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Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

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  • RLB
    Most people automatically toss the first 50 ml no matter how many times you distill alcohol.  At most you are tossing 50 ml of heads, and that is not a big
    Message 1 of 20 , Jan 30, 2013
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      Most people automatically toss the first 50 ml no matter how many times you distill alcohol.  At most you are tossing 50 ml of heads, and that is not a big deal in the scope of things.  My future plan is to triple distill all my spirits before placing them into containers with burnt oak slats. That 200 ml out of 2 gals will be used for industrial use.  Why toss something that can be used as a cleaning product?

      Robert
       


      From: David Eastham <planetgong0@...>
      To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 1:12 PM
      Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

       

      If by head you mean foreshots then once you've chucked the 50ml if you distill again this has already gone so you dont need to chuck any more out. I'm no expert on pot distilling, I use reflux for purity but I believe temperatures do run higher with pot distillation.
      Cheers
      Dave E
      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "RonaldP" wrote:
      >
      > If I'm distilling a wash and collecting and discarding the head. If I re-distill whats left, do I discard the first 50ml of the head again or not. If your running a wash for flavor, dose your distillation temp run a little higher than if your just going for higher ABV% ?
      >



    • Paolo Cucinotta
      wouldnt this be coming off sub 74C degrees so wouldnt it contain methadone? I have the same question.
      Message 2 of 20 , Jan 30, 2013
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        wouldnt this be coming off sub 74C degrees so wouldnt it contain methadone? I have the same question.

        On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:34 AM, RonaldP <mrdoyleprice@...> wrote:
         

        If I'm distilling a wash and collecting and discarding the head. If I re-distill whats left, do I discard the first 50ml of the head again or not. If your running a wash for flavor, dose your distillation temp run a little higher than if your just going for higher ABV% ?


      • ahandyman59
        Methadone is a heroin substitute used to get people off heroin and I seriously doubt any of that is found in typical mash, wort, etc. I think you mean
        Message 3 of 20 , Jan 30, 2013
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          Methadone is a heroin substitute used to get people off heroin and I seriously doubt any of that is found in typical mash, wort, etc.  I think you mean methanol, which is wood alcohol…

           

           

          From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paolo Cucinotta
          Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 11:12 AM
          To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re-distillation ??

           

           

          wouldnt this be coming off sub 74C degrees so wouldnt it contain methadone? I have the same question.

          On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:34 AM, RonaldP <mrdoyleprice@...> wrote:

           

          If I'm distilling a wash and collecting and discarding the head. If I re-distill whats left, do I discard the first 50ml of the head again or not. If your running a wash for flavor, dose your distillation temp run a little higher than if your just going for higher ABV% ?

           

        • jsmeyer_2000
          yes toss the first 50ml on redistill ________________________________ From: Paolo Cucinotta To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com Sent:
          Message 4 of 20 , Jan 30, 2013
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            yes toss the first 50ml on redistill


            From: Paolo Cucinotta <cucinotta34@...>
            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 1:12 PM
            Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re-distillation ??

             
            wouldnt this be coming off sub 74C degrees so wouldnt it contain methadone? I have the same question.

            On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:34 AM, RonaldP <mrdoyleprice@...> wrote:
             
            If I'm distilling a wash and collecting and discarding the head. If I re-distill whats left, do I discard the first 50ml of the head again or not. If your running a wash for flavor, dose your distillation temp run a little higher than if your just going for higher ABV% ?




          • tgfoitwoods
            To answer this quaestion meaningfully, I need to find out if we are talking about potstills or reflux stills. In a typical (and ideal) potstill, the head
            Message 5 of 20 , Jan 31, 2013
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              To answer this quaestion meaningfully, I need to find out if we are talking about potstills or reflux stills. In a typical (and ideal) potstill, the head temperature is very close to the boiling point of the wash, and if the wash isn't boiling yet, the head temperature has no meaning other than you are not distilling yet.

              In a reflux still the head thermometer is measuring the temperature of the mostly-separated vapor at the top of the column, after it has been condensed and re-vaporized a number of times. This temperature will always be lower than the temperature of the boiling wash way down in the boiler.

              No matter which kind of still you are operating, you only need to pitch the foreshots on the first distillation. Foreshots are the really bad-tasting and -smelling part that contains most of the acetone, acetaldehyde. methanol, and ethyl acetate. After the foreshots come the heads, which you can drink (and do, when you buy cheap whiskey) but it will taste a bit harsh and you'll get more headaches (again, just like cheap whiskey, and for the same reason). It's up to your nose and palate how much you set aside as heads.

              As far as what comes off before 74C (and I'm guessing you really mean 78C, the boiling point of pure ethanol), in a potstill, absolutely nothing, because while pure ethanol boils at ~78C, the stuff you have in your boiler is a far cry from pure ethanol, boiling in the low 90's probably. That means at 74, or 78, your boiler isn't boiling yet and you're not distilling yet, at least not at a rate that will let you finish a still run in less than a couple of weeks, or maybe months. Ok, on some fruit washes, you'll get 2 or 3 drops of some really vile stuff at lower head temps.

              It's a very commonly (and dearly) held misconception that if you hold the wash temperature at 78C, you'll get pure ethanol out, and it just doesn't happen that way.

              On the other hand, if you have a very good reflux still, and operate it well, you can see product coming out at very slightly over 78C, if you are tuning for "pure" (really ~95.6%). If you tune your reflux still to get a lower head temperature, your output will be less "pure" (read "more flavor").

              Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Paolo Cucinotta wrote:
              >
              > wouldnt this be coming off sub 74C degrees so wouldnt it contain methadone?
              > I have the same question.
              >
              > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:34 AM, RonaldP wrote:
              >
              > > **
              > >
              > >
              > > If I'm distilling a wash and collecting and discarding the head. If I
              > > re-distill whats left, do I discard the first 50ml of the head again or
              > > not. If your running a wash for flavor, dose your distillation temp run a
              > > little higher than if your just going for higher ABV% ?
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • RLB
              One of the biggest questions I have about temps is the difference between stripping temps and finish temps?  My wash starts at around 7 to 10% abv.  I toss
              Message 6 of 20 , Jan 31, 2013
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                One of the biggest questions I have about temps is the difference between stripping temps and finish temps?  My wash starts at around 7 to 10% abv.  I toss from 150 to 184, and collect 185 to 205.  Water is greatly reduce in stripping, so what kind of temp cuts can I expect in my first and/or second finish runs.  One would think the boil temps would be much closer to their boiling points after a stripping run in a pot still.

                Robert



                From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 6:14 PM
                Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                 
                To answer this quaestion meaningfully, I need to find out if we are talking about potstills or reflux stills. In a typical (and ideal) potstill, the head temperature is very close to the boiling point of the wash, and if the wash isn't boiling yet, the head temperature has no meaning other than you are not distilling yet.

                In a reflux still the head thermometer is measuring the temperature of the mostly-separated vapor at the top of the column, after it has been condensed and re-vaporized a number of times. This temperature will always be lower than the temperature of the boiling wash way down in the boiler.

