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Re: [new_distillers] Malting

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  • Henk Stuurman
    Don t cook, mash! cooking kills the enzymes. ________________________________ From: Fredrick Lee To:
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 12, 2013
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      Don't cook, mash! cooking kills the enzymes.


      From: Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...>
      To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 8:53 PM
      Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Malting

       
      Malting creates the enzyme. The cooking (and pH) activates the enzyme.  You have to do both steps. 



      On Feb 11, 2013, at 10:18 PM, "last2blast" <last2blast@...> wrote:

       
      Just wondered if anyone has ever individually malted corn, barley, and rye for use in a wash?

      Do you still need to cook those grains if you malt them all?

      My thinking about malting grains in an attempt to try avoiding the cooking process. Once you malt them you crush them and grind some barley for the enzymes.

      Robert



    • Fredrick Lee
      This is correct. Everything in this game is time and temperature. If you don t know both, you ve lost control. When I say cooking I mean mashing Look up
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 13, 2013
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        This is correct. Everything in this game is time and temperature. 

        If you don't know both, you've lost control. 


        When I say "cooking" I mean "mashing"   

        Look up your mashing charts and determine the sweetness profile you want for your mash. 

        Time and temperature. EVERY STEP. 

        On Feb 13, 2013, at 12:28 AM, Henk Stuurman <hstuurman@...> wrote:

         

        If you use malted grains you never boil them. The malted grains got the enzymes to break down the strarches, Never boil them, only boil the unmalted grains.


        From: last2blast <last2blast@...>
        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:18 AM
        Subject: [new_distillers] Malting

         
        Just wondered if anyone has ever individually malted corn, barley, and rye for use in a wash?

        Do you still need to cook those grains if you malt them all?

        My thinking about malting grains in an attempt to try avoiding the cooking process. Once you malt them you crush them and grind some barley for the enzymes.

        Robert



      • RLB
        Thanks!  I was hoping that malting all my grains would eliminate the cooking process because it will be very difficult for me to maintain grain temp at 150 F
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 13, 2013
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          Thanks!  I was hoping that malting all my grains would eliminate the cooking process because it will be very difficult for me to maintain grain temp at 150 F for an hour and then rapidly cool it to add yeast.

          Robert



          From: Henk Stuurman <hstuurman@...>
          To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 12:28 AM
          Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Malting

           
          If you use malted grains you never boil them. The malted grains got the enzymes to break down the strarches, Never boil them, only boil the unmalted grains.


          From: last2blast <last2blast@...>
          To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:18 AM
          Subject: [new_distillers] Malting

           
          Just wondered if anyone has ever individually malted corn, barley, and rye for use in a wash?

          Do you still need to cook those grains if you malt them all?

          My thinking about malting grains in an attempt to try avoiding the cooking process. Once you malt them you crush them and grind some barley for the enzymes.

          Robert





        • Jeff Kimble
          You still need to mash/lauter them at 150F or close to it. But never boil them. Malting brings out enzymes that operate best at 148-152F. They work at
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 14, 2013
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            You still need to  mash/lauter them at 150F or close to it.    But never boil them.

            Malting brings out enzymes that operate best at 148-152F.  They work at lower temperatures as well, but 150F is the fastest range.  The easiest way to keep your mash  at 150F is insulation.   I wrap my brew kettle with blankets, others use coolers.  

            Then you need to rinse the grains to extract all the sugars/wort.  You can ferment on the grain as well, but I don't.

            Search the home brew sites for all grain brewing methods, whiskey is no different.

            Finally, you don't need to rapidly chill it..  Search for No-Chill home brewing.  As long as you keep the wort clean/sealed, it can chill on it's own, letting you pitch the yeast once it's fully chilled.  



            On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 7:19 AM, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
             

            Thanks!  I was hoping that malting all my grains would eliminate the cooking process because it will be very difficult for me to maintain grain temp at 150 F for an hour and then rapidly cool it to add yeast.

            Robert



            From: Henk Stuurman <hstuurman@...>
            To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 12:28 AM
            Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Malting

             
            If you use malted grains you never boil them. The malted grains got the enzymes to break down the strarches, Never boil them, only boil the unmalted grains.


            From: last2blast <last2blast@...>
            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:18 AM
            Subject: [new_distillers] Malting

             
            Just wondered if anyone has ever individually malted corn, barley, and rye for use in a wash?

            Do you still need to cook those grains if you malt them all?

            My thinking about malting grains in an attempt to try avoiding the cooking process. Once you malt them you crush them and grind some barley for the enzymes.

            Robert






          • TODP
            What about using ground corn? Does it have to be cooked before making a mash to release the starches to convert to sugars or can it be added direct with sugars
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 14, 2013
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              What about using ground corn? Does it have to be cooked before making a mash to release the starches to convert to sugars or can it be added direct with sugars and  yeast as is? Any benefits to cooking prior?


