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Re: [new_distillers] Penalties

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  • Chris Cameron
    You re living under the Obama regime, You re losing your rights every day.
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 8, 2013
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      You're living under the Obama regime, You're losing your rights every day.

      On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 6:48 AM, Thomas <stought1@...> wrote:
       

      Hello,everyone!
      I have had some fun trying distillation and reading this forum, then it sunk in that I am actually committing a felony.
      Anyone have any interaction with the law? What kind of penalties should be expected? Felons lose rights, and I don't want that.
      How about the class D Farmers license to distill? Any experience with that?
      Thanks again,
      Tom


    • White Bear
       Tom- If you are really concerned with the legalities of distilling small amounts, file for your alternative fuel license.  Then you are sure to be legal. 
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 8, 2013
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         Tom-
        If you are really concerned with the legalities of distilling small amounts, file for your alternative fuel license.  Then you are sure to be legal.  It is not really that difficult to fill out the forms.
        WB

        From: Thomas <stought1@...>
        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, March 8, 2013 8:48 AM
        Subject: [new_distillers] Penalties
         
        Hello,everyone!
        I have had some fun trying distillation and reading this forum, then it sunk in that I am actually committing a felony.
        Anyone have any interaction with the law? What kind of penalties should be expected? Felons lose rights, and I don't want that.
        How about the class D Farmers license to distill? Any experience with that?
        Thanks again,
        Tom

      • Wes Deviers
        I have heard (which is to say, this is hearsay, mind) is that failing to render fuel alcohol undrinkable is actually much worse than your first couple of
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 8, 2013
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          I have heard (which is to say, this is hearsay, mind) is that failing to
          render fuel alcohol undrinkable is actually much worse than your first
          couple of convictions for illegal distillation. The main problem is
          that, once you get the license, you can be inspected at random *and*
          have less leeway with judges. Does it make more sense to go stealth on
          the small scale? If you're selling, it's going to be bad either way,
          and it seems like the legitimate license will just make it that much
          worse when you eventually get caught.

          I considered this path (in Virginia). If, for some reason, law
          enforcement finds my tiny device heating up in the kitchen, I already
          have other problems because I can promise that is *not* why they're
          searching my house. But if I apply for a fuel permit and then casually
          ignore the "render it unconsumable" aspects...somebody shows up to check
          on that at least once.

          My logic may be totally wrong, so I appreciate thoughts on that.

          WD

          On 03/08/2013 12:38 PM, White Bear wrote:
          >
          >
          > Tom-
          > If you are really concerned with the legalities of distilling small amounts, file for your alternative fuel license. Then you are sure to be legal. It is not really that difficult to fill out the forms.
          > WB
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: Thomas <stought1@...>
          > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Friday, March 8, 2013 8:48 AM
          > Subject: [new_distillers] Penalties
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Hello,everyone!
          > I have had some fun trying distillation and reading this forum, then it sunk in that I am actually committing a felony.
          > Anyone have any interaction with the law? What kind of penalties should be expected? Felons lose rights, and I don't want that.
          > How about the class D Farmers license to distill? Any experience with that?
          > Thanks again,
          > Tom
          >
          >
          >
        • local yokel
          There is definitely a contingent risk in home distilling as a hobby, no way around it without licensing in the US. As a reality though, if you don t tell,
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 8, 2013
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            There is definitely a contingent risk in home distilling as a hobby, no way around it without licensing in the US. As a reality though, if you don't tell, don't sell, and don't draw attention to yourself you will be fine. Most law enforcement encounters I've read about have the distiller doing something stupid or was an additional charge when still was found during investigation of another criminal activity. Law enforcenment isn't looking to bust you as a home distiller for personal consumption, but they certainly will enforce the law if you give them no choice. I strongly doubt anyone got a promotion busting Grandpa for making some shine for his own consumption. But Grandpa selling to every Tom, Dick, and Harry who comes along.... totally different scenario. Basically keep it to yourself and they have better things to do.
          • local yokel
            I would agree 100%. Just like running off road diesel in your pickup on the highway. If they catch ya, it s gonna be bad because you are breaking trust with
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 8, 2013
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              I would agree 100%. Just like running off road diesel in your pickup on the highway. If they catch ya, it's gonna be bad because you are breaking trust with the set up system to give legitimate users a legal break from road taxes.

