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RE: [new_distillers] Re: calculating heat input

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  • Craig & Carol McWhorter
    This is a little bit off the subject, but for all of you using gas/fuel, I offered the following on homedistiller.org. I have a gas (propane) fired boiler and
    Message 1 of 21 , Apr 20 2:01 PM
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      This is a little bit off the subject, but for all of you using gas/fuel, I offered the following on homedistiller.org.

       

      I have a gas (propane) fired boiler and control the heat input by measuring the discharge temperature of the condenser cooling water to get an estimate of the heat input to the boiler. The scheme that I use is as follows:

      §  As the boiler is heating up and producing no vapor/steam, I establish a water flow rate through the condenser which is measure by timing the time it takes to fill a 500 ml graduated cylinder. I then convert it to L/min (example 500 ml in 35 sec = .5L/35 sec * 60 sec/min = .875 L/min) and plug that number into the "Flow" variable in my HP 48SX Scientific calculator. Also at this time, I measure the outlet water temperature of the condenser and because there is no heat input into the condenser the inlet temperature (Ti) is equal to the outlet temperature. I plug this temperature into the "Ti" variable in my calculator.

      §  When boiling starts, I cut back on the boiler heat input and from experience I shoot for a condenser outlet temperature say around 55° C. After the outlet temperature has stabilized, I enter this temperature into my calculator and run the program to determine the heat input to my condenser which should closely approximate the heat input to the boiler. While on total reflux, I adjust the boiler heat input to the desired Watts.

      §  I have an Omega digital thermometer with dual inputs. With one of the thermocouples I am able to monitor the head temperature; the other I use to monitor the condenser outlet temperature. Because the thermocouples are of a fine gage, I was able to make pin hole, about chest high, in the clear vinyl tubing (5/16" ID) and insert the thermocouple directly into the condenser outlet water flow stream. This arrangement helps me set and monitor the cooling water flow rate. I adjust the flow to a point where the thermocouple pin hole just quits sucking air into the cooling water flow stream. If flow increases the pin hole leaks water; if it decreases it sucks air.


      The calculator is programmed with the following equation:

      Q(watts)=Mr*Cp*(Ti-To)

      Ti = Condenser Inlet Temperature °C
      To = Condenser Outlet Temperature °C
      Mr = Condenser H2O Mass Flow Rate Kg/sec
      Cp = 4200 (Watts · sec)/(Kg · °C) — Specific Heat of H2O @ approximately 50 °C

      The specific program for the HP 48SX calculator is:

      Set up the variables "Watt", "Ti", and "Flow"
      Key in < < Ti-Flow*4200*60 / > > and store it in "Watt"
      Store the inlet temperature in "Ti"
      Store the flow rate in "Flow"
      Enter the outlet temperature into the display
      Press the Watt's key to run the program
      The watts should display

      Note: The flow, even though measured as a volumetric rate, closely equates to a mass flow rate at the temperature ranges involved (1 Liter H2O ˜ 1 Kg H2O)

       

      From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of chris jude
      Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 2:09 PM
      To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: calculating heat input

       

       

      Zym Bob,

      That was an amazingly helpful post.  I think that gives me the info I need to do some real sizing. 
      Thanks much,

      chris

       

      On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 7:19 PM, tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...> wrote:

       

      Chris,

      I think some boundary numbers and a rate might help you with your design. I did the calculations, and a if you had pure water in a theoretical potstill (no heat losses, and all vapor created condensed as product) a 1kW heater will produce .44 ml/sec, or 27 ml/min, or 1.59 liters per hour.

      If you had pure ethanol in that same still with the 1 kW element, you'd get 1.48 ml/sec, 88.7 ml/min, and 5.34 liters/per hour.

      Since anything you're likely to distill will be somewhere between pure water and pure ethanol, expect somewhere between 27 and 88 ml/minute, and much closer to the 27 than the 88. Also, as a potstill run progresses, your output will approach that 27 ml/min number, as the water % in your boiler goes up.

      If you're talking about a reflux still, however, you are NOT condensing all your vapor for product; most of the vapor is being condensed and sent back down the column. In fact, when you are equlibrating your reflux still run, all of the vapor goes back down and none of it comes out as product.

      If you are setting your reflux still for 90% reflux, then a 10 kW element will give exactly the same output as the 1 kW element in the potstill. The "other" 9 kW is removed from the system by the reflux condenser.

      I haven't even raised the issue of column diamter and vapor speed. For that issue, take a look at this page.
      http://homedistiller.org/theory/refluxdesign/diameter

      Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits




      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, chris jude wrote:
      >
      > Awesome, thanks for the info. Actually, I have that book, but haven't read
      > it in awhile. I will break it out and take a look.
      >
      > Thanks
      >
      >
      >

      > On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 10:32 PM, Bob Glicksman bobg542492@... wrote:
      >
      > > **


      > >
      > >
      > > 54/46 is for a 10% abv beer. Your's may differ, and of course, this is
      > > the minimum that is dictated by the physics of distillation. As mentioned
      > > below, you probably want more heat than the minimum, but not too much (see
      > > below here). You probably want to calculate latent heat of vaporization
      > > (LHV) based upon when you stop distillation, as the alcohol concentration
      > > will be a lot lower than where you start distillation in any batch still
      > > (an advantage of continuous distillation is that the alcohol concentration
      > > only varies between fermentation runs and not as a result of boiling off
      > > the beer into the distillation column, as with a batch still).
      > >
      > > It does not matter whether you have a pot still or a reflux column, as
      > > conservation of energy dictates that you have to remove the energy that you
      > > put in, regardless. Since the energy input is, at an absolute minimum, the
      > > energy to vaporize your beer, the latent heat of vaporization as well as
      > > the desired vaporization rate determines the minimum boiler heat. The more
      > > energy you put it, the faster the boil and thus the higher rate of
      > > vaporization. In a pot still, you can vaporize as fast as your condenser
      > > can remove the heat to re-liquify your distilled product. Conservation of
      > > energy again -- you must remove the energy that went in (the LHV of the
      > > vapors) via the condenser. In a packed column reflux still, you also have
      > > to consider not to put too great a volume of vapor into the column or else
      > > the vapors will rise too fast for effective fractionation in the packing.
      > > Likewise, too low a vaporization rate will be really, really slow.
      > >
      > > IMHO, everything that you need to know about distillation is contained
      > > in the book "The Compleat Distiller" by Nixon and McCaw. You can buy this
      > > book on Amazon.com or from The Amphora Society website. If you know enough
      > > to ask these questions, you should probably buy this book and digest it
      > > thoroughly. It will answer all of these questions and many, many more!
      > >
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----

      > > From: chris jude vegbenz300@...
      > > To: new_distillers new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Wed, Apr 17, 2013 12:28 pm
      > > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] calculating heat input
      > >
      > >
      > > Thanks. I'm doing pot distillation, and trying to properly size my
      > > boiler. Would it be safe to use the 54/46 ratio to get the latent heat
      > > of vaporization to calculate the btu's needed for distillation? Is there a
      > > rule of thumb number for btu's per lb. of alcohol?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >

      > > On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Bob Glicksman bobg542492@... wrote:
      > >
      > >> **


      > >>
      > >> It is only true at the beginning of a batch distillation. Since the
      > >> vapors are higher in alcohol than in the liquid, the remaining liquid in
      > >> the boiler becomes stripped of alcohol as the boiling progresses. That is
      > >> why you must monitor the temperature of the product vapor and increase the
      > >> reflux ratio as the main run progresses and then terminate it altogether
      > >> when you judge that you are at the tails of the run. So yes, you are
      > >> correct that you could increase the heat input from the absolute minimum as
      > >> the batch run progresses to prevent the vapor into the column from reducing
      > >> with time until it is too low for your production purposes. But you don't
      > >> need to increase the heat to the boiler if you can tolerate the reduction
      > >> in product takeoff. There is a fairly wide range of vapor volume and
      > >> speed that works well in any given packed column still and most batch
      > >> distillers seem OK with this.
      > >>
      > >> -----Original Message-----

