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Re: [new_distillers] Re: Wheat Mash

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  • White Bear
    Alli-   I wouldn t actually call it cooking if there isn t a sustained simmer at least.  I think what you did was Bloom the wheat kernels.  I am sure that
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 18, 2013
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      Alli-
        I wouldn't actually call it cooking if there isn't a sustained simmer at least.  I think what you did was "Bloom" the wheat kernels.  I am sure that at the beginning of the "Pitch" there was some cooking but I would bet that the tempreture cooled rather rapidly immediatly after pitching until the kernels equilibreated with the liquid temp.  If you would have cracked the wheat at least, the initial temp would have had the chance to soften and "cook" the kernels so to speak. You may have acquired a decent starch convergence in the beginning but the rest of the starch may have stayed suspended throughout the fermentation period.  This is where the actual cooking comes in, you need to liberate the starch or "denature" the starch through a prolonged cooking session.  Just remember not to exceed 195°F during the cooking process or you may end up with a bunch of glue in your fermentation vessel. 
      White Bear
       
       
       

      From: allibugger <allibugger@...>
      To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:51 PM
      Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Wheat Mash
       
      White Bear,
      The recipe called for heating the water to 165 degrees, turning off the heat, pitching the wheat and letting it cool to 85 degrees before pitching the yeast. I don't know if that is what you call cooking it or not. I did not grind the wheat. Thanks. Alli

      --- In mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com, White Bear wrote:
      >
      > Alli-
      >   With a lot of grain mashes there will be some floating, this is normal.  This is called "the cap"  Wheat being so fiberous will have the tendency to do this more if you are using whole or cracked wheat.  Try to get ground wheat or grind your own.  The cap will soon waterlog and things will settle down after a while.  Just keep stirring the cap into the mash and try varying the grind on your next batch.  Did you cook the mash before pitching the yeast?
      > WB
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: allibugger
      > To: mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 2:21 PM
      > Subject: [new_distillers] Wheat Mash
      >
      >
      >  
      >
      > Howdy All,
      >
      > Reading the recent questions/answers regarding mashing processes, I have a question. I have tried several corn based recipes and am now experimenting with a flaked wheat vodka recipe. I notice after the yeast is pitched and the top is put on the fermenter, the wheat floats to the top and somewhat dries out. This also seems to slow down the fermentation process - when I take the top off and still it well, the bubbling picks up for a while until the wheat floats back up. Is this a problem or just how it works? Thanks
      > Alli
      >

    • Becool Stayslinky
      This might be of interest from the alcohol textbook: Gelatinization temperature ranges of various feedstocks Corn Standard 62-72 C (
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 18, 2013
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        This might be of interest from the alcohol textbook:

        Gelatinization temperature ranges of various feedstocks

        Corn
        Standard 62-72 C ( 144-162 F )
        High amylose 1 67->80 C ( 153-176 F )
        High amylose 2 67->80 C ( 153-176 F )
        Barley 52-59 C ( 126-138 F )
        Rye 57-70 C ( 135-158 F )
        Rice (polished) 68-77 C ( 154-171 F )
        Sorghum (milo) 68-77 C ( 154-171 F )
        Wheat 58-64 C ( 136-147 F )

        This is the cooking temperature that you hold for an hour or so to hydrate the starch molecules so that they enzymes can work on them. In my cooking procedure I bring 7 gallons of water to a boil, turn off the heat and add 20 pounds of finely ground wheat, with a little bit of enzyme mixed through the last few pounds to make the mix more stirrable. After all the grain is mixed in, the temperature is at about 180-185, well above the required temp for cooking wheat, but doesn't hurt it and speeds up the hydration of the starches. I it let stand for about an hour, mixing occasionally before moving to the liquefaction step where the alpha amylase enzyme is used.

        BTW- I make up the rest of the liquid content in the mash by adding ice blocks to bring the temp down in the subsequent steps.