              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Wes Deviers <wes@...> wrote:
              >
              > I have heard (which is to say, this is hearsay, mind) is that failing to
              > render fuel alcohol undrinkable is actually much worse than your first
              > couple of convictions for illegal distillation. The main problem is
              > that, once you get the license, you can be inspected at random *and*
              > have less leeway with judges. Does it make more sense to go stealth on
              > the small scale? If you're selling, it's going to be bad either way,
              > and it seems like the legitimate license will just make it that much
              > worse when you eventually get caught.
              >
              > I considered this path (in Virginia). If, for some reason, law
              > enforcement finds my tiny device heating up in the kitchen, I already
              > have other problems because I can promise that is *not* why they're
              > searching my house. But if I apply for a fuel permit and then casually
              > ignore the "render it unconsumable" aspects...somebody shows up to check
              > on that at least once.
              >
              > My logic may be totally wrong, so I appreciate thoughts on that.
              >
              > WD
              >
              > On 03/08/2013 12:38 PM, White Bear wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Tom-
              > > If you are really concerned with the legalities of distilling small amounts, file for your alternative fuel license. Then you are sure to be legal. It is not really that difficult to fill out the forms.
              > > WB
              > >
              > >
              > > ________________________________
              > > From: Thomas <stought1@...>
              > > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Friday, March 8, 2013 8:48 AM
              > > Subject: [new_distillers] Penalties
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Hello,everyone!
              > > I have had some fun trying distillation and reading this forum, then it sunk in that I am actually committing a felony.
              > > Anyone have any interaction with the law? What kind of penalties should be expected? Felons lose rights, and I don't want that.
              > > How about the class D Farmers license to distill? Any experience with that?
              > > Thanks again,
              > > Tom
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • tgfoitwoods
              Wes and Local, Whether I m right or wrong, I made the same decision you two are advocating, maybe 35 years ago. It seemed to make sense then, for the reasons
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 8, 2013
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                Wes and Local,

                Whether I'm right or wrong, I made the same decision you two are advocating, maybe 35 years ago. It seemed to make sense then, for the reasons you state, and it seems to make sense now.

                Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "local yokel" <stridemiester@...> wrote:
                >
                > I would agree 100%. Just like running off road diesel in your pickup on the highway. If they catch ya, it's gonna be bad because you are breaking trust with the set up system to give legitimate users a legal break from road taxes.
                >
                > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Wes Deviers wes@ wrote:
                > >
                > > I have heard (which is to say, this is hearsay, mind) is that failing to
                > > render fuel alcohol undrinkable is actually much worse than your first
                > > couple of convictions for illegal distillation. The main problem is
                > > that, once you get the license, you can be inspected at random *and*
                > > have less leeway with judges. Does it make more sense to go stealth on
                > > the small scale? If you're selling, it's going to be bad either way,
                > > and it seems like the legitimate license will just make it that much
                > > worse when you eventually get caught.
                > >
                > > I considered this path (in Virginia). If, for some reason, law
                > > enforcement finds my tiny device heating up in the kitchen, I already
                > > have other problems because I can promise that is *not* why they're
                > > searching my house. But if I apply for a fuel permit and then casually
                > > ignore the "render it unconsumable" aspects...somebody shows up to check
                > > on that at least once.
                > >
                > > My logic may be totally wrong, so I appreciate thoughts on that.
                > >
                > > WD
                > >
                > > On 03/08/2013 12:38 PM, White Bear wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Tom-
                > > > If you are really concerned with the legalities of distilling small amounts, file for your alternative fuel license. Then you are sure to be legal. It is not really that difficult to fill out the forms.
                > > > WB
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ________________________________
                > > > From: Thomas stought1@
                > > > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                > > > Sent: Friday, March 8, 2013 8:48 AM
                > > > Subject: [new_distillers] Penalties
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Hello,everyone!
                > > > I have had some fun trying distillation and reading this forum, then it sunk in that I am actually committing a felony.
                > > > Anyone have any interaction with the law? What kind of penalties should be expected? Felons lose rights, and I don't want that.
                > > > How about the class D Farmers license to distill? Any experience with that?
                > > > Thanks again,
                > > > Tom
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Jim Graves
                Well if y all are wrong, so am I, count me in!   James D. Graves ________________________________ From: tgfoitwoods To:
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 8, 2013
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                  Well if y'all are wrong, so am I, count me in!
                   
