Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [new_distillers] temps and foreshots??

Expand Messages
  • Gramps
    G day John and all the gang,I just have to jump in here,I have been reading up to 85 messages every couple of days and most are about heating control. If as
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 1, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      G'day John and all the gang,I just have to jump in here,I have been reading up to 85 messages every couple of days and most are about heating control.
      If as much energy was put into building controllers every member would have one.
      Control of heat must be done in such a way as to not force the undesirables up the tower and to also produce enough vapor to maintain the reflux ratio at a level to achieve the separation required.
      Not enough heat and the % drops,enough heat and the % is steady providing the reflux ratio is maintained.
      Take too much out and the % drops because the reflux ratio is not being maintained,put in too much heat and you force the crap up the tower and quality suffers.
      When you can make a product that is better than the commercial equivalent for a few bucks why not be prepared to spend some bucks on good control,it soon repays the outlay,Regards,Gramp's.  
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 11:20 AM
      Subject: Re: [new_distillers] temps and foreshots??


      harleydavidsonn2002 wrote:
      Subject: [new_distillers] temps and foreshots??

        Hello to all. I suppose this question would likely be directed to
      Mike as it is his book that I am using for this, but any input from
      the group is appriciated.
      ===========================
      Hi Harvey,
      I've noted temps in deg C as I've almost forgotten what deg F mean in real life :-)
      ===========================
        Okay here it is, I am running what I think would fall into the
      compound still department. It is an valved reflux design. On the
      operation of the compound still,the book ( and this is from memorey
      not a qoute)That you can switch to the 750 watt element after you
      have got the still up to temprature with the bigger element etc..
      After about two hours  ( so the colum can equalize ) you can start
      taking off the foreshots as low as 140 degrees F (60C). and as you do that
      your temp will slowly rise until it stabalizes. should be around 174
      degrees F.(78.9C) etc..  Okay if a person is using a variac rather than the
      750 watt element, should the temp be turned down to where the colum
      is at 140 F 60C), and when I take fore shots off, should it be left at
      that 140F 60C) temp?
        The reason I ask is I tried to leave it at 140F (60C) for the two hours,
      and useing a sugar wash I collocted a great deal of foreshots. Like
      around 250ml. And the temp only went up to around 160F 71.1C). I understand
      that there is only a small qunity of foreshots, So some thing is not
      working here.
        After a while I went ahead and turned the temp up to 173F 78.3) and
      collected my prize.I just want to know if I should go ahead and turn
      the temp down and collect the small amount of foreshots and then then
      turn up the temp and collect the heads?
      ===========================
      First of all, 2 hours is the 'ideal' if you want to get ultra pure product, but you can get away with equilibrating the column in just 30 minutes with a low heat setting like 750W. Don't change this power setting at all during the whole of the collection run.  The only times you want higher power is during the heat up period and during the collection of tails, when you can collect as fast as you like.  With other rigs, a different steady power setting can be chosen, but once you know what works best for your rig, don't vary from it!
       
      The foreshots will indeed be at a temp of around 60C, but this temp will quickly rise to around 78C as you remove them as the quantity is typically small.  At 78C you will be collecting the heads, which with a sugar wash will be mostly ethyl acetate.  The amount you have to remove will depend on the type of yeast you used, and how fast the ferment was.  Generally, the faster the ferment, the more heads.  I've noticed with the new 24 hour turbos that there is considerably more ethyl acetate than I got with slower ferments.  Patience is a good virtue at this stage, as the thermometer will be of little help to you.  The temperature does rise as the ethyl acetate is exhausted, but very little.  Best guideline is smell and taste.  A good procedure to follow is to take off just a little of the heads at a time, around 10-20mlm and then give the column a rest for 5 minutes.  The BP of the heads is very, very close to that of the main run of ethanol, so bleeding off very slowly and giving it frequent rests enables the close fractions a better chance of separating out.  The last stages of the heads (as well as the tails) are not wasted, as they will contain a lot of ethanol that can be recovered in a later run if you add them to that batch.
       