      > >> From: chris jude vegbenz300@...
      > >> To: new_distillers new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
      > >> Sent: Wed, Apr 17, 2013 11:55 am
      > >> Subject: Re: [new_distillers] calculating heat input
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> Thanks for that response. With your example of 10% alc. beer, you say
      > >> the vapors are 54% ethanol and 46% water. Is that a number you could use
      > >> as a constant for the whole process, or are you having to overcome greater
      > >> latent heat from the beginning to the end of the batch distillation?
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>

      > >> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 1:44 PM, Bob Glicksman bobg542492@...wrote:
      > >>
      > >>> **


      > >>>
      > >>> The minimum heat that you need for distillation is the latent heat of

      > >>> vaporization of your *vaporized *beer (i.e. the heat energy carried


      > >>> into the distallation column). Thus, if your beer is 10% abv, the vapors
      > >>> are 54% ethanol and 46% water (ignoring all of the other stuff, which is
      > >>> small by comparison). Find the latent heat of vaporization of ethanol and
      > >>> of water, BY VOLUME, and factor these using the 54/46% numbers, above to

      > >>> give the *unrecoverable *energy of distillation.
      > >>>
      > >>> Note that this calculation is the *minimum *energy that is needed to


      > >>> distill. In general, you will need to put in more energy due to other
      > >>> factors, e.g.: imperfect insulation in the column, too few plates/low HEPT
      > >>> (necessitating higher than minimum reflux ratio), the "sensible heat"
      > >>> needed to raise the beer to the boiling point to begin with, etc. These
      > >>> other energy needs are, in theory, recoverable and/or avoidable, but the
      > >>> latent heat of vaporization of the beer is neither recoverable nor
      > >>> avoidable (you can recover this heat in the condenser(s) and use it
      > >>> elsewhere, e.g. for cooking the mash, but it cannot be recovered for
      > >>> distillation purposes because the temperature is the temperature of the
      > >>> vapors at the top of the column which is the boiling point of the distilled
      > >>> product and must necessarily be lower than the boiling point of the beer).
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>> -----Original Message-----

      > >>> From: chris jude vegbenz300@...
      > >>> To: new_distillers new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
      > >>> Sent: Wed, Apr 17, 2013 7:46 am
      > >>> Subject: [new_distillers] calculating heat input
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>> Hi,
      > >>>
      > >>> I'm trying to size a heater for a still. I know the calculation for
      > >>> raising the temperature of the wash up to boiling, but how can I calculate
      > >>> the heat input required for distillation? After the wash is up to the
      > >>> boiling point, is it just the latent heat of vaporization, and losses to
      > >>> atmosphere?
      > >>>
      > >>> Chris
      > >>>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >
      > >
      >

       

    • totallyanonymousemail18
      On that point, I m in the same process of heat input calibration. I ve got a fairly big boiler (55 gal 304SS) with 3 x 1 FPT fittings at the base: one is a
      Message 2 of 21 , Apr 22 3:15 PM
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        On that point, I'm in the same process of heat input calibration. I've got a fairly big boiler (55 gal 304SS) with 3 x 1" FPT fittings at the base: one is a ball valve for flushing, the other has a 4 KW element for heat up, and the last is for simmering/running. At first I had a 750 W element, but when I switched over, the temp in my column plummeted (neither boiler nor column are insulated right now, may be in the future, and I expect this will change my heat calcs). I went to 2 KW, and that was not quite enough to maintain a constant temp at the top of my column. So I thought that 2500 W would do it, and it did for a bit, yielding 5 drops/sec, but after only maybe 2 liters of product, it stopped. So from your response, I either need to dial down further on the reflux, or add some power during the process?

        Thanks

        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Bob Glicksman <bobg542492@...> wrote:
        >
        > It is only true at the beginning of a batch distillation. Since the vapors are higher in alcohol than in the liquid, the remaining liquid in the boiler becomes stripped of alcohol as the boiling progresses. That is why you must monitor the temperature of the product vapor and increase the reflux ratio as the main run progresses and then terminate it altogether when you judge that you are at the tails of the run. So yes, you are correct that you could increase the heat input from the absolute minimum as the batch run progresses to prevent the vapor into the column from reducing with time until it is too low for your production purposes. But you don't need to increase the heat to the boiler if you can tolerate the reduction in product takeoff. There is a fairly wide range of vapor volume and speed that works well in any given packed column still and most batch distillers seem OK with this.
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: chris jude <vegbenz300@...>
        > To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Wed, Apr 17, 2013 11:55 am
        > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] calculating heat input
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Thanks for that response. With your example of 10% alc. beer, you say the vapors are 54% ethanol and 46% water. Is that a number you could use as a constant for the whole process, or are you having to overcome greater latent heat from the beginning to the end of the batch distillation?
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 1:44 PM, Bob Glicksman <bobg542492@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > The minimum heat that you need for distillation is the latent heat of vaporization of your vaporized beer (i.e. the heat energy carried into the distallation column). Thus, if your beer is 10% abv, the vapors are 54% ethanol and 46% water (ignoring all of the other stuff, which is small by comparison). Find the latent heat of vaporization of ethanol and of water, BY VOLUME, and factor these using the 54/46% numbers, above to give the unrecoverable energy of distillation.
        >
        >
        > Note that this calculation is the minimum energy that is needed to distill. In general, you will need to put in more energy due to other factors, e.g.: imperfect insulation in the column, too few plates/low HEPT (necessitating higher than minimum reflux ratio), the "sensible heat" needed to raise the beer to the boiling point to begin with, etc. These other energy needs are, in theory, recoverable and/or avoidable, but the latent heat of vaporization of the beer is neither recoverable nor avoidable (you can recover this heat in the condenser(s) and use it elsewhere, e.g. for cooking the mash, but it cannot be recovered for distillation purposes because the temperature is the temperature of the vapors at the top of the column which is the boiling point of the distilled product and must necessarily be lower than the boiling point of the beer).
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: chris jude <vegbenz300@...>
        > To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Wed, Apr 17, 2013 7:46 am
        > Subject: [new_distillers] calculating heat input
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Hi,
        >
        >
        > I'm trying to size a heater for a still. I know the calculation for raising the temperature of the wash up to boiling, but how can I calculate the heat input required for distillation? After the wash is up to the boiling point, is it just the latent heat of vaporization, and losses to atmosphere?
        >
        >
        > Chris
        >
      • totallyanonymousemail18
        Z Bob, This helps much, Thank you. I see that I should probably have a reflux condenser that is more powerful than I have: inside my 50mm column, I have ~12
        Message 3 of 21 , Apr 22 3:26 PM
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          Z Bob,

          This helps much, Thank you. I see that I should probably have a reflux condenser that is more powerful than I have: inside my 50mm column, I have ~12" of double-wound coil at 3/8 in diameter. I couldn't wind 1/4 inch twice with out it flattening out. Then on the outside of the column I have a 1/4" coil soldered against the 50mm column. It seems powerful enough. However, 4 KW is enough to overpower the condenser and blow vapor out the top. and 2.5KW is fine for the condenser, but stopped my run about 20% of the way through. It may be that somewhere in between is the sweet spot, but it seems to be narrowing. 3 KW seems like an awful lot of power on 40 gallons of wash in a 55 gal. boiler on a 4.5 ft column.

          Thoughts?