        BC

        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "allibugger" <allibugger@...> wrote:
        >
        > White Bear,
        > The recipe called for heating the water to 165 degrees, turning off the heat, pitching the wheat and letting it cool to 85 degrees before pitching the yeast. I don't know if that is what you call cooking it or not. I did not grind the wheat. Thanks. Alli
        >
        > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, White Bear <sha_man_1@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Alli-
        > >   With a lot of grain mashes there will be some floating, this is normal.  This is called "the cap"  Wheat being so fiberous will have the tendency to do this more if you are using whole or cracked wheat.  Try to get ground wheat or grind your own.  The cap will soon waterlog and things will settle down after a while.  Just keep stirring the cap into the mash and try varying the grind on your next batch.  Did you cook the mash before pitching the yeast?
        > > WB
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ________________________________
        > > From: allibugger <allibugger@>
        > > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 2:21 PM
        > > Subject: [new_distillers] Wheat Mash
        > >
        > >
        > >  
        > >
        > > Howdy All,
        > >
        > > Reading the recent questions/answers regarding mashing processes, I have a question. I have tried several corn based recipes and am now experimenting with a flaked wheat vodka recipe. I notice after the yeast is pitched and the top is put on the fermenter, the wheat floats to the top and somewhat dries out. This also seems to slow down the fermentation process - when I take the top off and still it well, the bubbling picks up for a while until the wheat floats back up. Is this a problem or just how it works? Thanks
        > > Alli
        > >
        >
      • RLB
        Thanks BC You blew me away with high amylose had no clue until I wiki ed it.  If you ever run across Gelatinization temperature for buckwheat and oats, I will
        Message 3 of 8 , Feb 18, 2013
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          Thanks BC

          You blew me away with high amylose had no clue until I wiki'ed it.  If you ever run across Gelatinization temperature for buckwheat and oats, I will be a happy camper.

          Robert



          From: Becool Stayslinky <becoolstayslinky@...>
          To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 8:26 PM
          Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Wheat Mash

           
          This might be of interest from the alcohol textbook:

          Gelatinization temperature ranges of various feedstocks

          Corn
          Standard 62-72 C ( 144-162 F )
          High amylose 1 67->80 C ( 153-176 F )
          High amylose 2 67->80 C ( 153-176 F )
          Barley 52-59 C ( 126-138 F )
          Rye 57-70 C ( 135-158 F )
          Rice (polished) 68-77 C ( 154-171 F )
          Sorghum (milo) 68-77 C ( 154-171 F )
          Wheat 58-64 C ( 136-147 F )

          This is the cooking temperature that you hold for an hour or so to hydrate the starch molecules so that they enzymes can work on them. In my cooking procedure I bring 7 gallons of water to a boil, turn off the heat and add 20 pounds of finely ground wheat, with a little bit of enzyme mixed through the last few pounds to make the mix more stirrable. After all the grain is mixed in, the temperature is at about 180-185, well above the required temp for cooking wheat, but doesn't hurt it and speeds up the hydration of the starches. I it let stand for about an hour, mixing occasionally before moving to the liquefaction step where the alpha amylase enzyme is used.

          BTW- I make up the rest of the liquid content in the mash by adding ice blocks to bring the temp down in the subsequent steps.

          BC

          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "allibugger" wrote:
          >
          > White Bear,
          > The recipe called for heating the water to 165 degrees, turning off the heat, pitching the wheat and letting it cool to 85 degrees before pitching the yeast. I don't know if that is what you call cooking it or not. I did not grind the wheat. Thanks. Alli
          >
          > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, White Bear wrote:
          > >
          > > Alli-
          > >   With a lot of grain mashes there will be some floating, this is normal.  This is called "the cap"  Wheat being so fiberous will have the tendency to do this more if you are using whole or cracked wheat.  Try to get ground wheat or grind your own.  The cap will soon waterlog and things will settle down after a while.  Just keep stirring the cap into the mash and try varying the grind on your next batch.  Did you cook the mash before pitching the yeast?
          > > WB
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ________________________________
          > > From: allibugger
          > > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
          > > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 2:21 PM
          > > Subject: [new_distillers] Wheat Mash
          > >
          > >
          > >  
          > >
          > > Howdy All,
          > >
          > > Reading the recent questions/answers regarding mashing processes, I have a question. I have tried several corn based recipes and am now experimenting with a flaked wheat vodka recipe. I notice after the yeast is pitched and the top is put on the fermenter, the wheat floats to the top and somewhat dries out. This also seems to slow down the fermentation process - when I take the top off and still it well, the bubbling picks up for a while until the wheat floats back up. Is this a problem or just how it works? Thanks
          > > Alli
          > >
          >