                  James D. Graves



                  From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                  To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, March 8, 2013 1:51 PM
                  Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Penalties

                   
                  Wes and Local,

                  Whether I'm right or wrong, I made the same decision you two are advocating, maybe 35 years ago. It seemed to make sense then, for the reasons you state, and it seems to make sense now.

                  Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "local yokel" <stridemiester@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I would agree 100%. Just like running off road diesel in your pickup on the highway. If they catch ya, it's gonna be bad because you are breaking trust with the set up system to give legitimate users a legal break from road taxes.
                  >
                  > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Wes Deviers wes@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I have heard (which is to say, this is hearsay, mind) is that failing to
                  > > render fuel alcohol undrinkable is actually much worse than your first
                  > > couple of convictions for illegal distillation. The main problem is
                  > > that, once you get the license, you can be inspected at random *and*
                  > > have less leeway with judges. Does it make more sense to go stealth on
                  > > the small scale? If you're selling, it's going to be bad either way,
                  > > and it seems like the legitimate license will just make it that much
                  > > worse when you eventually get caught.
                  > >
                  > > I considered this path (in Virginia). If, for some reason, law
                  > > enforcement finds my tiny device heating up in the kitchen, I already
                  > > have other problems because I can promise that is *not* why they're
                  > > searching my house. But if I apply for a fuel permit and then casually
                  > > ignore the "render it unconsumable" aspects...somebody shows up to check
                  > > on that at least once.
                  > >
                  > > My logic may be totally wrong, so I appreciate thoughts on that.
                  > >
                  > > WD
                  > >
                  > > On 03/08/2013 12:38 PM, White Bear wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Tom-
                  > > > If you are really concerned with the legalities of distilling small amounts, file for your alternative fuel license. Then you are sure to be legal. It is not really that difficult to fill out the forms.
                  > > > WB
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ________________________________
                  > > > From: Thomas stought1@
                  > > > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > Sent: Friday, March 8, 2013 8:48 AM
                  > > > Subject: [new_distillers] Penalties
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Hello,everyone!
                  > > > I have had some fun trying distillation and reading this forum, then it sunk in that I am actually committing a felony.
                  > > > Anyone have any interaction with the law? What kind of penalties should be expected? Felons lose rights, and I don't want that.
                  > > > How about the class D Farmers license to distill? Any experience with that?
                  > > > Thanks again,
                  > > > Tom
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >


                • Lee Goodman
                  As a complete newbie, I went to my local brewshop to find out whether they stocked the various grains that I plan to use. The salesman asked me whether I
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 8, 2013
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                    As a complete newbie, I went to my local brewshop to find out whether they stocked the various grains that I plan to use.  The salesman asked me whether I planned on getting a license and I said no, that I was just experimenting.  He then got very serious and told me that he was an ATF agent during the week.  I was reasonably surprised, but then he grinned at me and assure me that the agents had better things to do rather than harass hobbyists.  He couldn't have been more encouraging.

                    Lee

                    Sent from my iPhone

                    On Mar 8, 2013, at 2:51 PM, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote:

                    Wes and Local,

                    Whether I'm right or wrong, I made the same decision you two are advocating, maybe 35 years ago. It seemed to make sense then, for the reasons you state, and it seems to make sense now.