          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
          >
          > Chris,
          >
          > I think some boundary numbers and a rate might help you with your
          > design. I did the calculations, and a if you had pure water in a
          > theoretical potstill (no heat losses, and all vapor created condensed as
          > product) a 1kW heater will produce .44 ml/sec, or 27 ml/min, or 1.59
          > liters per hour.
          >
          > If you had pure ethanol in that same still with the 1 kW element, you'd
          > get 1.48 ml/sec, 88.7 ml/min, and 5.34 liters/per hour.
          >
          > Since anything you're likely to distill will be somewhere between pure
          > water and pure ethanol, expect somewhere between 27 and 88 ml/minute,
          > and much closer to the 27 than the 88. Also, as a potstill run
          > progresses, your output will approach that 27 ml/min number, as the
          > water % in your boiler goes up.
          >
          > If you're talking about a reflux still, however, you are NOT condensing
          > all your vapor for product; most of the vapor is being condensed and
          > sent back down the column. In fact, when you are equlibrating your
          > reflux still run, all of the vapor goes back down and none of it comes
          > out as product.
          >
          > If you are setting your reflux still for 90% reflux, then a 10 kW
          > element will give exactly the same output as the 1 kW element in the
          > potstill. The "other" 9 kW is removed from the system by the reflux
          > condenser.
          >
          > I haven't even raised the issue of column diamter and vapor speed. For
          > that issue, take a look at this page.
          > http://homedistiller.org/theory/refluxdesign/diameter
          >
          > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
          > <http://www.kelleybarts.com/zymurgy-bob-books/making-fine-spirits/>
          >
          >
          > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, chris jude wrote:
          > >
          > > Awesome, thanks for the info. Actually, I have that book, but haven't
          > read
          > > it in awhile. I will break it out and take a look.
          > >
          > > Thanks
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 10:32 PM, Bob Glicksman bobg542492@ wrote:
          > >
          > > > **
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > 54/46 is for a 10% abv beer. Your's may differ, and of course, this
          > is
          > > > the minimum that is dictated by the physics of distillation. As
          > mentioned
          > > > below, you probably want more heat than the minimum, but not too
          > much (see
          > > > below here). You probably want to calculate latent heat of
          > vaporization
          > > > (LHV) based upon when you stop distillation, as the alcohol
          > concentration
          > > > will be a lot lower than where you start distillation in any batch
          > still
          > > > (an advantage of continuous distillation is that the alcohol
          > concentration
          > > > only varies between fermentation runs and not as a result of boiling
          > off
          > > > the beer into the distillation column, as with a batch still).
          > > >
          > > > It does not matter whether you have a pot still or a reflux column,
          > as
          > > > conservation of energy dictates that you have to remove the energy
          > that you
          > > > put in, regardless. Since the energy input is, at an absolute
          > minimum, the
          > > > energy to vaporize your beer, the latent heat of vaporization as
          > well as
          > > > the desired vaporization rate determines the minimum boiler heat.
          > The more
          > > > energy you put it, the faster the boil and thus the higher rate of
          > > > vaporization. In a pot still, you can vaporize as fast as your
          > condenser
          > > > can remove the heat to re-liquify your distilled product.
          > Conservation of
          > > > energy again -- you must remove the energy that went in (the LHV of
          > the
          > > > vapors) via the condenser. In a packed column reflux still, you
          > also have
          > > > to consider not to put too great a volume of vapor into the column
          > or else
          > > > the vapors will rise too fast for effective fractionation in the
          > packing.
          > > > Likewise, too low a vaporization rate will be really, really slow.
          > > >
          > > > IMHO, everything that you need to know about distillation is
          > contained
          > > > in the book "The Compleat Distiller" by Nixon and McCaw. You can
          > buy this
          > > > book on Amazon.com or from The Amphora Society website. If you know
          > enough
          > > > to ask these questions, you should probably buy this book and digest
          > it
          > > > thoroughly. It will answer all of these questions and many, many
          > more!
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > -----Original Message-----
          > > > From: chris jude vegbenz300@
          > > > To: new_distillers new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
          > > > Sent: Wed, Apr 17, 2013 12:28 pm
          > > > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] calculating heat input
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Thanks. I'm doing pot distillation, and trying to properly size
          > my
          > > > boiler. Would it be safe to use the 54/46 ratio to get the latent
          > heat
          > > > of vaporization to calculate the btu's needed for distillation? Is
          > there a
          > > > rule of thumb number for btu's per lb. of alcohol?
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Bob Glicksman bobg542492@ wrote:
          > > >
          > > >> **
          > > >>
          > > >> It is only true at the beginning of a batch distillation. Since
          > the
          > > >> vapors are higher in alcohol than in the liquid, the remaining
          > liquid in
          > > >> the boiler becomes stripped of alcohol as the boiling progresses.
          > That is
          > > >> why you must monitor the temperature of the product vapor and
          > increase the
          > > >> reflux ratio as the main run progresses and then terminate it
          > altogether
          > > >> when you judge that you are at the tails of the run. So yes, you
          > are
          > > >> correct that you could increase the heat input from the absolute
          > minimum as
          > > >> the batch run progresses to prevent the vapor into the column from
          > reducing
          > > >> with time until it is too low for your production purposes. But
          > you don't
          > > >> need to increase the heat to the boiler if you can tolerate the
          > reduction
          > > >> in product takeoff. There is a fairly wide range of vapor volume
          > and
          > > >> speed that works well in any given packed column still and most
          > batch
          > > >> distillers seem OK with this.
          > > >>
          > > >> -----Original Message-----
          > > >> From: chris jude vegbenz300@
          > > >> To: new_distillers new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
          > > >> Sent: Wed, Apr 17, 2013 11:55 am
          > > >> Subject: Re: [new_distillers] calculating heat input
          > > >>
          > > >>
          > > >> Thanks for that response. With your example of 10% alc. beer,
          > you say
          > > >> the vapors are 54% ethanol and 46% water. Is that a number you
          > could use
          > > >> as a constant for the whole process, or are you having to overcome
          > greater
          > > >> latent heat from the beginning to the end of the batch
          > distillation?
          > > >>
          > > >>
          > > >>
          > > >>
          > > >> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 1:44 PM, Bob Glicksman bobg542492@...:
          > > >>
          > > >>> **
          > > >>>
          > > >>> The minimum heat that you need for distillation is the latent
          > heat of
          > > >>> vaporization of your *vaporized *beer (i.e. the heat energy
          > carried
          > > >>> into the distallation column). Thus, if your beer is 10% abv, the
          > vapors
          > > >>> are 54% ethanol and 46% water (ignoring all of the other stuff,
          > which is
          > > >>> small by comparison). Find the latent heat of vaporization of
          > ethanol and
          > > >>> of water, BY VOLUME, and factor these using the 54/46% numbers,
          > above to
          > > >>> give the *unrecoverable *energy of distillation.
          > > >>>
          > > >>> Note that this calculation is the *minimum *energy that is needed
          > to
          > > >>> distill. In general, you will need to put in more energy due to
          > other
          > > >>> factors, e.g.: imperfect insulation in the column, too few
          > plates/low HEPT
          > > >>> (necessitating higher than minimum reflux ratio), the "sensible
          > heat"
          > > >>> needed to raise the beer to the boiling point to begin with, etc.
          > These
          > > >>> other energy needs are, in theory, recoverable and/or avoidable,
          > but the
          > > >>> latent heat of vaporization of the beer is neither recoverable nor
          > > >>> avoidable (you can recover this heat in the condenser(s) and use
          > it
          > > >>> elsewhere, e.g. for cooking the mash, but it cannot be recovered
          > for
          > > >>> distillation purposes because the temperature is the temperature
          > of the
          > > >>> vapors at the top of the column which is the boiling point of the
          > distilled
          > > >>> product and must necessarily be lower than the boiling point of
          > the beer).
          > > >>>
          > > >>>
          > > >>>
          > > >>> -----Original Message-----
          > > >>> From: chris jude vegbenz300@
          > > >>> To: new_distillers new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
          > > >>> Sent: Wed, Apr 17, 2013 7:46 am
          > > >>> Subject: [new_distillers] calculating heat input
          > > >>>
          > > >>>
          > > >>> Hi,
          > > >>>
          > > >>> I'm trying to size a heater for a still. I know the calculation
          > for
          > > >>> raising the temperature of the wash up to boiling, but how can I
          > calculate
          > > >>> the heat input required for distillation? After the wash is up to
          > the
          > > >>> boiling point, is it just the latent heat of vaporization, and
          > losses to
          > > >>> atmosphere?
          > > >>>
          > > >>> Chris
          > > >>>
          > > >>
          > > >>
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • Bob Glicksman
          I am wondering if the 2L product that you are getting are the foreshots and not ethanol. The foreshots have a lower boiling point than ethanol which suggests
          Message 4 of 21 , Apr 22 7:53 PM
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            I am wondering if the 2L product that you are getting are the foreshots and not ethanol.  The foreshots have a lower boiling point than ethanol which suggests (but doesn't guarantee) a lower latent heat of vaporization.  Question:  can you bring the column into equilibrium and get a temperature of the vapors at the top of the still of about 173 deg F (the bp of the 190+ proof ethanol)?  Make sure that you have slowly removed the foreshots and heads before going back to 100% reflux and reestablishing equilibrium in the column.  This is the main test -- if you can't get the vapor temp up to the bp of high proof ethanol, then you are either not puting in enough heat or have too much loss in your uninsulated column.  BTW - I have never heard of anyone actually getting good reflux distillation with an uninsulated column, so I'd strongly recommend that you do this first.  Also, check the plumb on the column and make sure that it is absolutely vertical.  I know of a number of cases where a few degrees off of vertical causes the reflux liquid to run down the sides of the column and not mix sufficiently with the ascending vapors in the packing, so that the whole fractionating action didn't happen at all.  And while you are at it, check your packing.  You didn't say what it was, but make sure that it is loose enough to get good vapor flow up the column and good mixing with decending liquid.
             
