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Re: Re-distillation ??

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  • David Eastham
    If by head you mean foreshots then once you ve chucked the 50ml if you distill again this has already gone so you dont need to chuck any more out. I m no
    Message 1 of 20 , Jan 30, 2013
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      If by head you mean foreshots then once you've chucked the 50ml if you distill again this has already gone so you dont need to chuck any more out. I'm no expert on pot distilling, I use reflux for purity but I believe temperatures do run higher with pot distillation.
      Cheers
      Dave E
      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "RonaldP" wrote:
      >
      > If I'm distilling a wash and collecting and discarding the head. If I re-distill whats left, do I discard the first 50ml of the head again or not. If your running a wash for flavor, dose your distillation temp run a little higher than if your just going for higher ABV% ?
      >
    • RLB
      Most people automatically toss the first 50 ml no matter how many times you distill alcohol.  At most you are tossing 50 ml of heads, and that is not a big
      Message 2 of 20 , Jan 30, 2013
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        Most people automatically toss the first 50 ml no matter how many times you distill alcohol.  At most you are tossing 50 ml of heads, and that is not a big deal in the scope of things.  My future plan is to triple distill all my spirits before placing them into containers with burnt oak slats. That 200 ml out of 2 gals will be used for industrial use.  Why toss something that can be used as a cleaning product?

        Robert
         


        From: David Eastham <planetgong0@...>
        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 1:12 PM
        Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

         

        If by head you mean foreshots then once you've chucked the 50ml if you distill again this has already gone so you dont need to chuck any more out. I'm no expert on pot distilling, I use reflux for purity but I believe temperatures do run higher with pot distillation.
        Cheers
        Dave E
        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "RonaldP" wrote:
        >
        > If I'm distilling a wash and collecting and discarding the head. If I re-distill whats left, do I discard the first 50ml of the head again or not. If your running a wash for flavor, dose your distillation temp run a little higher than if your just going for higher ABV% ?
        >



      • Paolo Cucinotta
        wouldnt this be coming off sub 74C degrees so wouldnt it contain methadone? I have the same question.
        Message 3 of 20 , Jan 30, 2013
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          wouldnt this be coming off sub 74C degrees so wouldnt it contain methadone? I have the same question.

          On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:34 AM, RonaldP <mrdoyleprice@...> wrote:
           

          If I'm distilling a wash and collecting and discarding the head. If I re-distill whats left, do I discard the first 50ml of the head again or not. If your running a wash for flavor, dose your distillation temp run a little higher than if your just going for higher ABV% ?


        • ahandyman59
          Methadone is a heroin substitute used to get people off heroin and I seriously doubt any of that is found in typical mash, wort, etc. I think you mean
          Message 4 of 20 , Jan 30, 2013
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            Methadone is a heroin substitute used to get people off heroin and I seriously doubt any of that is found in typical mash, wort, etc.  I think you mean methanol, which is wood alcohol…

             

             

            From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paolo Cucinotta
            Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 11:12 AM
            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re-distillation ??

             

             

            wouldnt this be coming off sub 74C degrees so wouldnt it contain methadone? I have the same question.

            On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:34 AM, RonaldP <mrdoyleprice@...> wrote:

             

            If I'm distilling a wash and collecting and discarding the head. If I re-distill whats left, do I discard the first 50ml of the head again or not. If your running a wash for flavor, dose your distillation temp run a little higher than if your just going for higher ABV% ?

             

          • jsmeyer_2000
            yes toss the first 50ml on redistill ________________________________ From: Paolo Cucinotta To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com Sent:
            Message 5 of 20 , Jan 30, 2013
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              yes toss the first 50ml on redistill


              From: Paolo Cucinotta <cucinotta34@...>
              To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 1:12 PM
              Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re-distillation ??

               
              wouldnt this be coming off sub 74C degrees so wouldnt it contain methadone? I have the same question.

              On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:34 AM, RonaldP <mrdoyleprice@...> wrote:
               
              If I'm distilling a wash and collecting and discarding the head. If I re-distill whats left, do I discard the first 50ml of the head again or not. If your running a wash for flavor, dose your distillation temp run a little higher than if your just going for higher ABV% ?




            • tgfoitwoods
              To answer this quaestion meaningfully, I need to find out if we are talking about potstills or reflux stills. In a typical (and ideal) potstill, the head
              Message 6 of 20 , Jan 31, 2013
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                To answer this quaestion meaningfully, I need to find out if we are talking about potstills or reflux stills. In a typical (and ideal) potstill, the head temperature is very close to the boiling point of the wash, and if the wash isn't boiling yet, the head temperature has no meaning other than you are not distilling yet.

                In a reflux still the head thermometer is measuring the temperature of the mostly-separated vapor at the top of the column, after it has been condensed and re-vaporized a number of times. This temperature will always be lower than the temperature of the boiling wash way down in the boiler.

                No matter which kind of still you are operating, you only need to pitch the foreshots on the first distillation. Foreshots are the really bad-tasting and -smelling part that contains most of the acetone, acetaldehyde. methanol, and ethyl acetate. After the foreshots come the heads, which you can drink (and do, when you buy cheap whiskey) but it will taste a bit harsh and you'll get more headaches (again, just like cheap whiskey, and for the same reason). It's up to your nose and palate how much you set aside as heads.