                    Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "local yokel" <stridemiester@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I would agree 100%. Just like running off road diesel in your pickup on the highway. If they catch ya, it's gonna be bad because you are breaking trust with the set up system to give legitimate users a legal break from road taxes.
                    >
                    > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Wes Deviers wes@ wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I have heard (which is to say, this is hearsay, mind) is that failing to
                    > > render fuel alcohol undrinkable is actually much worse than your first
                    > > couple of c onvictions for illegal distillation. The main problem is
                    > > that, once you get the license, you can be inspected at random *and*
                    > > have less leeway with judges. Does it make more sense to go stealth on
                    > > the small scale? If you're selling, it's going to be bad either way,
                    > > and it seems like the legitimate license will just make it that much
                    > > worse when you eventually get caught.
                    > >
                    > > I considered this path (in Virginia). If, for some reason, law
                    > > enforcement finds my tiny device heating up in the kitchen, I already
                    > > have other problems because I can promise that is *not* why they're
                    > > searching my house. But if I apply for a fuel permit and then casually
                    > > ignore the "render it unconsumable" aspects...somebody shows up to check
                    > > on that at least once.
                    > >
                    > > My logic may be totally wrong, so I appreciate thoughts on that.
                    > >
                    > > WD
                    > >
                    > > On 03/08/2013 12:38 PM, White Bear wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Tom-
                    > > > If you are really concerned with the legalities of distilling small amounts, file for your alternative fuel license. Then you are sure to be legal. It is not really that difficult to fill out the forms.
                    > > > WB
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ________________________________
                    > > > From: Thomas stought1@
                    > > > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > Sent: Friday, March 8, 2013 8:48 AM
                    > > > Subject: [new_distillers] Penalties
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Hello,everyone!
                    > > > I have had some fun trying distillation and reading this forum, then it sunk in that I am actually committing a felony.
                    > > > Anyone have a ny interaction with the law? What kind of penalties should be expected? Felons lose rights, and I don't want that.
                    > > > How about the class D Farmers license to distill? Any experience with that?
                    > > > Thanks again,
                    > > > Tom
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Chris Cameron
                    Isn t it easier to ask forgiveness than ask for permission?
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 8, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Isn't it easier to ask forgiveness than ask for permission?

                      On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Jim Graves <jimbull34@...> wrote:
                       

                      Well if y'all are wrong, so am I, count me in!
                       
                      James D. Graves



                      From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                      To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, March 8, 2013 1:51 PM
                      Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Penalties

                       
                      Wes and Local,

                      Whether I'm right or wrong, I made the same decision you two are advocating, maybe 35 years ago. It seemed to make sense then, for the reasons you state, and it seems to make sense now.

                      Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "local yokel" <stridemiester@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I would agree 100%. Just like running off road diesel in your pickup on the highway. If they catch ya, it's gonna be bad because you are breaking trust with the set up system to give legitimate users a legal break from road taxes.
                      >
                      > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Wes Deviers wes@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I have heard (which is to say, this is hearsay, mind) is that failing to
                      > > render fuel alcohol undrinkable is actually much worse than your first
                      > > couple of convictions for illegal distillation. The main problem is
                      > > that, once you get the license, you can be inspected at random *and*
                      > > have less leeway with judges. Does it make more sense to go stealth on
                      > > the small scale? If you're selling, it's going to be bad either way,
                      > > and it seems like the legitimate license will just make it that much
                      > > worse when you eventually get caught.
                      > >
                      > > I considered this path (in Virginia). If, for some reason, law
                      > > enforcement finds my tiny device heating up in the kitchen, I already
                      > > have other problems because I can promise that is *not* why they're
                      > > searching my house. But if I apply for a fuel permit and then casually
                      > > ignore the "render it unconsumable" aspects...somebody shows up to check
                      > > on that at least once.
                      > >
                      > > My logic may be totally wrong, so I appreciate thoughts on that.
                      > >
                      > > WD
                      > >
                      > > On 03/08/2013 12:38 PM, White Bear wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Tom-
                      > > > If you are really concerned with the legalities of distilling small amounts, file for your alternative fuel license. Then you are sure to be legal. It is not really that difficult to fill out the forms.
                      > > > WB
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ________________________________
                      > > > From: Thomas stought1@
                      > > > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > Sent: Friday, March 8, 2013 8:48 AM
                      > > > Subject: [new_distillers] Penalties
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Hello,everyone!
                      > > > I have had some fun trying distillation and reading this forum, then it sunk in that I am actually committing a felony.
                      > > > Anyone have any interaction with the law? What kind of penalties should be expected? Felons lose rights, and I don't want that.
                      > > > How about the class D Farmers license to distill? Any experience with that?
                      > > > Thanks again,
                      > > > Tom
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >



                    • Ed Barcik
                      They may be too busy with other things. http://www.ttb.gov/statistics/95newa08.htm
                      Message 10 of 12 , Mar 9, 2013
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                        They may be too busy with other things.

