for vapour travel. (Well, I think it is.. ))

      I'll have to try it the other way around to see if it makes a difference.. (You know: The time/temperature continuum.. i.e.. Star Wars.. lol...)

      Well anyway, when one stops thinking - one is really dead..!! No..?
      PJ

      PS: By the way - I greatly admire you, Mike Nixon, Mike McKaw and this group.. Great Information and fervor for the craft and the art......

      ----- Original Message -----

      Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 1:50 PM
      Subject: RE: [new_distillers] N/S output temp

      > After converting from a modifiyed Moonshine.com internal reflux to a N/S still, one thing bothers me. The collection temp seems very high (ie: the spirit going into the collection vessel feels about 50c). Is this normal ?

      Yes.  In this design, the coldest distillate (coming off the very top of the coil), gets to drip down and mix with "hotter" distillate forming on the lower part of the coil (where the water has heated up somewhat), so it can come out quite warm.  Its a bit different to the regular style of jacketed condenser, where you always have all the distillate exiting via the coldest part of the condenser.

      Tony
    • BOKAKOB
      I belive the reversal of cooling water flow should not affect the overall picture significantly to notice it. I can be wrong I must say. Cheers, Alex... ... Do
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 4, 2003
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        I belive the reversal of cooling water flow should not affect the overall picture significantly to notice it.



        I can be wrong I must say.
        Cheers, Alex...



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      • Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)
        PJ Things are basically as you do describe, maybe its just the way I ve tried to describe it. ... I ve tried both ways with my coil (either cold feed in down
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 4, 2003
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          PJ

          Things are basically as you do describe, maybe its just the way I've tried to describe it.

          > I'm interested in the way you explain it as I've always thought of it the other way around.
          > I direct my cooling water into the coil so that it's cold at the bottom of the condenser, progressively warmer as the vapour rises to the top.

          I've tried both ways with my coil (either cold feed in down through the center so coldest at bottom, or feed into the outer coil for coldest at top). Both work well. I've now left it as "coldest at top" just so that should any vapour be trying to sneak up past it, that if it does touch a bit of coil that that coil will be cold and definately condense it, as opposed to say it only coming in contact with a hot bit of the coil and not condensing. Given however that in both cases, even if the outlet water is quite warm (50-60C) it is still below the dewpoint of the vapour (78C), and the vapour will condense on the coil regardless.

          >I thought that I wanted a very quick condense of vapor so that as soon as a droplet forms it would fall directly for reflux or collection. My theory (Lame as it might seem - lol.. ) is to only pull the latent heat from the substance, thus enhancing the reflux capability. As soon as the droplet falls - no more cooling thus refluxing and revaporization would only have to add back the latent heat of vaporization. My thinking? The compound would revaporize much higher in the column... No? Oh well,

          No, thats not wrong, and a good theory to aim for in practice. However, the practicality of it is that if "X" amount of vapour has to be condensed, and you are using a set amount of cooling water, than that water will always heat up by "Y" degrees - hence, there will always be some vapour cooled on cooler sections of the coil, and some on warmer sections. In the "N/S" offset head design, the condensate all gets to mix with each other in the wee pool underneath the condensor, and will end up at an "average" temperature - and hence be warm.

          This is a different setup to a counter-current flow jacketed condensor, where you are aiming for the greatest/most efficient cooling by trying to maximise the "log mean temperature difference" by having the coldest water in at the condensate outlet. In that case, all the condensate gets to flow over the coldest section of the condensor. If you were to reverse the water direction in a jacketed setup (but still use the same amount of water), you'd notice that the condensate would be coming out warmer.

          I guess it comes down to how much extra cooling the condensor design gets to do, after its initially condensed the vapour. In the N/S setup, there is little more cooling that takes place, because the condensate gets to leave the condenser fairly quickly. In a jacketed setup, it would stay in contact with the condensor for longer, and get to lose more heat, and hence cool more.

          > I seem to be able to run my condenser with very minimal water flow with waste water being fairly hot. The collected condensate is also very hot., nearly the boiling point of the compound.

          Me too. No point using more water than is necessary, nor nothing achieved by having the reflux any colder when going back into the column

          > I'll have to try it the other way around to see if it makes a difference..

          See what you think. I couldnt really spot a difference.