                No matter which kind of still you are operating, you only need to pitch the foreshots on the first distillation. Foreshots are the really bad-tasting and -smelling part that contains most of the acetone, acetaldehyde. methanol, and ethyl acetate. After the foreshots come the heads, which you can drink (and do, when you buy cheap whiskey) but it will taste a bit harsh and you'll get more headaches (again, just like cheap whiskey, and for the same reason). It's up to your nose and palate how much you set aside as heads.

                As far as what comes off before 74C (and I'm guessing you really mean 78C, the boiling point of pure ethanol), in a potstill, absolutely nothing, because while pure ethanol boils at ~78C, the stuff you have in your boiler is a far cry from pure ethanol, boiling in the low 90's probably. That means at 74, or 78, your boiler isn't boiling yet and you're not distilling yet, at least not at a rate that will let you finish a still run in less than a couple of weeks, or maybe months. Ok, on some fruit washes, you'll get 2 or 3 drops of some really vile stuff at lower head temps.

                It's a very commonly (and dearly) held misconception that if you hold the wash temperature at 78C, you'll get pure ethanol out, and it just doesn't happen that way.

                On the other hand, if you have a very good reflux still, and operate it well, you can see product coming out at very slightly over 78C, if you are tuning for "pure" (really ~95.6%). If you tune your reflux still to get a lower head temperature, your output will be less "pure" (read "more flavor").

                Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Paolo Cucinotta wrote:
                >
                > wouldnt this be coming off sub 74C degrees so wouldnt it contain methadone?
                > I have the same question.
                >
                > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:34 AM, RonaldP wrote:
                >
                > > **
                > >
                > >
                > > If I'm distilling a wash and collecting and discarding the head. If I
                > > re-distill whats left, do I discard the first 50ml of the head again or
                > > not. If your running a wash for flavor, dose your distillation temp run a
                > > little higher than if your just going for higher ABV% ?
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >


              • bleu jeanzz
                Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer.  They are worthless in a pot still.  Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel.  I don t know anyone who
                Message 7 of 20 , Jan 31, 2013
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                  Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer.  They are worthless in a pot still.  Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel.  I don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.



                  From: RLB <last2blast@...>
                  To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 5:13 PM
                  Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                   
                  One of the biggest questions I have about temps is the difference between stripping temps and finish temps?  My wash starts at around 7 to 10% abv.  I toss from 150 to 184, and collect 185 to 205.  Water is greatly reduce in stripping, so what kind of temp cuts can I expect in my first and/or second finish runs.  One would think the boil temps would be much closer to their boiling points after a stripping run in a pot still.

                  Robert



                  From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                  To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 6:14 PM
                  Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                   
                  To answer this quaestion meaningfully, I need to find out if we are talking about potstills or reflux stills. In a typical (and ideal) potstill, the head temperature is very close to the boiling point of the wash, and if the wash isn't boiling yet, the head temperature has no meaning other than you are not distilling yet.

                  In a reflux still the head thermometer is measuring the temperature of the mostly-separated vapor at the top of the column, after it has been condensed and re-vaporized a number of times. This temperature will always be lower than the temperature of the boiling wash way down in the boiler.

                  No matter which kind of still you are operating, you only need to pitch the foreshots on the first distillation. Foreshots are the really bad-tasting and -smelling part that contains most of the acetone, acetaldehyde. methanol, and ethyl acetate. After the foreshots come the heads, which you can drink (and do, when you buy cheap whiskey) but it will taste a bit harsh and you'll get more headaches (again, just like cheap whiskey, and for the same reason). It's up to your nose and palate how much you set aside as heads.

                  As far as what comes off before 74C (and I'm guessing you really mean 78C, the boiling point of pure ethanol), in a potstill, absolutely nothing, because while pure ethanol boils at ~78C, the stuff you have in your boiler is a far cry from pure ethanol, boiling in the low 90's probably. That means at 74, or 78, your boiler isn't boiling yet and you're not distilling yet, at least not at a rate that will let you finish a still run in less than a couple of weeks, or maybe months. Ok, on some fruit washes, you'll get 2 or 3 drops of some really vile stuff at lower head temps.

                  It's a very commonly (and dearly) held misconception that if you hold the wash temperature at 78C, you'll get pure ethanol out, and it just doesn't happen that way.

                  On the other hand, if you have a very good reflux still, and operate it well, you can see product coming out at very slightly over 78C, if you are tuning for "pure" (really ~95.6%). If you tune your reflux still to get a lower head temperature, your output will be less "pure" (read "more flavor").

                  Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Paolo Cucinotta wrote:
                  >
                  > wouldnt this be coming off sub 74C degrees so wouldnt it contain methadone?
                  > I have the same question.
                  >
                  > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:34 AM, RonaldP wrote:
                  >
                  > > **
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > If I'm distilling a wash and collecting and discarding the head. If I
                  > > re-distill whats left, do I discard the first 50ml of the head again or
                  > > not. If your running a wash for flavor, dose your distillation temp run a
                  > > little higher than if your just going for higher ABV% ?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >




                • cnapier@att.net
                  Excellent info...... So no thermometer? Where do you set the initial temp setting at then? Thanks, Claude ________________________________ From: bleu jeanzz
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 1, 2013
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                    Excellent info......

                    So no thermometer?

                    Where do you set the initial temp setting at then?

                    Thanks,
                    Claude




                    From: bleu jeanzz <Bleujeanzz@...>
                    To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Fri, February 1, 2013 3:21:45 PM
                    Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                     

                    Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer.  They are worthless in a pot still.  Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel.  I don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.



                    From: RLB <last2blast@...>
                    To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 5:13 PM
                    Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                     
                    One of the biggest questions I have about temps is the difference between stripping temps and finish temps?  My wash starts at around 7 to 10% abv.  I toss from 150 to 184, and collect 185 to 205.  Water is greatly reduce in stripping, so what kind of temp cuts can I expect in my first and/or second finish runs.  One would think the boil temps would be much closer to their boiling points after a stripping run in a pot still.

                    Robert



                    From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                    To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 6:14 PM
                    Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                     
                    To answer this quaestion meaningfully, I need to find out if we are talking about potstills or reflux stills. In a typical (and ideal) potstill, the head temperature is very close to the boiling point of the wash, and if the wash isn't boiling yet, the head temperature has no meaning other than you are not distilling yet.

                    In a reflux still the head thermometer is measuring the temperature of the mostly-separated vapor at the top of the column, after it has been condensed and re-vaporized a number of times. This temperature will always be lower than the temperature of the boiling wash way down in the boiler.

                    No matter which kind of still you are operating, you only need to pitch the foreshots on the first distillation. Foreshots are the really bad-tasting and -smelling part that contains most of the acetone, acetaldehyde. methanol, and ethyl acetate. After the foreshots come the heads, which you can drink (and do, when you buy cheap whiskey) but it will taste a bit harsh and you'll get more headaches (again, just like cheap whiskey, and for the same reason). It's up to your nose and palate how much you set aside as heads.

                    As far as what comes off before 74C (and I'm guessing you really mean 78C, the boiling point of pure ethanol), in a potstill, absolutely nothing, because while pure ethanol boils at ~78C, the stuff you have in your boiler is a far cry from pure ethanol, boiling in the low 90's probably. That means at 74, or 78, your boiler isn't boiling yet and you're not distilling yet, at least not at a rate that will let you finish a still run in less than a couple of weeks, or maybe months. Ok, on some fruit washes, you'll get 2 or 3 drops of some really vile stuff at lower head temps.

