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Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

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  • RLB
    I am a newbie to distillation, 6 total stripping runs, and not not one finish run to date.  My family were not moonshiners, and with AFT and TTB getting a
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 1, 2013
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      I am a newbie to distillation, 6 total stripping runs, and not not one finish run to date.  My family were not moonshiners, and with AFT and TTB getting a woody every time they think someone is Moonshining I will pass on trying to become a still hand.  This is all a new learning process for me know matter how much I read.

      I use a thermometer to see where my boiling points are in my new pot still.  All of my web site reading states that temps will freeze every time it hits a new alcohol boiling point no matter how high you set your heat.   For me Ethanol starts to boil from 191 to 193, so I sniff the end of my condenser to define all of the different cuts in a stripping run.  For my stripping runs, my fore-shots will curl your toes, heads has an unpleasant strong smell, hearts has a strong smell with a sweet bouquet, and tails smell like a wet dirty sock.  What I mean by strong smell: Take a sniff of +50% abv alcohol vapor.  Who needs to ever drink when those vapors will make you as drunk without ever having a hangover.  Yes, it might be true that most experienced people do not use a thermometer in a pot still, but I find knowing where the different boiling points are as being very helpful in my learning process.  So far, all of my experience involves sugar washes, and my first grain experiment will most likely be with oatmeal.  I find it interesting that there is so little mention of oats.  Oats have 30 to 33 percent sugar, but very little spirits come from oats

      Robert 



      From: bleu jeanzz <Bleujeanzz@...>
      To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:39 PM
      Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

       
      Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer.  They are worthless in a pot still.  Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel.  I don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.





    • White Bear
      Claude-   I always use a thermometer with my pot still, It works great if placed just before where the product leaves the still into the condensor and
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 1, 2013
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        Claude-
        � I always use a thermometer with my pot still, It works great if placed�just before where the product leaves the still into the condensor�and monitored correctly.� Design your pot still with the placement in mind and go for it.� Remember, NOTHING IS WRITTEN IN STONE AND EVERYONES RESULTS WILL BE DIFFERENT. Even mine are not exactly duplicated everytime.
        WB

        From: "cnapier@..."
        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 4:04 PM
        Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
        Excellent info...... So no thermometer? Where do you set the initial temp setting at then? Thanks, Claude

        From: bleu jeanzz
        To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com"
        Sent: Fri, February 1, 2013 3:21:45 PM
        Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
        Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer.� They are worthless in a pot still.� Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel.� I don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.


        From: RLB
        To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com"
        Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 5:13 PM
        Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
        One of the biggest questions I have about temps is the difference between stripping temps and finish temps?� My wash starts at around 7 to 10% abv.� I toss from 150 to 184, and collect 185 to 205.� Water is greatly reduce in stripping, so what kind of temp cuts can I expect in my first and/or second finish runs.� One would think the boil temps would be much closer to their boiling points after a stripping run in a pot still. Robert


        From: tgfoitwoods
        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 6:14 PM
        Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
        To answer this quaestion meaningfully, I need to find out if we are talking about potstills or reflux stills. In a typical (and ideal) potstill, the head temperature is very close to the boiling point of the wash, and if the wash isn't boiling yet, the head temperature has no meaning other than you are not distilling yet. In a reflux still the head thermometer is measuring the temperature of the mostly-separated vapor at the top of the column, after it has been condensed and re-vaporized a number of times. This temperature will always be lower than the temperature of the boiling wash way down in the boiler. No matter which kind of still you are operating, you only need to pitch the foreshots on the first distillation. Foreshots are the really bad-tasting and -smelling part that contains most of the acetone, acetaldehyde. methanol, and ethyl acetate. After the foreshots come the heads, which you can drink (and do, when you buy cheap whiskey) but it will taste a bit harsh and you'll get more headaches (again, just like cheap whiskey, and for the same reason). It's up to your nose and palate how much you set aside as heads. As far as what comes off before 74C (and I'm guessing you really mean 78C, the boiling point of pure ethanol), in a potstill, absolutely nothing, because while pure ethanol boils at ~78C, the stuff you have in your boiler is a far cry from pure ethanol, boiling in the low 90's probably. That means at 74, or 78, your boiler isn't boiling yet and you're not distilling yet, at least not at a rate that will let you finish a still run in less than a couple of weeks, or maybe months. Ok, on some fruit washes, you'll get 2 or 3 drops of some really vile stuff at lower head temps. It's a very commonly (and dearly) held misconception that if you hold the wash temperature at 78C, you'll get pure ethanol out, and it just doesn't happen that way.
        On the other hand, if you have a very good reflux still, and operate it well, you can see product coming out at very slightly over 78C, if you are tuning for "pure" (really ~95.6%). If you tune your reflux still to get a lower head temperature, your output will be less "pure" (read "more flavor"). Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Paolo Cucinotta wrote: > > wouldnt this be coming off sub 74C degrees so wouldnt it contain methadone? > I have the same question. > > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:34 AM, RonaldP wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > If I'm distilling a wash and collecting and discarding the head. If I > > re-distill whats left, do I discard the first 50ml of the head again or > > not. If your running a wash for flavor, dose your distillation temp run a > > little higher than if your just going for higher ABV% ? > > > > > > >
      • tgfoitwoods
        Robert, I m not sure where you heard the bit about boiling point of a mixture freezing at the boiling point of each volatile liquid in the mixture (I m
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 1, 2013
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          Robert, I'm not sure where you heard the bit about boiling point of a
          mixture "freezing" at the boiling point of each volatile liquid in the
          mixture (I'm assuming until that specific liquids is all boiled off?),
          but that's not how boiling points work, and operating on that assumption
          will just drive you crazy.

