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RE: [new_distillers] Sweetness!

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  • Tony & Elle Ackland
    Yeah, I was waiting for anyone else to answer .... I haven t tried adding sugar just prior to distilling, because it seems like a waste. If you want more
    Message 1 of 1 , Apr 13, 2000
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      Yeah, I was waiting for anyone else to answer .... I haven't tried adding
      sugar just prior to distilling, because it seems like a waste. If you want
      more alcohol, you need to add the sugar back with all the starting
      ingredients, so it can be fermented by the yeast. Now some of the purists
      (Brian) would still frown on this, as you are basically diluting the
      flavour that you are getting from your grains/corn. This is why commercial
      distilleries don't add extra sugar, or go for the Turbo (21% a/v) yeasts,
      but still stick with distilling from a 6-8% mash. I also know that when
      I've distilled a wash with unfermented sugar in it (just couldn't wait any
      longer, too excited !), it boiled up more and caused a couple of problems.
      So, I wouldn't recommend it. But as to whether it would actually sweeten
      the alcohol, I don't know. I've pasted a couple of replies from David Reid
      on the "Distillers" newsgroup which was answering a similar question - and
      tends to suggest there might be something in it. The real question is how
      the sugar gets carried over to the distillate - as a vapour ? Hard to
      picture. Usually, if you want to sweeten the spirit a little, you do this
      after, using say a touch of glucose or honey as a smoothing agent, or even
      a little sugar syrup. Its easier, and cheaper (teaspoon vs kilograms).

      Tony .

      read on.... the following posts ...


      > ----------
      > From: DAVID REID[SMTP:NZAG@...]
      > Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 6:43:01 PM
      > To: pimcint@...
      > Cc: Distillers@onelist.com; DAVID REID
      > Subject: [Distillers] Home alcohol sweetness
      > Auto forwarded by a Rule
      >
      Peter,
      Was giving your problem with the sweetness of home alcohol a
      bit more thought and another angle is worth a bit more thought and
      investigation. While there is is not much published in regard to
      problems like this (at laeast if so I havnt seen or heard of it) with
      regards to spirits alcohol there is a lot of published data with regard
      to beer fermentation and the resultant products produced which is almost
      identical. It comes under what is called attenuation and is the main
      reason certain specific yeasts are used to produce specific beers.
      Attenuation refers to the % of sugar converted to alcohol and is
      normally between 67 - 77% (Higher with actual sugar). This is determined
      by the composition of the wort (in your case actual sugars used) and the
      yeast strain used. In simple terms each yeast strain ferments different
      sugars to varying degrees resulting in higher or lower final gravities
      which affect the residual sweetnesss and body.
      What is the actual yeast strain you are using, what is the finished s.g.
      of the wort prior to distillation, and what is the distilled %?
      By playing around a bit with both the sugar/s composition and the
      yeast/s used it should be relatively to change this character aspect. By
      being precise and keeping good records you should after a while get to
      the stage where the results are repeatable and the taste more along the
      lines you like and desire.
      Also see latest e-mail to Rob titled Purity and smell as I am sure this
      has some bearing here as well. Peter I hope this helps a little more.
      Let us know how you get on.
      B.r., David