            Ultimately, you may need to increase the boiler heat but generally speaking, too much heat is worse than too little heat, as long as the still provides the product production rate and proof that you desire.  Afterall, whatever heat energy you put in has to be removed by the condenser(s).  Also, according the Nixon and McCaw, too much heat means too much vapor which means too much mass flowing into the reflux column which means a higher speed of vapors rizing up a fixed diameter column, all of which means not enough interaction of vapor and liquid in the column leading to low proof and waste of energy.
             
            Hope this helps ...
            -----Original Message-----
            From: totallyanonymousemail18 <totallyanonymousemail18@...>
            To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Mon, Apr 22, 2013 5:52 pm
            Subject: [new_distillers] Re: calculating heat input

             
            On that point, I'm in the same process of heat input calibration. I've got a fairly big boiler (55 gal 304SS) with 3 x 1" FPT fittings at the base: one is a ball valve for flushing, the other has a 4 KW element for heat up, and the last is for simmering/running. At first I had a 750 W element, but when I switched over, the temp in my column plummeted (neither boiler nor column are insulated right now, may be in the future, and I expect this will change my heat calcs). I went to 2 KW, and that was not quite enough to maintain a constant temp at the top of my column. So I thought that 2500 W would do it, and it did for a bit, yielding 5 drops/sec, but after only maybe 2 liters of product, it stopped. So from your response, I either need to dial down further on the reflux, or add some power during the process?

            Thanks

            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Bob Glicksman <bobg542492@...> wrote:
            >
            > It is only true at the beginning of a batch distillation. Since the vapors are higher in alcohol than in the liquid, the remaining liquid in the boiler becomes stripped of alcohol as the boiling progresses. That is why you must monitor the temperature of the product vapor and increase the reflux ratio as the main run progresses and then terminate it altogether when you judge that you are at the tails of the run. So yes, you are correct that you could increase the heat input from the absolute minimum as the batch run progresses to prevent the vapor into the column from reducing with time until it is too low for your production purposes. But you don't need to increase the heat to the boiler if you can tolerate the reduction in product takeoff. There is a fairly wide range of vapor volume and speed that works well in any given packed column still and most batch distillers seem OK with this.
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: chris jude <vegbenz300@...>
            > To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Wed, Apr 17, 2013 11:55 am
            > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] calculating heat input
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Thanks for that response. With your example of 10% alc. beer, you say the vapors are 54% ethanol and 46% water. Is that a number you could use as a constant for the whole process, or are you having to overcome greater latent heat from the beginning to the end of the batch distillation?
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 1:44 PM, Bob Glicksman <bobg542492@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > The minimum heat that you need for distillation is the latent heat of vaporization of your vaporized beer (i.e. the heat energy carried into the distallation column). Thus, if your beer is 10% abv, the vapors are 54% ethanol and 46% water (ignoring all of the other stuff, which is small by comparison). Find the latent heat of vaporization of ethanol and of water, BY VOLUME, and factor these using the 54/46% numbers, above to give the unrecoverable energy of distillation.
            >
            >
            > Note that this calculation is the minimum energy that is needed to distill. In general, you will need to put in more energy due to other factors, e.g.: imperfect insulation in the column, too few plates/low HEPT (necessitating higher than minimum reflux ratio), the "sensible heat" needed to raise the beer to the boiling point to begin with, etc. These other energy needs are, in theory, recoverable and/or avoidable, but the latent heat of vaporization of the beer is neither recoverable nor avoidable (you can recover this heat in the condenser(s) and use it elsewhere, e.g. for cooking the mash, but it cannot be recovered for distillation purposes because the temperature is the temperature of the vapors at the top of the column which is the boiling point of the distilled product and must necessarily be lower than the boiling point of the beer).
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: chris jude <vegbenz300@...>
            > To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Wed, Apr 17, 2013 7:46 am
            > Subject: [new_distillers] calculating heat input
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Hi,
            >
            >
            > I'm trying to size a heater for a still. I know the calculation for raising the temperature of the wash up to boiling, but how can I calculate the heat input required for distillation? After the wash is up to the boiling point, is it just the latent heat of vaporization, and losses to atmosphere?
            >
            >
            > Chris
            >

          • totallyanonymousemail18
            My column is packed with copper pot scrubbers. They may be to tightly packed; how to know? My column thermo is a Blichmann mechanical, and it read 170, maybe
            Message 5 of 21 , Apr 22 8:59 PM
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              My column is packed with copper pot scrubbers. They may be to tightly packed; how to know? My column thermo is a Blichmann mechanical, and it read 170, maybe 171. Also, do you have any suggestions on an insulation medium for a 2" column? There doesn't seem to be much ready-made for that diameter. Now the plumb on the column, that may be an issue. It is an open-head SS drum with an ever-so-slight crown when I screw down the ring; the 2" fitting is not smack in the center, but near the rim, so it might not be plumb down the center. That is something I'll check and kludge a solution to. I know that the 4 KW power is too much for my condenser, it gets overwhelmed. at 2.5, the base was as hot as the rest, but the top was cool.

              You've given me some things to think on and check. I built my column as a modular system, so that I can lengthen/shorten the column and use different reflux condensers for different applications; I may need to fabricate a more powerful reflux condenser.

              Thanks again for the tips.