          As determined by Roualt's law, the boiling point of a mixture of
          volatile liquids is determined solely by the mass and molecular weight
          of each (and all) compound, and the atmospheric pressure, and the
          composition of the vapor boiled off is also determined by those same
          factors. As boiling progresses, the composition of the boiling wash
          changes gradually, so the boiling point also changes gradually.

          Contrary to some practices, I am an experienced potstiller that does use
          a head thermometer, although I'd never use it to make cuts on an unknown
          wash, because different washes benefit from cuts at different
          temperatures. For the sake of general information, I've graphed a lot of
          still run head temperatures with time, and once the wash boils, the
          curve is always as smooth as I expect it to be.

          The best model to understand how the curve is continuous is to look at a
          graph of boiling points and percentages for a simple binary mixture of
          ethanol and water. Yes, it's a first approximation of wash behavior, but
          it's a pretty darned good first approximation.

          http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/alcoholvaporCelsius.gif

          The blue curve represents the percentage of ethanol in the liquid over
          the range of boiling points, and the red curve represents the percentage
          of ethanol in the vapor that boiled off at that boiling point.

          From that curve, if you have a 10% wash, it will boil at ~93C (199F) and
          as the percent of ethanol in the wash approaches zero, the temperature
          of the wash will approach 100C (212 F). As long as the mixture is
          boiling, you have absolutely no control over its temperature; turning up
          the power only makes vapor faster.

          Just as a very very general idea, and because I'm on the road and don't
          have access to my files (but I do have some graphs in my book), for the
          grocery store wine I distilled in my coffeepot still, foreshots and
          heads were up to ~91C (196F) and hearts were 91-94C (196-201F).
          Everything after that was tails, which I still collect and distill again
          with other junk alcohol.

          I know a few people who have made oat whiskey. I'm not sure why more
          don't.

          Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB wrote:
          >
          > I am a newbie to distillation, 6 total stripping runs, and not not one
          finish run to date. My family were not moonshiners, and with AFT and
          TTB getting a woody every time they think someone is Moonshining I will
          pass on trying to become a still hand. This is all a new learning
          process for me know matter how much I read.
          >
          > I use a thermometer to see where my boiling points are in my new pot
          still. All of my web site reading states that temps will freeze every
          time it hits a new alcohol boiling point no matter how high you set your
          heat. For me Ethanol starts to boil from 191 to 193, so I sniff the
          end of my condenser to define all of the different cuts in a stripping
          run. For my stripping runs, my fore-shots will curl your toes, heads
          has an unpleasant strong smell, hearts has a strong smell with a sweet
          bouquet, and tails smell like a wet dirty sock. What I mean by strong
          smell: Take a sniff of +50% abv alcohol vapor. Who needs to ever drink
          when those vapors will make you as drunk without ever having a hangover.
          Yes, it might be true that most experienced people do not use a
          thermometer in a pot still, but I find knowing where the different
          boiling points are as being very helpful in my learning process. So
          far, all of my experience involves sugar washes,
          > and my first grain experiment will most likely be with oatmeal. I
          find it interesting that there is so little mention of oats. Oats have
          30 to 33 percent sugar, but very little spirits come from oats
          >
          > Robert
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: bleu jeanzz
          > To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com"
          > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:39 PM
          > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
          >
          >
          >
          > Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer. They are
          worthless in a pot still. Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel. I
          don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for
          anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.
          >
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          >
        • bleu jeanzz
          I do it the way most pot stillers do, slowly heat wash, when it starts to drip run it at one to 2 drops per second, till you take the fores, then bump the heat
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 1, 2013
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            I do it the way most pot stillers do, slowly heat wash, when it starts to drip run it at one to 2 drops per second, till you take the fores, then bump the heat to 4 drops per second, or a broken stream, about the same think IMO.  Then when heads are done crank it up to barely a steady stream and keep it there thru hearts.  Then crank it to the max of your condensor to harvest the tails for future use, or forget em and drain tank when cooled.

            Trying to run a pot with a thermometer is nonsense, if someone wants to believe it helps em, fine, but its still nonsense.

            bleu


            From: "cnapier@..." <cnapier@...>
            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 2:04 PM
            Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

             
            Excellent info......

            So no thermometer?

            Where do you set the initial temp setting at then?

            Thanks,
            Claude




            From: bleu jeanzz <Bleujeanzz@...>
            To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Fri, February 1, 2013 3:21:45 PM
            Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

             
            Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer.  They are worthless in a pot still.  Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel.  I don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.