                         

                        http://www.ttb.gov/statistics/95newa08.htm

                         

                      • local yokel
                        I m a big believer in the forgiveness theory of getting things done, but IMO the lawdogs aren t going to buy into that operational tactic. If they are standing
                        Message 11 of 12 , Mar 9, 2013
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                          I'm a big believer in the forgiveness theory of getting things done, but IMO the lawdogs aren't going to buy into that operational tactic. If they are standing in front of your still, things are way beyond the "I'm sorry" point. Something drastic has happened or they won't bother with you.

                          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Chris Cameron <gonagin58@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Isn't it easier to ask forgiveness than ask for permission?
                          >
                          > On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Jim Graves <jimbull34@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > **
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Well if y'all are wrong, so am I, count me in!
                          > >
                          > > James D. Graves
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ------------------------------
                          > > *From:* tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                          > > *To:* new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          > > *Sent:* Friday, March 8, 2013 1:51 PM
                          > > *Subject:* [new_distillers] Re: Penalties
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Wes and Local,
                          > >
                          > > Whether I'm right or wrong, I made the same decision you two are
                          > > advocating, maybe 35 years ago. It seemed to make sense then, for the
                          > > reasons you state, and it seems to make sense now.
                          > >
                          > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller *Making Fine Spirits*<http://www.kelleybarts.com/zymurgy-bob-books/making-fine-spirits/>
                          > >
                          > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "local yokel" <stridemiester@>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > I would agree 100%. Just like running off road diesel in your pickup on
                          > > the highway. If they catch ya, it's gonna be bad because you are breaking
                          > > trust with the set up system to give legitimate users a legal break from
                          > > road taxes.
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Wes Deviers wes@ wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I have heard (which is to say, this is hearsay, mind) is that failing
                          > > to
                          > > > > render fuel alcohol undrinkable is actually much worse than your first
                          > > > > couple of convictions for illegal distillation. The main problem is
                          > > > > that, once you get the license, you can be inspected at random *and*
                          > > > > have less leeway with judges. Does it make more sense to go stealth on
                          > > > > the small scale? If you're selling, it's going to be bad either way,
                          > > > > and it seems like the legitimate license will just make it that much
                          > > > > worse when you eventually get caught.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I considered this path (in Virginia). If, for some reason, law
                          > > > > enforcement finds my tiny device heating up in the kitchen, I already
                          > > > > have other problems because I can promise that is *not* why they're
                          > > > > searching my house. But if I apply for a fuel permit and then casually
                          > > > > ignore the "render it unconsumable" aspects...somebody shows up to
                          > > check
                          > > > > on that at least once.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > My logic may be totally wrong, so I appreciate thoughts on that.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > WD
                          > > > >
                          > > > > On 03/08/2013 12:38 PM, White Bear wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Tom-
                          > > > > > If you are really concerned with the legalities of distilling small
                          > > amounts, file for your alternative fuel license. Then you are sure to be
                          > > legal. It is not really that difficult to fill out the forms.
                          > > > > > WB
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > ________________________________
                          > > > > > From: Thomas stought1@
                          > > > > > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > > > Sent: Friday, March 8, 2013 8:48 AM
                          > > > > > Subject: [new_distillers] Penalties
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Hello,everyone!
                          > > > > > I have had some fun trying distillation and reading this forum, then
                          > > it sunk in that I am actually committing a felony.
                          > > > > > Anyone have any interaction with the law? What kind of penalties
                          > > should be expected? Felons lose rights, and I don't want that.
                          > > > > > How about the class D Farmers license to distill? Any experience
                          > > with that?
                          > > > > > Thanks again,
                          > > > > > Tom
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
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