                    It's a very commonly (and dearly) held misconception that if you hold the wash temperature at 78C, you'll get pure ethanol out, and it just doesn't happen that way.

                    On the other hand, if you have a very good reflux still, and operate it well, you can see product coming out at very slightly over 78C, if you are tuning for "pure" (really ~95.6%). If you tune your reflux still to get a lower head temperature, your output will be less "pure" (read "more flavor").

                    Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Paolo Cucinotta wrote:
                    >
                    > wouldnt this be coming off sub 74C degrees so wouldnt it contain methadone?
                    > I have the same question.
                    >
                    > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:34 AM, RonaldP wrote:
                    >
                    > > **
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > If I'm distilling a wash and collecting and discarding the head. If I
                    > > re-distill whats left, do I discard the first 50ml of the head again or
                    > > not. If your running a wash for flavor, dose your distillation temp run a
                    > > little higher than if your just going for higher ABV% ?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >




                  • RLB
                    I am a newbie to distillation, 6 total stripping runs, and not not one finish run to date.  My family were not moonshiners, and with AFT and TTB getting a
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 1, 2013
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                      I am a newbie to distillation, 6 total stripping runs, and not not one finish run to date.  My family were not moonshiners, and with AFT and TTB getting a woody every time they think someone is Moonshining I will pass on trying to become a still hand.  This is all a new learning process for me know matter how much I read.

                      I use a thermometer to see where my boiling points are in my new pot still.  All of my web site reading states that temps will freeze every time it hits a new alcohol boiling point no matter how high you set your heat.   For me Ethanol starts to boil from 191 to 193, so I sniff the end of my condenser to define all of the different cuts in a stripping run.  For my stripping runs, my fore-shots will curl your toes, heads has an unpleasant strong smell, hearts has a strong smell with a sweet bouquet, and tails smell like a wet dirty sock.  What I mean by strong smell: Take a sniff of +50% abv alcohol vapor.  Who needs to ever drink when those vapors will make you as drunk without ever having a hangover.  Yes, it might be true that most experienced people do not use a thermometer in a pot still, but I find knowing where the different boiling points are as being very helpful in my learning process.  So far, all of my experience involves sugar washes, and my first grain experiment will most likely be with oatmeal.  I find it interesting that there is so little mention of oats.  Oats have 30 to 33 percent sugar, but very little spirits come from oats

                      Robert 



                      From: bleu jeanzz <Bleujeanzz@...>
                      To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:39 PM
                      Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                       
                      Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer.  They are worthless in a pot still.  Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel.  I don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.





                    • White Bear
                      Claude-   I always use a thermometer with my pot still, It works great if placed just before where the product leaves the still into the condensor and
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 1, 2013
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                        Claude-
                        � I always use a thermometer with my pot still, It works great if placed�just before where the product leaves the still into the condensor�and monitored correctly.� Design your pot still with the placement in mind and go for it.� Remember, NOTHING IS WRITTEN IN STONE AND EVERYONES RESULTS WILL BE DIFFERENT. Even mine are not exactly duplicated everytime.
                        WB

                        From: "cnapier@..."
                        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 4:04 PM
                        Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                        Excellent info...... So no thermometer? Where do you set the initial temp setting at then? Thanks, Claude

                        From: bleu jeanzz
                        To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com"
                        Sent: Fri, February 1, 2013 3:21:45 PM
                        Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                        Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer.� They are worthless in a pot still.� Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel.� I don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.


                        From: RLB
                        To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com"
                        Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 5:13 PM
                        Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                        One of the biggest questions I have about temps is the difference between stripping temps and finish temps?� My wash starts at around 7 to 10% abv.� I toss from 150 to 184, and collect 185 to 205.� Water is greatly reduce in stripping, so what kind of temp cuts can I expect in my first and/or second finish runs.� One would think the boil temps would be much closer to their boiling points after a stripping run in a pot still. Robert


                        From: tgfoitwoods
                        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 6:14 PM
                        Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                        To answer this quaestion meaningfully, I need to find out if we are talking about potstills or reflux stills. In a typical (and ideal) potstill, the head temperature is very close to the boiling point of the wash, and if the wash isn't boiling yet, the head temperature has no meaning other than you are not distilling yet. In a reflux still the head thermometer is measuring the temperature of the mostly-separated vapor at the top of the column, after it has been condensed and re-vaporized a number of times. This temperature will always be lower than the temperature of the boiling wash way down in the boiler. No matter which kind of still you are operating, you only need to pitch the foreshots on the first distillation. Foreshots are the really bad-tasting and -smelling part that contains most of the acetone, acetaldehyde. methanol, and ethyl acetate. After the foreshots come the heads, which you can drink (and do, when you buy cheap whiskey) but it will taste a bit harsh and you'll get more headaches (again, just like cheap whiskey, and for the same reason). It's up to your nose and palate how much you set aside as heads. As far as what comes off before 74C (and I'm guessing you really mean 78C, the boiling point of pure ethanol), in a potstill, absolutely nothing, because while pure ethanol boils at ~78C, the stuff you have in your boiler is a far cry from pure ethanol, boiling in the low 90's probably. That means at 74, or 78, your boiler isn't boiling yet and you're not distilling yet, at least not at a rate that will let you finish a still run in less than a couple of weeks, or maybe months. Ok, on some fruit washes, you'll get 2 or 3 drops of some really vile stuff at lower head temps. It's a very commonly (and dearly) held misconception that if you hold the wash temperature at 78C, you'll get pure ethanol out, and it just doesn't happen that way.
                        On the other hand, if you have a very good reflux still, and operate it well, you can see product coming out at very slightly over 78C, if you are tuning for "pure" (really ~95.6%). If you tune your reflux still to get a lower head temperature, your output will be less "pure" (read "more flavor"). Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Paolo Cucinotta wrote: > > wouldnt this be coming off sub 74C degrees so wouldnt it contain methadone? > I have the same question. > > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:34 AM, RonaldP wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > If I'm distilling a wash and collecting and discarding the head. If I > > re-distill whats left, do I discard the first 50ml of the head again or > > not. If your running a wash for flavor, dose your distillation temp run a > > little higher than if your just going for higher ABV% ? > > > > > > >
                      • tgfoitwoods
                        Robert, I m not sure where you heard the bit about boiling point of a mixture freezing at the boiling point of each volatile liquid in the mixture (I m
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 1, 2013
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                          Robert, I'm not sure where you heard the bit about boiling point of a
                          mixture "freezing" at the boiling point of each volatile liquid in the
                          mixture (I'm assuming until that specific liquids is all boiled off?),
                          but that's not how boiling points work, and operating on that assumption
                          will just drive you crazy.

                          As determined by Roualt's law, the boiling point of a mixture of
                          volatile liquids is determined solely by the mass and molecular weight
                          of each (and all) compound, and the atmospheric pressure, and the
                          composition of the vapor boiled off is also determined by those same
                          factors. As boiling progresses, the composition of the boiling wash
                          changes gradually, so the boiling point also changes gradually.