          I think that the main distinction that needs to be made is that different designs need slightly different styles to operate them - eg just making sure that a "Nixon/Stone - Offset head" answer isn't the wrong advice for someone trying with a "World Class / MoonshineStill / StillMaker"

          Tony
        • Darryl Ward
          I always put the cold water in to the condensor at the bottom. The reason? As the cooling water rises, it completely surrounds the worm . If I reversed the
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 4, 2003
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            I always put the cold water in to the condensor at the bottom.

            The reason?

            As the cooling water rises, it completely surrounds the "worm".

            If I reversed the flow, the "worm" would only get splashed with water as it
            flowed down to the outlet, and the vapour would not be cooled to the same
            extent.

            Cheers

            Darryl

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)" <Tony.Ackland@...>
            To: <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 9:06 AM
            Subject: RE: [new_distillers] N/S output temp


            > PJ
            >
            > Things are basically as you do describe, maybe its just the way I've tried
            to describe it.
            >
            > > I'm interested in the way you explain it as I've always thought of it
            the other way around.
            > > I direct my cooling water into the coil so that it's cold at the bottom
            of the condenser, progressively warmer as the vapour rises to the top.
            >
            > I've tried both ways with my coil (either cold feed in down through the
            center so coldest at bottom, or feed into the outer coil for coldest at
            top). Both work well. I've now left it as "coldest at top" just so that
            should any vapour be trying to sneak up past it, that if it does touch a bit
            of coil that that coil will be cold and definately condense it, as opposed
            to say it only coming in contact with a hot bit of the coil and not
            condensing. Given however that in both cases, even if the outlet water is
            quite warm (50-60C) it is still below the dewpoint of the vapour (78C), and
            the vapour will condense on the coil regardless.
            >
            > >I thought that I wanted a very quick condense of vapor so that as soon as
            a droplet forms it would fall directly for reflux or collection. My theory
            (Lame as it might seem - lol.. ) is to only pull the latent heat from the
            substance, thus enhancing the reflux capability. As soon as the droplet
            falls - no more cooling thus refluxing and revaporization would only have to
            add back the latent heat of vaporization. My thinking? The compound would
            revaporize much higher in the column... No? Oh well,
            >
            > No, thats not wrong, and a good theory to aim for in practice. However,
            the practicality of it is that if "X" amount of vapour has to be condensed,
            and you are using a set amount of cooling water, than that water will always
            heat up by "Y" degrees - hence, there will always be some vapour cooled on
            cooler sections of the coil, and some on warmer sections. In the "N/S"
            offset head design, the condensate all gets to mix with each other in the
            wee pool underneath the condensor, and will end up at an "average"
            temperature - and hence be warm.
            >
            > This is a different setup to a counter-current flow jacketed condensor,
            where you are aiming for the greatest/most efficient cooling by trying to
            maximise the "log mean temperature difference" by having the coldest water
            in at the condensate outlet. In that case, all the condensate gets to flow
            over the coldest section of the condensor. If you were to reverse the
            water direction in a jacketed setup (but still use the same amount of
            water), you'd notice that the condensate would be coming out warmer.
            >
            > I guess it comes down to how much extra cooling the condensor design gets
            to do, after its initially condensed the vapour. In the N/S setup, there is
            little more cooling that takes place, because the condensate gets to leave
            the condenser fairly quickly. In a jacketed setup, it would stay in
            contact with the condensor for longer, and get to lose more heat, and hence
            cool more.
            >
            > > I seem to be able to run my condenser with very minimal water flow with
            waste water being fairly hot. The collected condensate is also very hot.,
            nearly the boiling point of the compound.
            >
            > Me too. No point using more water than is necessary, nor nothing achieved
            by having the reflux any colder when going back into the column
            >
            > > I'll have to try it the other way around to see if it makes a
            difference..
            >
            > See what you think. I couldnt really spot a difference.
            >
            > I think that the main distinction that needs to be made is that different
            designs need slightly different styles to operate them - eg just making sure
            that a "Nixon/Stone - Offset head" answer isn't the wrong advice for someone
            trying with a "World Class / MoonshineStill / StillMaker"
            >
            > Tony
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > new_distillers-unsubscribe@onelist.com
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
          • chic matthews
            What does N/S stand for? would someone post a link so I can see one please. ... __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 4, 2003
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              What does N/S stand for? would someone post a link so
              I can see one please.
              --- Shane Kirkman <shanekirkman@...> wrote:
              > Short story-
              > After converting from a modifiyed Moonshine.com
              > internal reflux to a N/S still, one thing bothers
              > me. The collection temp seems very high (ie: the
              > spirit going into the collection vessel feels about
              > 50c). Is this normal ?
              >
              >
              > Long story-
              > My still started of as a basic Moonshine.com
              > internal reflux S/steel 1m column, I wasn't happy
              > with it[85%], so I removed thru pipes and installed
              > a coil below lyne arm. After that I could totally
              > control reflux and collect at 95% plus, alas I still
              > wasn't happy, so decided to make a N/S out of
              > copper. Being a pensioner I scrounged around and
              > found enough sec/hand bits to make a N/S head, but I
              > still havn't found a length of 2" cu (1.5 to 2m).
              > Being impatient I blocked of the lyne arm in my
              > reflux and wacked the N/S head on. Whow what a
              > difference ! So much control, o why o why didn't I
              > make a N/S in the first place.
              > I toyed with the idea of adding 1/2 a meter of
              > S/Steel to the column and a gate valve on the lyne
              > arm and having two/three stills in one (N/S /-reflux
              > /-no srubbers or reflux=pot still). But I think I
              > will wait till I score some 2" Cu and put the N/S
              > head on that, and put the reflux on another boiler
              > and use it for grain/molasses type mashes.
              >
              > Morel of story if your after 96% make a N/S or
              > In/line straight up out of copper and 1.5m plus.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Eat Drink Smoke & be Good
              > SHANE
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Eat Drink Smoke & be Good
              > SHANE