      A variac gives a linear variation of voltage output as you turn the control knob, but you should bear in mind that the power output of the heating element varies with the square of the voltage.  Turning the knob halfway will NOT half the power!  This can make life a bit tricky!!  Turning the control knob to the halfway mark halves the voltage, but delivers only a quarter of the full rated power of the heater.  As a guideline, if you want a graduation dial against the control knob, these are the values of power you will get on a linear scale of 0 - 10, where P is the rated power of your element (I've added an example using a 1500W element):
      0   Zero     =  0 W
      1   0.01P   = 15 W
      2   0.04P   = 60 W
      3   0.09P   = 135 W
      4   0.16P   = 240 W
      5   0.25P   = 375 W
      6   0.36P   = 540 W
      7   0.49P   = 735 W
      8   0.64P   = 969 W
      9   0.81P   = 1215 W
      10  P        = 1500 W
      So, if you have a 1500W element and want around 750W, then turn the knob to 7
      This non-linear scale is the only drawback I can think of with the variac.
       
      Hokay?
       
      Mike Nixon
       
       
       



      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      new_distillers-unsubscribe@onelist.com



      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
    • harley
      Mike thanks for the reply, it is funny how the math and reality sometimes acutually come close to one another!!! I have run a few test runs after posting this
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 2, 2002
      • 0 Attachment

          Mike thanks for the reply, it is funny how the math and reality sometimes acutually come close to one another!!!

          I have run a few test runs after posting this post and a funny thing has come about, I have tinkered with this variac and have in fact found that if I set it just shy of 7 on the dial, this thing just idles along and according to my alcholmeter is making a product that is 95%. I cannot complain about this at all.

          Thanks again, all that stuff in those text books, that I myself hate to read, can infact save a guy alot of time. Glad there are people, like you and many other members in this group, who like to read them so I can pick at their brains!

         Regards Harley

         Mike Nixon wrote:


        harleydavidsonn2002 wrote:
        Subject: [new_distillers] temps and foreshots??

          Hello to all. I suppose this question would likely be directed to
        Mike as it is his book that I am using for this, but any input from
        the group is appriciated.
        ===========================
        Hi Harvey,
        I've noted temps in deg C as I've almost forgotten what deg F mean in real life :-)
        ===========================
          Okay here it is, I am running what I think would fall into the
        compound still department. It is an valved reflux design. On the
        operation of the compound still,the book ( and this is from memorey
        not a qoute)That you can switch to the 750 watt element after you
        have got the still up to temprature with the bigger element etc..
        After about two hours  ( so the colum can equalize ) you can start
        taking off the foreshots as low as 140 degrees F (60C). and as you do that
        your temp will slowly rise until it stabalizes. should be around 174
        degrees F.(78.9C) etc..  Okay if a person is using a variac rather than the
        750 watt element, should the temp be turned down to where the colum
        is at 140 F 60C), and when I take fore shots off, should it be left at
        that 140F 60C) temp?
          The reason I ask is I tried to leave it at 140F (60C) for the two hours,
        and useing a sugar wash I collocted a great deal of foreshots. Like
        around 250ml. And the temp only went up to around 160F 71.1C). I understand
        that there is only a small qunity of foreshots, So some thing is not
        working here.
          After a while I went ahead and turned the temp up to 173F 78.3) and
        collected my prize.I just want to know if I should go ahead and turn
        the temp down and collect the small amount of foreshots and then then
        turn up the temp and collect the heads?
        ===========================
        First of all, 2 hours is the 'ideal' if you want to get ultra pure product, but you can get away with equilibrating the column in just 30 minutes with a low heat setting like 750W. Don't change this power setting at all during the whole of the collection run.  The only times you want higher power is during the heat up period and during the collection of tails, when you can collect as fast as you like.  With other rigs, a different steady power setting can be chosen, but once you know what works best for your rig, don't vary from it!
         
        The foreshots will indeed be at a temp of around 60C, but this temp will quickly rise to around 78C as you remove them as the quantity is typically small.  At 78C you will be collecting the heads, which with a sugar wash will be mostly ethyl acetate.  The amount you have to remove will depend on the type of yeast you used, and how fast the ferment was.  Generally, the faster the ferment, the more heads.  I've noticed with the new 24 hour turbos that there is considerably more ethyl acetate than I got with slower ferments.  Patience is a good virtue at this stage, as the thermometer will be of little help to you.  The temperature does rise as the ethyl acetate is exhausted, but very little.  Best guideline is smell and taste.  A good procedure to follow is to take off just a little of the heads at a time, around 10-20mlm and then give the column a rest for 5 minutes.  The BP of the heads is very, very close to that of the main run of ethanol, so bleeding off very slowly and giving it frequent rests enables the close fractions a better chance of separating out.  The last stages of the heads (as well as the tails) are not wasted, as they will contain a lot of ethanol that can be recovered in a later run if you add them to that batch.
         