                As far as what comes off before 74C (and I'm guessing you really mean 78C, the boiling point of pure ethanol), in a potstill, absolutely nothing, because while pure ethanol boils at ~78C, the stuff you have in your boiler is a far cry from pure ethanol, boiling in the low 90's probably. That means at 74, or 78, your boiler isn't boiling yet and you're not distilling yet, at least not at a rate that will let you finish a still run in less than a couple of weeks, or maybe months. Ok, on some fruit washes, you'll get 2 or 3 drops of some really vile stuff at lower head temps.

                It's a very commonly (and dearly) held misconception that if you hold the wash temperature at 78C, you'll get pure ethanol out, and it just doesn't happen that way.

                On the other hand, if you have a very good reflux still, and operate it well, you can see product coming out at very slightly over 78C, if you are tuning for "pure" (really ~95.6%). If you tune your reflux still to get a lower head temperature, your output will be less "pure" (read "more flavor").

                Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Paolo Cucinotta wrote:
                >
                > wouldnt this be coming off sub 74C degrees so wouldnt it contain methadone?
                > I have the same question.
                >
                > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:34 AM, RonaldP wrote:
                >
                > > **
                > >
                > >
                > > If I'm distilling a wash and collecting and discarding the head. If I
                > > re-distill whats left, do I discard the first 50ml of the head again or
                > > not. If your running a wash for flavor, dose your distillation temp run a
                > > little higher than if your just going for higher ABV% ?
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
              • RLB
                One of the biggest questions I have about temps is the difference between stripping temps and finish temps?  My wash starts at around 7 to 10% abv.  I toss
                Message 7 of 20 , Jan 31, 2013
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                  One of the biggest questions I have about temps is the difference between stripping temps and finish temps?  My wash starts at around 7 to 10% abv.  I toss from 150 to 184, and collect 185 to 205.  Water is greatly reduce in stripping, so what kind of temp cuts can I expect in my first and/or second finish runs.  One would think the boil temps would be much closer to their boiling points after a stripping run in a pot still.

                  Robert



                  From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                  To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 6:14 PM
                  Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                   
                  To answer this quaestion meaningfully, I need to find out if we are talking about potstills or reflux stills. In a typical (and ideal) potstill, the head temperature is very close to the boiling point of the wash, and if the wash isn't boiling yet, the head temperature has no meaning other than you are not distilling yet.

                  In a reflux still the head thermometer is measuring the temperature of the mostly-separated vapor at the top of the column, after it has been condensed and re-vaporized a number of times. This temperature will always be lower than the temperature of the boiling wash way down in the boiler.

                  No matter which kind of still you are operating, you only need to pitch the foreshots on the first distillation. Foreshots are the really bad-tasting and -smelling part that contains most of the acetone, acetaldehyde. methanol, and ethyl acetate. After the foreshots come the heads, which you can drink (and do, when you buy cheap whiskey) but it will taste a bit harsh and you'll get more headaches (again, just like cheap whiskey, and for the same reason). It's up to your nose and palate how much you set aside as heads.

                  As far as what comes off before 74C (and I'm guessing you really mean 78C, the boiling point of pure ethanol), in a potstill, absolutely nothing, because while pure ethanol boils at ~78C, the stuff you have in your boiler is a far cry from pure ethanol, boiling in the low 90's probably. That means at 74, or 78, your boiler isn't boiling yet and you're not distilling yet, at least not at a rate that will let you finish a still run in less than a couple of weeks, or maybe months. Ok, on some fruit washes, you'll get 2 or 3 drops of some really vile stuff at lower head temps.

                  It's a very commonly (and dearly) held misconception that if you hold the wash temperature at 78C, you'll get pure ethanol out, and it just doesn't happen that way.

                  On the other hand, if you have a very good reflux still, and operate it well, you can see product coming out at very slightly over 78C, if you are tuning for "pure" (really ~95.6%). If you tune your reflux still to get a lower head temperature, your output will be less "pure" (read "more flavor").

                  Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Paolo Cucinotta wrote:
                  >
                  > wouldnt this be coming off sub 74C degrees so wouldnt it contain methadone?
                  > I have the same question.
                  >
                  > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:34 AM, RonaldP wrote:
                  >
                  > > **
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > If I'm distilling a wash and collecting and discarding the head. If I
                  > > re-distill whats left, do I discard the first 50ml of the head again or
                  > > not. If your running a wash for flavor, dose your distillation temp run a
                  > > little higher than if your just going for higher ABV% ?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >


                • bleu jeanzz
                  Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer.  They are worthless in a pot still.  Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel.  I don t know anyone who
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jan 31, 2013
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                    Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer.  They are worthless in a pot still.  Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel.  I don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.



                    From: RLB <last2blast@...>
                    To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 5:13 PM
                    Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                     
                    One of the biggest questions I have about temps is the difference between stripping temps and finish temps?  My wash starts at around 7 to 10% abv.  I toss from 150 to 184, and collect 185 to 205.  Water is greatly reduce in stripping, so what kind of temp cuts can I expect in my first and/or second finish runs.  One would think the boil temps would be much closer to their boiling points after a stripping run in a pot still.