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            • Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)
              ... It stands for Nixon-Stone - a name I use to use to describe the design in the book by John Stone & Mike Nixon, in Making Gin & Vodka / The Distillation
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 4, 2003
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                > What does N/S stand for? would someone post a link so
                > I can see one please.

                It stands for "Nixon-Stone" - a name I use to use to describe the design in the book by John Stone & Mike Nixon, in "Making Gin & Vodka / The Distillation of Alcohol - A Professional Guide to Amateur Distillers".

                A better name for the design is the "Offset Head" ,as seen at http://homedistiller.org/photos-ns.htm

                Its the same design as in Ian Smileys "Making Pure Corn Whisky"

                Tony
              • BOKAKOB
                Nixon/Stone or North/South chic matthews wrote:What does N/S stand for? would someone post a link so I can see one please. ...
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 5, 2003
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                  Nixon/Stone or North/South

                   

                   chic matthews <notchic@...> wrote:

                  What does N/S stand for? would someone post a link so
                  I can see one please.
                  --- Shane Kirkman <shanekirkman@...> wrote:
                  > Short story-
                  >     After converting from a modifiyed Moonshine.com
                  > internal reflux to a N/S still, one thing bothers
                  > me. The collection temp seems very high (ie: the
                  > spirit going into the collection vessel feels about
                  > 50c). Is this normal ?
                  >
                  >
                  > Long story-
                  >     My still started of as a basic Moonshine.com
                  > internal reflux S/steel 1m column, I wasn't happy
                  > with it[85%], so I removed thru pipes and installed
                  > a coil below lyne arm. After that I could totally
                  > control reflux and collect at 95% plus, alas I still
                  > wasn't happy, so decided to make a N/S out of
                  > copper. Being a pensioner I scrounged around and
                  > found enough sec/hand bits to make a N/S head, but I
                  > still havn't found a length of 2" cu (1.5 to 2m).
                  > Being impatient I blocked of the lyne arm in my
                  > reflux and wacked the N/S head on. Whow what a
                  > difference ! So much control, o why o why didn't I
                  > make a N/S in the first place.
                  >     I toyed with the idea of adding 1/2 a meter of
                  > S/Steel to the column and a gate valve on the lyne
                  > arm and having two/three stills in one (N/S /-reflux
                  > /-no srubbers or reflux=pot still). But I think I
                  > will wait till I score some 2" Cu and put the N/S
                  > head on that, and put the reflux on another boiler
                  > and use it for grain/molasses type mashes.
                  >
                  >     Morel of story if your after 96% make a N/S or
                  > In/line straight up out of copper and 1.5m plus.
                  >     
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Eat Drink Smoke & be Good
                  > SHANE
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Eat Drink Smoke & be Good
                  > SHANE


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                  I can be wrong I must say.
                  Cheers, Alex...



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