                          Contrary to some practices, I am an experienced potstiller that does use
                          a head thermometer, although I'd never use it to make cuts on an unknown
                          wash, because different washes benefit from cuts at different
                          temperatures. For the sake of general information, I've graphed a lot of
                          still run head temperatures with time, and once the wash boils, the
                          curve is always as smooth as I expect it to be.

                          The best model to understand how the curve is continuous is to look at a
                          graph of boiling points and percentages for a simple binary mixture of
                          ethanol and water. Yes, it's a first approximation of wash behavior, but
                          it's a pretty darned good first approximation.

                          http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/alcoholvaporCelsius.gif

                          The blue curve represents the percentage of ethanol in the liquid over
                          the range of boiling points, and the red curve represents the percentage
                          of ethanol in the vapor that boiled off at that boiling point.

                          From that curve, if you have a 10% wash, it will boil at ~93C (199F) and
                          as the percent of ethanol in the wash approaches zero, the temperature
                          of the wash will approach 100C (212 F). As long as the mixture is
                          boiling, you have absolutely no control over its temperature; turning up
                          the power only makes vapor faster.

                          Just as a very very general idea, and because I'm on the road and don't
                          have access to my files (but I do have some graphs in my book), for the
                          grocery store wine I distilled in my coffeepot still, foreshots and
                          heads were up to ~91C (196F) and hearts were 91-94C (196-201F).
                          Everything after that was tails, which I still collect and distill again
                          with other junk alcohol.

                          I know a few people who have made oat whiskey. I'm not sure why more
                          don't.

                          Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB wrote:
                          >
                          > I am a newbie to distillation, 6 total stripping runs, and not not one
                          finish run to date. My family were not moonshiners, and with AFT and
                          TTB getting a woody every time they think someone is Moonshining I will
                          pass on trying to become a still hand. This is all a new learning
                          process for me know matter how much I read.
                          >
                          > I use a thermometer to see where my boiling points are in my new pot
                          still. All of my web site reading states that temps will freeze every
                          time it hits a new alcohol boiling point no matter how high you set your
                          heat. For me Ethanol starts to boil from 191 to 193, so I sniff the
                          end of my condenser to define all of the different cuts in a stripping
                          run. For my stripping runs, my fore-shots will curl your toes, heads
                          has an unpleasant strong smell, hearts has a strong smell with a sweet
                          bouquet, and tails smell like a wet dirty sock. What I mean by strong
                          smell: Take a sniff of +50% abv alcohol vapor. Who needs to ever drink
                          when those vapors will make you as drunk without ever having a hangover.
                          Yes, it might be true that most experienced people do not use a
                          thermometer in a pot still, but I find knowing where the different
                          boiling points are as being very helpful in my learning process. So
                          far, all of my experience involves sugar washes,
                          > and my first grain experiment will most likely be with oatmeal. I
                          find it interesting that there is so little mention of oats. Oats have
                          30 to 33 percent sugar, but very little spirits come from oats
                          >
                          > Robert
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          > From: bleu jeanzz
                          > To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com"
                          > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:39 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer. They are
                          worthless in a pot still. Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel. I
                          don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for
                          anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          >
                        • bleu jeanzz
                          I do it the way most pot stillers do, slowly heat wash, when it starts to drip run it at one to 2 drops per second, till you take the fores, then bump the heat
                          Message 12 of 20 , Feb 1, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I do it the way most pot stillers do, slowly heat wash, when it starts to drip run it at one to 2 drops per second, till you take the fores, then bump the heat to 4 drops per second, or a broken stream, about the same think IMO.  Then when heads are done crank it up to barely a steady stream and keep it there thru hearts.  Then crank it to the max of your condensor to harvest the tails for future use, or forget em and drain tank when cooled.

                            Trying to run a pot with a thermometer is nonsense, if someone wants to believe it helps em, fine, but its still nonsense.

                            bleu


                            From: "cnapier@..." <cnapier@...>
                            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 2:04 PM
                            Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                             
                            Excellent info......

                            So no thermometer?

                            Where do you set the initial temp setting at then?

                            Thanks,
                            Claude




                            From: bleu jeanzz <Bleujeanzz@...>
                            To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Fri, February 1, 2013 3:21:45 PM
                            Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                             
                            Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer.  They are worthless in a pot still.  Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel.  I don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.



                            From: RLB <last2blast@...>
                            To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 5:13 PM
                            Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                             
                            One of the biggest questions I have about temps is the difference between stripping temps and finish temps?  My wash starts at around 7 to 10% abv.  I toss from 150 to 184, and collect 185 to 205.  Water is greatly reduce in stripping, so what kind of temp cuts can I expect in my first and/or second finish runs.  One would think the boil temps would be much closer to their boiling points after a stripping run in a pot still.

                            Robert



                            From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 6:14 PM
                            Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                             
                            To answer this quaestion meaningfully, I need to find out if we are talking about potstills or reflux stills. In a typical (and ideal) potstill, the head temperature is very close to the boiling point of the wash, and if the wash isn't boiling yet, the head temperature has no meaning other than you are not distilling yet.

                            In a reflux still the head thermometer is measuring the temperature of the mostly-separated vapor at the top of the column, after it has been condensed and re-vaporized a number of times. This temperature will always be lower than the temperature of the boiling wash way down in the boiler.

                            No matter which kind of still you are operating, you only need to pitch the foreshots on the first distillation. Foreshots are the really bad-tasting and -smelling part that contains most of the acetone, acetaldehyde. methanol, and ethyl acetate. After the foreshots come the heads, which you can drink (and do, when you buy cheap whiskey) but it will taste a bit harsh and you'll get more headaches (again, just like cheap whiskey, and for the same reason). It's up to your nose and palate how much you set aside as heads.

                            As far as what comes off before 74C (and I'm guessing you really mean 78C, the boiling point of pure ethanol), in a potstill, absolutely nothing, because while pure ethanol boils at ~78C, the stuff you have in your boiler is a far cry from pure ethanol, boiling in the low 90's probably. That means at 74, or 78, your boiler isn't boiling yet and you're not distilling yet, at least not at a rate that will let you finish a still run in less than a couple of weeks, or maybe months. Ok, on some fruit washes, you'll get 2 or 3 drops of some really vile stuff at lower head temps.

                            It's a very commonly (and dearly) held misconception that if you hold the wash temperature at 78C, you'll get pure ethanol out, and it just doesn't happen that way.

                            On the other hand, if you have a very good reflux still, and operate it well, you can see product coming out at very slightly over 78C, if you are tuning for "pure" (really ~95.6%). If you tune your reflux still to get a lower head temperature, your output will be less "pure" (read "more flavor").

                            Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Paolo Cucinotta wrote:
                            >
                            > wouldnt this be coming off sub 74C degrees so wouldnt it contain methadone?
                            > I have the same question.
                            >
                            > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:34 AM, RonaldP wrote:
                            >
                            > > **
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > If I'm distilling a wash and collecting and discarding the head. If I
                            > > re-distill whats left, do I discard the first 50ml of the head again or
                            > > not. If your running a wash for flavor, dose your distillation temp run a
                            > > little higher than if your just going for higher ABV% ?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >






                          • cnapier@att.net
                            And this is what makes it art..... ... Awesome hobby......I ve done a sugar shine wash and run. And it humbles you until you get it correct. I ve been reading
                            Message 13 of 20 , Feb 1, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              And this is what makes it art.....