              On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 10:19 AM, RLB wrote:

                 Thanks!  I was hoping that malting all my grains would eliminate the cooking process because it will be very difficult for me to maintain grain temp at 150 F for an hour and then rapidly cool it to add yeast.

              Robert




              ___________________________________

              From: Henk Stuurman <hstuurman@...>
              To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 12:28 AM
              Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Malting

                If you use malted grains you never boil them. The malted grains got the enzymes to break down the strarches, Never boil them, only boil the unmalted grains.


              ___________________________________

              From: last2blast <last2blast@...>
              To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:18 AM
              Subject: [new_distillers] Malting

                Just wondered if anyone has ever individually malted corn, barley, and rye for use in a wash?

              Do you still need to cook those grains if you malt them all?

              My thinking about malting grains in an attempt to try avoiding the cooking process.  Once you malt them you crush them and grind some barley for the enzymes.

              Robert






            • Bill Rogers
              to cool it, look at what the beer guys do for wort chillers and such.
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 14, 2013
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                to cool it, look at what the beer guys do for wort chillers and such.  


                On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 9:19 AM, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
                 

                Thanks!  I was hoping that malting all my grains would eliminate the cooking process because it will be very difficult for me to maintain grain temp at 150 F for an hour and then rapidly cool it to add yeast.

                Robert



                From: Henk Stuurman <hstuurman@...>
                To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 12:28 AM
                Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Malting

                 
                If you use malted grains you never boil them. The malted grains got the enzymes to break down the strarches, Never boil them, only boil the unmalted grains.


                From: last2blast <last2blast@...>
                To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:18 AM
                Subject: [new_distillers] Malting

                 
                Just wondered if anyone has ever individually malted corn, barley, and rye for use in a wash?

                Do you still need to cook those grains if you malt them all?

                My thinking about malting grains in an attempt to try avoiding the cooking process. Once you malt them you crush them and grind some barley for the enzymes.

                Robert






              • John Rucker
                I basically treat grains, corn, etc. like I do any all grain beer recipe and do the mash/lauter process, but then again I ve been brewing for 30 years and have
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 14, 2013
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                  I basically treat grains, corn, etc. like I do any all grain beer recipe and do the mash/lauter process, but then again I've been brewing for 30 years and have equipment to do it. For a 5 gallon batch, I use 1.25 quarts of water per pound of grain and let the grains steep for an hour at 155 F in a mash/lauter tun (aka a converted cooler), slowly drain off the liquid produced and re-run it through the mash tun and then sparge it by running 5 gallons of 180F water through the grain. Then I boil the mixture for an hour. 

                  Pretty much your basic all grain brewing, although many folks don't do the optional double mash and of course there are no hops involved.

                  For cooling, the conventional methods are either an ice/water bath or a wort chiller (or plate chillers - even fancier and more expensive).

                  What you might consider - and I've been brewing beer like this the past year with no issues - is to do it Australian "no chill" style and basically leave your hot wort in the fermenter, with the air lock in place to keep the bad stuff from getting in, and then adding the yeast the following day after it has cooled sufficiently.  Beer yeast is a tad more sensitive than the dried champagne yeast I've used for fermentation experiments so depending on when you create your mash, you may be able to add yeast later the same day. Me, I'm old and lazy and just add yeast the following morning.

                  Here's a link or you can google "no chill beer"  Like I say, I've had no issues with a variety of beer types and I figure wash is considerably less picky than mash is.



                  On Feb 14, 2013, at 1:07 PM, Bill Rogers <bill.rogers@...> wrote:

                   

                  to cool it, look at what the beer guys do for wort chillers and such.  


                  On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 9:19 AM, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
                   

                  Thanks!  I was hoping that malting all my grains would eliminate the cooking process because it will be very difficult for me to maintain grain temp at 150 F for an hour and then rapidly cool it to add yeast.

                  Robert



                  From: Henk Stuurman <hstuurman@...>
                  To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 12:28 AM
                  Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Malting

                   
                  If you use malted grains you never boil them. The malted grains got the enzymes to break down the strarches, Never boil them, only boil the unmalted grains.


                  From: last2blast <last2blast@...>
                  To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:18 AM
                  Subject: [new_distillers] Malting

                   
                  Just wondered if anyone has ever individually malted corn, barley, and rye for use in a wash?

                  Do you still need to cook those grains if you malt them all?

                  My thinking about malting grains in an attempt to try avoiding the cooking process. Once you malt them you crush them and grind some barley for the enzymes.

