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Re: Vacuum Drying

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  • CornFed (Randy)
    as far as I know it was just a concept that was kicked around for a while. I believe they ran into a roadblock determining just how to go about the vacuum
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 1, 2002
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      as far as I know it was just a concept that was kicked around for a
      while. I believe they ran into a roadblock determining just how to
      go about the vacuum distillation phase.

      then the conversation dropped from the list and I havent heard about
      it since til now. On a totally differnt list.


      --- In new_distillers@y..., "homedistiller" <homedistiller@y...>
      wrote:
      > Hi Randy,
      >
      > This buffer-idea sounds terrific!
      >
      > Did some people try this setup already ?
      >
      > I use a "similar" principle for compressed air: two ex-propane tanks
      > of 1600 liters each. When these are filled, I not only go a long
      way,
      > but I can also run tools that a small compressor wouldn't handle.
      >
      > Could this vacuum buffer solve it all ?
      >
      > Would a bigger buffertank eliminate the need for a vacuumpump
      during
      > distillation ?
      >
      > In a sense it should, we don't want to remove anything out of a
      > closed system, we just want to separate.
      >
      > Then indeed:
      > 1) Make a closed-circuit batch-distillation set-up that can be
      sealed-
      > off hermetically.
      > 2) Apply the desired vacuum to the system.
      > 3) Seal-off the system.
      > 4) Apply heat input
      > 5) The wash boils at a low temperature (depending the vacuum value)
      > 6) Everything should be done as with "normal" distilling but now at
      > lower or much lower temperatures, again depending the existing
      vacuum.
      >
      > The buffer/cooler/recipient-tank could be placed in a cool (cold or
      > very cold) area. A precooler for the distillate could be used.
      >
      > Is that really all ? Is it too good to be true ?
      >
      > Am I making a fatal mistake somewhere in the thinking ?
      >
      > Not too sure about vapour pressure and how this will try to ruin
      our
      > desired vacuum.
      >
      > Just thinking out loud.
      >
      > Sincerely,
      > Dirk
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In new_distillers@y..., "CornFed (Randy)" <cornfed15@h...>
      wrote:
      > > there was a discussion along these lines in the bio fuel list
      about
      > 3
      > > or 4 months ago. MotieD was trying to find a way to start the
      > > distillation process using vacuum and a lower boiling
      temperature.
      > > He was trying to reduce the energy consumption in the
      distillation
      > > phase.
      > >
      > > One of the suggestions was to use a large propane tank as a
      > > vacuum 'engine' or storeage device. Much like a capacitor in
      > > electronics work. They discussed that because a 2 thousand
      gallon
      > > propane tank at 30 inches of vacuum would have such a large volume
      > it
      > > could be used to store the vacuum and then draw the ethanol vapor
      > > into it during a low temperature distillation.
      > >
      > > after the distillation phase, the tank can be emptied.
      > >
    • George Wessel
      ... (snip) This is along the same lines as I am thinking Thanks ... (snip) Does a popane tank make as big a bang when it implodes as it does when it explodes?
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 1, 2002
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        >
        >
        > there was a discussion along these lines in the bio fuel list about 3
        > or 4 months ago. MotieD was trying to find a way to start the
        > distillation process using vacuum and a lower boiling temperature.
        > He was trying to reduce the energy consumption in the distillation
        > phase.
        >
        > One of the suggestions was to use a large propane tank as a
        > vacuum 'engine' or storeage device. Much like a capacitor in
        > electronics work. They discussed that because a 2 thousand gallon
        > propane tank at 30 inches of vacuum would have such a large volume it
        > could be used to store the vacuum and then draw the ethanol vapor
        > into it during a low temperature distillation.
        >
        > after the distillation phase, the tank can be emptied.


        (snip)
        This is along the same lines as I am thinking

        Thanks



        >
        > ========================
        > Thanks Randy. I've just been doing some figgerin ... a 2000 US gallon
        > propane tank exhausted to 30 inches vacuum would be subjected to a pressure
        > of 235.3 tons! I just love trivia like that :-))
        >

        (snip)
        Does a popane tank make as big a bang when it implodes as it does when
        it explodes? Just wondering how far back I should dig my hole to hid
        in. Or how far out into the pasture I need to drag this thing before I
        apply the vacuum.

        Looks like I'll just have to front the $50.00 bucks and hook up a vacuum
        pump and wait and see.
      • George Wessel
        ... This and my freshly grown malted barley is all. I explained farther in another email. Thanks
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 1, 2002
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          homedistiller@... wrote:

          > Hello George,
          >
          > I'm still somewhat puzzled about what you want to dry actually.
          >
          > In the beginning, I (and others) thought you wanted to dry the spent
          > grains.
          >

          This and my freshly grown malted barley is all. I explained farther in
          another email.