                              :)

                              Awesome hobby......I've done a sugar shine wash and run.

                              And it humbles you until you get it correct.

                              I've been reading for 6 months on all aspects of moonshine.

                              And every time I log on I get educated or confused.

                              Love it.

                              Claude



                              From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                              To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Fri, February 1, 2013 6:55:55 PM
                              Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                               

                              Robert, I'm not sure where you heard the bit about boiling point of a
                              mixture "freezing" at the boiling point of each volatile liquid in the
                              mixture (I'm assuming until that specific liquids is all boiled off?),
                              but that's not how boiling points work, and operating on that assumption
                              will just drive you crazy.

                              As determined by Roualt's law, the boiling point of a mixture of
                              volatile liquids is determined solely by the mass and molecular weight
                              of each (and all) compound, and the atmospheric pressure, and the
                              composition of the vapor boiled off is also determined by those same
                              factors. As boiling progresses, the composition of the boiling wash
                              changes gradually, so the boiling point also changes gradually.

                              Contrary to some practices, I am an experienced potstiller that does use
                              a head thermometer, although I'd never use it to make cuts on an unknown
                              wash, because different washes benefit from cuts at different
                              temperatures. For the sake of general information, I've graphed a lot of
                              still run head temperatures with time, and once the wash boils, the
                              curve is always as smooth as I expect it to be.

                              The best model to understand how the curve is continuous is to look at a
                              graph of boiling points and percentages for a simple binary mixture of
                              ethanol and water. Yes, it's a first approximation of wash behavior, but
                              it's a pretty darned good first approximation.

                              http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/alcoholvaporCelsius.gif

                              The blue curve represents the percentage of ethanol in the liquid over
                              the range of boiling points, and the red curve represents the percentage
                              of ethanol in the vapor that boiled off at that boiling point.

                              From that curve, if you have a 10% wash, it will boil at ~93C (199F) and
                              as the percent of ethanol in the wash approaches zero, the temperature
                              of the wash will approach 100C (212 F). As long as the mixture is
                              boiling, you have absolutely no control over its temperature; turning up
                              the power only makes vapor faster.

                              Just as a very very general idea, and because I'm on the road and don't
                              have access to my files (but I do have some graphs in my book), for the
                              grocery store wine I distilled in my coffeepot still, foreshots and
                              heads were up to ~91C (196F) and hearts were 91-94C (196-201F).
                              Everything after that was tails, which I still collect and distill again
                              with other junk alcohol.

                              I know a few people who have made oat whiskey. I'm not sure why more
                              don't.

                              Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB wrote:
                              >
                              > I am a newbie to distillation, 6 total stripping runs, and not not one
                              finish run to date. My family were not moonshiners, and with AFT and
                              TTB getting a woody every time they think someone is Moonshining I will
                              pass on trying to become a still hand. This is all a new learning
                              process for me know matter how much I read.
                              >
                              > I use a thermometer to see where my boiling points are in my new pot
                              still. All of my web site reading states that temps will freeze every
                              time it hits a new alcohol boiling point no matter how high you set your
                              heat. For me Ethanol starts to boil from 191 to 193, so I sniff the
                              end of my condenser to define all of the different cuts in a stripping
                              run. For my stripping runs, my fore-shots will curl your toes, heads
                              has an unpleasant strong smell, hearts has a strong smell with a sweet
                              bouquet, and tails smell like a wet dirty sock. What I mean by strong
                              smell: Take a sniff of +50% abv alcohol vapor. Who needs to ever drink
                              when those vapors will make you as drunk without ever having a hangover.
                              Yes, it might be true that most experienced people do not use a
                              thermometer in a pot still, but I find knowing where the different
                              boiling points are as being very helpful in my learning process. So
                              far, all of my experience involves sugar washes,
                              > and my first grain experiment will most likely be with oatmeal. I
                              find it interesting that there is so little mention of oats. Oats have
                              30 to 33 percent sugar, but very little spirits come from oats
                              >
                              > Robert
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ________________________________
                              > From: bleu jeanzz
                              > To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com"
                              > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:39 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer. They are
                              worthless in a pot still. Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel. I
                              don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for
                              anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ________________________________
                              >

                            • White Bear
                              ZBob-   Thanks for the information, explanation and graph, I m going to have to do a few graphs myself.   Do you or anyone else know where there is an
                              Message 14 of 20 , Feb 2, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                ZBob-
                                  Thanks for the information, explanation and graph, I'm going to have to do a few graphs myself.
                                  Do you or anyone else know where there is an Oatmeal Whiskey recipe, this sounds intriguing.
                                WB
                                 
                                 

                                From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                                To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 5:55 PM
                                Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                                 
                                Robert, I'm not sure where you heard the bit about boiling point of a
                                mixture "freezing" at the boiling point of each volatile liquid in the
                                mixture (I'm assuming until that specific liquids is all boiled off?),
                                but that's not how boiling points work, and operating on that assumption
                                will just drive you crazy.

                                As determined by Roualt's law, the boiling point of a mixture of
                                volatile liquids is determined solely by the mass and molecular weight
                                of each (and all) compound, and the atmospheric pressure, and the
                                composition of the vapor boiled off is also determined by those same
                                factors. As boiling progresses, the composition of the boiling wash
                                changes gradually, so the boiling point also changes gradually.

                                Contrary to some practices, I am an experienced potstiller that does use
                                a head thermometer, although I'd never use it to make cuts on an unknown
                                wash, because different washes benefit from cuts at different
                                temperatures. For the sake of general information, I've graphed a lot of
                                still run head temperatures with time, and once the wash boils, the
                                curve is always as smooth as I expect it to be.

                                The best model to understand how the curve is continuous is to look at a
                                graph of boiling points and percentages for a simple binary mixture of
                                ethanol and water. Yes, it's a first approximation of wash behavior, but
                                it's a pretty darned good first approximation.

                                http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/alcoholvaporCelsius.gif

                                The blue curve represents the percentage of ethanol in the liquid over
                                the range of boiling points, and the red curve represents the percentage
                                of ethanol in the vapor that boiled off at that boiling point.

                                From that curve, if you have a 10% wash, it will boil at ~93C (199F) and
                                as the percent of ethanol in the wash approaches zero, the temperature
                                of the wash will approach 100C (212 F). As long as the mixture is
                                boiling, you have absolutely no control over its temperature; turning up
                                the power only makes vapor faster.

                                Just as a very very general idea, and because I'm on the road and don't
                                have access to my files (but I do have some graphs in my book), for the
                                grocery store wine I distilled in my coffeepot still, foreshots and
                                heads were up to ~91C (196F) and hearts were 91-94C (196-201F).
                                Everything after that was tails, which I still collect and distill again
                                with other junk alcohol.

                                I know a few people who have made oat whiskey. I'm not sure why more
                                don't.

