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Re: [new_distillers] Condensor be better than a worm for pot still?/ How often you use vinegar?

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  • RLB
    Larger diameter pipe is faster, and two gallon will take between 4 and 5 hrs. using 1/2 pipe.  You could use a single 1/2 by 16 straight tube condenser
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 22, 2013
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      Larger diameter pipe is faster, and two gallon will take between 4 and 5 hrs. using 1/2 pipe. 

      You could use a single 1/2" by 16" straight tube condenser (sold by one still manufacturer), but it will take 2 fans to cool it to a liquid state when the temp goes over 190 F.  I would suggest at least 2 - 1/2" by 16" tubes to cool it properly with 1 fan.  Set it up for gravity drain, and shape it in somewhat backward S -shape.  

      I finished building my first 4 row air cooled condenser for personal use.  It is rated at condensing 0.75 gallons per minute using 1/2" copper tubing, and a 5/8" copper tubing unit is rated at 1 gallon per minute.  I used "M" copper tubing, and it took a great deal of soldering.  My next air cooled condenser will use 4 - 1/2" by 12" copper tubes.  My units will be used for condensing both my ethanol (bio fuel) and spirits.

      I built a 1/2" unit for a lot less than $500.  A company quoted me $1005 for a 5/8" unit.  


      From: James <teaguej@...>
      To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 10:07 PM
      Subject: [new_distillers] Condensor be better than a worm for pot still?/ How often you use vinegar?

       
      I built my still out of a cheap 16 quart stainless steel stock pot from Walmart that was under 10 bucks. I had some 1/2" od copper line and used probably around 12 -14 feet for my worm. I start mid morning running my vineager thru it then water till you can no longer taste it. Run the first mash running a little hot at 190 but by the time I run the first 2 gallons its midnight. I will remind you this is a single distilled. I would be looking at probably 4 to 6 in the morning to distill it a second time.

      I'm thinking the problem has to be with the copper line being coiled and has a spot in it that is not noticable or its too long. I was wondering two things. If I switched to a 3/4 inch Straight condensor reduced to 1/2 inch would the process be alot faster
      Second would I expect much change in flavor or would it be hotter. Its something I saw on you tube he referred to as a condensor but it is not a reflux colum but works on the same principle as a worm. Difference is the pipe is shorter and straight. That water flows thru the 3/4 line which inside of the 3/4" pipe is an 1/2" pipe that is containing the steam. How tall should the condensor be?

      Another question I couldnt find an answer to or may be a good poll question how often do you run white vinegar? I have heard anytime the still is not used for more then 24 hrs but that seems excessive.



    • Bubbas55
      what kind of solder did you use.. tx bubba ... From: RLB To: new_distillers Sent: Thu, Aug 22, 2013
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 22, 2013
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        what kind of solder did you use..
        tx
        bubba


        -----Original Message-----
        From: RLB <last2blast@...>
        To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thu, Aug 22, 2013 7:34 pm
        Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Condensor be better than a worm for pot still?/ How often you use vinegar?

         
        Larger diameter pipe is faster, and two gallon will take between 4 and 5 hrs. using 1/2 pipe. 

        You could use a single 1/2" by 16" straight tube condenser (sold by one still manufacturer), but it will take 2 fans to cool it to a liquid state when the temp goes over 190 F.  I would suggest at least 2 - 1/2" by 16" tubes to cool it properly with 1 fan.  Set it up for gravity drain, and shape it in somewhat backward S -shape.  

        I finished building my first 4 row air cooled condenser for personal use.  It is rated at condensing 0.75 gallons per minute using 1/2" copper tubing, and a 5/8" copper tubing unit is rated at 1 gallon per minute.  I used "M" copper tubing, and it took a great deal of soldering.  My next air cooled condenser will use 4 - 1/2" by 12" copper tubes.  My units will be used for condensing both my ethanol (bio fuel) and spirits.

        I built a 1/2" unit for a lot less than $500.  A company quoted me $1005 for a 5/8" unit.  