            From: RLB <last2blast@...>
            To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 5:13 PM
            Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

             
            One of the biggest questions I have about temps is the difference between stripping temps and finish temps?  My wash starts at around 7 to 10% abv.  I toss from 150 to 184, and collect 185 to 205.  Water is greatly reduce in stripping, so what kind of temp cuts can I expect in my first and/or second finish runs.  One would think the boil temps would be much closer to their boiling points after a stripping run in a pot still.

            Robert



            From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 6:14 PM
            Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

             
            To answer this quaestion meaningfully, I need to find out if we are talking about potstills or reflux stills. In a typical (and ideal) potstill, the head temperature is very close to the boiling point of the wash, and if the wash isn't boiling yet, the head temperature has no meaning other than you are not distilling yet.

            In a reflux still the head thermometer is measuring the temperature of the mostly-separated vapor at the top of the column, after it has been condensed and re-vaporized a number of times. This temperature will always be lower than the temperature of the boiling wash way down in the boiler.

            No matter which kind of still you are operating, you only need to pitch the foreshots on the first distillation. Foreshots are the really bad-tasting and -smelling part that contains most of the acetone, acetaldehyde. methanol, and ethyl acetate. After the foreshots come the heads, which you can drink (and do, when you buy cheap whiskey) but it will taste a bit harsh and you'll get more headaches (again, just like cheap whiskey, and for the same reason). It's up to your nose and palate how much you set aside as heads.

            As far as what comes off before 74C (and I'm guessing you really mean 78C, the boiling point of pure ethanol), in a potstill, absolutely nothing, because while pure ethanol boils at ~78C, the stuff you have in your boiler is a far cry from pure ethanol, boiling in the low 90's probably. That means at 74, or 78, your boiler isn't boiling yet and you're not distilling yet, at least not at a rate that will let you finish a still run in less than a couple of weeks, or maybe months. Ok, on some fruit washes, you'll get 2 or 3 drops of some really vile stuff at lower head temps.

            It's a very commonly (and dearly) held misconception that if you hold the wash temperature at 78C, you'll get pure ethanol out, and it just doesn't happen that way.

            On the other hand, if you have a very good reflux still, and operate it well, you can see product coming out at very slightly over 78C, if you are tuning for "pure" (really ~95.6%). If you tune your reflux still to get a lower head temperature, your output will be less "pure" (read "more flavor").

            Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Paolo Cucinotta wrote:
            >
            > wouldnt this be coming off sub 74C degrees so wouldnt it contain methadone?
            > I have the same question.
            >
            > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:34 AM, RonaldP wrote:
            >
            > > **
            > >
            > >
            > > If I'm distilling a wash and collecting and discarding the head. If I
            > > re-distill whats left, do I discard the first 50ml of the head again or
            > > not. If your running a wash for flavor, dose your distillation temp run a
            > > little higher than if your just going for higher ABV% ?
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >






          • cnapier@att.net
            And this is what makes it art..... ... Awesome hobby......I ve done a sugar shine wash and run. And it humbles you until you get it correct. I ve been reading
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 1, 2013
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              And this is what makes it art.....

              :)

              Awesome hobby......I've done a sugar shine wash and run.

              And it humbles you until you get it correct.

              I've been reading for 6 months on all aspects of moonshine.

              And every time I log on I get educated or confused.

              Love it.

              Claude



              From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
              To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, February 1, 2013 6:55:55 PM
              Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

               

              Robert, I'm not sure where you heard the bit about boiling point of a
              mixture "freezing" at the boiling point of each volatile liquid in the
              mixture (I'm assuming until that specific liquids is all boiled off?),
              but that's not how boiling points work, and operating on that assumption
              will just drive you crazy.

              As determined by Roualt's law, the boiling point of a mixture of
              volatile liquids is determined solely by the mass and molecular weight
              of each (and all) compound, and the atmospheric pressure, and the
              composition of the vapor boiled off is also determined by those same
              factors. As boiling progresses, the composition of the boiling wash
              changes gradually, so the boiling point also changes gradually.

              Contrary to some practices, I am an experienced potstiller that does use
              a head thermometer, although I'd never use it to make cuts on an unknown
              wash, because different washes benefit from cuts at different
              temperatures. For the sake of general information, I've graphed a lot of
              still run head temperatures with time, and once the wash boils, the
              curve is always as smooth as I expect it to be.

              The best model to understand how the curve is continuous is to look at a
              graph of boiling points and percentages for a simple binary mixture of
              ethanol and water. Yes, it's a first approximation of wash behavior, but
              it's a pretty darned good first approximation.

              http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/alcoholvaporCelsius.gif

              The blue curve represents the percentage of ethanol in the liquid over
              the range of boiling points, and the red curve represents the percentage
              of ethanol in the vapor that boiled off at that boiling point.

              From that curve, if you have a 10% wash, it will boil at ~93C (199F) and
              as the percent of ethanol in the wash approaches zero, the temperature
              of the wash will approach 100C (212 F). As long as the mixture is
              boiling, you have absolutely no control over its temperature; turning up
              the power only makes vapor faster.