                                Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                                --- In mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com, RLB wrote:
                                >
                                > I am a newbie to distillation, 6 total stripping runs, and not not one
                                finish run to date. My family were not moonshiners, and with AFT and
                                TTB getting a woody every time they think someone is Moonshining I will
                                pass on trying to become a still hand. This is all a new learning
                                process for me know matter how much I read.
                                >
                                > I use a thermometer to see where my boiling points are in my new pot
                                still. All of my web site reading states that temps will freeze every
                                time it hits a new alcohol boiling point no matter how high you set your
                                heat. For me Ethanol starts to boil from 191 to 193, so I sniff the
                                end of my condenser to define all of the different cuts in a stripping
                                run. For my stripping runs, my fore-shots will curl your toes, heads
                                has an unpleasant strong smell, hearts has a strong smell with a sweet
                                bouquet, and tails smell like a wet dirty sock. What I mean by strong
                                smell: Take a sniff of +50% abv alcohol vapor. Who needs to ever drink
                                when those vapors will make you as drunk without ever having a hangover.
                                Yes, it might be true that most experienced people do not use a
                                thermometer in a pot still, but I find knowing where the different
                                boiling points are as being very helpful in my learning process. So
                                far, all of my experience involves sugar washes,
                                > and my first grain experiment will most likely be with oatmeal. I
                                find it interesting that there is so little mention of oats. Oats have
                                30 to 33 percent sugar, but very little spirits come from oats
                                >
                                > Robert
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                > From: bleu jeanzz
                                > To: "mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com"
                                > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:39 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer. They are
                                worthless in a pot still. Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel. I
                                don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for
                                anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                >

                              • RLB
                                White Bear: So far, I have read about 3 oat beers and one oat liquor, and that is made in the UK if  remembered correctly.  Oats might be what I am looking
                                Message 15 of 20 , Feb 2, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  White Bear:

                                  So far, I have read about 3 oat beers and one oat liquor, and that is made in the UK if  remembered correctly.  Oats might be what I am looking for as a way to stand out when my goal is reached of one day opening a micro-distillery.  In my area corn and oats are a major agriculture commodities that are grown to sell rather than use, so my ingredients would come directly from the farm.  Just wish they grew wheat, barley, and rye in this area.  Will have to look into buckwheat too.

                                  Robert    






                                  From: White Bear <sha_man_1@...>
                                  To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2013 5:38 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                                   
                                  ZBob-
                                    Thanks for the information, explanation and graph, I'm going to have to do a few graphs myself.
                                    Do you or anyone else know where there is an Oatmeal Whiskey recipe, this sounds intriguing.
                                  WB
                                   
                                   

                                  From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                                  To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 5:55 PM
                                  Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                                   
                                  Robert, I'm not sure where you heard the bit about boiling point of a
                                  mixture "freezing" at the boiling point of each volatile liquid in the
                                  mixture (I'm assuming until that specific liquids is all boiled off?),
                                  but that's not how boiling points work, and operating on that assumption
                                  will just drive you crazy.

                                  As determined by Roualt's law, the boiling point of a mixture of
                                  volatile liquids is determined solely by the mass and molecular weight
                                  of each (and all) compound, and the atmospheric pressure, and the
                                  composition of the vapor boiled off is also determined by those same
                                  factors. As boiling progresses, the composition of the boiling wash
                                  changes gradually, so the boiling point also changes gradually.

                                  Contrary to some practices, I am an experienced potstiller that does use
                                  a head thermometer, although I'd never use it to make cuts on an unknown
                                  wash, because different washes benefit from cuts at different
                                  temperatures. For the sake of general information, I've graphed a lot of
                                  still run head temperatures with time, and once the wash boils, the
                                  curve is always as smooth as I expect it to be.

                                  The best model to understand how the curve is continuous is to look at a
                                  graph of boiling points and percentages for a simple binary mixture of
                                  ethanol and water. Yes, it's a first approximation of wash behavior, but
                                  it's a pretty darned good first approximation.

                                  http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/alcoholvaporCelsius.gif

                                  The blue curve represents the percentage of ethanol in the liquid over
                                  the range of boiling points, and the red curve represents the percentage
                                  of ethanol in the vapor that boiled off at that boiling point.

                                  From that curve, if you have a 10% wash, it will boil at ~93C (199F) and
                                  as the percent of ethanol in the wash approaches zero, the temperature
                                  of the wash will approach 100C (212 F). As long as the mixture is
                                  boiling, you have absolutely no control over its temperature; turning up
                                  the power only makes vapor faster.

                                  Just as a very very general idea, and because I'm on the road and don't
                                  have access to my files (but I do have some graphs in my book), for the
                                  grocery store wine I distilled in my coffeepot still, foreshots and
                                  heads were up to ~91C (196F) and hearts were 91-94C (196-201F).
                                  Everything after that was tails, which I still collect and distill again
                                  with other junk alcohol.

                                  I know a few people who have made oat whiskey. I'm not sure why more
                                  don't.

                                  Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                                  --- In mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com, RLB wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I am a newbie to distillation, 6 total stripping runs, and not not one
                                  finish run to date. My family were not moonshiners, and with AFT and
                                  TTB getting a woody every time they think someone is Moonshining I will
                                  pass on trying to become a still hand. This is all a new learning
                                  process for me know matter how much I read.
                                  >
                                  > I use a thermometer to see where my boiling points are in my new pot
                                  still. All of my web site reading states that temps will freeze every
                                  time it hits a new alcohol boiling point no matter how high you set your
                                  heat. For me Ethanol starts to boil from 191 to 193, so I sniff the
                                  end of my condenser to define all of the different cuts in a stripping
                                  run. For my stripping runs, my fore-shots will curl your toes, heads
                                  has an unpleasant strong smell, hearts has a strong smell with a sweet
                                  bouquet, and tails smell like a wet dirty sock. What I mean by strong
                                  smell: Take a sniff of +50% abv alcohol vapor. Who needs to ever drink
                                  when those vapors will make you as drunk without ever having a hangover.
                                  Yes, it might be true that most experienced people do not use a
                                  thermometer in a pot still, but I find knowing where the different
                                  boiling points are as being very helpful in my learning process. So
                                  far, all of my experience involves sugar washes,
                                  > and my first grain experiment will most likely be with oatmeal. I
                                  find it interesting that there is so little mention of oats. Oats have
                                  30 to 33 percent sugar, but very little spirits come from oats
                                  >
                                  > Robert
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ________________________________
                                  > From: bleu jeanzz
                                  > To: "mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com"
                                  > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:39 PM
                                  > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer. They are
                                  worthless in a pot still. Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel. I
                                  don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for
                                  anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ________________________________
                                  >



                                • cnapier@att.net
                                  Figured a thermometer would be too easy.....:) Got a 2 gallon pot still.......stove top setup. Just going to start the heat low.........watch the pot........
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Feb 2, 2013
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Figured a thermometer would be too easy.....:)

                                    Got a 2 gallon pot still.......stove top setup.

                                    Just going to start the heat low.........watch the pot........

                                    Turn the heat up until I get the 2 drops per second.

                                    The follow the procedures below.

                                    This will be my second sugar shine run.

                                    And I'm learning quick,,,,,

                                    Many thanks,
                                    Claude




                                    From: bleu jeanzz <Bleujeanzz@...>
                                    To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Sat, February 2, 2013 5:05:42 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                                     

                                    I do it the way most pot stillers do, slowly heat wash, when it starts to drip run it at one to 2 drops per second, till you take the fores, then bump the heat to 4 drops per second, or a broken stream, about the same think IMO.  Then when heads are done crank it up to barely a steady stream and keep it there thru hearts.  Then crank it to the max of your condensor to harvest the tails for future use, or forget em and drain tank when cooled.