        From: James <teaguej@...>
        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 10:07 PM
        Subject: [new_distillers] Condensor be better than a worm for pot still?/ How often you use vinegar?

         
        I built my still out of a cheap 16 quart stainless steel stock pot from Walmart that was under 10 bucks. I had some 1/2" od copper line and used probably around 12 -14 feet for my worm. I start mid morning running my vineager thru it then water till you can no longer taste it. Run the first mash running a little hot at 190 but by the time I run the first 2 gallons its midnight. I will remind you this is a single distilled. I would be looking at probably 4 to 6 in the morning to distill it a second time.

        I'm thinking the problem has to be with the copper line being coiled and has a spot in it that is not noticable or its too long. I was wondering two things. If I switched to a 3/4 inch Straight condensor reduced to 1/2 inch would the process be alot faster
        Second would I expect much change in flavor or would it be hotter. Its something I saw on you tube he referred to as a condensor but it is not a reflux colum but works on the same principle as a worm. Difference is the pipe is shorter and straight. That water flows thru the 3/4 line which inside of the 3/4" pipe is an 1/2" pipe that is containing the steam. How tall should the condensor be?

        Another question I couldnt find an answer to or may be a good poll question how often do you run white vinegar? I have heard anytime the still is not used for more then 24 hrs but that seems excessive.



      • RLB
        Bubba I would hope that I have enough common sense to use Silver solder rather than a lead based solder.  I even cleaned out the tubes before soldering.   I
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 22, 2013
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          Bubba

          I would hope that I have enough common sense to use Silver solder rather than a lead based solder.  I even cleaned out the tubes before soldering. *:) happy  I will post photos after my next condenser is finished (My first one was really ugly.)


          From: Bubbas55 <bubbas55@...>
          To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 8:14 PM
          Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Condensor be better than a worm for pot still?/ How often you use vinegar?

           
          what kind of solder did you use..
          tx
          bubba


          -----Original Message-----
          From: RLB <last2blast@...>
          To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thu, Aug 22, 2013 7:34 pm
          Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Condensor be better than a worm for pot still?/ How often you use vinegar?

           
          Larger diameter pipe is faster, and two gallon will take between 4 and 5 hrs. using 1/2 pipe. 

          You could use a single 1/2" by 16" straight tube condenser (sold by one still manufacturer), but it will take 2 fans to cool it to a liquid state when the temp goes over 190 F.  I would suggest at least 2 - 1/2" by 16" tubes to cool it properly with 1 fan.  Set it up for gravity drain, and shape it in somewhat backward S -shape.  

          I finished building my first 4 row air cooled condenser for personal use.  It is rated at condensing 0.75 gallons per minute using 1/2" copper tubing, and a 5/8" copper tubing unit is rated at 1 gallon per minute.  I used "M" copper tubing, and it took a great deal of soldering.  My next air cooled condenser will use 4 - 1/2" by 12" copper tubes.  My units will be used for condensing both my ethanol (bio fuel) and spirits.

          I built a 1/2" unit for a lot less than $500.  A company quoted me $1005 for a 5/8" unit.  

        • Bubbas55
          sorry didnt mean to offend... just wondering what kind... bubba ... From: RLB To: new_distillers Sent:
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 22, 2013
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            sorry didnt mean to offend... just wondering what kind...
            bubba


            -----Original Message-----
            From: RLB <last2blast@...>
            To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thu, Aug 22, 2013 9:41 pm
            Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Condensor be better than a worm for pot still?/ How often you use vinegar?

             
            Bubba

            I would hope that I have enough common sense to use Silver solder rather than a lead based solder.  I even cleaned out the tubes before soldering. *:) happy  I will post photos after my next condenser is finished (My first one was really ugly.)


            From: Bubbas55 <bubbas55@...>
            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 8:14 PM
            Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Condensor be better than a worm for pot still?/ How often you use vinegar?

             
            what kind of solder did you use..
            tx
            bubba


            -----Original Message-----
            From: RLB <last2blast@...>
            To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thu, Aug 22, 2013 7:34 pm
            Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Condensor be better than a worm for pot still?/ How often you use vinegar?