              Just as a very very general idea, and because I'm on the road and don't
              have access to my files (but I do have some graphs in my book), for the
              grocery store wine I distilled in my coffeepot still, foreshots and
              heads were up to ~91C (196F) and hearts were 91-94C (196-201F).
              Everything after that was tails, which I still collect and distill again
              with other junk alcohol.

              I know a few people who have made oat whiskey. I'm not sure why more
              don't.

              Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB wrote:
              >
              > I am a newbie to distillation, 6 total stripping runs, and not not one
              finish run to date. My family were not moonshiners, and with AFT and
              TTB getting a woody every time they think someone is Moonshining I will
              pass on trying to become a still hand. This is all a new learning
              process for me know matter how much I read.
              >
              > I use a thermometer to see where my boiling points are in my new pot
              still. All of my web site reading states that temps will freeze every
              time it hits a new alcohol boiling point no matter how high you set your
              heat. For me Ethanol starts to boil from 191 to 193, so I sniff the
              end of my condenser to define all of the different cuts in a stripping
              run. For my stripping runs, my fore-shots will curl your toes, heads
              has an unpleasant strong smell, hearts has a strong smell with a sweet
              bouquet, and tails smell like a wet dirty sock. What I mean by strong
              smell: Take a sniff of +50% abv alcohol vapor. Who needs to ever drink
              when those vapors will make you as drunk without ever having a hangover.
              Yes, it might be true that most experienced people do not use a
              thermometer in a pot still, but I find knowing where the different
              boiling points are as being very helpful in my learning process. So
              far, all of my experience involves sugar washes,
              > and my first grain experiment will most likely be with oatmeal. I
              find it interesting that there is so little mention of oats. Oats have
              30 to 33 percent sugar, but very little spirits come from oats
              >
              > Robert
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: bleu jeanzz
              > To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com"
              > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:39 PM
              > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
              >
              >
              >
              > Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer. They are
              worthless in a pot still. Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel. I
              don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for
              anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              >

            • White Bear
              ZBob-   Thanks for the information, explanation and graph, I m going to have to do a few graphs myself.   Do you or anyone else know where there is an
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 2, 2013
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                ZBob-
                  Thanks for the information, explanation and graph, I'm going to have to do a few graphs myself.
                  Do you or anyone else know where there is an Oatmeal Whiskey recipe, this sounds intriguing.
                WB
                 
                 

                From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 5:55 PM
                Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                 
                Robert, I'm not sure where you heard the bit about boiling point of a
                mixture "freezing" at the boiling point of each volatile liquid in the
                mixture (I'm assuming until that specific liquids is all boiled off?),
                but that's not how boiling points work, and operating on that assumption
                will just drive you crazy.

                As determined by Roualt's law, the boiling point of a mixture of
                volatile liquids is determined solely by the mass and molecular weight
                of each (and all) compound, and the atmospheric pressure, and the
                composition of the vapor boiled off is also determined by those same
                factors. As boiling progresses, the composition of the boiling wash
                changes gradually, so the boiling point also changes gradually.

                Contrary to some practices, I am an experienced potstiller that does use
                a head thermometer, although I'd never use it to make cuts on an unknown
                wash, because different washes benefit from cuts at different
                temperatures. For the sake of general information, I've graphed a lot of
                still run head temperatures with time, and once the wash boils, the
                curve is always as smooth as I expect it to be.

                The best model to understand how the curve is continuous is to look at a
                graph of boiling points and percentages for a simple binary mixture of
                ethanol and water. Yes, it's a first approximation of wash behavior, but
                it's a pretty darned good first approximation.

                http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/alcoholvaporCelsius.gif

                The blue curve represents the percentage of ethanol in the liquid over
                the range of boiling points, and the red curve represents the percentage
                of ethanol in the vapor that boiled off at that boiling point.

                From that curve, if you have a 10% wash, it will boil at ~93C (199F) and
                as the percent of ethanol in the wash approaches zero, the temperature
                of the wash will approach 100C (212 F). As long as the mixture is
                boiling, you have absolutely no control over its temperature; turning up
                the power only makes vapor faster.

                Just as a very very general idea, and because I'm on the road and don't
                have access to my files (but I do have some graphs in my book), for the
                grocery store wine I distilled in my coffeepot still, foreshots and
                heads were up to ~91C (196F) and hearts were 91-94C (196-201F).
                Everything after that was tails, which I still collect and distill again
                with other junk alcohol.

                I know a few people who have made oat whiskey. I'm not sure why more
                don't.

                Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                --- In mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com, RLB wrote:
                >
                > I am a newbie to distillation, 6 total stripping runs, and not not one
                finish run to date. My family were not moonshiners, and with AFT and
                TTB getting a woody every time they think someone is Moonshining I will
                pass on trying to become a still hand. This is all a new learning
                process for me know matter how much I read.
                >
                > I use a thermometer to see where my boiling points are in my new pot
                still. All of my web site reading states that temps will freeze every
                time it hits a new alcohol boiling point no matter how high you set your
                heat. For me Ethanol starts to boil from 191 to 193, so I sniff the
                end of my condenser to define all of the different cuts in a stripping
                run. For my stripping runs, my fore-shots will curl your toes, heads
                has an unpleasant strong smell, hearts has a strong smell with a sweet
                bouquet, and tails smell like a wet dirty sock. What I mean by strong
                smell: Take a sniff of +50% abv alcohol vapor. Who needs to ever drink
                when those vapors will make you as drunk without ever having a hangover.
                Yes, it might be true that most experienced people do not use a
                thermometer in a pot still, but I find knowing where the different
                boiling points are as being very helpful in my learning process. So
                far, all of my experience involves sugar washes,
                > and my first grain experiment will most likely be with oatmeal. I
                find it interesting that there is so little mention of oats. Oats have
                30 to 33 percent sugar, but very little spirits come from oats
                >
                > Robert
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: bleu jeanzz
                > To: "mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com"
                > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:39 PM
                > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                >
                >
                >
                > Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer. They are
                worthless in a pot still. Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel. I
                don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for
                anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.
                >
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                >

              • RLB
                White Bear: So far, I have read about 3 oat beers and one oat liquor, and that is made in the UK if  remembered correctly.  Oats might be what I am looking
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 2, 2013
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                  White Bear:

                  So far, I have read about 3 oat beers and one oat liquor, and that is made in the UK if  remembered correctly.  Oats might be what I am looking for as a way to stand out when my goal is reached of one day opening a micro-distillery.  In my area corn and oats are a major agriculture commodities that are grown to sell rather than use, so my ingredients would come directly from the farm.  Just wish they grew wheat, barley, and rye in this area.  Will have to look into buckwheat too.

                  Robert    






                  From: White Bear <sha_man_1@...>
                  To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2013 5:38 AM
                  Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                   
                  ZBob-
                    Thanks for the information, explanation and graph, I'm going to have to do a few graphs myself.
                    Do you or anyone else know where there is an Oatmeal Whiskey recipe, this sounds intriguing.
                  WB
                   
                   

                  From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                  To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 5:55 PM
                  Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                   
                  Robert, I'm not sure where you heard the bit about boiling point of a
                  mixture "freezing" at the boiling point of each volatile liquid in the
                  mixture (I'm assuming until that specific liquids is all boiled off?),
                  but that's not how boiling points work, and operating on that assumption
                  will just drive you crazy.

                  As determined by Roualt's law, the boiling point of a mixture of
                  volatile liquids is determined solely by the mass and molecular weight
                  of each (and all) compound, and the atmospheric pressure, and the
                  composition of the vapor boiled off is also determined by those same
                  factors. As boiling progresses, the composition of the boiling wash
                  changes gradually, so the boiling point also changes gradually.

                  Contrary to some practices, I am an experienced potstiller that does use
                  a head thermometer, although I'd never use it to make cuts on an unknown
                  wash, because different washes benefit from cuts at different
                  temperatures. For the sake of general information, I've graphed a lot of
                  still run head temperatures with time, and once the wash boils, the
                  curve is always as smooth as I expect it to be.

                  The best model to understand how the curve is continuous is to look at a
                  graph of boiling points and percentages for a simple binary mixture of
                  ethanol and water. Yes, it's a first approximation of wash behavior, but
                  it's a pretty darned good first approximation.

                  http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/alcoholvaporCelsius.gif

                  The blue curve represents the percentage of ethanol in the liquid over
                  the range of boiling points, and the red curve represents the percentage
                  of ethanol in the vapor that boiled off at that boiling point.

                  From that curve, if you have a 10% wash, it will boil at ~93C (199F) and
                  as the percent of ethanol in the wash approaches zero, the temperature
                  of the wash will approach 100C (212 F). As long as the mixture is
                  boiling, you have absolutely no control over its temperature; turning up
                  the power only makes vapor faster.

                  Just as a very very general idea, and because I'm on the road and don't
                  have access to my files (but I do have some graphs in my book), for the
                  grocery store wine I distilled in my coffeepot still, foreshots and
                  heads were up to ~91C (196F) and hearts were 91-94C (196-201F).
                  Everything after that was tails, which I still collect and distill again
                  with other junk alcohol.

                  I know a few people who have made oat whiskey. I'm not sure why more
                  don't.

                  Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                  --- In mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com, RLB wrote:
                  >
                  > I am a newbie to distillation, 6 total stripping runs, and not not one
                  finish run to date. My family were not moonshiners, and with AFT and
                  TTB getting a woody every time they think someone is Moonshining I will
                  pass on trying to become a still hand. This is all a new learning
                  process for me know matter how much I read.
                  >
                  > I use a thermometer to see where my boiling points are in my new pot
                  still. All of my web site reading states that temps will freeze every
                  time it hits a new alcohol boiling point no matter how high you set your
                  heat. For me Ethanol starts to boil from 191 to 193, so I sniff the
                  end of my condenser to define all of the different cuts in a stripping
                  run. For my stripping runs, my fore-shots will curl your toes, heads
                  has an unpleasant strong smell, hearts has a strong smell with a sweet
                  bouquet, and tails smell like a wet dirty sock. What I mean by strong
                  smell: Take a sniff of +50% abv alcohol vapor. Who needs to ever drink
                  when those vapors will make you as drunk without ever having a hangover.
                  Yes, it might be true that most experienced people do not use a
                  thermometer in a pot still, but I find knowing where the different
                  boiling points are as being very helpful in my learning process. So
                  far, all of my experience involves sugar washes,
                  > and my first grain experiment will most likely be with oatmeal. I
                  find it interesting that there is so little mention of oats. Oats have
                  30 to 33 percent sugar, but very little spirits come from oats
                  >
                  > Robert
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: bleu jeanzz
                  > To: "mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com"
                  > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:39 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer. They are
                  worthless in a pot still. Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel. I
                  don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for
                  anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  >