              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Bob Glicksman <bobg542492@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > I am wondering if the 2L product that you are getting are the foreshots and not ethanol. The foreshots have a lower boiling point than ethanol which suggests (but doesn't guarantee) a lower latent heat of vaporization. Question: can you bring the column into equilibrium and get a temperature of the vapors at the top of the still of about 173 deg F (the bp of the 190+ proof ethanol)? Make sure that you have slowly removed the foreshots and heads before going back to 100% reflux and reestablishing equilibrium in the column. This is the main test -- if you can't get the vapor temp up to the bp of high proof ethanol, then you are either not puting in enough heat or have too much loss in your uninsulated column. BTW - I have never heard of anyone actually getting good reflux distillation with an uninsulated column, so I'd strongly recommend that you do this first. Also, check the plumb on the column and make sure that it is absolutely vertical. I know of a number of cases where a few degrees off of vertical causes the reflux liquid to run down the sides of the column and not mix sufficiently with the ascending vapors in the packing, so that the whole fractionating action didn't happen at all. And while you are at it, check your packing. You didn't say what it was, but make sure that it is loose enough to get good vapor flow up the column and good mixing with decending liquid.
              >
              > Ultimately, you may need to increase the boiler heat but generally speaking, too much heat is worse than too little heat, as long as the still provides the product production rate and proof that you desire. Afterall, whatever heat energy you put in has to be removed by the condenser(s). Also, according the Nixon and McCaw, too much heat means too much vapor which means too much mass flowing into the reflux column which means a higher speed of vapors rizing up a fixed diameter column, all of which means not enough interaction of vapor and liquid in the column leading to low proof and waste of energy.
              >
              > Hope this helps ...
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: totallyanonymousemail18 <totallyanonymousemail18@...>
              > To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Mon, Apr 22, 2013 5:52 pm
              > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: calculating heat input
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > On that point, I'm in the same process of heat input calibration. I've got a fairly big boiler (55 gal 304SS) with 3 x 1" FPT fittings at the base: one is a ball valve for flushing, the other has a 4 KW element for heat up, and the last is for simmering/running. At first I had a 750 W element, but when I switched over, the temp in my column plummeted (neither boiler nor column are insulated right now, may be in the future, and I expect this will change my heat calcs). I went to 2 KW, and that was not quite enough to maintain a constant temp at the top of my column. So I thought that 2500 W would do it, and it did for a bit, yielding 5 drops/sec, but after only maybe 2 liters of product, it stopped. So from your response, I either need to dial down further on the reflux, or add some power during the process?
              >
              > Thanks
              >
              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Bob Glicksman <bobg542492@> wrote:
              > >
              > > It is only true at the beginning of a batch distillation. Since the vapors are higher in alcohol than in the liquid, the remaining liquid in the boiler becomes stripped of alcohol as the boiling progresses. That is why you must monitor the temperature of the product vapor and increase the reflux ratio as the main run progresses and then terminate it altogether when you judge that you are at the tails of the run. So yes, you are correct that you could increase the heat input from the absolute minimum as the batch run progresses to prevent the vapor into the column from reducing with time until it is too low for your production purposes. But you don't need to increase the heat to the boiler if you can tolerate the reduction in product takeoff. There is a fairly wide range of vapor volume and speed that works well in any given packed column still and most batch distillers seem OK with this.
              > >
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: chris jude <vegbenz300@>
              > > To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Wed, Apr 17, 2013 11:55 am
              > > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] calculating heat input
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Thanks for that response. With your example of 10% alc. beer, you say the vapors are 54% ethanol and 46% water. Is that a number you could use as a constant for the whole process, or are you having to overcome greater latent heat from the beginning to the end of the batch distillation?
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 1:44 PM, Bob Glicksman <bobg542492@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > The minimum heat that you need for distillation is the latent heat of vaporization of your vaporized beer (i.e. the heat energy carried into the distallation column). Thus, if your beer is 10% abv, the vapors are 54% ethanol and 46% water (ignoring all of the other stuff, which is small by comparison). Find the latent heat of vaporization of ethanol and of water, BY VOLUME, and factor these using the 54/46% numbers, above to give the unrecoverable energy of distillation.
              > >
              > >
              > > Note that this calculation is the minimum energy that is needed to distill. In general, you will need to put in more energy due to other factors, e.g.: imperfect insulation in the column, too few plates/low HEPT (necessitating higher than minimum reflux ratio), the "sensible heat" needed to raise the beer to the boiling point to begin with, etc. These other energy needs are, in theory, recoverable and/or avoidable, but the latent heat of vaporization of the beer is neither recoverable nor avoidable (you can recover this heat in the condenser(s) and use it elsewhere, e.g. for cooking the mash, but it cannot be recovered for distillation purposes because the temperature is the temperature of the vapors at the top of the column which is the boiling point of the distilled product and must necessarily be lower than the boiling point of the beer).
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: chris jude <vegbenz300@>
              > > To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Wed, Apr 17, 2013 7:46 am
              > > Subject: [new_distillers] calculating heat input
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Hi,
              > >
              > >
              > > I'm trying to size a heater for a still. I know the calculation for raising the temperature of the wash up to boiling, but how can I calculate the heat input required for distillation? After the wash is up to the boiling point, is it just the latent heat of vaporization, and losses to atmosphere?
              > >
              > >
              > > Chris
              > >
              >
            • Bob Glicksman
              The scrubbers should not be compressed when you are packing your column with them. They shoudl fill the column but not forced into it. The column should be
              Message 6 of 21 , Apr 23 9:39 AM
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                The scrubbers should not be compressed when you are packing your column with them.  They shoudl fill the column but not forced into it.  The column should be operating at atmospheric pressure only - no pressure buildup under the packing or anywhere else.  When the column reaches equilibrium, (by definition) any vapor leaving the boiler should appear at the top of the packing (below the reflux condenser).  I don't know if you have any way to observe or measure any of this, but if you do, it would help to understand what is happening.

                There should be vapor coming off of the boiler -- if not, you don't have enough heat going into the boiler (obviously).  It is a good idea to insulate the boiler as well, as heat loss in your big boiler may exceed the heat input and you then have no vapor into the column.  But if you do have vapor going into the column, it must ascend through the packing to be liquified by the condenser(s).  A distillation column will ordinarily store some mass in the packing or plates, but after it reaches equilibrium, this storage is saturated and the column can store no more.  Conservation of mass dictates that what goes in must come out, so there must be vapor to condense.  If there is, but you are getting no product, then (obviously) the reflux ratio is too high (100%) and you can slowly reduce it until you get some product takeoff.  The vapor temperature will tell you the proof of your product. 

                I would follow Nixon and McCaws procedure:  set the reflux ratio to 100% and allow the column to come into equilibrium, which may take some time (hours).  The temperature of the product vapors will stabilize when the column is in equilibrium.  Then slowly decrease the reflux ratio to obtain product, making sure that the column remains in equilibrium as you do so (by continuing to carefully observe the temperature at the top of the packing).

                The only way that you can stop getting vapor at the top of the packing is if you stop putting vapor into the column, or if there is heat loss from the column.  In the latter case, the vapor is condensing in the packing and not reaching the condenser above the packing.  This is why the column must be insulated.   Ideally, the only place that latent heat of vaporization should be removed from the column (to condense vapor back into liquid) is via the condenser(s).

                I don't know of ready made insulation to wrap a 2" diameter column, but you can certainly get pipe wrapping insulation or bats of insulation for wrapping water heaters from any hardware store and wrap your column with this stuff.  You don't need to go overboard - the still will (must) work in an imperfect world.  You just need enough to ensure that the column can reach equilibrium and be kept there.


                -----Original Message-----
                From: totallyanonymousemail18 <totallyanonymousemail18@...>
                To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tue, Apr 23, 2013 6:42 am
                Subject: [new_distillers] Re: calculating heat input

                 
                My column is packed with copper pot scrubbers. They may be to tightly packed; how to know? My column thermo is a Blichmann mechanical, and it read 170, maybe 171. Also, do you have any suggestions on an insulation medium for a 2" column? There doesn't seem to be much ready-made for that diameter. Now the plumb on the column, that may be an issue. It is an open-head SS drum with an ever-so-slight crown when I screw down the ring; the 2" fitting is not smack in the center, but near the rim, so it might not be plumb down the center. That is something I'll check and kludge a solution to. I know that the 4 KW power is too much for my condenser, it gets overwhelmed. at 2.5, the base was as hot as the rest, but the top was cool.

                You've given me some things to think on and check. I built my column as a modular system, so that I can lengthen/shorten the column and use different reflux condensers for different applications; I may need to fabricate a more powerful reflux condenser.

                Thanks again for the tips.

