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Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

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  • RLB
    White Bear: So far, I have read about 3 oat beers and one oat liquor, and that is made in the UK if  remembered correctly.  Oats might be what I am looking
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 2, 2013
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      White Bear:

      So far, I have read about 3 oat beers and one oat liquor, and that is made in the UK if  remembered correctly.  Oats might be what I am looking for as a way to stand out when my goal is reached of one day opening a micro-distillery.  In my area corn and oats are a major agriculture commodities that are grown to sell rather than use, so my ingredients would come directly from the farm.  Just wish they grew wheat, barley, and rye in this area.  Will have to look into buckwheat too.

      Robert    






      From: White Bear <sha_man_1@...>
      To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2013 5:38 AM
      Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

       
      ZBob-
        Thanks for the information, explanation and graph, I'm going to have to do a few graphs myself.
        Do you or anyone else know where there is an Oatmeal Whiskey recipe, this sounds intriguing.
      WB
       
       

      From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
      To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 5:55 PM
      Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
       
      Robert, I'm not sure where you heard the bit about boiling point of a
      mixture "freezing" at the boiling point of each volatile liquid in the
      mixture (I'm assuming until that specific liquids is all boiled off?),
      but that's not how boiling points work, and operating on that assumption
      will just drive you crazy.

      As determined by Roualt's law, the boiling point of a mixture of
      volatile liquids is determined solely by the mass and molecular weight
      of each (and all) compound, and the atmospheric pressure, and the
      composition of the vapor boiled off is also determined by those same
      factors. As boiling progresses, the composition of the boiling wash
      changes gradually, so the boiling point also changes gradually.

      Contrary to some practices, I am an experienced potstiller that does use
      a head thermometer, although I'd never use it to make cuts on an unknown
      wash, because different washes benefit from cuts at different
      temperatures. For the sake of general information, I've graphed a lot of
      still run head temperatures with time, and once the wash boils, the
      curve is always as smooth as I expect it to be.

      The best model to understand how the curve is continuous is to look at a
      graph of boiling points and percentages for a simple binary mixture of
      ethanol and water. Yes, it's a first approximation of wash behavior, but
      it's a pretty darned good first approximation.

      http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/alcoholvaporCelsius.gif

      The blue curve represents the percentage of ethanol in the liquid over
      the range of boiling points, and the red curve represents the percentage
      of ethanol in the vapor that boiled off at that boiling point.

      From that curve, if you have a 10% wash, it will boil at ~93C (199F) and
      as the percent of ethanol in the wash approaches zero, the temperature
      of the wash will approach 100C (212 F). As long as the mixture is
      boiling, you have absolutely no control over its temperature; turning up
      the power only makes vapor faster.

      Just as a very very general idea, and because I'm on the road and don't
      have access to my files (but I do have some graphs in my book), for the
      grocery store wine I distilled in my coffeepot still, foreshots and
      heads were up to ~91C (196F) and hearts were 91-94C (196-201F).
      Everything after that was tails, which I still collect and distill again
      with other junk alcohol.

      I know a few people who have made oat whiskey. I'm not sure why more
      don't.

      Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

      --- In mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com, RLB wrote:
      >
      > I am a newbie to distillation, 6 total stripping runs, and not not one
      finish run to date. My family were not moonshiners, and with AFT and
      TTB getting a woody every time they think someone is Moonshining I will
      pass on trying to become a still hand. This is all a new learning
      process for me know matter how much I read.
      >
      > I use a thermometer to see where my boiling points are in my new pot
      still. All of my web site reading states that temps will freeze every
      time it hits a new alcohol boiling point no matter how high you set your
      heat. For me Ethanol starts to boil from 191 to 193, so I sniff the
      end of my condenser to define all of the different cuts in a stripping
      run. For my stripping runs, my fore-shots will curl your toes, heads
      has an unpleasant strong smell, hearts has a strong smell with a sweet
      bouquet, and tails smell like a wet dirty sock. What I mean by strong
      smell: Take a sniff of +50% abv alcohol vapor. Who needs to ever drink
      when those vapors will make you as drunk without ever having a hangover.
      Yes, it might be true that most experienced people do not use a
      thermometer in a pot still, but I find knowing where the different
      boiling points are as being very helpful in my learning process. So
      far, all of my experience involves sugar washes,
      > and my first grain experiment will most likely be with oatmeal. I
      find it interesting that there is so little mention of oats. Oats have
      30 to 33 percent sugar, but very little spirits come from oats
      >
      > Robert
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: bleu jeanzz
      > To: "mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com"
      > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:39 PM
      > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
      >
      >
      >
      > Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer. They are
      worthless in a pot still. Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel. I
      don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for
      anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      >



    • cnapier@att.net
      Figured a thermometer would be too easy.....:) Got a 2 gallon pot still.......stove top setup. Just going to start the heat low.........watch the pot........
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 2, 2013
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        Figured a thermometer would be too easy.....:)

        Got a 2 gallon pot still.......stove top setup.