        • Becool Stayslinky
          Oats 52-64 C Buckwheat 60-85 C One other thing about commercial enzymes - they are formulated for different temperature ranges, some will work at very
          Message 4 of 8 , Feb 19, 2013
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            Oats 52-64 C
            Buckwheat 60-85 C

            One other thing about commercial enzymes - they are formulated for different temperature ranges, some will work at very high temperatures. The alpha amylase that I use denatures around 160 but it will work at 185 just long enough to reduce the viscosity to where the mash is easier to work with, but it is done for within a few minutes.

            BC

            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thanks BC
            >
            > You blew me away with high amylose had no clue until I wiki'ed it.  If you ever run across Gelatinization temperature for buckwheat and oats, I will be a happy camper.
            >
            > Robert
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: Becool Stayslinky <becoolstayslinky@...>
            > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 8:26 PM
            > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Wheat Mash
            >
            >
            >  
            > This might be of interest from the alcohol textbook:
            >
            > Gelatinization temperature ranges of various feedstocks
            >
            > Corn
            > Standard 62-72 C ( 144-162 F )
            > High amylose 1 67->80 C ( 153-176 F )
            > High amylose 2 67->80 C ( 153-176 F )
            > Barley 52-59 C ( 126-138 F )
            > Rye 57-70 C ( 135-158 F )
            > Rice (polished) 68-77 C ( 154-171 F )
            > Sorghum (milo) 68-77 C ( 154-171 F )
            > Wheat 58-64 C ( 136-147 F )
            >
            > This is the cooking temperature that you hold for an hour or so to hydrate the starch molecules so that they enzymes can work on them. In my cooking procedure I bring 7 gallons of water to a boil, turn off the heat and add 20 pounds of finely ground wheat, with a little bit of enzyme mixed through the last few pounds to make the mix more stirrable. After all the grain is mixed in, the temperature is at about 180-185, well above the required temp for cooking wheat, but doesn't hurt it and speeds up the hydration of the starches. I it let stand for about an hour, mixing occasionally before moving to the liquefaction step where the alpha amylase enzyme is used.
            >
            > BTW- I make up the rest of the liquid content in the mash by adding ice blocks to bring the temp down in the subsequent steps.
            >
            > BC
            >
            > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "allibugger" wrote:
            > >
            > > White Bear,
            > > The recipe called for heating the water to 165 degrees, turning off the heat, pitching the wheat and letting it cool to 85 degrees before pitching the yeast. I don't know if that is what you call cooking it or not. I did not grind the wheat. Thanks. Alli
            > >
            > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, White Bear wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Alli-
            > > >   With a lot of grain mashes there will be some floating, this is normal.  This is called "the cap"  Wheat being so fiberous will have the tendency to do this more if you are using whole or cracked wheat.  Try to get ground wheat or grind your own.  The cap will soon waterlog and things will settle down after a while.  Just keep stirring the cap into the mash and try varying the grind on your next batch.  Did you cook the mash before pitching the yeast?
            > > > WB
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ________________________________
            > > > From: allibugger
            > > > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
            > > > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 2:21 PM
            > > > Subject: [new_distillers] Wheat Mash
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >  
            > > >
            > > > Howdy All,
            > > >
            > > > Reading the recent questions/answers regarding mashing processes, I have a question. I have tried several corn based recipes and am now experimenting with a flaked wheat vodka recipe. I notice after the yeast is pitched and the top is put on the fermenter, the wheat floats to the top and somewhat dries out. This also seems to slow down the fermentation process - when I take the top off and still it well, the bubbling picks up for a while until the wheat floats back up. Is this a problem or just how it works? Thanks
            > > > Alli
            > > >
            > >
            >
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