        A variac gives a linear variation of voltage output as you turn the control knob, but you should bear in mind that the power output of the heating element varies with the square of the voltage.  Turning the knob halfway will NOT half the power!  This can make life a bit tricky!!  Turning the control knob to the halfway mark halves the voltage, but delivers only a quarter of the full rated power of the heater.  As a guideline, if you want a graduation dial against the control knob, these are the values of power you will get on a linear scale of 0 - 10, where P is the rated power of your element (I've added an example using a 1500W element):
        0   Zero     =  0 W
        1   0.01P   = 15 W
        2   0.04P   = 60 W
        3   0.09P   = 135 W
        4   0.16P   = 240 W
        5   0.25P   = 375 W
        6   0.36P   = 540 W
        7   0.49P   = 735 W
        8   0.64P   = 969 W
        9   0.81P   = 1215 W
        10  P        = 1500 W
        So, if you have a 1500W element and want around 750W, then turn the knob to 7
        This non-linear scale is the only drawback I can think of with the variac.
         
        Hokay?
         
        Mike Nixon
         
         
         



        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        new_distillers-unsubscribe@onelist.com



        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



            



        Do you Yahoo!?
        New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!

      • John Vandermeulen
        Okay Gramps, what sort of temp. control do you use? On what heat source? John V
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 2, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          Okay Gramps,
          what sort of temp. control do you use? On what heat source?
          John V

          Gramps wrote:

          > G'day John and all the gang,I just have to jump in here,I have been
          > reading up to 85 messages every couple of days and most are about heating
          > control.If as much energy was put into building controllers every member
          > would have one.Control of heat must be done in such a way as to not force
          > the undesirables up the tower and to also produce enough vapor to
          > maintain the reflux ratio at a level to achieve the separation
          > required.Not enough heat and the % drops,enough heat and the % is steady
          > providing the reflux ratio is maintained.Take too much out and the %
          > drops because the reflux ratio is not being maintained,put in too much
          > heat and you force the crap up the tower and quality suffers.When you can
          > make a product that is better than the commercial equivalent for a few
          > bucks why not be prepared to spend some bucks on good control,it soon
          > repays the outlay,Regards,Gramp's.
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Mike Nixon
          > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 11:20 AM
          > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] temps and foreshots??
          >
          >
          > harleydavidsonn2002 wrote:
          > Subject: [new_distillers] temps and foreshots??
          >
          > Hello to all. I suppose this question would likely be
          > directed to
          > Mike as it is his book that I am using for this, but any input
          > from
          > the group is appriciated.===========================Hi
          > Harvey,I've noted temps in deg C as I've almost forgotten what
          > deg F mean in real life :-)===========================
          > Okay here it is, I am running what I think would fall into
          > the
          > compound still department. It is an valved reflux design. On
          > the
          > operation of the compound still,the book ( and this is from
          > memorey
          > not a qoute)That you can switch to the 750 watt element after
          > you
          > have got the still up to temprature with the bigger element
          > etc..
          > After about two hours ( so the colum can equalize ) you can
          > start
          > taking off the foreshots as low as 140 degrees F (60C). and as
          > you do that
          > your temp will slowly rise until it stabalizes. should be
          > around 174
          > degrees F.(78.9C) etc.. Okay if a person is using a variac
          > rather than the
          > 750 watt element, should the temp be turned down to where the
          > colum
          > is at 140 F 60C), and when I take fore shots off, should it be
          > left at
          > that 140F 60C) temp?
          > The reason I ask is I tried to leave it at 140F (60C) for the
          > two hours,
          > and useing a sugar wash I collocted a great deal of foreshots.
          > Like
          > around 250ml. And the temp only went up to around 160F 71.1C).
          > I understand
          > that there is only a small qunity of foreshots, So some thing
          > is not
          > working here.
          > After a while I went ahead and turned the temp up to 173F
          > 78.3) and
          > collected my prize.I just want to know if I should go ahead and
          > turn
          > the temp down and collect the small amount of foreshots and
          > then then
          > turn up the temp and collect the heads?
          > ===========================First of all, 2 hours is the 'ideal'
          > if you want to get ultra pure product, but you can get away
          > with equilibrating the column in just 30 minutes with a low
          > heat setting like 750W. Don't change this power setting at all
          > during the whole of the collection run. The only times you
          > want higher power is during the heat up period and during the
          > collection of tails, when you can collect as fast as you like.
          > With other rigs, a different steady power setting can be
          > chosen, but once you know what works best for your rig, don't
          > vary from it! The foreshots will indeed be at a temp of around
          > 60C, but this temp will quickly rise to around 78C as you
          > remove them as the quantity is typically small. At 78C you
          > will be collecting the heads, which with a sugar wash will be
          > mostly ethyl acetate. The amount you have to remove will
          > depend on the type of yeast you used, and how fast the ferment
          > was. Generally, the faster the ferment, the more heads. I've
          > noticed with the new 24 hour turbos that there is considerably
          > more ethyl acetate than I got with slower ferments. Patience
          > is a good virtue at this stage, as the thermometer will be of
          > little help to you. The temperature does rise as the ethyl
          > acetate is exhausted, but very little. Best guideline is smell
          > and taste. A good procedure to follow is to take off just a
          > little of the heads at a time, around 10-20mlm and then give
          > the column a rest for 5 minutes. The BP of the heads is very,
          > very close to that of the main run of ethanol, so bleeding off
          > very slowly and giving it frequent rests enables the close
          > fractions a better chance of separating out. The last stages
          > of the heads (as well as the tails) are not wasted, as they
          > will contain a lot of ethanol that can be recovered in a later
          > run if you add them to that batch. A variac gives a linear
          > variation of voltage output as you turn the control knob, but
          > you should bear in mind that the power output of the heating
          > element varies with the square of the voltage. Turning the
          > knob halfway will NOT half the power! This can make life a bit
          > tricky!! Turning the control knob to the halfway mark halves
          > the voltage, but delivers only a quarter of the full rated
          > power of the heater. As a guideline, if you want a graduation
          > dial against the control knob, these are the values of power
          > you will get on a linear scale of 0 - 10, where P is the rated
          > power of your element (I've added an example using a 1500W
          > element):0 Zero = 0 W1 0.01P = 15 W2 0.04P = 60
          > W3 0.09P = 135 W4 0.16P = 240 W5 0.25P = 375 W6
          > 0.36P = 540 W7 0.49P = 735 W8 0.64P = 969 W9
          > 0.81P = 1215 W10 P = 1500 WSo, if you have a 1500W
          > element and want around 750W, then turn the knob to 7This
          > non-linear scale is the only drawback I can think of with the
          > variac. Hokay? Mike Nixon
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > new_distillers-unsubscribe@onelist.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          > Service.
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > new_distillers-unsubscribe@onelist.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        • Zeke Jones
          Harley...Math and reality are actually exact...everything in the Universe is tied to strict mathematical rules...the problem lies with the Human Error being
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 3, 2002
          • 0 Attachment

            Harley...Math and reality are actually exact...everything in the Universe is tied to strict mathematical rules...the problem lies with the 'Human Error' being inserted into the 'scheme of things'...:>)