        Just going to start the heat low.........watch the pot........

        Turn the heat up until I get the 2 drops per second.

        The follow the procedures below.

        This will be my second sugar shine run.

        And I'm learning quick,,,,,

        Many thanks,
        Claude




        From: bleu jeanzz <Bleujeanzz@...>
        To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sat, February 2, 2013 5:05:42 PM
        Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

         

        I do it the way most pot stillers do, slowly heat wash, when it starts to drip run it at one to 2 drops per second, till you take the fores, then bump the heat to 4 drops per second, or a broken stream, about the same think IMO.  Then when heads are done crank it up to barely a steady stream and keep it there thru hearts.  Then crank it to the max of your condensor to harvest the tails for future use, or forget em and drain tank when cooled.

        Trying to run a pot with a thermometer is nonsense, if someone wants to believe it helps em, fine, but its still nonsense.

        bleu


        From: "cnapier@..." <cnapier@...>
        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 2:04 PM
        Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

         
        Excellent info......

        So no thermometer?

        Where do you set the initial temp setting at then?

        Thanks,
        Claude




        From: bleu jeanzz <Bleujeanzz@...>
        To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Fri, February 1, 2013 3:21:45 PM
        Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

         
        Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer.  They are worthless in a pot still.  Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel.  I don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.



        From: RLB <last2blast@...>
        To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 5:13 PM
        Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

         
        One of the biggest questions I have about temps is the difference between stripping temps and finish temps?  My wash starts at around 7 to 10% abv.  I toss from 150 to 184, and collect 185 to 205.  Water is greatly reduce in stripping, so what kind of temp cuts can I expect in my first and/or second finish runs.  One would think the boil temps would be much closer to their boiling points after a stripping run in a pot still.

        Robert



        From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 6:14 PM
        Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

         
        To answer this quaestion meaningfully, I need to find out if we are talking about potstills or reflux stills. In a typical (and ideal) potstill, the head temperature is very close to the boiling point of the wash, and if the wash isn't boiling yet, the head temperature has no meaning other than you are not distilling yet.

        In a reflux still the head thermometer is measuring the temperature of the mostly-separated vapor at the top of the column, after it has been condensed and re-vaporized a number of times. This temperature will always be lower than the temperature of the boiling wash way down in the boiler.

        No matter which kind of still you are operating, you only need to pitch the foreshots on the first distillation. Foreshots are the really bad-tasting and -smelling part that contains most of the acetone, acetaldehyde. methanol, and ethyl acetate. After the foreshots come the heads, which you can drink (and do, when you buy cheap whiskey) but it will taste a bit harsh and you'll get more headaches (again, just like cheap whiskey, and for the same reason). It's up to your nose and palate how much you set aside as heads.

        As far as what comes off before 74C (and I'm guessing you really mean 78C, the boiling point of pure ethanol), in a potstill, absolutely nothing, because while pure ethanol boils at ~78C, the stuff you have in your boiler is a far cry from pure ethanol, boiling in the low 90's probably. That means at 74, or 78, your boiler isn't boiling yet and you're not distilling yet, at least not at a rate that will let you finish a still run in less than a couple of weeks, or maybe months. Ok, on some fruit washes, you'll get 2 or 3 drops of some really vile stuff at lower head temps.

        It's a very commonly (and dearly) held misconception that if you hold the wash temperature at 78C, you'll get pure ethanol out, and it just doesn't happen that way.

        On the other hand, if you have a very good reflux still, and operate it well, you can see product coming out at very slightly over 78C, if you are tuning for "pure" (really ~95.6%). If you tune your reflux still to get a lower head temperature, your output will be less "pure" (read "more flavor").

        Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Paolo Cucinotta wrote:
        >
        > wouldnt this be coming off sub 74C degrees so wouldnt it contain methadone?
        > I have the same question.
        >
        > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:34 AM, RonaldP wrote:
        >
        > > **
        > >
        > >
        > > If I'm distilling a wash and collecting and discarding the head. If I
        > > re-distill whats left, do I discard the first 50ml of the head again or
        > > not. If your running a wash for flavor, dose your distillation temp run a
        > > little higher than if your just going for higher ABV% ?
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >






      • tgfoitwoods
        Robert, Go here http://www.artisan-distiller.net/phpBB3/search.php and search for keyword oat . You ll find quite a bit. Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller ...
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 2, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          Robert,

          Go here http://www.artisan-distiller.net/phpBB3/search.php
          and search for keyword "oat". You'll find quite a bit.

          Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB wrote:
          >
          > White Bear:
          >
          > So far, I have read about 3 oat beers and one oat liquor, and that is
          made in the UK if remembered correctly. Oats might be what I
          am looking for as a way to stand out when my goal is reached of one day
          opening a micro-distillery. In my area corn and oats are a major
          agriculture commodities that are grown to sell rather than use, so my
          ingredients would come directly from the farm. Just wish they grew
          wheat, barley, and rye in this area. Will have to look into
          buckwheat too.
          >
          > Robert  Â
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: White Bear
          > To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com"
          > Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2013 5:38 AM
          > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
          >
          >
          > Â
          > ZBob-
          > Â Thanks for the information, explanation and graph, I'm going to
          have to do a few graphs myself.
          > Â Do you or anyone else know where there is an Oatmeal Whiskey
          recipe, this sounds intriguing.
          > WB
          > Â
          > Â
          >
          > From: tgfoitwoods
          > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 5:55 PM
          > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
          >
          > Â
          > Robert, I'm not sure where you heard the bit about boiling point of a
          > mixture "freezing" at the boiling point of each volatile liquid in the
          > mixture (I'm assuming until that specific liquids is all boiled off?),
          > but that's not how boiling points work, and operating on that
          assumption
          > will just drive you crazy.
          >
          > As determined by Roualt's law, the boiling point of a mixture of
          > volatile liquids is determined solely by the mass and molecular weight
          > of each (and all) compound, and the atmospheric pressure, and the
          > composition of the vapor boiled off is also determined by those same
          > factors. As boiling progresses, the composition of the boiling wash
          > changes gradually, so the boiling point also changes gradually.
          >
          > Contrary to some practices, I am an experienced potstiller that does
          use
          > a head thermometer, although I'd never use it to make cuts on an
          unknown
          > wash, because different washes benefit from cuts at different
          > temperatures. For the sake of general information, I've graphed a lot
          of
          > still run head temperatures with time, and once the wash boils, the
          > curve is always as smooth as I expect it to be.
          >
          > The best model to understand how the curve is continuous is to look at
          a
          > graph of boiling points and percentages for a simple binary mixture
          of
          > ethanol and water. Yes, it's a first approximation of wash behavior,
          but
          > it's a pretty darned good first approximation.
          >
          > http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/alcoholvaporCelsius.gif
          >
          > The blue curve represents the percentage of ethanol in the liquid over
          > the range of boiling points, and the red curve represents the
          percentage
          > of ethanol in the vapor that boiled off at that boiling point.
          >
          > From that curve, if you have a 10% wash, it will boil at ~93C (199F)
          and
          > as the percent of ethanol in the wash approaches zero, the temperature
          > of the wash will approach 100C (212 F). As long as the mixture is
          > boiling, you have absolutely no control over its temperature; turning
          up
          > the power only makes vapor faster.
          >
          > Just as a very very general idea, and because I'm on the road and
          don't
          > have access to my files (but I do have some graphs in my book), for
          the
          > grocery store wine I distilled in my coffeepot still, foreshots and
          > heads were up to ~91C (196F) and hearts were 91-94C (196-201F).
          > Everything after that was tails, which I still collect and distill
          again
          > with other junk alcohol.
          >
          > I know a few people who have made oat whiskey. I'm not sure why more
          > don't.
          >
          > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
          >
          > --- In mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com, RLB wrote:
          > >
          > > I am a newbie to distillation, 6 total stripping runs, and not not
          one
          > finish run to date. My family were not moonshiners, and with AFT and
          > TTB getting a woody every time they think someone is Moonshining I
          will
          > pass on trying to become a still hand. This is all a new learning
          > process for me know matter how much I read.
          > >
          > > I use a thermometer to see where my boiling points are in my new pot
          > still. All of my web site reading states that temps will freeze every
          > time it hits a new alcohol boiling point no matter how high you set
          your
          > heat. For me Ethanol starts to boil from 191 to 193, so I sniff the
          > end of my condenser to define all of the different cuts in a stripping
          > run. For my stripping runs, my fore-shots will curl your toes, heads
          > has an unpleasant strong smell, hearts has a strong smell with a sweet
          > bouquet, and tails smell like a wet dirty sock. What I mean by strong
          > smell: Take a sniff of +50% abv alcohol vapor. Who needs to ever
          drink
          > when those vapors will make you as drunk without ever having a
          hangover.
          > Yes, it might be true that most experienced people do not use a
          > thermometer in a pot still, but I find knowing where the different
          > boiling points are as being very helpful in my learning process. So
          > far, all of my experience involves sugar washes,
          > > and my first grain experiment will most likely be with oatmeal. I
          > find it interesting that there is so little mention of oats. Oats
          have
          > 30 to 33 percent sugar, but very little spirits come from oats
          > >
          > > Robert
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ________________________________
          > > From: bleu jeanzz
          > > To: "mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com"
          > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:39 PM
          > > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer. They are
          > worthless in a pot still. Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel. I
          > don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for
          > anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ________________________________
          > >
          >
        • White Bear
          Robert-   Good luck in you micro-distillery venture, I hope it works out for you.  I ll have to do some research for oat based liquor thanks. WB
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 2, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Robert-
              Good luck in you micro-distillery venture, I hope it works out for you.  I'll have to do some research for oat based liquor thanks.
            WB
             
