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Re: [new_distillers] Re: Confuzzled

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  • cnapier@att.net
    Bob...... I always enjoy your posts......and I m amazed at the knowledge you possess. So......The grain is basically a waste of time? I m getting some flavor
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 24, 2013
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      Bob......

      I always enjoy your posts......and I'm amazed at the knowledge you possess.

      So......The grain is basically a waste of time?

      I'm getting some flavor at the expense of potential alcohol?

      Thanks again for your insight.

      Claude


      From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
      To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wed, April 24, 2013 3:11:30 AM
      Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Confuzzled

       

      Claude,

      No mud dragging, guaranteed.

      A bit of simple calculation gives me this: 5 gallons of sugar and 5 gallons of water = 1 pound per gallon, which should give you a specific gravity of ~1.045 and a potential alcohol of ~5.9%, maximum.

      That means that the very best you could expect is 5.9% of 5 gallons of ethanol, or .354 gallons, which equals 45 fluid ounces of ethanol. Diluting all that ethanol (without making cuts) to 80% gives you a total of 56 ounces at 80% ABV (160 proof).

      Since those are absolute maximum possible numbers, 40 ounces isn't too bad.

      What did all that grain get you? Absolutely nothing except for a bit of yeast nutrient, and maybe a bit of flavor. Remember that grain is essentially all starch, and yeast can only eat sugar, so unleess you do a proper grain mash with enzymes from malt or a bottle, and the correct times and temperature, to convert that grain starch to sugar, the grain is worthless to the yeast.

      Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits


      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "cnapier@..." wrote:
      >
      > Ok.....need help.
      >
      > I've run multiple sessions of shine.
      >
      > I like very much the flavor of my shine.
      >
      > 4 inches of all grain...corn, barley, maple mix.
      > 5 pounds white sugar.
      > 5 gallons distilled water.
      > 2 teaspoons dady brewers yeast.
      > Water temp 70 degrees
      > All in glass carboy
      >
      > Wait til yeast is finished.
      >
      > Distilled in pot still.
      > Double barreled condenser.
      >
      > Done on hot plate.....plenty of heat.
      >
      > Lucky to get 40 oz on stripping run.
      > Run again....less than a quart of 160 proof.
      >
      > Feel free to drag me thru the mud.
      >
      > Claude
      >
      > Sent from my HTC EVO 4G LTE exclusively from Sprint
      >

    • tgfoitwoods
      Claude, As you did it, the grain is not a complete waste of time; it s a source of some flavor (as in the Uncle Jesse s Simple Sour Mash recipe, a sugar wash
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 24, 2013
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        Claude,

        As you did it, the grain is not a complete waste of time; it's a source of some flavor (as in the Uncle Jesse's Simple Sour Mash recipe, a sugar wash flavored with grain), but without another whole set of steps it's contributing nothing to the alcohol concentration.

        The people who do this "'nother whole set of steps" best, or at least most commonly, are the "allgrain" beer brewers, and their processes are documented all over the web. For the grain barley, the brewer's grain of choice, here's the process: 

        1. The dry whole grain is moistened and warmed to make it think spring has arrived, so the grain starts sprouting and producing enzymes that can convert starches to sugars. It is then kilned to stop the "malting" process and stabilize the grain so it can be stored and shipped. It's now malted barley, or barley malt, and you can buy it at your local homebrew supply store.

        2. The brewer cracks the grain, and heats it in water to ~155F, varying a bit depending on what kind of beer you're making. This temperature is warm enough to enable the malt enzymes to start converting the grain starch to sugar, but not so hot as to "kill' (denature) the enzymes.

        3. The now-sweetened grain water is drained off (lautered) and rinsed out of the grain (sparged), and can now be fermented to drink as beer or to distill as whiskey.

        As complicated as this may sound, barley is the easy grain to convert starches. It's "the brewer's friend". In fact, barley malt has enough enzymes in it to convert starches in some less-friendly grains, corn for example.

        If you choose to work with grains, I'd really suggest starting with purchased barley malt; there'll be time enough later to try harder grains to use. I'm still working on my corn-mashing procedures, ans it's still kind of a PITA.

        Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits


        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, cnapier@... wrote:
        >
        > Bob......
        >
        > I always enjoy your posts......and I'm amazed at the knowledge you possess.
        >
        > So......The grain is basically a waste of time?
        >
        > I'm getting some flavor at the expense of potential alcohol?
        >
        > Thanks again for your insight.
        >
        > Claude
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: tgfoitwoods zymurgybob@...
        > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Wed, April 24, 2013 3:11:30 AM
        > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Confuzzled
        >
        >
        > Claude,
        >
        > No mud dragging, guaranteed.
        >
        > A bit of simple calculation gives me this: 5 gallons of sugar and 5 gallons of
        > water = 1 pound per gallon, which should give you a specific gravity of ~1.045
        > and a potential alcohol of ~5.9%, maximum.
        >
        > That means that the very best you could expect is 5.9% of 5 gallons of ethanol,
        > or .354 gallons, which equals 45 fluid ounces of ethanol. Diluting all that
        > ethanol (without making cuts) to 80% gives you a total of 56 ounces at 80% ABV
        > (160 proof).
        >
        > Since those are absolute maximum possible numbers, 40 ounces isn't too bad.
        >
        > What did all that grain get you? Absolutely nothing except for a bit of yeast
        > nutrient, and maybe a bit of flavor. Remember that grain is essentially all
        > starch, and yeast can only eat sugar, so unleess you do a proper grain mash with
        > enzymes from malt or a bottle, and the correct times and temperature, to convert
        > that grain starch to sugar, the grain is worthless to the yeast.
        >
        > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
        >
        >
        > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "cnapier@..." wrote:
        > >
        > > Ok.....need help.
        > >
        > > I've run multiple sessions of shine.
        > >
        > > I like very much the flavor of my shine.
        > >
        > > 4 inches of all grain...corn, barley, maple mix.
        > > 5 pounds white sugar.
        > > 5 gallons distilled water.
        > > 2 teaspoons dady brewers yeast.
        > > Water temp 70 degrees
        > > All in glass carboy
        > >
        > > Wait til yeast is finished.
        > >
        > > Distilled in pot still.
        > > Double barreled condenser.
        > >
        > > Done on hot plate.....plenty of heat.
        > >
        > > Lucky to get 40 oz on stripping run.
        > > Run again....less than a quart of 160 proof.
        > >
        > > Feel free to drag me thru the mud.
        > >
        > > Claude
        > >
        > > Sent from my HTC EVO 4G LTE exclusively from Sprint
        > >
        >
      • local yokel
        try this process: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=725 it makes a fine whiskey aged or nice moonshine straight from the tap. It is very
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 24, 2013
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          try this process: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=725 it makes a fine whiskey aged or nice moonshine straight from the tap. It is very similar to what you are currently doing.

          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "cnapier@..." <cnapier@...> wrote:
          >
          > Ok.....need help.
          >
          > I've run multiple sessions of shine.
          >
          > I like very much the flavor of my shine.
          >
          > 4 inches of all grain...corn, barley, maple mix.
          > 5 pounds white sugar.
          > 5 gallons distilled water.
          > 2 teaspoons dady brewers yeast.
          > Water temp 70 degrees
          > All in glass carboy
          >
          > Wait til yeast is finished.
          >
          > Distilled in pot still.
          > Double barreled condenser.
          >
          > Done on hot plate.....plenty of heat.
          >
          > Lucky to get 40 oz on stripping run.
          > Run again....less than a quart of 160 proof.
          >
          > Feel free to drag me thru the mud.
          >
          > Claude
          >
          > Sent from my HTC EVO 4G LTE exclusively from Sprint
          >
        • cnapier@att.net
          So....at the point of pointing out my slowness. I ve made both ways.....simple and cooked.... I seemingly confused the two methods....... Both used the 4
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 24, 2013
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            So....at the point of pointing out my slowness.

            I've made both ways.....simple and cooked....

            I seemingly confused the two methods.......

            Both used the 4 inches of grain......water.....5lbs sugar.

            And since I obtained shine from both.......I just figured I'd had gone south with something.

            I am cooking the grain as we speak.......I must have figured the simple was easier since I just dumped the grain in and carried on.

            So.......laziness on my part.

            And I drag my own name thru the mud.

            Claude




            From: local yokel <stridemiester@...>
            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wed, April 24, 2013 2:51:12 PM
            Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Confuzzled

             

            try this process: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=725 it makes a fine whiskey aged or nice moonshine straight from the tap. It is very similar to what you are currently doing.

            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "cnapier@..." <cnapier@...> wrote:
            >
            > Ok.....need help.
            >
            > I've run multiple sessions of shine.
            >
            > I like very much the flavor of my shine.
            >
            > 4 inches of all grain...corn, barley, maple mix.
            > 5 pounds white sugar.
            > 5 gallons distilled water.
            > 2 teaspoons dady brewers yeast.
            > Water temp 70 degrees
            > All in glass carboy
            >
            > Wait til yeast is finished.
            >
            > Distilled in pot still.
            > Double barreled condenser.
            >
            > Done on hot plate.....plenty of heat.
            >
            > Lucky to get 40 oz on stripping run.
            > Run again....less than a quart of 160 proof.
            >
            > Feel free to drag me thru the mud.
            >
            > Claude
            >
            > Sent from my HTC EVO 4G LTE exclusively from Sprint
            >

          • Bob Glicksman
            It has been said before, but this bares repeating: TEST your wash to make sure that you have converted the starch to sugar. A very simple test is the
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 24, 2013
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              It has been said before, but this bares repeating:  TEST your wash to make sure that you have converted the starch to sugar.  A very simple test is the thickness and solubility of the mash.  Originally, the starch in the grain is not water soluble and your mash is something like oatmeal.  Even if mixed very well, there is an obvious fine grained lumpiness to it.  After processing with amylases for even a few minutes, the mash smooths out and thins out considerably.  Processing for starch to sugar is NOT complete at this point, but at least you know that it has started.