                                    Trying to run a pot with a thermometer is nonsense, if someone wants to believe it helps em, fine, but its still nonsense.

                                    bleu


                                    From: "cnapier@..." <cnapier@...>
                                    To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 2:04 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                                     
                                    Excellent info......

                                    So no thermometer?

                                    Where do you set the initial temp setting at then?

                                    Thanks,
                                    Claude




                                    From: bleu jeanzz <Bleujeanzz@...>
                                    To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Fri, February 1, 2013 3:21:45 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                                     
                                    Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer.  They are worthless in a pot still.  Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel.  I don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.



                                    From: RLB <last2blast@...>
                                    To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 5:13 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                                     
                                    One of the biggest questions I have about temps is the difference between stripping temps and finish temps?  My wash starts at around 7 to 10% abv.  I toss from 150 to 184, and collect 185 to 205.  Water is greatly reduce in stripping, so what kind of temp cuts can I expect in my first and/or second finish runs.  One would think the boil temps would be much closer to their boiling points after a stripping run in a pot still.

                                    Robert



                                    From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                                    To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 6:14 PM
                                    Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                                     
                                    To answer this quaestion meaningfully, I need to find out if we are talking about potstills or reflux stills. In a typical (and ideal) potstill, the head temperature is very close to the boiling point of the wash, and if the wash isn't boiling yet, the head temperature has no meaning other than you are not distilling yet.

                                    In a reflux still the head thermometer is measuring the temperature of the mostly-separated vapor at the top of the column, after it has been condensed and re-vaporized a number of times. This temperature will always be lower than the temperature of the boiling wash way down in the boiler.

                                    No matter which kind of still you are operating, you only need to pitch the foreshots on the first distillation. Foreshots are the really bad-tasting and -smelling part that contains most of the acetone, acetaldehyde. methanol, and ethyl acetate. After the foreshots come the heads, which you can drink (and do, when you buy cheap whiskey) but it will taste a bit harsh and you'll get more headaches (again, just like cheap whiskey, and for the same reason). It's up to your nose and palate how much you set aside as heads.

                                    As far as what comes off before 74C (and I'm guessing you really mean 78C, the boiling point of pure ethanol), in a potstill, absolutely nothing, because while pure ethanol boils at ~78C, the stuff you have in your boiler is a far cry from pure ethanol, boiling in the low 90's probably. That means at 74, or 78, your boiler isn't boiling yet and you're not distilling yet, at least not at a rate that will let you finish a still run in less than a couple of weeks, or maybe months. Ok, on some fruit washes, you'll get 2 or 3 drops of some really vile stuff at lower head temps.

                                    It's a very commonly (and dearly) held misconception that if you hold the wash temperature at 78C, you'll get pure ethanol out, and it just doesn't happen that way.

                                    On the other hand, if you have a very good reflux still, and operate it well, you can see product coming out at very slightly over 78C, if you are tuning for "pure" (really ~95.6%). If you tune your reflux still to get a lower head temperature, your output will be less "pure" (read "more flavor").

                                    Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Paolo Cucinotta wrote:
                                    >
                                    > wouldnt this be coming off sub 74C degrees so wouldnt it contain methadone?
                                    > I have the same question.
                                    >
                                    > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:34 AM, RonaldP wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > **
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > If I'm distilling a wash and collecting and discarding the head. If I
                                    > > re-distill whats left, do I discard the first 50ml of the head again or
                                    > > not. If your running a wash for flavor, dose your distillation temp run a
                                    > > little higher than if your just going for higher ABV% ?
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >






                                  • tgfoitwoods
                                    Robert, Go here http://www.artisan-distiller.net/phpBB3/search.php and search for keyword oat . You ll find quite a bit. Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller ...
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Feb 2, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Robert,

                                      Go here http://www.artisan-distiller.net/phpBB3/search.php
                                      and search for keyword "oat". You'll find quite a bit.

                                      Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB wrote:
                                      >
                                      > White Bear:
                                      >
                                      > So far, I have read about 3 oat beers and one oat liquor, and that is
                                      made in the UK if remembered correctly. Oats might be what I
                                      am looking for as a way to stand out when my goal is reached of one day
                                      opening a micro-distillery. In my area corn and oats are a major
                                      agriculture commodities that are grown to sell rather than use, so my
                                      ingredients would come directly from the farm. Just wish they grew
                                      wheat, barley, and rye in this area. Will have to look into
                                      buckwheat too.
                                      >
                                      > Robert  Â
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ________________________________
                                      > From: White Bear
                                      > To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com"
                                      > Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2013 5:38 AM
                                      > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Â
                                      > ZBob-
                                      > Â Thanks for the information, explanation and graph, I'm going to
                                      have to do a few graphs myself.
                                      > Â Do you or anyone else know where there is an Oatmeal Whiskey
                                      recipe, this sounds intriguing.
                                      > WB
                                      > Â
                                      > Â
                                      >
                                      > From: tgfoitwoods
                                      > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 5:55 PM
                                      > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                                      >
                                      > Â
                                      > Robert, I'm not sure where you heard the bit about boiling point of a
                                      > mixture "freezing" at the boiling point of each volatile liquid in the
                                      > mixture (I'm assuming until that specific liquids is all boiled off?),
                                      > but that's not how boiling points work, and operating on that
                                      assumption
                                      > will just drive you crazy.
                                      >
                                      > As determined by Roualt's law, the boiling point of a mixture of
                                      > volatile liquids is determined solely by the mass and molecular weight
                                      > of each (and all) compound, and the atmospheric pressure, and the
                                      > composition of the vapor boiled off is also determined by those same
                                      > factors. As boiling progresses, the composition of the boiling wash
                                      > changes gradually, so the boiling point also changes gradually.
                                      >
                                      > Contrary to some practices, I am an experienced potstiller that does
                                      use
                                      > a head thermometer, although I'd never use it to make cuts on an
                                      unknown
                                      > wash, because different washes benefit from cuts at different
                                      > temperatures. For the sake of general information, I've graphed a lot
                                      of
                                      > still run head temperatures with time, and once the wash boils, the
                                      > curve is always as smooth as I expect it to be.
                                      >
                                      > The best model to understand how the curve is continuous is to look at
                                      a
                                      > graph of boiling points and percentages for a simple binary mixture
                                      of
                                      > ethanol and water. Yes, it's a first approximation of wash behavior,
                                      but
                                      > it's a pretty darned good first approximation.
                                      >
                                      > http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/alcoholvaporCelsius.gif
                                      >
                                      > The blue curve represents the percentage of ethanol in the liquid over
                                      > the range of boiling points, and the red curve represents the
                                      percentage
                                      > of ethanol in the vapor that boiled off at that boiling point.
                                      >
                                      > From that curve, if you have a 10% wash, it will boil at ~93C (199F)
                                      and
                                      > as the percent of ethanol in the wash approaches zero, the temperature
                                      > of the wash will approach 100C (212 F). As long as the mixture is
                                      > boiling, you have absolutely no control over its temperature; turning
                                      up
                                      > the power only makes vapor faster.
                                      >
                                      > Just as a very very general idea, and because I'm on the road and
                                      don't
                                      > have access to my files (but I do have some graphs in my book), for
                                      the
                                      > grocery store wine I distilled in my coffeepot still, foreshots and
                                      > heads were up to ~91C (196F) and hearts were 91-94C (196-201F).
                                      > Everything after that was tails, which I still collect and distill
                                      again
                                      > with other junk alcohol.
                                      >
                                      > I know a few people who have made oat whiskey. I'm not sure why more
                                      > don't.
                                      >
                                      > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                                      >
                                      > --- In mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com, RLB wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > I am a newbie to distillation, 6 total stripping runs, and not not
                                      one
                                      > finish run to date. My family were not moonshiners, and with AFT and
                                      > TTB getting a woody every time they think someone is Moonshining I
                                      will
                                      > pass on trying to become a still hand. This is all a new learning
                                      > process for me know matter how much I read.
                                      > >
                                      > > I use a thermometer to see where my boiling points are in my new pot
                                      > still. All of my web site reading states that temps will freeze every
                                      > time it hits a new alcohol boiling point no matter how high you set
                                      your
                                      > heat. For me Ethanol starts to boil from 191 to 193, so I sniff the
                                      > end of my condenser to define all of the different cuts in a stripping
                                      > run. For my stripping runs, my fore-shots will curl your toes, heads
                                      > has an unpleasant strong smell, hearts has a strong smell with a sweet
                                      > bouquet, and tails smell like a wet dirty sock. What I mean by strong
                                      > smell: Take a sniff of +50% abv alcohol vapor. Who needs to ever
                                      drink
                                      > when those vapors will make you as drunk without ever having a
                                      hangover.
                                      > Yes, it might be true that most experienced people do not use a
                                      > thermometer in a pot still, but I find knowing where the different
                                      > boiling points are as being very helpful in my learning process. So
                                      > far, all of my experience involves sugar washes,
                                      > > and my first grain experiment will most likely be with oatmeal. I
                                      > find it interesting that there is so little mention of oats. Oats
                                      have
                                      > 30 to 33 percent sugar, but very little spirits come from oats
                                      > >
                                      > > Robert
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ________________________________
                                      > > From: bleu jeanzz
                                      > > To: "mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com"
                                      > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:39 PM
                                      > > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer. They are
                                      > worthless in a pot still. Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel. I
                                      > don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for
                                      > anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ________________________________
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • White Bear
                                      Robert-   Good luck in you micro-distillery venture, I hope it works out for you.  I ll have to do some research for oat based liquor thanks. WB
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Feb 2, 2013
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Robert-
                                          Good luck in you micro-distillery venture, I hope it works out for you.  I'll have to do some research for oat based liquor thanks.
                                        WB
                                         