             

            From: RLB <last2blast@...>
            To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2013 9:06 AM
            Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
             
            White Bear: So far, I have read about 3 oat beers and one oat liquor, and that is made in the UK if  remembered correctly.  Oats might be what I am looking for as a way to stand out when my goal is reached of one day opening a micro-distillery.  In my area corn and oats are a major agriculture commodities that are grown to sell rather than use, so my ingredients would come directly from the farm.  Just wish they grew wheat, barley, and rye in this area.  Will have to look into buckwheat too. Robert    


            From: White Bear <sha_man_1@...>
            To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2013 5:38 AM
            Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
             
            ZBob-
              Thanks for the information, explanation and graph, I'm going to have to do a few graphs myself.
              Do you or anyone else know where there is an Oatmeal Whiskey recipe, this sounds intriguing.
            WB
             
             

            From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 5:55 PM
            Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
             
            Robert, I'm not sure where you heard the bit about boiling point of a mixture "freezing" at the boiling point of each volatile liquid in the mixture (I'm assuming until that specific liquids is all boiled off?), but that's not how boiling points work, and operating on that assumption will just drive you crazy. As determined by Roualt's law, the boiling point of a mixture of volatile liquids is determined solely by the mass and molecular weight of each (and all) compound, and the atmospheric pressure, and the composition of the vapor boiled off is also determined by those same factors. As boiling progresses, the composition of the boiling wash changes gradually, so the boiling point also changes gradually. Contrary to some practices, I am an experienced potstiller that does use a head thermometer, although I'd never use it to make cuts on an unknown wash, because different washes benefit from cuts at different temperatures. For the sake of general information, I've graphed a lot of still run head temperatures with time, and once the wash boils, the curve is always as smooth as I expect it to be. The best model to understand how the curve is continuous is to look at a graph of boiling points and percentages for a simple binary mixture of ethanol and water. Yes, it's a first approximation of wash behavior, but it's a pretty darned good first approximation. http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/alcoholvaporCelsius.gif The blue curve represents the percentage of ethanol in the liquid over the range of boiling points, and the red curve represents the percentage of ethanol in the vapor that boiled off at that boiling point. From that curve, if you have a 10% wash, it will boil at ~93C (199F) and as the percent of ethanol in the wash approaches zero, the temperature of the wash will approach 100C (212 F). As long as the mixture is boiling, you have absolutely no control over its temperature; turning up the power only makes vapor faster. Just as a very very general idea, and because I'm on the road and don't have access to my files (but I do have some graphs in my book), for the grocery store wine I distilled in my coffeepot still, foreshots and heads were up to ~91C (196F) and hearts were 91-94C (196-201F). Everything after that was tails, which I still collect and distill again with other junk alcohol. I know a few people who have made oat whiskey. I'm not sure why more don't. Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
            --- In mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com, RLB wrote: > > I am a newbie to distillation, 6 total stripping runs, and not not one finish run to date. My family were not moonshiners, and with AFT and TTB getting a woody every time they think someone is Moonshining I will pass on trying to become a still hand. This is all a new learning process for me know matter how much I read. > > I use a thermometer to see where my boiling points are in my new pot still. All of my web site reading states that temps will freeze every time it hits a new alcohol boiling point no matter how high you set your heat. For me Ethanol starts to boil from 191 to 193, so I sniff the end of my condenser to define all of the different cuts in a stripping run. For my stripping runs, my fore-shots will curl your toes, heads has an unpleasant strong smell, hearts has a strong smell with a sweet bouquet, and tails smell like a wet dirty sock. What I mean by strong smell: Take a sniff of +50% abv alcohol vapor. Who needs to ever drink when those vapors will make you as drunk without ever having a hangover. Yes, it might be true that most experienced people do not use a thermometer in a pot still, but I find knowing where the different boiling points are as being very helpful in my learning process. So far, all of my experience involves sugar washes, > and my first grain experiment will most likely be with oatmeal. I find it interesting that there is so little mention of oats. Oats have 30 to 33 percent sugar, but very little spirits come from oats > > Robert > > > > > ________________________________ > From: bleu jeanzz > To: "mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com" > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:39 PM > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ?? > > > > Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer. They are worthless in a pot still. Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel. I don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for anything other than entertainment value on a pot still. > > > > ________________________________ >
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