             
            Larger diameter pipe is faster, and two gallon will take between 4 and 5 hrs. using 1/2 pipe. 

            You could use a single 1/2" by 16" straight tube condenser (sold by one still manufacturer), but it will take 2 fans to cool it to a liquid state when the temp goes over 190 F.  I would suggest at least 2 - 1/2" by 16" tubes to cool it properly with 1 fan.  Set it up for gravity drain, and shape it in somewhat backward S -shape.  

            I finished building my first 4 row air cooled condenser for personal use.  It is rated at condensing 0.75 gallons per minute using 1/2" copper tubing, and a 5/8" copper tubing unit is rated at 1 gallon per minute.  I used "M" copper tubing, and it took a great deal of soldering.  My next air cooled condenser will use 4 - 1/2" by 12" copper tubes.  My units will be used for condensing both my ethanol (bio fuel) and spirits.

            I built a 1/2" unit for a lot less than $500.  A company quoted me $1005 for a 5/8" unit.  

          • tgfoitwoods
            Replies inline, in blue. ... quart of shine with my set up. I have seen stills advertised 1/2 gallon in an hour. I m using propane as my heat source. My
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 22, 2013
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              Replies inline, in blue.
              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "James" wrote:
              >
              >
              > Actually some of your comments will help. It takes two hours to get a quart of shine with my set up. I have seen stills advertised 1/2 gallon in an hour. I'm using propane as my heat source. My first run is always hard to maintain the temperature but I dont get too concerned for when I go for a second distill maintaining the temperature is fairly easy on the second run.

              Actually, if you are boiling (and if you're not, you're not really distilling) there is no such thing as maintaining the temperature. Your wash will boil at a point determined by the relative concentrations of volatile liquids in your wash, by some very specific physical laws. Note that as teh still run progresses, the wash concentrations change, and the boiling point goes up. What I think you are seeing is that in a stripping run, the temperature rises more quickly than it does in a spirit run, and so it seems that the spirit run temperature is more controllable.

              Take a look at the following figure, which plots observed data  from 3 stripping runs (the solid red line, lumped together), and the spirit run from those low wines (the solid blue line). Note how the  stripping run temperature rises quickly and the run is over quickly.  The spirit run temperature rises much more slowly and takes many hours.

              Cider strip and spirit runs   
              >
              > I wasn't sure if this was normal seeing that a similar size still runs half a gallon in an hour which mine does not.

              As I mentioned in a previous post, the amount of vapor you make, and therefor the amount of distillate you could/should collect, is entirely dependent on the amount of energy you put in. Double the energy in, double the vapor production. As for the condenser, either it's capable of condensing all the vapor, or it isn't. If it isn't, you'll see uncondensed vapor whooshing from the output of your condenser. If you don't see that, a bigger condenser won't increase the amount of distillate you collect, because it's already condensing everything you have vaporized.

              With my particular propane burner under my 15.5-gallon keg still, I can get maybe 3 pints an hour, stripping.

              >
              > Here is what I was asking. If I change from using 3/8 id copper to 1/2 id would in theory would it run faster since there is more area to collect the vapor? The wormstyle has more cooling surface area then the straight condensor so would that possibly effect the smoothness of your product. I have been taught the cooler the water the smoother the product. Am I possibly sacrificing smoothness for quickness?

              Cooling water temperature has no practical effect on your product's smoothness. Come to think about it, the warmer your distillate, the more evaporation you will have of the lighter, harsher fractions, so oyur distillate would be marginally smoother. The effect would not be worth trying for, I'm thinking; how you make your cuts is way more important.
              >
              > Last question is do I always need to run white vinegar before each batch if it has been a few days since the still has been used
              NO
              or is this only for breaking it in or if it has sat for a long time. Running a vinegar wash thru it and flushing it of course doubles or triples your time in making a small run.
              >
              > I will admit part of the long time is also attribute to the fact I am inexperienced and didnt cut the tail off as quick as I should but I am running it all back thru another time making sure I do not get any tail in the finished product or final run.
              > Again thank you
              >
              You're very welcome.

              Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

              >
              >
              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" zymurgybob@ wrote:
              > >
              > > I'm not completely sure what problem you're asking about, but we can
              > > start to shed some light on it, and maybe you can helpus as we go. First
              > > off, for a potstill, that "hot at 190" is actually an unusually low
              > > starting temperature, and 190 tell us that your wash started at about
              > > 22% ABV, an unusually high ethanol concentration. To clarify, all your
              > > head temperature tells you is what the current wash ABV is; you or the
              > > still have no control over that temperature.
              > >
              > > Yes, depending on the size of your boiler and the heat input, still runs
              > > can take some time. I've had spirit runs with 12 gallons of 30% wash go
              > > well into the wee hours. It's still not clear what the condenser/worm
              > > problem is, but are you getting no steady flow or pulsing output? That
              > > could indicate a low spot in your worm.
              > >
              > > Change in flavor from wash to distillate or from worm to liebig
              > > condenser" Not sure what you're asking here. The speed of the process
              > > (output rate) is determined by BOTH the heat input rate and the ability
              > > of whatever condenser to to condense vapor at what rate. Examples: If
              > > you had a million watt heater and a tiny condenser, you'd have to turn
              > > down the heat or you'll just blow vapor through the still. If you have a
              > > huge and powerful condenser, but only input 5 watts, you'd only get 5
              > > watts worth of vapor out of your still. The input heat and condenser
              > > heat removal capacity need to be balanced for maximum output.
              > >
              > > As far as I'm concerned, that vinegar use us hugely un-necessary.
              > >
              > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "James" wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I built my still out of a cheap 16 quart stainless steel stock pot
              > > from Walmart that was under 10 bucks. I had some 1/2" od copper line
              > > and used probably around 12 -14 feet for my worm. I start mid morning
              > > running my vineager thru it then water till you can no longer taste it.
              > > Run the first mash running a little hot at 190 but by the time I run the
              > > first 2 gallons its midnight. I will remind you this is a single
              > > distilled. I would be looking at probably 4 to 6 in the morning to
              > > distill it a second time.
              > > >
              > > > I'm thinking the problem has to be with the copper line being coiled
              > > and has a spot in it that is not noticable or its too long. I was
              > > wondering two things. If I switched to a 3/4 inch Straight condensor
              > > reduced to 1/2 inch would the process be alot faster
              > > > Second would I expect much change in flavor or would it be hotter.
              > > Its something I saw on you tube he referred to as a condensor but it is
              > > not a reflux colum but works on the same principle as a worm. Difference
              > > is the pipe is shorter and straight. That water flows thru the 3/4 line
              > > which inside of the 3/4" pipe is an 1/2" pipe that is containing the
              > > steam. How tall should the condensor be?
              > > >
              > > > Another question I couldnt find an answer to or may be a good poll
              > > question how often do you run white vinegar? I have heard anytime the
              > > still is not used for more then 24 hrs but that seems excessive.
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • o1bigtenor
              Its actually real difficult to find a lead based solder today. You have to look for it and specify it!! I think that lead based solders have been largely
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 24, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                Its actually real difficult to find a lead based solder today. You have to look for it and specify it!!

                I think that lead based solders have been largely unavailable for quite some time.

                Now if you solder is something you bought 30 years ago by all means be careful its just lead is a very large public whipping boy these days so its actually quite hard to get for some things where lead is actually and excellent product!     D


                On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 8:28 PM, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:


                Bubba

                I would hope that I have enough common sense to use Silver solder rather than a lead based solder.  I even cleaned out the tubes before soldering. *:) happy  I will post photos after my next condenser is finished (My first one was really ugly.)


                From: Bubbas55 <bubbas55@...>
                To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 8:14 PM

                Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Condensor be better than a worm for pot still?/ How often you use vinegar?

                 
                what kind of solder did you use..
                tx
                bubba


                -----Original Message-----
                From: RLB <last2blast@...>
                To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thu, Aug 22, 2013 7:34 pm
                Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Condensor be better than a worm for pot still?/ How often you use vinegar?