                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Bob Glicksman <bobg542492@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > I am wondering if the 2L product that you are getting are the foreshots and not ethanol. The foreshots have a lower boiling point than ethanol which suggests (but doesn't guarantee) a lower latent heat of vaporization. Question: can you bring the column into equilibrium and get a temperature of the vapors at the top of the still of about 173 deg F (the bp of the 190+ proof ethanol)? Make sure that you have slowly removed the foreshots and heads before going back to 100% reflux and reestablishing equilibrium in the column. This is the main test -- if you can't get the vapor temp up to the bp of high proof ethanol, then you are either not puting in enough heat or have too much loss in your uninsulated column. BTW - I have never heard of anyone actually getting good reflux distillation with an uninsulated column, so I'd strongly recommend that you do this first. Also, check the plumb on the column and make sure that it is absolutely vertical. I know of a number of cases where a few degrees off of vertical causes the reflux liquid to run down the sides of the column and not mix sufficiently with the ascending vapors in the packing, so that the whole fractionating action didn't happen at all. And while you are at it, check your packing. You didn't say what it was, but make sure that it is loose enough to get good vapor flow up the column and good mixing with decending liquid.
                >
                > Ultimately, you may need to increase the boiler heat but generally speaking, too much heat is worse than too little heat, as long as the still provides the product production rate and proof that you desire. Afterall, whatever heat energy you put in has to be removed by the condenser(s). Also, according the Nixon and McCaw, too much heat means too much vapor which means too much mass flowing into the reflux column which means a higher speed of vapors rizing up a fixed diameter column, all of which means not enough interaction of vapor and liquid in the column leading to low proof and waste of energy.
                >
                > Hope this helps ...
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: totallyanonymousemail18 <totallyanonymousemail18@...>
                > To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Mon, Apr 22, 2013 5:52 pm
                > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: calculating heat input
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > On that point, I'm in the same process of heat input calibration. I've got a fairly big boiler (55 gal 304SS) with 3 x 1" FPT fittings at the base: one is a ball valve for flushing, the other has a 4 KW element for heat up, and the last is for simmering/running. At first I had a 750 W element, but when I switched over, the temp in my column plummeted (neither boiler nor column are insulated right now, may be in the future, and I expect this will change my heat calcs). I went to 2 KW, and that was not quite enough to maintain a constant temp at the top of my column. So I thought that 2500 W would do it, and it did for a bit, yielding 5 drops/sec, but after only maybe 2 liters of product, it stopped. So from your response, I either need to dial down further on the reflux, or add some power during the process?
                >
                > Thanks
                >
                > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Bob Glicksman <bobg542492@> wrote:
                > >
                > > It is only true at the beginning of a batch distillation. Since the vapors are higher in alcohol than in the liquid, the remaining liquid in the boiler becomes stripped of alcohol as the boiling progresses. That is why you must monitor the temperature of the product vapor and increase the reflux ratio as the main run progresses and then terminate it altogether when you judge that you are at the tails of the run. So yes, you are correct that you could increase the heat input from the absolute minimum as the batch run progresses to prevent the vapor into the column from reducing with time until it is too low for your production purposes. But you don't need to increase the heat to the boiler if you can tolerate the reduction in product takeoff. There is a fairly wide range of vapor volume and speed that works well in any given packed column still and most batch distillers seem OK with this.
                > >
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: chris jude <vegbenz300@>
                > > To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Wed, Apr 17, 2013 11:55 am
                > > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] calculating heat input
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Thanks for that response. With your example of 10% alc. beer, you say the vapors are 54% ethanol and 46% water. Is that a number you could use as a constant for the whole process, or are you having to overcome greater latent heat from the beginning to the end of the batch distillation?
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 1:44 PM, Bob Glicksman <bobg542492@> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > The minimum heat that you need for distillation is the latent heat of vaporization of your vaporized beer (i.e. the heat energy carried into the distallation column). Thus, if your beer is 10% abv, the vapors are 54% ethanol and 46% water (ignoring all of the other stuff, which is small by comparison). Find the latent heat of vaporization of ethanol and of water, BY VOLUME, and factor these using the 54/46% numbers, above to give the unrecoverable energy of distillation.
                > >
                > >
                > > Note that this calculation is the minimum energy that is needed to distill. In general, you will need to put in more energy due to other factors, e.g.: imperfect insulation in the column, too few plates/low HEPT (necessitating higher than minimum reflux ratio), the "sensible heat" needed to raise the beer to the boiling point to begin with, etc. These other energy needs are, in theory, recoverable and/or avoidable, but the latent heat of vaporization of the beer is neither recoverable nor avoidable (you can recover this heat in the condenser(s) and use it elsewhere, e.g. for cooking the mash, but it cannot be recovered for distillation purposes because the temperature is the temperature of the vapors at the top of the column which is the boiling point of the distilled product and must necessarily be lower than the boiling point of the beer).
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: chris jude <vegbenz300@>
                > > To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Wed, Apr 17, 2013 7:46 am
                > > Subject: [new_distillers] calculating heat input
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Hi,
                > >
                > >
                > > I'm trying to size a heater for a still. I know the calculation for raising the temperature of the wash up to boiling, but how can I calculate the heat input required for distillation? After the wash is up to the boiling point, is it just the latent heat of vaporization, and losses to atmosphere?
                > >
                > >
                > > Chris
                > >
                >

              • allibugger
                To insulate my 2 column I bought 2 pices of 1 pipe insulation from Home Depot, Split them vertically and then butted the pieces together and let them overlap
                Message 7 of 21 , Apr 23 10:50 AM
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                • 0 Attachment
                  To insulate my 2" column I bought 2 pices of 1" pipe insulation from Home Depot, Split them vertically and then butted the pieces together and let them overlap around the column. I duct taped them together and they work like a charm.

