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Re: [new_distillers] Wheat Bourbon

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  • John Vandermeulen
    Hello again, I forgot to mention in my last reply that wheat, for me, is very difficult to mash and get to the distilling stage. It is notorious for
    Message 1 of 24 , Aug 2, 2002
      Hello again,
      I forgot to mention in my last reply that wheat, for me, is very difficult to
      mash and get to the distilling stage. It is notorious for gelatinizing, and
      I, for one, have yet to figure out how to filter, clarify, or otherwise
      change it from a soupy cloudy liquid to something that won't burn on the
      bottom of your kettle.
      If there is anyone out there who has the answer - please!!! (I did try
      Beano, with no luck.)
      John V

      staffdevuk wrote:

      > Sorry, back again,
      >
      > Being an all grain brewer and this morning the unexpected owner of 25
      > Kg. of cut wheat, can anyone tell me if I can try to make some all
      > wheat bourbon?
      >
      > Have looked on Home Distillation site under "sour mash" and "Jack"
      > reports a method which seems to only use plain wheat.
      >
      > All the beers I have ever brewed have used an amount of pale malt to
      > supply the enzymes the yeasts need to convert the sugar.
      >
      > "Jack" says when adding the yeast add the enzyme, what enzyme would
      > this be? Would it be invertase? Or maybe he means yeast nutrient?
      >
      > Could anyone tell me?
      >
      > How would you make the mash sour the first time? it seems to be a
      > chicken or egg question. Could you do it with an acid?
      >
      > That'll probably be enough for now,
      > no sense in wearing out your welcome.
      >
      > Regards Tony.
      >
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > new_distillers-unsubscribe@onelist.com
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    • ups474@aol.com
      oops- Did I forget to mention a 10%(by weight) addition of 6-row barley to that recipe? The enzyme added with yeast is common anti-gas medicine called beano .
      Message 2 of 24 , Aug 2, 2002
        oops- Did I forget to mention a 10%(by weight) addition of 6-row barley to
        that recipe?
        The enzyme added with yeast is common anti-gas medicine called "beano". The
        mashing may be done by mixing all the grain together -milling it, then adding
        cold water (5 or 6 gallons per 10- 15 pounds of mixed grain), and adding the
        yeast/beano after everything is blended together- the 6-row enzymes will work
        at room temp- with no loss of yield, just an extra day of fermenting.
        You can sour it with lactic acid culture (incubate, then kill off with a
        quick boil- make one gallon+ of mash for this purpose, strain it when
        acidified/boiled, then use the liquid in place of one-fourth of the water in
        the mash.)
        For those of you who don't already know - I am Jack.
      • ups474@aol.com
        So close- not Bourbon not Whiskey It is, in fact- Whisky- no e in the spelling. The founder of the brand asked (and recieved permission) from some Scotch
        Message 3 of 24 , Aug 2, 2002
          So close- not Bourbon
          not Whiskey
          It is, in fact- Whisky- no "e" in the spelling. The founder of
          the brand asked (and recieved permission) from some Scotch association (in
          Scotland) to use the Scottish spelling of whisky, out of respect for his
          family line.
          This has been another useless fact.
        • staffdevuk
          ... difficult to ... gelatinizing, and ... otherwise ... on the ... try ... John, I have a 22 gall. copper which will house a 14 gall. fermenting bin perfectly
          Message 4 of 24 , Aug 2, 2002
            --- In new_distillers@y..., John Vandermeulen <vandermeulen@n...>
            wrote:
            > Hello again,
            > I forgot to mention in my last reply that wheat, for me, is very
            difficult to
            > mash and get to the distilling stage. It is notorious for
            gelatinizing, and
            > I, for one, have yet to figure out how to filter, clarify, or
            otherwise
            > change it from a soupy cloudy liquid to something that won't burn
            on the
            > bottom of your kettle.
            > If there is anyone out there who has the answer - please!!! (I did
            try
            > Beano, with no luck.)
            > John V
            >


            John,

            I have a 22 gall. copper which will house a 14 gall. fermenting bin
            perfectly so I could use it as a water jacket. I could distill the
            whole mess without having to separate it.

            Do you think this will work?

            I could easily modify the lid to make it a pot still.

            regards,

            Tony.
            > >
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > new_distillers-unsubscribe@o...
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • staffdevuk
            ... barley to ... I think you may have. Could I use the Pale Malt I already have? ... called beano . Don t seem to be able to find beano here, maybe we enjoy
            Message 5 of 24 , Aug 3, 2002
              --- In new_distillers@y..., ups474@a... wrote:
              > oops- Did I forget to mention a 10%(by weight) addition of 6-row
              barley to
              > that recipe?