                 
                Larger diameter pipe is faster, and two gallon will take between 4 and 5 hrs. using 1/2 pipe. 

                You could use a single 1/2" by 16" straight tube condenser (sold by one still manufacturer), but it will take 2 fans to cool it to a liquid state when the temp goes over 190 F.  I would suggest at least 2 - 1/2" by 16" tubes to cool it properly with 1 fan.  Set it up for gravity drain, and shape it in somewhat backward S -shape.  

                I finished building my first 4 row air cooled condenser for personal use.  It is rated at condensing 0.75 gallons per minute using 1/2" copper tubing, and a 5/8" copper tubing unit is rated at 1 gallon per minute.  I used "M" copper tubing, and it took a great deal of soldering.  My next air cooled condenser will use 4 - 1/2" by 12" copper tubes.  My units will be used for condensing both my ethanol (bio fuel) and spirits.

                I built a 1/2" unit for a lot less than $500.  A company quoted me $1005 for a 5/8" unit.  




              • RLB
                I bought a 1 lb roll at Lowe s a few months ago, and I made sure it stated lead free.  That is what was used on my copper pipes.  Actually, lead based solder
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 24, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  I bought a 1 lb roll at Lowe's a few months ago, and I made sure it stated lead free.  That is what was used on my copper pipes.  Actually, lead based solder is still available from most electric parts stores.  I purchase lead/tin solder for my electronics because it melts at a lower temp and less likely to damage electronic parts.

                  In the long run, a condenser is much better than a worm even on a small scale because it uses less energy and you don't need water to cool it.  Yes, a condenser is more costly to startup, but it will pay for its self.  A moonshiner can't setup a still unless they have a fresh supply of water, but a still can be setup anyplace with a condenser.  All you need is a battery, Photoelectrochemical cell, and fan.  A fan is almost silent even at night.  A person who uses well water will save a great deal on their electric bill by running a fan verses their water pump.  If you didn't realize it by now I am a fan of condensers over worms.


                  From: o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@...>
                  To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 12:55 PM
                  Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Condensor be better than a worm for pot still?/ How often you use vinegar?

                   
                  Its actually real difficult to find a lead based solder today. You have to look for it and specify it!!

                  I think that lead based solders have been largely unavailable for quite some time.

                  Now if you solder is something you bought 30 years ago by all means be careful its just lead is a very large public whipping boy these days so its actually quite hard to get for some things where lead is actually and excellent product!     D


                  On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 8:28 PM, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:


                  Bubba

                  I would hope that I have enough common sense to use Silver solder rather than a lead based solder.  I even cleaned out the tubes before soldering. *:) happy  I will post photos after my next condenser is finished (My first one was really ugly.)


                  From: Bubbas55 <bubbas55@...>
                  To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 8:14 PM

                  Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Condensor be better than a worm for pot still?/ How often you use vinegar?

                   
                  what kind of solder did you use..
                  tx
                  bubba


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: RLB <last2blast@...>
                  To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thu, Aug 22, 2013 7:34 pm
                  Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Condensor be better than a worm for pot still?/ How often you use vinegar?

                   
                  Larger diameter pipe is faster, and two gallon will take between 4 and 5 hrs. using 1/2 pipe. 

                  You could use a single 1/2" by 16" straight tube condenser (sold by one still manufacturer), but it will take 2 fans to cool it to a liquid state when the temp goes over 190 F.  I would suggest at least 2 - 1/2" by 16" tubes to cool it properly with 1 fan.  Set it up for gravity drain, and shape it in somewhat backward S -shape.  

                  I finished building my first 4 row air cooled condenser for personal use.  It is rated at condensing 0.75 gallons per minute using 1/2" copper tubing, and a 5/8" copper tubing unit is rated at 1 gallon per minute.  I used "M" copper tubing, and it took a great deal of soldering.  My next air cooled condenser will use 4 - 1/2" by 12" copper tubes.  My units will be used for condensing both my ethanol (bio fuel) and spirits.

                  I built a 1/2" unit for a lot less than $500.  A company quoted me $1005 for a 5/8" unit.  






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