                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Bob Glicksman <bobg542492@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > The scrubbers should not be compressed when you are packing your column with them. They shoudl fill the column but not forced into it. The column should be operating at atmospheric pressure only - no pressure buildup under the packing or anywhere else. When the column reaches equilibrium, (by definition) any vapor leaving the boiler should appear at the top of the packing (below the reflux condenser). I don't know if you have any way to observe or measure any of this, but if you do, it would help to understand what is happening.
                  >
                  >
                  > There should be vapor coming off of the boiler -- if not, you don't have enough heat going into the boiler (obviously). It is a good idea to insulate the boiler as well, as heat loss in your big boiler may exceed the heat input and you then have no vapor into the column. But if you do have vapor going into the column, it must ascend through the packing to be liquified by the condenser(s). A distillation column will ordinarily store some mass in the packing or plates, but after it reaches equilibrium, this storage is saturated and the column can store no more. Conservation of mass dictates that what goes in must come out, so there must be vapor to condense. If there is, but you are getting no product, then (obviously) the reflux ratio is too high (100%) and you can slowly reduce it until you get some product takeoff. The vapor temperature will tell you the proof of your product.
                  >
                  >
                  > I would follow Nixon and McCaws procedure: set the reflux ratio to 100% and allow the column to come into equilibrium, which may take some time (hours). The temperature of the product vapors will stabilize when the column is in equilibrium. Then slowly decrease the reflux ratio to obtain product, making sure that the column remains in equilibrium as you do so (by continuing to carefully observe the temperature at the top of the packing).
                  >
                  >
                  > The only way that you can stop getting vapor at the top of the packing is if you stop putting vapor into the column, or if there is heat loss from the column. In the latter case, the vapor is condensing in the packing and not reaching the condenser above the packing. This is why the column must be insulated. Ideally, the only place that latent heat of vaporization should be removed from the column (to condense vapor back into liquid) is via the condenser(s).
                  >
                  >
                  > I don't know of ready made insulation to wrap a 2" diameter column, but you can certainly get pipe wrapping insulation or bats of insulation for wrapping water heaters from any hardware store and wrap your column with this stuff. You don't need to go overboard - the still will (must) work in an imperfect world. You just need enough to ensure that the column can reach equilibrium and be kept there.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: totallyanonymousemail18 <totallyanonymousemail18@...>
                  > To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Tue, Apr 23, 2013 6:42 am
                  > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: calculating heat input
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > My column is packed with copper pot scrubbers. They may be to tightly packed; how to know? My column thermo is a Blichmann mechanical, and it read 170, maybe 171. Also, do you have any suggestions on an insulation medium for a 2" column? There doesn't seem to be much ready-made for that diameter. Now the plumb on the column, that may be an issue. It is an open-head SS drum with an ever-so-slight crown when I screw down the ring; the 2" fitting is not smack in the center, but near the rim, so it might not be plumb down the center. That is something I'll check and kludge a solution to. I know that the 4 KW power is too much for my condenser, it gets overwhelmed. at 2.5, the base was as hot as the rest, but the top was cool.
                  >
                  > You've given me some things to think on and check. I built my column as a modular system, so that I can lengthen/shorten the column and use different reflux condensers for different applications; I may need to fabricate a more powerful reflux condenser.
                  >
                  > Thanks again for the tips.
                  >
                  > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Bob Glicksman <bobg542492@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I am wondering if the 2L product that you are getting are the foreshots and not ethanol. The foreshots have a lower boiling point than ethanol which suggests (but doesn't guarantee) a lower latent heat of vaporization. Question: can you bring the column into equilibrium and get a temperature of the vapors at the top of the still of about 173 deg F (the bp of the 190+ proof ethanol)? Make sure that you have slowly removed the foreshots and heads before going back to 100% reflux and reestablishing equilibrium in the column. This is the main test -- if you can't get the vapor temp up to the bp of high proof ethanol, then you are either not puting in enough heat or have too much loss in your uninsulated column. BTW - I have never heard of anyone actually getting good reflux distillation with an uninsulated column, so I'd strongly recommend that you do this first. Also, check the plumb on the column and make sure that it is absolutely vertical. I know of a number of cases where a few degrees off of vertical causes the reflux liquid to run down the sides of the column and not mix sufficiently with the ascending vapors in the packing, so that the whole fractionating action didn't happen at all. And while you are at it, check your packing. You didn't say what it was, but make sure that it is loose enough to get good vapor flow up the column and good mixing with decending liquid.
                  > >
                  > > Ultimately, you may need to increase the boiler heat but generally speaking, too much heat is worse than too little heat, as long as the still provides the product production rate and proof that you desire. Afterall, whatever heat energy you put in has to be removed by the condenser(s). Also, according the Nixon and McCaw, too much heat means too much vapor which means too much mass flowing into the reflux column which means a higher speed of vapors rizing up a fixed diameter column, all of which means not enough interaction of vapor and liquid in the column leading to low proof and waste of energy.
                  > >
                  > > Hope this helps ...
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: totallyanonymousemail18 <totallyanonymousemail18@>
                  > > To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Mon, Apr 22, 2013 5:52 pm
                  > > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: calculating heat input
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > On that point, I'm in the same process of heat input calibration. I've got a fairly big boiler (55 gal 304SS) with 3 x 1" FPT fittings at the base: one is a ball valve for flushing, the other has a 4 KW element for heat up, and the last is for simmering/running. At first I had a 750 W element, but when I switched over, the temp in my column plummeted (neither boiler nor column are insulated right now, may be in the future, and I expect this will change my heat calcs). I went to 2 KW, and that was not quite enough to maintain a constant temp at the top of my column. So I thought that 2500 W would do it, and it did for a bit, yielding 5 drops/sec, but after only maybe 2 liters of product, it stopped. So from your response, I either need to dial down further on the reflux, or add some power during the process?
                  > >
                  > > Thanks
                  > >
                  > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Bob Glicksman <bobg542492@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > It is only true at the beginning of a batch distillation. Since the vapors are higher in alcohol than in the liquid, the remaining liquid in the boiler becomes stripped of alcohol as the boiling progresses. That is why you must monitor the temperature of the product vapor and increase the reflux ratio as the main run progresses and then terminate it altogether when you judge that you are at the tails of the run. So yes, you are correct that you could increase the heat input from the absolute minimum as the batch run progresses to prevent the vapor into the column from reducing with time until it is too low for your production purposes. But you don't need to increase the heat to the boiler if you can tolerate the reduction in product takeoff. There is a fairly wide range of vapor volume and speed that works well in any given packed column still and most batch distillers seem OK with this.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > From: chris jude <vegbenz300@>
                  > > > To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > Sent: Wed, Apr 17, 2013 11:55 am
                  > > > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] calculating heat input
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks for that response. With your example of 10% alc. beer, you say the vapors are 54% ethanol and 46% water. Is that a number you could use as a constant for the whole process, or are you having to overcome greater latent heat from the beginning to the end of the batch distillation?
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 1:44 PM, Bob Glicksman <bobg542492@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > The minimum heat that you need for distillation is the latent heat of vaporization of your vaporized beer (i.e. the heat energy carried into the distallation column). Thus, if your beer is 10% abv, the vapors are 54% ethanol and 46% water (ignoring all of the other stuff, which is small by comparison). Find the latent heat of vaporization of ethanol and of water, BY VOLUME, and factor these using the 54/46% numbers, above to give the unrecoverable energy of distillation.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Note that this calculation is the minimum energy that is needed to distill. In general, you will need to put in more energy due to other factors, e.g.: imperfect insulation in the column, too few plates/low HEPT (necessitating higher than minimum reflux ratio), the "sensible heat" needed to raise the beer to the boiling point to begin with, etc. These other energy needs are, in theory, recoverable and/or avoidable, but the latent heat of vaporization of the beer is neither recoverable nor avoidable (you can recover this heat in the condenser(s) and use it elsewhere, e.g. for cooking the mash, but it cannot be recovered for distillation purposes because the temperature is the temperature of the vapors at the top of the column which is the boiling point of the distilled product and must necessarily be lower than the boiling point of the beer).
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > From: chris jude <vegbenz300@>
                  > > > To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > Sent: Wed, Apr 17, 2013 7:46 am
                  > > > Subject: [new_distillers] calculating heat input
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Hi,
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > I'm trying to size a heater for a still. I know the calculation for raising the temperature of the wash up to boiling, but how can I calculate the heat input required for distillation? After the wash is up to the boiling point, is it just the latent heat of vaporization, and losses to atmosphere?
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Chris
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Brendan Keith
                  Foil-backed bubble wrap, for water heaters, is very good for columns and electrically heated boilers. -- Brendan Keith bkeith@sympatico.ca ... From:
                  Message 8 of 21 , Apr 23 11:01 AM
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                    Message
                    Foil-backed bubble wrap, for water heaters, is very good for columns and electrically heated boilers.
                     

                    --

                    Brendan Keith

                    bkeith@...

                     

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of allibugger
                    Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 1:51 PM
                    To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [new_distillers] Re: calculating heat input

                     

                    To insulate my 2" column I bought 2 pices of 1" pipe insulation from Home Depot, Split them vertically and then butted the pieces together and let them overlap around the column. I duct taped them together and they work like a charm.

                  • chris jude
                    For pipe insulation there s a number of choices at McMaster: http://www.mcmaster.com/#pipe-insulation/=mg5uk3 Otherwise you should be able to get something
                    Message 9 of 21 , Apr 23 11:06 AM
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                      For pipe insulation there's a number of choices at McMaster:
                      http://www.mcmaster.com/#pipe-insulation/=mg5uk3

                      Otherwise you should be able to get something from a local plumbing supply house.  Just make sure it can handle up to 212 F. 





                      On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 11:59 PM, totallyanonymousemail18 <totallyanonymousemail18@...> wrote:
                       

                      My column is packed with copper pot scrubbers. They may be to tightly packed; how to know? My column thermo is a Blichmann mechanical, and it read 170, maybe 171. Also, do you have any suggestions on an insulation medium for a 2" column? There doesn't seem to be much ready-made for that diameter. Now the plumb on the column, that may be an issue. It is an open-head SS drum with an ever-so-slight crown when I screw down the ring; the 2" fitting is not smack in the center, but near the rim, so it might not be plumb down the center. That is something I'll check and kludge a solution to. I know that the 4 KW power is too much for my condenser, it gets overwhelmed. at 2.5, the base was as hot as the rest, but the top was cool.

                      You've given me some things to think on and check. I built my column as a modular system, so that I can lengthen/shorten the column and use different reflux condensers for different applications; I may need to fabricate a more powerful reflux condenser.

                      Thanks again for the tips.