                    Robert



                    From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                    To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 6:14 PM
                    Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                     
                    To answer this quaestion meaningfully, I need to find out if we are talking about potstills or reflux stills. In a typical (and ideal) potstill, the head temperature is very close to the boiling point of the wash, and if the wash isn't boiling yet, the head temperature has no meaning other than you are not distilling yet.

                    In a reflux still the head thermometer is measuring the temperature of the mostly-separated vapor at the top of the column, after it has been condensed and re-vaporized a number of times. This temperature will always be lower than the temperature of the boiling wash way down in the boiler.

                    No matter which kind of still you are operating, you only need to pitch the foreshots on the first distillation. Foreshots are the really bad-tasting and -smelling part that contains most of the acetone, acetaldehyde. methanol, and ethyl acetate. After the foreshots come the heads, which you can drink (and do, when you buy cheap whiskey) but it will taste a bit harsh and you'll get more headaches (again, just like cheap whiskey, and for the same reason). It's up to your nose and palate how much you set aside as heads.

                    As far as what comes off before 74C (and I'm guessing you really mean 78C, the boiling point of pure ethanol), in a potstill, absolutely nothing, because while pure ethanol boils at ~78C, the stuff you have in your boiler is a far cry from pure ethanol, boiling in the low 90's probably. That means at 74, or 78, your boiler isn't boiling yet and you're not distilling yet, at least not at a rate that will let you finish a still run in less than a couple of weeks, or maybe months. Ok, on some fruit washes, you'll get 2 or 3 drops of some really vile stuff at lower head temps.

                    It's a very commonly (and dearly) held misconception that if you hold the wash temperature at 78C, you'll get pure ethanol out, and it just doesn't happen that way.

                    On the other hand, if you have a very good reflux still, and operate it well, you can see product coming out at very slightly over 78C, if you are tuning for "pure" (really ~95.6%). If you tune your reflux still to get a lower head temperature, your output will be less "pure" (read "more flavor").

                    Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Paolo Cucinotta wrote:
                    >
                    > wouldnt this be coming off sub 74C degrees so wouldnt it contain methadone?
                    > I have the same question.
                    >
                    > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:34 AM, RonaldP wrote:
                    >
                    > > **
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > If I'm distilling a wash and collecting and discarding the head. If I
                    > > re-distill whats left, do I discard the first 50ml of the head again or
                    > > not. If your running a wash for flavor, dose your distillation temp run a
                    > > little higher than if your just going for higher ABV% ?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >




                  • cnapier@att.net
                    Excellent info...... So no thermometer? Where do you set the initial temp setting at then? Thanks, Claude ________________________________ From: bleu jeanzz
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 1, 2013
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                      Excellent info......

                      So no thermometer?

                      Where do you set the initial temp setting at then?

                      Thanks,
                      Claude




                      From: bleu jeanzz <Bleujeanzz@...>
                      To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Fri, February 1, 2013 3:21:45 PM
                      Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                       

                      Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer.  They are worthless in a pot still.  Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel.  I don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.



                      From: RLB <last2blast@...>
                      To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 5:13 PM
                      Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                       
                      One of the biggest questions I have about temps is the difference between stripping temps and finish temps?  My wash starts at around 7 to 10% abv.  I toss from 150 to 184, and collect 185 to 205.  Water is greatly reduce in stripping, so what kind of temp cuts can I expect in my first and/or second finish runs.  One would think the boil temps would be much closer to their boiling points after a stripping run in a pot still.

                      Robert



                      From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                      To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 6:14 PM
                      Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                       
                      To answer this quaestion meaningfully, I need to find out if we are talking about potstills or reflux stills. In a typical (and ideal) potstill, the head temperature is very close to the boiling point of the wash, and if the wash isn't boiling yet, the head temperature has no meaning other than you are not distilling yet.

                      In a reflux still the head thermometer is measuring the temperature of the mostly-separated vapor at the top of the column, after it has been condensed and re-vaporized a number of times. This temperature will always be lower than the temperature of the boiling wash way down in the boiler.

                      No matter which kind of still you are operating, you only need to pitch the foreshots on the first distillation. Foreshots are the really bad-tasting and -smelling part that contains most of the acetone, acetaldehyde. methanol, and ethyl acetate. After the foreshots come the heads, which you can drink (and do, when you buy cheap whiskey) but it will taste a bit harsh and you'll get more headaches (again, just like cheap whiskey, and for the same reason). It's up to your nose and palate how much you set aside as heads.

                      As far as what comes off before 74C (and I'm guessing you really mean 78C, the boiling point of pure ethanol), in a potstill, absolutely nothing, because while pure ethanol boils at ~78C, the stuff you have in your boiler is a far cry from pure ethanol, boiling in the low 90's probably. That means at 74, or 78, your boiler isn't boiling yet and you're not distilling yet, at least not at a rate that will let you finish a still run in less than a couple of weeks, or maybe months. Ok, on some fruit washes, you'll get 2 or 3 drops of some really vile stuff at lower head temps.

                      It's a very commonly (and dearly) held misconception that if you hold the wash temperature at 78C, you'll get pure ethanol out, and it just doesn't happen that way.