                  Robert









                • ballard_bootlegger
                  Hello my favorite forum. I have malted barley in the past so I am familiar with the process. Now I am considering sprouting some grain and tossing that right
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 3, 2013
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                    Hello my favorite forum. I have malted barley in the past so I am familiar with the process. Now I am considering sprouting some grain and tossing that right in the kettle to convert my non-malted grain.

                    My question, "Is the kilning/drying actually necessary for conversion?"

                    A beer brewer reminded me about the wet milling issue and I figured there's no need to count on the minimal malt for starch so no need to crack. Without cracking, though, are the enzymes still dispersed? Has anyone ever mashed non-heated or dried malt? If so, did the wet malt have less of the flavor you'd normally expect from your malt, pre and post distillation? Is it even called malt if it hasn't been roasted or dried?

                    Thanks!
                    Whitney.
                  • waljaco
                    Green malt is used by homedistillers for converting. You need to wet dried malt anyway to activate the enzymes. wal
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 3, 2013
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                      Green malt is used by homedistillers for converting. You need to wet dried malt anyway to activate the enzymes.
                      wal

                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "ballard_bootlegger" <meriwetherdistilleries@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello my favorite forum. I have malted barley in the past so I am familiar with the process. Now I am considering sprouting some grain and tossing that right in the kettle to convert my non-malted grain.
                      >
                      > My question, "Is the kilning/drying actually necessary for conversion?"
                      >
                      > A beer brewer reminded me about the wet milling issue and I figured there's no need to count on the minimal malt for starch so no need to crack. Without cracking, though, are the enzymes still dispersed? Has anyone ever mashed non-heated or dried malt? If so, did the wet malt have less of the flavor you'd normally expect from your malt, pre and post distillation? Is it even called malt if it hasn't been roasted or dried?
                      >
                      > Thanks!
                      > Whitney.
                      >
                    • ballard_bootlegger
                      Thanks Wal. I m going to give this a shot with a little rye. I ll report any difference in taste or performance.
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 4, 2013
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                        Thanks Wal. I'm going to give this a shot with a little rye. I'll report any difference in taste or performance.

                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Green malt is used by homedistillers for converting. You need to wet dried malt anyway to activate the enzymes.
                        > wal
                        >
                      • waljaco
                        The green sprouting part is not particularly wanted as it contains substances to prevent bugs eating it - in dried malt it is removed. wal
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 4, 2013
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                          The green sprouting part is not particularly wanted as it contains substances to prevent bugs eating it - in dried malt it is removed.
                          wal

                          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "ballard_bootlegger" <meriwetherdistilleries@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Thanks Wal. I'm going to give this a shot with a little rye. I'll report any difference in taste or performance.
                          >
                          > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Green malt is used by homedistillers for converting. You need to wet dried malt anyway to activate the enzymes.
                          > > wal
                          > >
                          >
                        • RLB
                          Thank you, I did not think about that part. Robert ________________________________ From: waljaco To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          Message 12 of 20 , Mar 4, 2013
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                            Thank you, I did not think about that part.

                            Robert



                            From: waljaco <waljaco@...>
                            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Monday, March 4, 2013 7:35 PM
                            Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Malting

                             
                            The green sprouting part is not particularly wanted as it contains substances to prevent bugs eating it - in dried malt it is removed.
                            wal

                            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "ballard_bootlegger" wrote:
                            >
                            > Thanks Wal. I'm going to give this a shot with a little rye. I'll report any difference in taste or performance.
                            >
                            > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Green malt is used by homedistillers for converting. You need to wet dried malt anyway to activate the enzymes.
                            > > wal
                            > >
                            >



                          • ballard_bootlegger
                            Thanks Wal. I m going to give this a shot with a little rye. I ll report any difference in taste or performance.
                            Message 13 of 20 , Mar 12, 2013
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                              Thanks Wal. I'm going to give this a shot with a little rye. I'll report any difference in taste or performance.

                              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Green malt is used by homedistillers for converting. You need to wet dried malt anyway to activate the enzymes.
                              > wal
                              >
                            • last2blast
                              If group members are serious about hobby, moonshine, or legal distilling, I highly suggest that you take the time to really learn how to malt grains and how
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jan 26, 2014
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                                If group members are serious about hobby, moonshine, or legal distilling, I highly suggest that you take the time to really learn how to malt grains and how that malting process will change the flavor of your distillate.  We see TV shows like "Moonshiners" where they toss the grain into a stream and pull it out to sprout, and then dry it in the sun.  What I am learning about malting makes me shake my head in amazement because it truly is a science and art combined into one.

                                If you want to make a wonderfully flavored spirit, you need to learn the ins and outs of malting.  For example: You can malt grain to increase sugar content, and you can malt in such a way the will enhance enzymes or kill enzymes in grains.

                                Robert L. Bliven 

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