          Thanks
        • motie_d
          Hi All! Glad to see this topic again. Randy informed me off-list about it. I ve been gone for several months, and only able to check my Emails irregularly. My
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 2, 2002
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            Hi All!
            Glad to see this topic again. Randy informed me off-list about it.
            I've been gone for several months, and only able to check my Emails
            irregularly.
            My original premise was not simply to do a vacuum distilation, but
            to do a vacuum fermentation concurrently. I wanted to distill off at
            least some of the Ethanol at a temp where the Yeasts could survive
            and keep working to keep the mash below 10%.
            Sort of a crude continous-process. Keep adding sugar and drawing off
            Ethanol with a vacuum.
            It will be another month or so before I have much time to actively
            participate.

            Keep thinking!
            Motie

            --- In new_distillers@y..., "CornFed (Randy)" <cornfed15@h...> wrote:
            > as far as I know it was just a concept that was kicked around for a
            > while. I believe they ran into a roadblock determining just how to
            > go about the vacuum distillation phase.
            >
            > then the conversation dropped from the list and I havent heard
            about
            > it since til now. On a totally differnt list.
            >
            >
            > --- In new_distillers@y..., "homedistiller" <homedistiller@y...>
            > wrote:
            > > Hi Randy,
            > >
            > > This buffer-idea sounds terrific!
            > >
            > > Did some people try this setup already ?
            > >
            > > I use a "similar" principle for compressed air: two ex-propane
            tanks
            > > of 1600 liters each. When these are filled, I not only go a long
            > way,
            > > but I can also run tools that a small compressor wouldn't handle.
            > >
            > > Could this vacuum buffer solve it all ?
            > >
            > > Would a bigger buffertank eliminate the need for a vacuumpump
            > during
            > > distillation ?
            > >
            > > In a sense it should, we don't want to remove anything out of a
            > > closed system, we just want to separate.
            > >
            > > Then indeed:
            > > 1) Make a closed-circuit batch-distillation set-up that can be
            > sealed-
            > > off hermetically.
            > > 2) Apply the desired vacuum to the system.
            > > 3) Seal-off the system.
            > > 4) Apply heat input
            > > 5) The wash boils at a low temperature (depending the vacuum
            value)
            > > 6) Everything should be done as with "normal" distilling but now
            at
            > > lower or much lower temperatures, again depending the existing
            > vacuum.
            > >
            > > The buffer/cooler/recipient-tank could be placed in a cool (cold
            or
            > > very cold) area. A precooler for the distillate could be used.
            > >
            > > Is that really all ? Is it too good to be true ?
            > >
            > > Am I making a fatal mistake somewhere in the thinking ?
            > >
            > > Not too sure about vapour pressure and how this will try to ruin
            > our
            > > desired vacuum.
            > >
            > > Just thinking out loud.
            > >
            > > Sincerely,
            > > Dirk
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In new_distillers@y..., "CornFed (Randy)" <cornfed15@h...>
            > wrote:
            > > > there was a discussion along these lines in the bio fuel list
            > about
            > > 3
            > > > or 4 months ago. MotieD was trying to find a way to start the
            > > > distillation process using vacuum and a lower boiling
            > temperature.
            > > > He was trying to reduce the energy consumption in the
            > distillation
            > > > phase.
            > > >
            > > > One of the suggestions was to use a large propane tank as a
            > > > vacuum 'engine' or storeage device. Much like a capacitor in
            > > > electronics work. They discussed that because a 2 thousand
            > gallon
            > > > propane tank at 30 inches of vacuum would have such a large
            volume
            > > it
            > > > could be used to store the vacuum and then draw the ethanol
            vapor
            > > > into it during a low temperature distillation.
            > > >
            > > > after the distillation phase, the tank can be emptied.
            > > >
          • George Wessel
            raises another: why do you want to dry the grain when it is the sugars you want from the malted grain to ferment in order to make your fuel alcohol? Am I
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 2, 2002
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              raises another: why do you want to dry the grain when it is the
              sugars you want from the malted grain to ferment in order to make
              your fuel alcohol? Am I missing something?

              (snip)
              I want to dry the spent grains after I ferment it. First of all to get
              all the recoverable alcohol out of the grain and second so it will store
              until it can be fed. Last of all because you can only feed a cow so
              much water per day in her daily diet. I will have to look it up, I'm not
              sure anymore how much it was but it can be easily surpassed when feeding
              spent grains. One place I saw piped their CO2 from their fermenter into
              a box that held their spend grains and they fed out of the box. No
              oxygen or less oxygen, no spoilage.

              Not sure that your two cows would appreciate the smell of it
              though after its been through that propane tank.


              (snip)
              I would have to be inclined to say that after I heat these tanks a few
              times the popane smell would come out of the steel. Let me the first to
              say I could be wrong. But I have smelled old popane tanks that have lost
              this bad smell after setting awhile.
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