      > ----------
      > From: DAVID REID[SMTP:NZAG@...]
      > Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2000 9:48:43 AM
      > To: Pimcint@...
      > Cc: Distillers@onelist.com; DAVID REID
      > Subject: [Distillers] Re Sweet Alcohol
      > Auto forwarded by a Rule
      >
      Peter, Rob, et al,
      To change the alcohol profile and to get away
      from the sweetness I think Rob mentioned (e-mail now deleted so cant
      refer back to it) and that I find rather cloying you are best to change
      the composition of the raw material you are using for your wort. Using
      a % of dextose in the mix to replace a certain % of sugar will give you
      a fuller and rounder profile. A brochure I have here from Chelsea
      Refinery (NZ Sugar Co. Ltd.) quotes the following Relative Sweetness of
      the following:
      Sucrose 100
      Glucose 70
      Fructose 140
      Invert Sugar 110
      Lactose 40
      Maltose 50
      No figures quoted for dextrose but dextrose is the right handed
      variation of glucose so the figure will be virtually the same.
      Glucose, Dextrose, and Fructose are monosaccharides whereas Maltose and
      Sucrose are dissacharides (made up of 2 molecules) Fructose is by far
      the sweetest tasting (Have a look at lolly packets and if the figures
      are shown you will see candy manufacturers predominantly use fructose as
      the predominant sugar as it gives them the most bang for their buck).
      Sucrose as a disaccharide is composed of one molecule of glucose and
      one of fructose (more precisely: dextrose plus dextrorotary fructose).
      Hence by switching some dextrose for sucrose the final product will
      taste less sweet. A lot of brewers I know use from 20 to 25% dextrose
      and some even more. The % used is kept dowm somewhat because of the
      slightly higher price. Note that whisky is largely made from barley
      (simple sugars) and neutral grain alcohol which is mostly made from corn
      or maize (corn sugar = glucose). Bourbon likewise is is almost solely
      corn or maize. Rum in comparison is almost solely made from sugar
      (sucrose). Compare the 2 and you will quickly get the idea.
      At the end of the day it may all be alcohol but also at the end of the
      day there are slight nuances which are discernable to some peoples taste
      and more pronounced in others.
      Note also that the majority of New Zealand alcohol made under licence
      here is mostly made from lactose which has a sweetness of 40.
      B.r., David Reid



      > ----------
      > From: DAVID REID[SMTP:NZAG@...]
      > Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2000 3:32:37 PM
      > To: pimcint@...
      > Cc: Distillers@onelist.com; DAVID REID
      > Subject: [Distillers] Re Sweet Alcohol, and treatment
      > Auto forwarded by a Rule
      >
      Peter, Rob, et al,
      Further to my e-mail regarding Sweet Alcohol I
      have just reread my message and thought I better add the following
      before someone jumps on me. By comparing whisky, bourbon, and rum I hope
      I did not give the idea that there would be much difference between the
      alcohol made from sugar alone and sugar with dextrose. The difference is
      minimal rather than profound. After all alcohol is alcohol, is alcohol,
      is alcohol. It is just that it gives the finished alcohol a fuller and
      rounder profile.
      Differences are more likely to come about through time on carbon
      treatment and then how you finish or dress (ie: filter) the final
      product to remove any minute carbon particles, contaminants, and other
      impurities. I recently just finished filtering and dressing some alcohol
      (which was not brilliant initially due to not having the right packing
      in the still) which I had left on carbon treatment for 6 weeks and the
      final product came up brilliantly. Some of this I attribute to using a 1
      micron filter material that has just come out in the States and removes
      all particulates above 1 micron in size. I firstly use a 20 micron
      screen, followed by a 5 micron filter, and finally the 1 micron filter.
      The product comes up crystal clear. The only problem is that the 1
      micron filter because of its fine size does not last that long and needs
      regular replacement. By initially using the other filter sizes I remove
      the larger particles and extend the 1 micron life somewhat. As soon as I
      can work out the prices I will have the following sizes available in
      both 1 and 5 micron: 25mm (1") circles for use with the small black
      plastic filter units available through home brew shops that everyone
      seems to be using and 54mm (2 1/8") circles that can be used with a ss
      jubilee clip on the opening of a coke, or perrier bottle etc. You just
      cut the bottoms out and hey you have an instant funnel.
      B.r. David Reid



      > ----------
      > From: Stevensgang@...[SMTP:STEVENSGANG@...]
      > Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 3:41:43 PM
      > To: new_distillers@onelist.com
      > Subject: [new_distillers] Sweetness!
      > Auto forwarded by a Rule
      >
      Hey! Tony! It seems like the only time I get a reply to my questions is
      when I write you specifically. So sorry about your luck but I guess I'll
      be writing to you . Anyway I asked about adding sugar to a corn based
      mash "cousin Bill" says to add half sugar when starting your mash and
      half just before running it. Will this make "shine" sweeter or do you
      know? His was mighty good stuff! Do you think this unfermented sugar in
      the mash would cause the shine to make and hold a bead? Kind of like
      shaking up koolaid or sweet tea. It will bubble up! What do think?
      Thanks for listening.
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