                      On the other hand, if you have a very good reflux still, and operate it well, you can see product coming out at very slightly over 78C, if you are tuning for "pure" (really ~95.6%). If you tune your reflux still to get a lower head temperature, your output will be less "pure" (read "more flavor").

                      Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Paolo Cucinotta wrote:
                      >
                      > wouldnt this be coming off sub 74C degrees so wouldnt it contain methadone?
                      > I have the same question.
                      >
                      > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:34 AM, RonaldP wrote:
                      >
                      > > **
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > If I'm distilling a wash and collecting and discarding the head. If I
                      > > re-distill whats left, do I discard the first 50ml of the head again or
                      > > not. If your running a wash for flavor, dose your distillation temp run a
                      > > little higher than if your just going for higher ABV% ?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >




                    • RLB
                      I am a newbie to distillation, 6 total stripping runs, and not not one finish run to date.  My family were not moonshiners, and with AFT and TTB getting a
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 1, 2013
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                        I am a newbie to distillation, 6 total stripping runs, and not not one finish run to date.  My family were not moonshiners, and with AFT and TTB getting a woody every time they think someone is Moonshining I will pass on trying to become a still hand.  This is all a new learning process for me know matter how much I read.

                        I use a thermometer to see where my boiling points are in my new pot still.  All of my web site reading states that temps will freeze every time it hits a new alcohol boiling point no matter how high you set your heat.   For me Ethanol starts to boil from 191 to 193, so I sniff the end of my condenser to define all of the different cuts in a stripping run.  For my stripping runs, my fore-shots will curl your toes, heads has an unpleasant strong smell, hearts has a strong smell with a sweet bouquet, and tails smell like a wet dirty sock.  What I mean by strong smell: Take a sniff of +50% abv alcohol vapor.  Who needs to ever drink when those vapors will make you as drunk without ever having a hangover.  Yes, it might be true that most experienced people do not use a thermometer in a pot still, but I find knowing where the different boiling points are as being very helpful in my learning process.  So far, all of my experience involves sugar washes, and my first grain experiment will most likely be with oatmeal.  I find it interesting that there is so little mention of oats.  Oats have 30 to 33 percent sugar, but very little spirits come from oats

                        Robert 



                        From: bleu jeanzz <Bleujeanzz@...>
                        To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:39 PM
                        Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                         
                        Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer.  They are worthless in a pot still.  Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel.  I don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.





                      • White Bear
                        Claude-   I always use a thermometer with my pot still, It works great if placed just before where the product leaves the still into the condensor and
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 1, 2013
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                          Claude-
                          � I always use a thermometer with my pot still, It works great if placed�just before where the product leaves the still into the condensor�and monitored correctly.� Design your pot still with the placement in mind and go for it.� Remember, NOTHING IS WRITTEN IN STONE AND EVERYONES RESULTS WILL BE DIFFERENT. Even mine are not exactly duplicated everytime.
                          WB

                          From: "cnapier@..."
                          To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 4:04 PM
                          Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                          Excellent info...... So no thermometer? Where do you set the initial temp setting at then? Thanks, Claude

                          From: bleu jeanzz
                          To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com"
                          Sent: Fri, February 1, 2013 3:21:45 PM
                          Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                          Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer.� They are worthless in a pot still.� Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel.� I don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.


                          From: RLB
                          To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com"
                          Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 5:13 PM
                          Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                          One of the biggest questions I have about temps is the difference between stripping temps and finish temps?� My wash starts at around 7 to 10% abv.� I toss from 150 to 184, and collect 185 to 205.� Water is greatly reduce in stripping, so what kind of temp cuts can I expect in my first and/or second finish runs.� One would think the boil temps would be much closer to their boiling points after a stripping run in a pot still. Robert


                          From: tgfoitwoods
                          To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 6:14 PM
                          Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                          To answer this quaestion meaningfully, I need to find out if we are talking about potstills or reflux stills. In a typical (and ideal) potstill, the head temperature is very close to the boiling point of the wash, and if the wash isn't boiling yet, the head temperature has no meaning other than you are not distilling yet. In a reflux still the head thermometer is measuring the temperature of the mostly-separated vapor at the top of the column, after it has been condensed and re-vaporized a number of times. This temperature will always be lower than the temperature of the boiling wash way down in the boiler. No matter which kind of still you are operating, you only need to pitch the foreshots on the first distillation. Foreshots are the really bad-tasting and -smelling part that contains most of the acetone, acetaldehyde. methanol, and ethyl acetate. After the foreshots come the heads, which you can drink (and do, when you buy cheap whiskey) but it will taste a bit harsh and you'll get more headaches (again, just like cheap whiskey, and for the same reason). It's up to your nose and palate how much you set aside as heads. As far as what comes off before 74C (and I'm guessing you really mean 78C, the boiling point of pure ethanol), in a potstill, absolutely nothing, because while pure ethanol boils at ~78C, the stuff you have in your boiler is a far cry from pure ethanol, boiling in the low 90's probably. That means at 74, or 78, your boiler isn't boiling yet and you're not distilling yet, at least not at a rate that will let you finish a still run in less than a couple of weeks, or maybe months. Ok, on some fruit washes, you'll get 2 or 3 drops of some really vile stuff at lower head temps. It's a very commonly (and dearly) held misconception that if you hold the wash temperature at 78C, you'll get pure ethanol out, and it just doesn't happen that way.
                          On the other hand, if you have a very good reflux still, and operate it well, you can see product coming out at very slightly over 78C, if you are tuning for "pure" (really ~95.6%). If you tune your reflux still to get a lower head temperature, your output will be less "pure" (read "more flavor"). Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Paolo Cucinotta wrote: > > wouldnt this be coming off sub 74C degrees so wouldnt it contain methadone? > I have the same question. > > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:34 AM, RonaldP wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > If I'm distilling a wash and collecting and discarding the head. If I > > re-distill whats left, do I discard the first 50ml of the head again or > > not. If your running a wash for flavor, dose your distillation temp run a > > little higher than if your just going for higher ABV% ? > > > > > > >
                        • tgfoitwoods
                          Robert, I m not sure where you heard the bit about boiling point of a mixture freezing at the boiling point of each volatile liquid in the mixture (I m
                          Message 12 of 20 , Feb 1, 2013
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                            Robert, I'm not sure where you heard the bit about boiling point of a
                            mixture "freezing" at the boiling point of each volatile liquid in the
                            mixture (I'm assuming until that specific liquids is all boiled off?),
                            but that's not how boiling points work, and operating on that assumption
                            will just drive you crazy.