              I think you may have. Could I use the Pale Malt I already have?


              > The enzyme added with yeast is common anti-gas medicine
              called "beano".

              Don't seem to be able to find beano here, maybe we enjoy a good fart,
              is there a generic name for me to try?


              The
              > mashing may be done by mixing all the grain together -milling it,
              then adding
              > cold water (5 or 6 gallons per 10- 15 pounds of mixed grain), and
              adding the
              > yeast/beano after everything is blended together- the 6-row enzymes
              will work
              > at room temp- with no loss of yield, just an extra day of
              fermenting.
              > You can sour it with lactic acid culture (incubate, then kill off
              with a
              > quick boil- make one gallon+ of mash for this purpose, strain it
              when
              > acidified/boiled, then use the liquid in place of one-fourth of the
              water in
              > the mash.)
              > For those of you who don't already know - I am Jack.

              Thanks Jack,Tony.
            • Geoff Redman
              As John V. mentioned, an all-wheat mash tends to be a glutenous mess. Some brewer s of all-wheat beer with whom I ve communicated have suggested adding oat or
              Message 6 of 24 , Aug 3, 2002
                As John V. mentioned, an all-wheat mash tends to be a glutenous mess.
                Some brewer's of all-wheat beer with whom I've communicated have
                suggested adding oat or rice hulls to the mash to help keep the wheat
                from turning into a big glob. Maybe 10% to 20% of the total mash could
                be hulls. I've never tried this, so I don't really know if it would
                help...

                geoff
              • Nicholas Hamilton
                ... You should get a thin workable mash if you mash by adding your milled wheat and about 20% of your malt (milled) to _cold_ water in the mash tun and
                Message 7 of 24 , Aug 3, 2002
                  >From: John Vandermeulen <vandermeulen@...>
                  >Reply-To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  >To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Wheat Bourbon
                  >Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 21:04:08 -0300
                  >
                  >Hello again,
                  >I forgot to mention in my last reply that wheat, for me, is very difficult
                  >to
                  >mash and get to the distilling stage. It is notorious for gelatinizing,
                  >and
                  >I, for one, have yet to figure out how to filter, clarify, or otherwise
                  >change it from a soupy cloudy liquid to something that won't burn on the
                  >bottom of your kettle.
                  >If there is anyone out there who has the answer - please!!! (I did try
                  >Beano, with no luck.)

                  You should get a thin workable mash if you mash by adding your milled wheat
                  and about 20% of your malt (milled) to _cold_ water in the mash tun and
                  _slowly_ heating it to about 150F and hold for about 15-25 min. This will
                  allow the enzymes in the malt to start converting the starches before they
                  gel. After boiling the mash for about 30 min cool to about 145-150F and
                  add the remainder of your milled malt and hold for 45-120 min to complete
                  the conversion (test a sample for residual starch with iodine).

                  For whisky cool to about 70F and pitch yeast; distill the result grain and
                  all.

                  For beer add rice hulls and use standard techniques to filer out the wort
                  (the result is typically cloudy). Cool, pitch etc. as normal.

                  >John V
                  >
                  >staffdevuk wrote:
                  >
                  > > Sorry, back again,
                  > >
                  > > Being an all grain brewer and this morning the unexpected owner of 25
                  > > Kg. of cut wheat, can anyone tell me if I can try to make some all
                  > > wheat bourbon?
                  > >
                  > > Have looked on Home Distillation site under "sour mash" and "Jack"
                  > > reports a method which seems to only use plain wheat.
                  > >
                  > > All the beers I have ever brewed have used an amount of pale malt to
                  > > supply the enzymes the yeasts need to convert the sugar.
                  > >
                  > > "Jack" says when adding the yeast add the enzyme, what enzyme would
                  > > this be? Would it be invertase? Or maybe he means yeast nutrient?
                  > >
                  > > Could anyone tell me?
                  > >
                  > > How would you make the mash sour the first time? it seems to be a
                  > > chicken or egg question. Could you do it with an acid?
                  > >
                  > > That'll probably be enough for now,
                  > > no sense in wearing out your welcome.
                  > >
                  > > Regards Tony.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > new_distillers-unsubscribe@onelist.com
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  >new_distillers-unsubscribe@onelist.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >




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                • John Vandermeulen
                  Hello Jack/ups, I missed out on which brand (of bourbon?) uses whisky , would you refresh my memory on this please? I did try the Beano on my wheat wort, but
                  Message 8 of 24 , Aug 3, 2002
                    Hello Jack/ups,
                    I missed out on which brand (of bourbon?) uses 'whisky', would you refresh my
                    memory on this please?
                    I did try the Beano on my wheat wort, but probably not at the appropriate time
                    in the process. Next time I will get the mash ready, WITH the beano and the
                    malt/amylase early on in the process, and not at the very end.
                    Anyway ..... I decanted the wheat wort into a bunch of canning jars which have
                    been in the fridge over night, and settled out nicely. Today or tomorrow I
                    will suck off the good liquid with a gravy baster (one of those rubber bulb
                    things).

                    But .. do you have any suggestions for a fining substance that might 'gel' the
                    junk in the bottom of the jars sothat it won't get stirred up again? I just
                    read a website of a Vancouver-based micro-brewery - that uses diatomaceous
                    earth as primary filter, followed by micro-porous paper filters for secondary /
                    final clearing of the beer. I do wonder about this diatom. earth. Yesterday I
                    spent a couple of hours trying to pour the stuff through a wad of cotton
                    batten. That works with a less clogging wort, but not with this wheat stuff.

                    I think that the filtration question is not a problem for the industrial
                    big-boys, as they can design and afford special items. It becomes a
                    mega-problem for the hobbyist distiller working with 5 or 10 gallons, as there
                    really are not affordable and appropriate mini-systems.

                    Jack - I am attaching a url to a very interesting article (academic).
                    http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache:tLGUVXWqIP4C:bibd.uni-giessen.de/gdoc/2001/uni/d010023/d010023j.pdf+fining+mash&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

                    I know that you normally do not like attachments, but I found this one through
                    searching with google. It describes in good detail the role of phenols in
                    wines, etc.

                    Finally, I don't find any bit of info. and arcana "useless fact". These
                    'useless facts' form the basis for a fascinating bit of western cultural
                    history. In fact, I would really like to know more about the design and
                    function of the alembic still, especially as it slowly passed from the
                    alchemist's 'laboratory' into the hands of 15th and 16th century peasant
                    brewers. Distilling is fascinating just because it still relies on the
                    simplest techniques, despite all the ancillary advances in chemistry, computer
                    control, etc. etc.

                    Well - anyway, John V.
                    ups474@... wrote:

                    > So close- not Bourbon
                    > not Whiskey
                    > It is, in fact- Whisky- no "e" in the spelling. The founder of
                    > the brand asked (and recieved permission) from some Scotch association (in
                    > Scotland) to use the Scottish spelling of whisky, out of respect for his
                    > family line.
                    > This has been another useless fact.
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > new_distillers-unsubscribe@onelist.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  • Geoff Redman
                    Hello John V., You were discussing filtering with diatomaceous earth. I was wondering if you ever used bentonite as a fining agent? geoff
                    Message 9 of 24 , Aug 3, 2002
                      Hello John V.,

                      You were discussing filtering with diatomaceous earth. I was wondering
                      if you ever used bentonite as a fining agent?

                      geoff
                    • John Vandermeulen
                      No, I have not - except for the bentonite that I believe is part of Sparkolloid. However, next time I m at the brew-store I will look for some. Thank you,
                      Message 10 of 24 , Aug 3, 2002
                        No, I have not - except for the bentonite that I believe is part of
                        Sparkolloid. However, next time I'm at the brew-store I will look for some.
                        Thank you,
                        John V

                        Geoff Redman wrote:

                        > Hello John V.,
                        >
                        > You were discussing filtering with diatomaceous earth. I was wondering
                        > if you ever used bentonite as a fining agent?
                        >
                        > geoff
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > new_distillers-unsubscribe@onelist.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      • ups474@aol.com
                        It depends on the enzyme content of your malt- 6-row is the highest, 2-row doesn t have the enzymic power to convert 10 times it s weight in starch. You may
                        Message 11 of 24 , Aug 3, 2002
                          It depends on the enzyme content of your malt- 6-row is the highest, 2-row doesn't have the enzymic power to convert 10 times it's weight in starch.
                          You may want to ask a pharmacist about an enzyme- based anti gas medication- check some books in the library on over-the-counter drugs, see if you find one listed, then go to the local druggist to see if he has it, or will order it for you.  I ran out, so I don't have the bottle handy.
                        • ups474@aol.com
                          Not a good idea when you ferment on the grain (like we are doing here)- if you add the hulls to the ferment, you get a really nasty tannic, straw like flavor.
                          Message 12 of 24 , Aug 3, 2002
                            Not a good idea when you ferment on the grain (like we are doing here)- if you add the hulls to the ferment, you get a really nasty tannic, straw like flavor.  If you can't get the stuff to thin out, try the recipe using the oat/rice/etc hulls, cracked corn, malted wheat, a10%addition of 6-row barley, then mash it like an all grain beer, and sparge off the liquid- it might just work.  The Lambic style of beer is made with a 50/50 blend of barley and wheat malt- they still have to add hulls to the mash.  They also stir the mash as they sparge off the liquid (called a "turbid mash" system)- it makes the wort very cloudy, which is bad for beer (unless you filter it), but it shouldn't matter for whisky.
                          • ups474@aol.com
                            The wheat whiskey posted on Tony s site is from Maker s Mark- that s the brand that spells their type whisky. As for the dia. earth - DON T. that stuff is
                            Message 13 of 24 , Aug 3, 2002
                              The wheat whiskey posted on Tony's site is from Maker's Mark- that's the brand that spells their type whisky.
                              As for the dia. earth  - DON'T.
                              that stuff is mixed with beer, then pushed (under pressure) through a filter plate, as the beer runs through, the Dia earth, packs itself against the filter, increasing effeciency as the filter proceeds- for a home setting using gravity, it would just make a huge mess, as the Dia. earth clogs up your filter.  Using bentonite to help drag down the particles, then siphoning off the clear layer is the best way, unless you want to buy one of those expensive filter setups.
                              As for the alembic still's passage from chemists' hands to the use of the peasantry- it's easy to understand.  The originators of ethanol were trying to find the "essence" of existance- they concentrated everything to try to find the "universal active ingredient".  This resulted in ethanol- a remarkable discovery.  A liquid resembling water that burned and had the same effect as four times as much wine!  Initially it was used as a medicine- it became a fad- prescribed (with various other ingredients added) for everything (like an ancient prozac or ritalin), until it became acceptable to drink it even when you were not sick- a recreational beverage totally removed from the structure of a religious inebriant, such as wine, mead, opium, or hash- preventing the backlash from the religious establishment ("you are abusing the sacred "fill-in-the-drug"!/you are under the influence of the Devil's "whatever"!) that tended to result in demonization, then illegal status (read: hash).  As a result of this migration in status, it went from the "secret alchemists' concoction" to something an enterprising alchemist could mass produce, and make money on (provided that sitting in the dark next to a crucible of boiling mercury hasn't caused enough damage to make linear thought impossible).  If you look at various woodcuts from the 15 to 16th century, you see many different designs, some so inefficient looking that they are extinct, until evolution in efficiency gave us the modern potstill, and then the reflux still.  It looks like you and I share an interest in the historic study of this hobby/industry.
                            • staffdevuk
                              ... highest, 2-row ... starch. I ll get some six row. ... medication- I did some checking and Beano is not approved here yet, but its active ingredient
                              Message 14 of 24 , Aug 4, 2002
                                --- In new_distillers@y..., ups474@a... wrote:
                                > It depends on the enzyme content of your malt- 6-row is the
                                highest, 2-row
                                > doesn't have the enzymic power to convert 10 times it's weight in
                                starch.

                                I'll get some six row.

                                > You may want to ask a pharmacist about an enzyme- based anti gas
                                medication-

                                I did some checking and "Beano" is not approved here yet, but its'
                                active ingredient is(wait for it) Alpha Galactosidase Enzyme
                                (Melibiase) derived from Aspergillus Niger (Black Mould).

                                I wondered if Koji , The mould used in sake making would do the job.

                                It seems by its name Aspergillus Oryzae to be related to the stuff
                                in "Beano" only the whole organism is used not just an extract.

                                I can obtain Koji easily,what do you think?