            >From: harley
            >Reply-To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
            >To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: Re: [new_distillers] temps and foreshots??
            >Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 10:01:52 -0700 (PDT)
            >
            >
            > Mike thanks for the reply, it is funny how the math and reality sometimes acutually come close to one another!!!
            > I have run a few test runs after posting this post and a funny thing has come about, I have tinkered with this variac and have in fact found that if I set it just shy of 7 on the dial, this thing just idles along and according to my alcholmeter is making a product that is 95%. I cannot complain about this at all.
            > Thanks again, all that stuff in those text books, that I myself hate to read, can infact save a guy alot of time. Glad there are people, like you and many other members in this group, who like to read them so I can pick at their brains!
            > Regards Harley
            > Mike Nixon wrote:
            >harleydavidsonn2002 wrote:
            >Subject: [new_distillers] temps and foreshots??
            >
            > Hello to all. I suppose this question would likely be directed to
            >Mike as it is his book that I am using for this, but any input from
            >the group is appriciated.===========================Hi Harvey,I've noted temps in deg C as I've almost forgotten what deg F mean in real life :-)===========================
            > Okay here it is, I am running what I think would fall into the
            >compound still department. It is an valved reflux design. On the
            >operation of the compound still,the book ( and this is from memorey
            >not a qoute)That you can switch to the 750 watt element after you
            >have got the still up to temprature with the bigger element etc..
            >After about two hours ( so the colum can equalize ) you can start
            >taking off the foreshots as low as 140 degrees F (60C). and as you do that
            >your temp will slowly rise until it stabalizes. should be around 174
            >degrees F.(78.9C) etc.. Okay if a person is using a variac rather than the
            >750 watt element, should the temp be turned down to where the colum
            >is at 140 F 60C), and when I take fore shots off, should it be left at
            >that 140F 60C) temp?
            > The reason I ask is I tried to leave it at 140F (60C) for the two hours,
            >and useing a sugar wash I collocted a great deal of foreshots. Like
            >around 250ml. And the temp only went up to around 160F 71.1C). I understand
            >that there is only a small qunity of foreshots, So some thing is not
            >working here.
            > After a while I went ahead and turned the temp up to 173F 78.3) and
            >collected my prize.I just want to know if I should go ahead and turn
            >the temp down and collect the small amount of foreshots and then then
            >turn up the temp and collect the heads?
            >===========================First of all, 2 hours is the 'ideal' if you want to get ultra pure product, but you can get away with equilibrating the column in just 30 minutes with a low heat setting like 750W. Don't change this power setting at all during the whole of the collection run. The only times you want higher power is during the heat up period and during the collection of tails, when you can collect as fast as you like. With other rigs, a different steady power setting can be chosen, but once you know what works best for your rig, don't vary from it! The foreshots will indeed be at a temp of around 60C, but this temp will quickly rise to around 78C as you remove them as the quantity is typically small. At 78C you will be collecting the heads, which with a sugar wash will be mostly ethyl acetate. The amount you have to remove will depend on the type of yeast you used, and how fast the ferment was. Generally, the faster the ferment, the more heads. I've noticed with the new 24 hour turbos that there is considerably more ethyl acetate than I got with slower ferments. Patience is a good virtue at this stage, as the thermometer will be of little help to you. The temperature does rise as the ethyl acetate is exhausted, but very little. Best guideline is smell and taste. A good procedure to follow is to take off just a little of the heads at a time, around 10-20mlm and then give the column a rest for 5 minutes. The BP of the heads is very, very close to that of the main run of ethanol, so bleeding off very slowly and giving it frequent rests enables the close fractions a better chance of separating out. The last stages of the heads (as well as the tails) are not wasted, as they will contain a lot of ethanol that can be recovered in a later run if you add them to that batch. A variac gives a linear variation of voltage output as you turn the control knob, but you should bear in mind that the power output of the heating element varies with the square of the voltage. Turning the knob halfway will NOT half the power! This can make life a bit tricky!! Turning the control knob to the halfway mark halves the voltage, but delivers only a quarter of the full rated power of the heater. As a guideline, if you want a graduation dial against the control knob, these are the values of power you will get on a linear scale of 0 - 10, where P is the rated power of your element (I've added an example using a 1500W element):0 Zero = 0 W1 0.01P = 15 W2 0.04P = 60 W3 0.09P = 135 W4 0.16P = 240 W5 0.25P = 375 W6 0.36P = 540 W7 0.49P = 735 W8 0.64P = 969 W9 0.81P = 1215 W10 P = 1500 WSo, if you have a 1500W element and want around 750W, then turn the knob to 7This non-linear scale is the only drawback I can think of with the variac. Hokay? Mike Nixon
            >
            >
            >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            >new_distillers-unsubscribe@onelist.com
            >
            >
            >
            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >---------------------------------
            >Do you Yahoo!?
            >New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!


            Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: Click Here
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.