                            As determined by Roualt's law, the boiling point of a mixture of
                            volatile liquids is determined solely by the mass and molecular weight
                            of each (and all) compound, and the atmospheric pressure, and the
                            composition of the vapor boiled off is also determined by those same
                            factors. As boiling progresses, the composition of the boiling wash
                            changes gradually, so the boiling point also changes gradually.

                            Contrary to some practices, I am an experienced potstiller that does use
                            a head thermometer, although I'd never use it to make cuts on an unknown
                            wash, because different washes benefit from cuts at different
                            temperatures. For the sake of general information, I've graphed a lot of
                            still run head temperatures with time, and once the wash boils, the
                            curve is always as smooth as I expect it to be.

                            The best model to understand how the curve is continuous is to look at a
                            graph of boiling points and percentages for a simple binary mixture of
                            ethanol and water. Yes, it's a first approximation of wash behavior, but
                            it's a pretty darned good first approximation.

                            http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/alcoholvaporCelsius.gif

                            The blue curve represents the percentage of ethanol in the liquid over
                            the range of boiling points, and the red curve represents the percentage
                            of ethanol in the vapor that boiled off at that boiling point.

                            From that curve, if you have a 10% wash, it will boil at ~93C (199F) and
                            as the percent of ethanol in the wash approaches zero, the temperature
                            of the wash will approach 100C (212 F). As long as the mixture is
                            boiling, you have absolutely no control over its temperature; turning up
                            the power only makes vapor faster.

                            Just as a very very general idea, and because I'm on the road and don't
                            have access to my files (but I do have some graphs in my book), for the
                            grocery store wine I distilled in my coffeepot still, foreshots and
                            heads were up to ~91C (196F) and hearts were 91-94C (196-201F).
                            Everything after that was tails, which I still collect and distill again
                            with other junk alcohol.

                            I know a few people who have made oat whiskey. I'm not sure why more
                            don't.

                            Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB wrote:
                            >
                            > I am a newbie to distillation, 6 total stripping runs, and not not one
                            finish run to date. My family were not moonshiners, and with AFT and
                            TTB getting a woody every time they think someone is Moonshining I will
                            pass on trying to become a still hand. This is all a new learning
                            process for me know matter how much I read.
                            >
                            > I use a thermometer to see where my boiling points are in my new pot
                            still. All of my web site reading states that temps will freeze every
                            time it hits a new alcohol boiling point no matter how high you set your
                            heat. For me Ethanol starts to boil from 191 to 193, so I sniff the
                            end of my condenser to define all of the different cuts in a stripping
                            run. For my stripping runs, my fore-shots will curl your toes, heads
                            has an unpleasant strong smell, hearts has a strong smell with a sweet
                            bouquet, and tails smell like a wet dirty sock. What I mean by strong
                            smell: Take a sniff of +50% abv alcohol vapor. Who needs to ever drink
                            when those vapors will make you as drunk without ever having a hangover.
                            Yes, it might be true that most experienced people do not use a
                            thermometer in a pot still, but I find knowing where the different
                            boiling points are as being very helpful in my learning process. So
                            far, all of my experience involves sugar washes,
                            > and my first grain experiment will most likely be with oatmeal. I
                            find it interesting that there is so little mention of oats. Oats have
                            30 to 33 percent sugar, but very little spirits come from oats
                            >
                            > Robert
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            > From: bleu jeanzz
                            > To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com"
                            > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:39 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer. They are
                            worthless in a pot still. Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel. I
                            don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for
                            anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            >
                          • bleu jeanzz
                            I do it the way most pot stillers do, slowly heat wash, when it starts to drip run it at one to 2 drops per second, till you take the fores, then bump the heat
                            Message 13 of 20 , Feb 1, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I do it the way most pot stillers do, slowly heat wash, when it starts to drip run it at one to 2 drops per second, till you take the fores, then bump the heat to 4 drops per second, or a broken stream, about the same think IMO.  Then when heads are done crank it up to barely a steady stream and keep it there thru hearts.  Then crank it to the max of your condensor to harvest the tails for future use, or forget em and drain tank when cooled.