                                Tony.
                              • John Vandermeulen
                                Hello, further re Aspergillus - I forgot to mention that it is used in animal feed for dairy cattle, poultry, hogs, etc. John V
                                Message 15 of 24 , Aug 4, 2002
                                  Hello, further re Aspergillus - I forgot to mention that it is used in animal
                                  feed for dairy cattle, poultry, hogs, etc.
                                  John V

                                  staffdevuk wrote:

                                  > --- In new_distillers@y..., ups474@a... wrote:
                                  > > It depends on the enzyme content of your malt- 6-row is the
                                  > highest, 2-row
                                  > > doesn't have the enzymic power to convert 10 times it's weight in
                                  > starch.
                                  >
                                  > I'll get some six row.
                                  >
                                  > > You may want to ask a pharmacist about an enzyme- based anti gas
                                  > medication-
                                  >
                                  > I did some checking and "Beano" is not approved here yet, but its'
                                  > active ingredient is(wait for it) Alpha Galactosidase Enzyme
                                  > (Melibiase) derived from Aspergillus Niger (Black Mould).
                                  >
                                  > I wondered if Koji , The mould used in sake making would do the job.
                                  >
                                  > It seems by its name Aspergillus Oryzae to be related to the stuff
                                  > in "Beano" only the whole organism is used not just an extract.
                                  >
                                  > I can obtain Koji easily,what do you think?
                                  >
                                  > Tony.
                                  >
                                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > new_distillers-unsubscribe@onelist.com
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                • staffdevuk
                                  ... in animal ... So are wheat, barley, corn, oats, water & buckets. Tony.
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Aug 4, 2002
                                    --- In new_distillers@y..., John Vandermeulen <vandermeulen@n...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > Hello, further re Aspergillus - I forgot to mention that it is used
                                    in animal
                                    > feed for dairy cattle, poultry, hogs, etc.
                                    > John V
                                    >


                                    So are wheat, barley, corn, oats, water & buckets.

                                    Tony.
                                  • ups474@aol.com
                                    NO KOJI!! it has a very strange aroma/flavor. If used in sake, it gives the traditional sake tartness and aroma (can only be described as biological)- in
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Aug 4, 2002
                                      NO KOJI!!
                                      it has a very strange aroma/flavor. If used in sake, it gives the
                                      traditional sake tartness and aroma (can only be described as biological)- in
                                      whiskey mash it RUINS the flavor, totally mars the flavor of the grain- it
                                      must NOT BE USED!
                                    • staffdevuk
                                      ... biological)- in ... grain- it ... Jack ups, I do wish you would be a little more decided in your comments,not so wishy washy. Have ordered some Gas-Zyme 3X
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Aug 5, 2002
                                        --- In new_distillers@y..., ups474@a... wrote:
                                        > NO KOJI!!
                                        > it has a very strange aroma/flavor. If used in sake, it gives the
                                        > traditional sake tartness and aroma (can only be described as
                                        biological)- in
                                        > whiskey mash it RUINS the flavor, totally mars the flavor of the
                                        grain- it
                                        > must NOT BE USED!

                                        Jack ups,

                                        I do wish you would be a little more decided in your comments,not so
                                        wishy washy.

                                        Have ordered some Gas-Zyme 3X capsules,they seem to have everything
                                        mentioned by correspondants cornfed etc. and 3 times as much alpha-
                                        thingummy as beano,which is not availiable in the uk .

                                        Seeing as how you have run out of beanos,would you like me to send
                                        you some of these, as we dont want you becoming known as Jack the
                                        Ripper.

                                        Cheers,Tony
                                      • ups474@aol.com
                                        LOL- I got some this morning, thanks, Tony.
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Aug 5, 2002
                                          LOL- I got some this morning, thanks, Tony.
                                        • Lynne
                                          ... ups/Jack ... a polite request: What s the chance of you including some of the original post in your responses? I regard you as one of the semi-guru s
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Aug 5, 2002
                                            At 12:02 AM 8/6/02 -0400, ups wrote:

                                            >LOL- I got some this morning, thanks, Tony.

                                            ups/Jack ... a polite request:
                                            What's the chance of you including some of the original post in your
                                            responses? I regard you as one of the semi-guru's here and find many of
                                            your posts informative, educational, occasionally amusing, blah, blah; but
                                            to be honest I haven't a clue who or what you're responding to half the
                                            time. The above is a classic example : eg. what did you get this
                                            morning? Or should I just mind my own damn business? :)

                                            Cheers,
                                            Lynne
                                          • ups474@aol.com
                                            Sorry- I got some Beano anti gas medicine for my corn and malt whiskey- Tony was joking with me about the gas medicine and my name: Jack the ripper.
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Aug 6, 2002
                                              Sorry- I got some Beano anti gas medicine for my corn and malt whiskey- Tony
                                              was joking with me about the gas medicine and my name: Jack the ripper.
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