                • cnapier@att.net
                  Figured a thermometer would be too easy.....:) Got a 2 gallon pot still.......stove top setup. Just going to start the heat low.........watch the pot........
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 2, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Figured a thermometer would be too easy.....:)

                    Got a 2 gallon pot still.......stove top setup.

                    Just going to start the heat low.........watch the pot........

                    Turn the heat up until I get the 2 drops per second.

                    The follow the procedures below.

                    This will be my second sugar shine run.

                    And I'm learning quick,,,,,

                    Many thanks,
                    Claude




                    From: bleu jeanzz <Bleujeanzz@...>
                    To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Sat, February 2, 2013 5:05:42 PM
                    Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                     

                    I do it the way most pot stillers do, slowly heat wash, when it starts to drip run it at one to 2 drops per second, till you take the fores, then bump the heat to 4 drops per second, or a broken stream, about the same think IMO.  Then when heads are done crank it up to barely a steady stream and keep it there thru hearts.  Then crank it to the max of your condensor to harvest the tails for future use, or forget em and drain tank when cooled.

                    Trying to run a pot with a thermometer is nonsense, if someone wants to believe it helps em, fine, but its still nonsense.

                    bleu


                    From: "cnapier@..." <cnapier@...>
                    To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 2:04 PM
                    Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                     
                    Excellent info......

                    So no thermometer?

                    Where do you set the initial temp setting at then?

                    Thanks,
                    Claude




                    From: bleu jeanzz <Bleujeanzz@...>
                    To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Fri, February 1, 2013 3:21:45 PM
                    Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                     
                    Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer.  They are worthless in a pot still.  Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel.  I don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.



                    From: RLB <last2blast@...>
                    To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 5:13 PM
                    Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                     
                    One of the biggest questions I have about temps is the difference between stripping temps and finish temps?  My wash starts at around 7 to 10% abv.  I toss from 150 to 184, and collect 185 to 205.  Water is greatly reduce in stripping, so what kind of temp cuts can I expect in my first and/or second finish runs.  One would think the boil temps would be much closer to their boiling points after a stripping run in a pot still.

                    Robert



                    From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                    To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 6:14 PM
                    Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                     
                    To answer this quaestion meaningfully, I need to find out if we are talking about potstills or reflux stills. In a typical (and ideal) potstill, the head temperature is very close to the boiling point of the wash, and if the wash isn't boiling yet, the head temperature has no meaning other than you are not distilling yet.

                    In a reflux still the head thermometer is measuring the temperature of the mostly-separated vapor at the top of the column, after it has been condensed and re-vaporized a number of times. This temperature will always be lower than the temperature of the boiling wash way down in the boiler.

                    No matter which kind of still you are operating, you only need to pitch the foreshots on the first distillation. Foreshots are the really bad-tasting and -smelling part that contains most of the acetone, acetaldehyde. methanol, and ethyl acetate. After the foreshots come the heads, which you can drink (and do, when you buy cheap whiskey) but it will taste a bit harsh and you'll get more headaches (again, just like cheap whiskey, and for the same reason). It's up to your nose and palate how much you set aside as heads.

                    As far as what comes off before 74C (and I'm guessing you really mean 78C, the boiling point of pure ethanol), in a potstill, absolutely nothing, because while pure ethanol boils at ~78C, the stuff you have in your boiler is a far cry from pure ethanol, boiling in the low 90's probably. That means at 74, or 78, your boiler isn't boiling yet and you're not distilling yet, at least not at a rate that will let you finish a still run in less than a couple of weeks, or maybe months. Ok, on some fruit washes, you'll get 2 or 3 drops of some really vile stuff at lower head temps.

                    It's a very commonly (and dearly) held misconception that if you hold the wash temperature at 78C, you'll get pure ethanol out, and it just doesn't happen that way.

                    On the other hand, if you have a very good reflux still, and operate it well, you can see product coming out at very slightly over 78C, if you are tuning for "pure" (really ~95.6%). If you tune your reflux still to get a lower head temperature, your output will be less "pure" (read "more flavor").

                    Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Paolo Cucinotta wrote:
                    >
                    > wouldnt this be coming off sub 74C degrees so wouldnt it contain methadone?
                    > I have the same question.
                    >
                    > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:34 AM, RonaldP wrote:
                    >
                    > > **
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > If I'm distilling a wash and collecting and discarding the head. If I
                    > > re-distill whats left, do I discard the first 50ml of the head again or
                    > > not. If your running a wash for flavor, dose your distillation temp run a
                    > > little higher than if your just going for higher ABV% ?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >






                  • tgfoitwoods
                    Robert, Go here http://www.artisan-distiller.net/phpBB3/search.php and search for keyword oat . You ll find quite a bit. Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller ...
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 2, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Robert,

                      Go here http://www.artisan-distiller.net/phpBB3/search.php
                      and search for keyword "oat". You'll find quite a bit.