                              Trying to run a pot with a thermometer is nonsense, if someone wants to believe it helps em, fine, but its still nonsense.

                              bleu


                              From: "cnapier@..." <cnapier@...>
                              To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 2:04 PM
                              Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                               
                              Excellent info......

                              So no thermometer?

                              Where do you set the initial temp setting at then?

                              Thanks,
                              Claude




                              From: bleu jeanzz <Bleujeanzz@...>
                              To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Fri, February 1, 2013 3:21:45 PM
                              Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                               
                              Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer.  They are worthless in a pot still.  Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel.  I don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.



                              From: RLB <last2blast@...>
                              To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 5:13 PM
                              Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                               
                              One of the biggest questions I have about temps is the difference between stripping temps and finish temps?  My wash starts at around 7 to 10% abv.  I toss from 150 to 184, and collect 185 to 205.  Water is greatly reduce in stripping, so what kind of temp cuts can I expect in my first and/or second finish runs.  One would think the boil temps would be much closer to their boiling points after a stripping run in a pot still.

                              Robert



                              From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                              To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 6:14 PM
                              Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                               
                              To answer this quaestion meaningfully, I need to find out if we are talking about potstills or reflux stills. In a typical (and ideal) potstill, the head temperature is very close to the boiling point of the wash, and if the wash isn't boiling yet, the head temperature has no meaning other than you are not distilling yet.

                              In a reflux still the head thermometer is measuring the temperature of the mostly-separated vapor at the top of the column, after it has been condensed and re-vaporized a number of times. This temperature will always be lower than the temperature of the boiling wash way down in the boiler.

                              No matter which kind of still you are operating, you only need to pitch the foreshots on the first distillation. Foreshots are the really bad-tasting and -smelling part that contains most of the acetone, acetaldehyde. methanol, and ethyl acetate. After the foreshots come the heads, which you can drink (and do, when you buy cheap whiskey) but it will taste a bit harsh and you'll get more headaches (again, just like cheap whiskey, and for the same reason). It's up to your nose and palate how much you set aside as heads.

                              As far as what comes off before 74C (and I'm guessing you really mean 78C, the boiling point of pure ethanol), in a potstill, absolutely nothing, because while pure ethanol boils at ~78C, the stuff you have in your boiler is a far cry from pure ethanol, boiling in the low 90's probably. That means at 74, or 78, your boiler isn't boiling yet and you're not distilling yet, at least not at a rate that will let you finish a still run in less than a couple of weeks, or maybe months. Ok, on some fruit washes, you'll get 2 or 3 drops of some really vile stuff at lower head temps.

                              It's a very commonly (and dearly) held misconception that if you hold the wash temperature at 78C, you'll get pure ethanol out, and it just doesn't happen that way.

                              On the other hand, if you have a very good reflux still, and operate it well, you can see product coming out at very slightly over 78C, if you are tuning for "pure" (really ~95.6%). If you tune your reflux still to get a lower head temperature, your output will be less "pure" (read "more flavor").

                              Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Paolo Cucinotta wrote:
                              >
                              > wouldnt this be coming off sub 74C degrees so wouldnt it contain methadone?
                              > I have the same question.
                              >
                              > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:34 AM, RonaldP wrote:
                              >
                              > > **
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > If I'm distilling a wash and collecting and discarding the head. If I
                              > > re-distill whats left, do I discard the first 50ml of the head again or
                              > > not. If your running a wash for flavor, dose your distillation temp run a
                              > > little higher than if your just going for higher ABV% ?
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >






                            • cnapier@att.net
                              And this is what makes it art..... ... Awesome hobby......I ve done a sugar shine wash and run. And it humbles you until you get it correct. I ve been reading
                              Message 14 of 20 , Feb 1, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                And this is what makes it art.....

                                :)

                                Awesome hobby......I've done a sugar shine wash and run.

                                And it humbles you until you get it correct.

                                I've been reading for 6 months on all aspects of moonshine.

                                And every time I log on I get educated or confused.

                                Love it.

                                Claude



                                From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                                To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Fri, February 1, 2013 6:55:55 PM
                                Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                                 

                                Robert, I'm not sure where you heard the bit about boiling point of a
                                mixture "freezing" at the boiling point of each volatile liquid in the
                                mixture (I'm assuming until that specific liquids is all boiled off?),
                                but that's not how boiling points work, and operating on that assumption
                                will just drive you crazy.

                                As determined by Roualt's law, the boiling point of a mixture of
                                volatile liquids is determined solely by the mass and molecular weight
                                of each (and all) compound, and the atmospheric pressure, and the
                                composition of the vapor boiled off is also determined by those same
                                factors. As boiling progresses, the composition of the boiling wash
                                changes gradually, so the boiling point also changes gradually.

                                Contrary to some practices, I am an experienced potstiller that does use
                                a head thermometer, although I'd never use it to make cuts on an unknown
                                wash, because different washes benefit from cuts at different
                                temperatures. For the sake of general information, I've graphed a lot of
                                still run head temperatures with time, and once the wash boils, the
                                curve is always as smooth as I expect it to be.