              The most definitive test for completion of starch conversion is the "iodine" test.  Use 2% iodine solution (Lugol's soltion) on a small sample of the wort (converted mash) to see if it turns dark purple -- dark purple indicates the presence of starch, but not how much (so even a tiny bit shows up).  I have found it hard to observe the color change in the "real world", as the wort probably has color, as does your sample cup.  It helps to take two small (one or two tsb is enough) samples in two identical cups and put one drop of Lugol's in one of them -- stir the iodine in and see how long it takes for the iodine color to fade and compare the two samples to see if there is a significant difference after about 10 seconds (no more).  If there is, then starch remains (which may or may not be your goal).

              A sugar hydrometer test should be made just prior to pitching the yeast and nutrient in order to obtain an estimate of potential alcohol of the beer (wash) prior to distillation.  A triple scale hydrometer and sample tube can be purchased on-line for under ten dollars US.  You need to know how much alcohol is going into your still before you can comment about how much comes out of it!

              Bob (the other)


              -----Original Message-----
              From: cnapier <cnapier@...>
              To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wed, Apr 24, 2013 3:38 pm
              Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Confuzzled

               
              So....at the point of pointing out my slowness.

              I've made both ways.....simple and cooked....

              I seemingly confused the two methods.......

              Both used the 4 inches of grain......water.....5lbs sugar.

              And since I obtained shine from both.......I just figured I'd had gone south with something.

              I am cooking the grain as we speak.......I must have figured the simple was easier since I just dumped the grain in and carried on.

              So.......laziness on my part.

              And I drag my own name thru the mud.

              Claude




              From: local yokel <stridemiester@...>
              To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, April 24, 2013 2:51:12 PM
              Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Confuzzled

               
              try this process: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=725 it makes a fine whiskey aged or nice moonshine straight from the tap. It is very similar to what you are currently doing.

              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "cnapier@..." <cnapier@...> wrote:
              >
              > Ok.....need help.
              >
              > I've run multiple sessions of shine.
              >
              > I like very much the flavor of my shine.
              >
              > 4 inches of all grain...corn, barley, maple mix.
              > 5 pounds white sugar.
              > 5 gallons distilled water.
              > 2 teaspoons dady brewers yeast.
              > Water temp 70 degrees
              > All in glass carboy
              >
              > Wait til yeast is finished.
              >
              > Distilled in pot still.
              > Double barreled condenser.
              >
              > Done on hot plate.....plenty of heat.
              >
              > Lucky to get 40 oz on stripping run.
              > Run again....less than a quart of 160 proof.
              >
              > Feel free to drag me thru the mud.
              >
              > Claude
              >
              > Sent from my HTC EVO 4G LTE exclusively from Sprint
              >

            • ben marks
              if your mash is all fermented out 100% you should be getting around 1.5 liter @160 proof with the sugar alone not counting the grain i believe i get around a
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 25, 2013
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                if your mash is all fermented out 100% you should be getting around 1.5 liter  @160 proof with the sugar alone not counting  the grain i believe i get around a gallon @ 80 proof from my recipes using about 3-4 lb of grain and 5 lbs of sugar 
                check to see if ur getting a full ferment  
                are u  doing any thing for starch conversion ?
                what grains r u using? barley, corn, wheat, rye, oats? only barley  has the inzimes for starch conversion 
                r u using 2 row or 6 row barley?  6 row is way better,  more inzimes
                ..ben


                 
                 
                 
                 
                ________________________________ 
                 
                  Whiskey is What Beer Wants to Be When it Grows Up

                ______________________

                 

                Your Car is German. Your Vodka is Russian. Your Pizza Italian. Your
                Kebab is Turkish. Your Democracy is Greek. Your Coffee Brazilian.
                Your Movies are American. Your Tea is Chinese
                . Your Shirt is Mexican.
                Your Oil is Saudi Arabian. Your Electronics are Japanese. Your Numbers  are

                Arabic, Your Letters are Latin. Your Cocaine is Colombian. And you
                Complain that your Neighbor is an Immigrant?

                _________________________




                To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                From: gonagin58@...
                Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 07:31:06 -0700
                Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Confuzzled

                 

                Don't use distilled water, use spring water and use bakers yeast along with the brewers yeast.


                On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 12:48 PM, cnapier@... <cnapier@...> wrote:
                 
                Ok.....need help.

                I've run multiple sessions of shine.

                I like very much the flavor of my shine.

                4 inches of all grain...corn, barley, maple mix.
                5 pounds white sugar.
                5 gallons distilled water.
                2 teaspoons dady brewers yeast.
                Water temp 70 degrees
                All in glass carboy

                Wait til yeast is finished.

                Distilled in pot still.
                Double barreled condenser.

                Done on hot plate.....plenty of heat.

                Lucky to get 40 oz on stripping run.
                Run again....less than a quart of 160 proof.

                Feel free to drag me thru the mud.

                Claude

                Sent from my HTC EVO 4G LTE exclusively from Sprint





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