                                         

                                        From: RLB <last2blast@...>
                                        To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2013 9:06 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                                         
                                        White Bear: So far, I have read about 3 oat beers and one oat liquor, and that is made in the UK if  remembered correctly.  Oats might be what I am looking for as a way to stand out when my goal is reached of one day opening a micro-distillery.  In my area corn and oats are a major agriculture commodities that are grown to sell rather than use, so my ingredients would come directly from the farm.  Just wish they grew wheat, barley, and rye in this area.  Will have to look into buckwheat too. Robert    


                                        From: White Bear <sha_man_1@...>
                                        To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2013 5:38 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                                         
                                        ZBob-
                                          Thanks for the information, explanation and graph, I'm going to have to do a few graphs myself.
                                          Do you or anyone else know where there is an Oatmeal Whiskey recipe, this sounds intriguing.
                                        WB
                                         
                                         

                                        From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                                        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 5:55 PM
                                        Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                                         
                                        Robert, I'm not sure where you heard the bit about boiling point of a mixture "freezing" at the boiling point of each volatile liquid in the mixture (I'm assuming until that specific liquids is all boiled off?), but that's not how boiling points work, and operating on that assumption will just drive you crazy. As determined by Roualt's law, the boiling point of a mixture of volatile liquids is determined solely by the mass and molecular weight of each (and all) compound, and the atmospheric pressure, and the composition of the vapor boiled off is also determined by those same factors. As boiling progresses, the composition of the boiling wash changes gradually, so the boiling point also changes gradually. Contrary to some practices, I am an experienced potstiller that does use a head thermometer, although I'd never use it to make cuts on an unknown wash, because different washes benefit from cuts at different temperatures. For the sake of general information, I've graphed a lot of still run head temperatures with time, and once the wash boils, the curve is always as smooth as I expect it to be. The best model to understand how the curve is continuous is to look at a graph of boiling points and percentages for a simple binary mixture of ethanol and water. Yes, it's a first approximation of wash behavior, but it's a pretty darned good first approximation. http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/alcoholvaporCelsius.gif The blue curve represents the percentage of ethanol in the liquid over the range of boiling points, and the red curve represents the percentage of ethanol in the vapor that boiled off at that boiling point. From that curve, if you have a 10% wash, it will boil at ~93C (199F) and as the percent of ethanol in the wash approaches zero, the temperature of the wash will approach 100C (212 F). As long as the mixture is boiling, you have absolutely no control over its temperature; turning up the power only makes vapor faster. Just as a very very general idea, and because I'm on the road and don't have access to my files (but I do have some graphs in my book), for the grocery store wine I distilled in my coffeepot still, foreshots and heads were up to ~91C (196F) and hearts were 91-94C (196-201F). Everything after that was tails, which I still collect and distill again with other junk alcohol. I know a few people who have made oat whiskey. I'm not sure why more don't. Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                                        --- In mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com, RLB wrote: > > I am a newbie to distillation, 6 total stripping runs, and not not one finish run to date. My family were not moonshiners, and with AFT and TTB getting a woody every time they think someone is Moonshining I will pass on trying to become a still hand. This is all a new learning process for me know matter how much I read. > > I use a thermometer to see where my boiling points are in my new pot still. All of my web site reading states that temps will freeze every time it hits a new alcohol boiling point no matter how high you set your heat. For me Ethanol starts to boil from 191 to 193, so I sniff the end of my condenser to define all of the different cuts in a stripping run. For my stripping runs, my fore-shots will curl your toes, heads has an unpleasant strong smell, hearts has a strong smell with a sweet bouquet, and tails smell like a wet dirty sock. What I mean by strong smell: Take a sniff of +50% abv alcohol vapor. Who needs to ever drink when those vapors will make you as drunk without ever having a hangover. Yes, it might be true that most experienced people do not use a thermometer in a pot still, but I find knowing where the different boiling points are as being very helpful in my learning process. So far, all of my experience involves sugar washes, > and my first grain experiment will most likely be with oatmeal. I find it interesting that there is so little mention of oats. Oats have 30 to 33 percent sugar, but very little spirits come from oats > > Robert > > > > > ________________________________ > From: bleu jeanzz > To: "mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com" > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:39 PM > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ?? > > > > Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer. They are worthless in a pot still. Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel. I don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for anything other than entertainment value on a pot still. > > > > ________________________________ >
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