                                The best model to understand how the curve is continuous is to look at a
                                graph of boiling points and percentages for a simple binary mixture of
                                ethanol and water. Yes, it's a first approximation of wash behavior, but
                                it's a pretty darned good first approximation.

                                http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/alcoholvaporCelsius.gif

                                The blue curve represents the percentage of ethanol in the liquid over
                                the range of boiling points, and the red curve represents the percentage
                                of ethanol in the vapor that boiled off at that boiling point.

                                From that curve, if you have a 10% wash, it will boil at ~93C (199F) and
                                as the percent of ethanol in the wash approaches zero, the temperature
                                of the wash will approach 100C (212 F). As long as the mixture is
                                boiling, you have absolutely no control over its temperature; turning up
                                the power only makes vapor faster.

                                Just as a very very general idea, and because I'm on the road and don't
                                have access to my files (but I do have some graphs in my book), for the
                                grocery store wine I distilled in my coffeepot still, foreshots and
                                heads were up to ~91C (196F) and hearts were 91-94C (196-201F).
                                Everything after that was tails, which I still collect and distill again
                                with other junk alcohol.

                                I know a few people who have made oat whiskey. I'm not sure why more
                                don't.

                                Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB wrote:
                                >
                                > I am a newbie to distillation, 6 total stripping runs, and not not one
                                finish run to date. My family were not moonshiners, and with AFT and
                                TTB getting a woody every time they think someone is Moonshining I will
                                pass on trying to become a still hand. This is all a new learning
                                process for me know matter how much I read.
                                >
                                > I use a thermometer to see where my boiling points are in my new pot
                                still. All of my web site reading states that temps will freeze every
                                time it hits a new alcohol boiling point no matter how high you set your
                                heat. For me Ethanol starts to boil from 191 to 193, so I sniff the
                                end of my condenser to define all of the different cuts in a stripping
                                run. For my stripping runs, my fore-shots will curl your toes, heads
                                has an unpleasant strong smell, hearts has a strong smell with a sweet
                                bouquet, and tails smell like a wet dirty sock. What I mean by strong
                                smell: Take a sniff of +50% abv alcohol vapor. Who needs to ever drink
                                when those vapors will make you as drunk without ever having a hangover.
                                Yes, it might be true that most experienced people do not use a
                                thermometer in a pot still, but I find knowing where the different
                                boiling points are as being very helpful in my learning process. So
                                far, all of my experience involves sugar washes,
                                > and my first grain experiment will most likely be with oatmeal. I
                                find it interesting that there is so little mention of oats. Oats have
                                30 to 33 percent sugar, but very little spirits come from oats
                                >
                                > Robert
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                > From: bleu jeanzz
                                > To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com"
                                > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:39 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer. They are
                                worthless in a pot still. Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel. I
                                don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for
                                anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                >

                              • White Bear
                                ZBob-   Thanks for the information, explanation and graph, I m going to have to do a few graphs myself.   Do you or anyone else know where there is an
                                Message 15 of 20 , Feb 2, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  ZBob-
                                    Thanks for the information, explanation and graph, I'm going to have to do a few graphs myself.
                                    Do you or anyone else know where there is an Oatmeal Whiskey recipe, this sounds intriguing.
                                  WB
                                   
                                   

                                  From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                                  To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 5:55 PM
                                  Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                                   
                                  Robert, I'm not sure where you heard the bit about boiling point of a
                                  mixture "freezing" at the boiling point of each volatile liquid in the
                                  mixture (I'm assuming until that specific liquids is all boiled off?),
                                  but that's not how boiling points work, and operating on that assumption
                                  will just drive you crazy.

                                  As determined by Roualt's law, the boiling point of a mixture of
                                  volatile liquids is determined solely by the mass and molecular weight
                                  of each (and all) compound, and the atmospheric pressure, and the
                                  composition of the vapor boiled off is also determined by those same
                                  factors. As boiling progresses, the composition of the boiling wash
                                  changes gradually, so the boiling point also changes gradually.

                                  Contrary to some practices, I am an experienced potstiller that does use
                                  a head thermometer, although I'd never use it to make cuts on an unknown
                                  wash, because different washes benefit from cuts at different
                                  temperatures. For the sake of general information, I've graphed a lot of
                                  still run head temperatures with time, and once the wash boils, the
                                  curve is always as smooth as I expect it to be.

                                  The best model to understand how the curve is continuous is to look at a
                                  graph of boiling points and percentages for a simple binary mixture of
                                  ethanol and water. Yes, it's a first approximation of wash behavior, but
                                  it's a pretty darned good first approximation.

                                  http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/alcoholvaporCelsius.gif

                                  The blue curve represents the percentage of ethanol in the liquid over
                                  the range of boiling points, and the red curve represents the percentage
                                  of ethanol in the vapor that boiled off at that boiling point.

                                  From that curve, if you have a 10% wash, it will boil at ~93C (199F) and
                                  as the percent of ethanol in the wash approaches zero, the temperature
                                  of the wash will approach 100C (212 F). As long as the mixture is
                                  boiling, you have absolutely no control over its temperature; turning up
                                  the power only makes vapor faster.