                      Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB wrote:
                      >
                      > White Bear:
                      >
                      > So far, I have read about 3 oat beers and one oat liquor, and that is
                      made in the UK if remembered correctly. Oats might be what I
                      am looking for as a way to stand out when my goal is reached of one day
                      opening a micro-distillery. In my area corn and oats are a major
                      agriculture commodities that are grown to sell rather than use, so my
                      ingredients would come directly from the farm. Just wish they grew
                      wheat, barley, and rye in this area. Will have to look into
                      buckwheat too.
                      >
                      > Robert  Â
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: White Bear
                      > To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com"
                      > Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2013 5:38 AM
                      > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                      >
                      >
                      > Â
                      > ZBob-
                      > Â Thanks for the information, explanation and graph, I'm going to
                      have to do a few graphs myself.
                      > Â Do you or anyone else know where there is an Oatmeal Whiskey
                      recipe, this sounds intriguing.
                      > WB
                      > Â
                      > Â
                      >
                      > From: tgfoitwoods
                      > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 5:55 PM
                      > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                      >
                      > Â
                      > Robert, I'm not sure where you heard the bit about boiling point of a
                      > mixture "freezing" at the boiling point of each volatile liquid in the
                      > mixture (I'm assuming until that specific liquids is all boiled off?),
                      > but that's not how boiling points work, and operating on that
                      assumption
                      > will just drive you crazy.
                      >
                      > As determined by Roualt's law, the boiling point of a mixture of
                      > volatile liquids is determined solely by the mass and molecular weight
                      > of each (and all) compound, and the atmospheric pressure, and the
                      > composition of the vapor boiled off is also determined by those same
                      > factors. As boiling progresses, the composition of the boiling wash
                      > changes gradually, so the boiling point also changes gradually.
                      >
                      > Contrary to some practices, I am an experienced potstiller that does
                      use
                      > a head thermometer, although I'd never use it to make cuts on an
                      unknown
                      > wash, because different washes benefit from cuts at different
                      > temperatures. For the sake of general information, I've graphed a lot
                      of
                      > still run head temperatures with time, and once the wash boils, the
                      > curve is always as smooth as I expect it to be.
                      >
                      > The best model to understand how the curve is continuous is to look at
                      a
                      > graph of boiling points and percentages for a simple binary mixture
                      of
                      > ethanol and water. Yes, it's a first approximation of wash behavior,
                      but
                      > it's a pretty darned good first approximation.
                      >
                      > http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/alcoholvaporCelsius.gif
                      >
                      > The blue curve represents the percentage of ethanol in the liquid over
                      > the range of boiling points, and the red curve represents the
                      percentage
                      > of ethanol in the vapor that boiled off at that boiling point.
                      >
                      > From that curve, if you have a 10% wash, it will boil at ~93C (199F)
                      and
                      > as the percent of ethanol in the wash approaches zero, the temperature
                      > of the wash will approach 100C (212 F). As long as the mixture is
                      > boiling, you have absolutely no control over its temperature; turning
                      up
                      > the power only makes vapor faster.
                      >
                      > Just as a very very general idea, and because I'm on the road and
                      don't
                      > have access to my files (but I do have some graphs in my book), for
                      the
                      > grocery store wine I distilled in my coffeepot still, foreshots and
                      > heads were up to ~91C (196F) and hearts were 91-94C (196-201F).
                      > Everything after that was tails, which I still collect and distill
                      again
                      > with other junk alcohol.
                      >
                      > I know a few people who have made oat whiskey. I'm not sure why more
                      > don't.
                      >
                      > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                      >
                      > --- In mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com, RLB wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I am a newbie to distillation, 6 total stripping runs, and not not
                      one
                      > finish run to date. My family were not moonshiners, and with AFT and
                      > TTB getting a woody every time they think someone is Moonshining I
                      will
                      > pass on trying to become a still hand. This is all a new learning
                      > process for me know matter how much I read.
                      > >
                      > > I use a thermometer to see where my boiling points are in my new pot
                      > still. All of my web site reading states that temps will freeze every
                      > time it hits a new alcohol boiling point no matter how high you set
                      your
                      > heat. For me Ethanol starts to boil from 191 to 193, so I sniff the
                      > end of my condenser to define all of the different cuts in a stripping
                      > run. For my stripping runs, my fore-shots will curl your toes, heads
                      > has an unpleasant strong smell, hearts has a strong smell with a sweet
                      > bouquet, and tails smell like a wet dirty sock. What I mean by strong
                      > smell: Take a sniff of +50% abv alcohol vapor. Who needs to ever
                      drink
                      > when those vapors will make you as drunk without ever having a
                      hangover.
                      > Yes, it might be true that most experienced people do not use a
                      > thermometer in a pot still, but I find knowing where the different
                      > boiling points are as being very helpful in my learning process. So
                      > far, all of my experience involves sugar washes,
                      > > and my first grain experiment will most likely be with oatmeal. I
                      > find it interesting that there is so little mention of oats. Oats
                      have
                      > 30 to 33 percent sugar, but very little spirits come from oats
                      > >
                      > > Robert
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ________________________________
                      > > From: bleu jeanzz
                      > > To: "mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com"
                      > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:39 PM
                      > > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer. They are
                      > worthless in a pot still. Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel. I
                      > don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for
                      > anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ________________________________
                      > >
                      >
                    • White Bear
                      Robert-   Good luck in you micro-distillery venture, I hope it works out for you.  I ll have to do some research for oat based liquor thanks. WB
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 2, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Robert-
                          Good luck in you micro-distillery venture, I hope it works out for you.  I'll have to do some research for oat based liquor thanks.
                        WB
                         