                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Bob Glicksman <bobg542492@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > I am wondering if the 2L product that you are getting are the foreshots and not ethanol. The foreshots have a lower boiling point than ethanol which suggests (but doesn't guarantee) a lower latent heat of vaporization. Question: can you bring the column into equilibrium and get a temperature of the vapors at the top of the still of about 173 deg F (the bp of the 190+ proof ethanol)? Make sure that you have slowly removed the foreshots and heads before going back to 100% reflux and reestablishing equilibrium in the column. This is the main test -- if you can't get the vapor temp up to the bp of high proof ethanol, then you are either not puting in enough heat or have too much loss in your uninsulated column. BTW - I have never heard of anyone actually getting good reflux distillation with an uninsulated column, so I'd strongly recommend that you do this first. Also, check the plumb on the column and make sure that it is absolutely vertical. I know of a number of cases where a few degrees off of vertical causes the reflux liquid to run down the sides of the column and not mix sufficiently with the ascending vapors in the packing, so that the whole fractionating action didn't happen at all. And while you are at it, check your packing. You didn't say what it was, but make sure that it is loose enough to get good vapor flow up the column and good mixing with decending liquid.
                      >
                      > Ultimately, you may need to increase the boiler heat but generally speaking, too much heat is worse than too little heat, as long as the still provides the product production rate and proof that you desire. Afterall, whatever heat energy you put in has to be removed by the condenser(s). Also, according the Nixon and McCaw, too much heat means too much vapor which means too much mass flowing into the reflux column which means a higher speed of vapors rizing up a fixed diameter column, all of which means not enough interaction of vapor and liquid in the column leading to low proof and waste of energy.
                      >
                      > Hope this helps ...
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: totallyanonymousemail18 <totallyanonymousemail18@...>
                      > To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Mon, Apr 22, 2013 5:52 pm
                      > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: calculating heat input
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > On that point, I'm in the same process of heat input calibration. I've got a fairly big boiler (55 gal 304SS) with 3 x 1" FPT fittings at the base: one is a ball valve for flushing, the other has a 4 KW element for heat up, and the last is for simmering/running. At first I had a 750 W element, but when I switched over, the temp in my column plummeted (neither boiler nor column are insulated right now, may be in the future, and I expect this will change my heat calcs). I went to 2 KW, and that was not quite enough to maintain a constant temp at the top of my column. So I thought that 2500 W would do it, and it did for a bit, yielding 5 drops/sec, but after only maybe 2 liters of product, it stopped. So from your response, I either need to dial down further on the reflux, or add some power during the process?
                      >
                      > Thanks
                      >
                      > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Bob Glicksman <bobg542492@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > It is only true at the beginning of a batch distillation. Since the vapors are higher in alcohol than in the liquid, the remaining liquid in the boiler becomes stripped of alcohol as the boiling progresses. That is why you must monitor the temperature of the product vapor and increase the reflux ratio as the main run progresses and then terminate it altogether when you judge that you are at the tails of the run. So yes, you are correct that you could increase the heat input from the absolute minimum as the batch run progresses to prevent the vapor into the column from reducing with time until it is too low for your production purposes. But you don't need to increase the heat to the boiler if you can tolerate the reduction in product takeoff. There is a fairly wide range of vapor volume and speed that works well in any given packed column still and most batch distillers seem OK with this.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > From: chris jude <vegbenz300@>
                      > > To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > Sent: Wed, Apr 17, 2013 11:55 am
                      > > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] calculating heat input
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Thanks for that response. With your example of 10% alc. beer, you say the vapors are 54% ethanol and 46% water. Is that a number you could use as a constant for the whole process, or are you having to overcome greater latent heat from the beginning to the end of the batch distillation?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 1:44 PM, Bob Glicksman <bobg542492@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > The minimum heat that you need for distillation is the latent heat of vaporization of your vaporized beer (i.e. the heat energy carried into the distallation column). Thus, if your beer is 10% abv, the vapors are 54% ethanol and 46% water (ignoring all of the other stuff, which is small by comparison). Find the latent heat of vaporization of ethanol and of water, BY VOLUME, and factor these using the 54/46% numbers, above to give the unrecoverable energy of distillation.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Note that this calculation is the minimum energy that is needed to distill. In general, you will need to put in more energy due to other factors, e.g.: imperfect insulation in the column, too few plates/low HEPT (necessitating higher than minimum reflux ratio), the "sensible heat" needed to raise the beer to the boiling point to begin with, etc. These other energy needs are, in theory, recoverable and/or avoidable, but the latent heat of vaporization of the beer is neither recoverable nor avoidable (you can recover this heat in the condenser(s) and use it elsewhere, e.g. for cooking the mash, but it cannot be recovered for distillation purposes because the temperature is the temperature of the vapors at the top of the column which is the boiling point of the distilled product and must necessarily be lower than the boiling point of the beer).
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > From: chris jude <vegbenz300@>
                      > > To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > Sent: Wed, Apr 17, 2013 7:46 am
                      > > Subject: [new_distillers] calculating heat input
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Hi,
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I'm trying to size a heater for a still. I know the calculation for raising the temperature of the wash up to boiling, but how can I calculate the heat input required for distillation? After the wash is up to the boiling point, is it just the latent heat of vaporization, and losses to atmosphere?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Chris
                      > >
                      >


                    • geoff
                      Hi, I,m pretty new to this hobby. (2months) I have a homemade 5 gallon (U.K) Boka reflux its only a metre high (39 inches) and 46mm diameter (nearly 2
                      Message 10 of 21 , Apr 24 10:22 AM
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                        Hi, I,m pretty new to this hobby. (2months) I have a homemade 5 gallon (U.K) Boka reflux its only a metre high (39 inches) and 46mm diameter (nearly 2 inches). The boiler is a 3Kw urn used for making hot drinks (thermostat controlled). From the outset i had to come up with a way of controlling the power input. I just used a triac controller you can get them on e-bay and amazon for about £12 (usd 20) generally from China.With this i have almost infinite adjustment of power input. During the reflux after full on heat up to boil i drop the power to 800Watts which gives me the right velocity for good reflux I get 92% ABV with a 25% take off, as things progress I have to slowly(over 10 hours) turn the watts up to 1600 (ABV drops to 88%) also reducing the take off rate.So what I am saying is that its good to know all the technical heat calcs for the boiling mix, its not necessary to know this (i Didnt) to get acceptable performance. Basically biggest heater you can power from your suppy(fast boil) and a cheap triac controller. Just search on heat input or triac controller.

                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, chris jude <vegbenz300@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > For pipe insulation there's a number of choices at McMaster:
                        > http://www.mcmaster.com/#pipe-insulation/=mg5uk3
                        >
                        > Otherwise you should be able to get something from a local plumbing supply
                        > house. Just make sure it can handle up to 212 F.
                        >
                      • DarkGreyMatter
                        And hidden there, in all that heat input, is a huge indicator of the inefficiency of typical pot-stilling experience: To get (alcoholic) vapour of any %ABV out
                        Message 11 of 21 , Mar 20
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                          And hidden there, in all that heat input, is a huge indicator of the inefficiency of typical pot-stilling experience:

                          To get (alcoholic) vapour of any %ABV out of the top of a still, the entire contents of the pot first need to be heated up to BP. Then more heat is needed to vaporise anything you want to travel upwards!
                          Careful study of Langmuir's Equation (you know, that Nobel Laureate physicist fellow.....) shows that no boiling, at all, is actually necessary if the energy input is properly managed.

                          But to keep things simple.......let's assume that the output must be condensed (the inverse of boiling) from vapor, so we'll allow that portion of the wash to be considered "boiled" - but not the rest.
                          (The bulk of the wash merely needs to be raised to boiling point to ensure free evaporation of the desired alcohol molecules, into the vapor phase and out of the liquid phase. All of them.)

                          Any heat put into the non-alcoholic portion of the wash is ejected as effluent (From stills of ANY design regime) and so is all of the heat energy it contains!

                          And there's the key...... in a Smart Still, that "waste heat" can be used to preheat the wash up to it's boiling point, so that it is at the ideal (vaporisation) temperature the instant any further heat is applied.

                          The wisest amongst you all might have by now realised that the only way to get all of the alcohol out of a pot still charge is to heat all of that charge up to the boiling point of water.
                          Because the boiling point only slowly migrates upwards in a pot still (as the alcohol boils off) this takes considerably, considerably more heat than the idealised minimum according to Langmuir's Equation.
                          You might be content to assume that such a problem is insurmountable?
                          I'm not!
                          I understand Conservation Of Energy and can state, with certainty, that substantial improvements in practical distillation efficiency are achievable.

                          NB: there is no guarantee that doing this will be a trivial pursuit!
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