                         

                        From: RLB <last2blast@...>
                        To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2013 9:06 AM
                        Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                         
                        White Bear: So far, I have read about 3 oat beers and one oat liquor, and that is made in the UK if  remembered correctly.  Oats might be what I am looking for as a way to stand out when my goal is reached of one day opening a micro-distillery.  In my area corn and oats are a major agriculture commodities that are grown to sell rather than use, so my ingredients would come directly from the farm.  Just wish they grew wheat, barley, and rye in this area.  Will have to look into buckwheat too. Robert    


                        From: White Bear <sha_man_1@...>
                        To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2013 5:38 AM
                        Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                         
                        ZBob-
                          Thanks for the information, explanation and graph, I'm going to have to do a few graphs myself.
                          Do you or anyone else know where there is an Oatmeal Whiskey recipe, this sounds intriguing.
                        WB
                         
                         

                        From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 5:55 PM
                        Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                         
                        Robert, I'm not sure where you heard the bit about boiling point of a mixture "freezing" at the boiling point of each volatile liquid in the mixture (I'm assuming until that specific liquids is all boiled off?), but that's not how boiling points work, and operating on that assumption will just drive you crazy. As determined by Roualt's law, the boiling point of a mixture of volatile liquids is determined solely by the mass and molecular weight of each (and all) compound, and the atmospheric pressure, and the composition of the vapor boiled off is also determined by those same factors. As boiling progresses, the composition of the boiling wash changes gradually, so the boiling point also changes gradually. Contrary to some practices, I am an experienced potstiller that does use a head thermometer, although I'd never use it to make cuts on an unknown wash, because different washes benefit from cuts at different temperatures. For the sake of general information, I've graphed a lot of still run head temperatures with time, and once the wash boils, the curve is always as smooth as I expect it to be. The best model to understand how the curve is continuous is to look at a graph of boiling points and percentages for a simple binary mixture of ethanol and water. Yes, it's a first approximation of wash behavior, but it's a pretty darned good first approximation. http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/alcoholvaporCelsius.gif The blue curve represents the percentage of ethanol in the liquid over the range of boiling points, and the red curve represents the percentage of ethanol in the vapor that boiled off at that boiling point. From that curve, if you have a 10% wash, it will boil at ~93C (199F) and as the percent of ethanol in the wash approaches zero, the temperature of the wash will approach 100C (212 F). As long as the mixture is boiling, you have absolutely no control over its temperature; turning up the power only makes vapor faster. Just as a very very general idea, and because I'm on the road and don't have access to my files (but I do have some graphs in my book), for the grocery store wine I distilled in my coffeepot still, foreshots and heads were up to ~91C (196F) and hearts were 91-94C (196-201F). Everything after that was tails, which I still collect and distill again with other junk alcohol. I know a few people who have made oat whiskey. I'm not sure why more don't. Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                        --- In mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com, RLB wrote: > > I am a newbie to distillation, 6 total stripping runs, and not not one finish run to date. My family were not moonshiners, and with AFT and TTB getting a woody every time they think someone is Moonshining I will pass on trying to become a still hand. This is all a new learning process for me know matter how much I read. > > I use a thermometer to see where my boiling points are in my new pot still. All of my web site reading states that temps will freeze every time it hits a new alcohol boiling point no matter how high you set your heat. For me Ethanol starts to boil from 191 to 193, so I sniff the end of my condenser to define all of the different cuts in a stripping run. For my stripping runs, my fore-shots will curl your toes, heads has an unpleasant strong smell, hearts has a strong smell with a sweet bouquet, and tails smell like a wet dirty sock. What I mean by strong smell: Take a sniff of +50% abv alcohol vapor. Who needs to ever drink when those vapors will make you as drunk without ever having a hangover. Yes, it might be true that most experienced people do not use a thermometer in a pot still, but I find knowing where the different boiling points are as being very helpful in my learning process. So far, all of my experience involves sugar washes, > and my first grain experiment will most likely be with oatmeal. I find it interesting that there is so little mention of oats. Oats have 30 to 33 percent sugar, but very little spirits come from oats > > Robert > > > > > ________________________________ > From: bleu jeanzz > To: "mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com" > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:39 PM > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ?? > > > > Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer. They are worthless in a pot still. Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel. I don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for anything other than entertainment value on a pot still. > > > > ________________________________ >
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