                                  Just as a very very general idea, and because I'm on the road and don't
                                  have access to my files (but I do have some graphs in my book), for the
                                  grocery store wine I distilled in my coffeepot still, foreshots and
                                  heads were up to ~91C (196F) and hearts were 91-94C (196-201F).
                                  Everything after that was tails, which I still collect and distill again
                                  with other junk alcohol.

                                  I know a few people who have made oat whiskey. I'm not sure why more
                                  don't.

                                  Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                                  --- In mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com, RLB wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I am a newbie to distillation, 6 total stripping runs, and not not one
                                  finish run to date. My family were not moonshiners, and with AFT and
                                  TTB getting a woody every time they think someone is Moonshining I will
                                  pass on trying to become a still hand. This is all a new learning
                                  process for me know matter how much I read.
                                  >
                                  > I use a thermometer to see where my boiling points are in my new pot
                                  still. All of my web site reading states that temps will freeze every
                                  time it hits a new alcohol boiling point no matter how high you set your
                                  heat. For me Ethanol starts to boil from 191 to 193, so I sniff the
                                  end of my condenser to define all of the different cuts in a stripping
                                  run. For my stripping runs, my fore-shots will curl your toes, heads
                                  has an unpleasant strong smell, hearts has a strong smell with a sweet
                                  bouquet, and tails smell like a wet dirty sock. What I mean by strong
                                  smell: Take a sniff of +50% abv alcohol vapor. Who needs to ever drink
                                  when those vapors will make you as drunk without ever having a hangover.
                                  Yes, it might be true that most experienced people do not use a
                                  thermometer in a pot still, but I find knowing where the different
                                  boiling points are as being very helpful in my learning process. So
                                  far, all of my experience involves sugar washes,
                                  > and my first grain experiment will most likely be with oatmeal. I
                                  find it interesting that there is so little mention of oats. Oats have
                                  30 to 33 percent sugar, but very little spirits come from oats
                                  >
                                  > Robert
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ________________________________
                                  > From: bleu jeanzz
                                  > To: "mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com"
                                  > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:39 PM
                                  > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer. They are
                                  worthless in a pot still. Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel. I
                                  don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for
                                  anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ________________________________
                                  >

                                • RLB
                                  White Bear: So far, I have read about 3 oat beers and one oat liquor, and that is made in the UK if  remembered correctly.  Oats might be what I am looking
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Feb 2, 2013
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    White Bear:

                                    So far, I have read about 3 oat beers and one oat liquor, and that is made in the UK if  remembered correctly.  Oats might be what I am looking for as a way to stand out when my goal is reached of one day opening a micro-distillery.  In my area corn and oats are a major agriculture commodities that are grown to sell rather than use, so my ingredients would come directly from the farm.  Just wish they grew wheat, barley, and rye in this area.  Will have to look into buckwheat too.

                                    Robert    






                                    From: White Bear <sha_man_1@...>
                                    To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2013 5:38 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                                     
                                    ZBob-
                                      Thanks for the information, explanation and graph, I'm going to have to do a few graphs myself.
                                      Do you or anyone else know where there is an Oatmeal Whiskey recipe, this sounds intriguing.
                                    WB
                                     
                                     

                                    From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                                    To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 5:55 PM
                                    Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                                     
                                    Robert, I'm not sure where you heard the bit about boiling point of a
                                    mixture "freezing" at the boiling point of each volatile liquid in the
                                    mixture (I'm assuming until that specific liquids is all boiled off?),
                                    but that's not how boiling points work, and operating on that assumption
                                    will just drive you crazy.

                                    As determined by Roualt's law, the boiling point of a mixture of
                                    volatile liquids is determined solely by the mass and molecular weight
                                    of each (and all) compound, and the atmospheric pressure, and the
                                    composition of the vapor boiled off is also determined by those same
                                    factors. As boiling progresses, the composition of the boiling wash
                                    changes gradually, so the boiling point also changes gradually.

                                    Contrary to some practices, I am an experienced potstiller that does use
                                    a head thermometer, although I'd never use it to make cuts on an unknown
                                    wash, because different washes benefit from cuts at different
                                    temperatures. For the sake of general information, I've graphed a lot of
                                    still run head temperatures with time, and once the wash boils, the
                                    curve is always as smooth as I expect it to be.

                                    The best model to understand how the curve is continuous is to look at a
                                    graph of boiling points and percentages for a simple binary mixture of
                                    ethanol and water. Yes, it's a first approximation of wash behavior, but
                                    it's a pretty darned good first approximation.

                                    http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/alcoholvaporCelsius.gif

                                    The blue curve represents the percentage of ethanol in the liquid over
                                    the range of boiling points, and the red curve represents the percentage
                                    of ethanol in the vapor that boiled off at that boiling point.

                                    From that curve, if you have a 10% wash, it will boil at ~93C (199F) and
                                    as the percent of ethanol in the wash approaches zero, the temperature
                                    of the wash will approach 100C (212 F). As long as the mixture is
                                    boiling, you have absolutely no control over its temperature; turning up
                                    the power only makes vapor faster.

                                    Just as a very very general idea, and because I'm on the road and don't
                                    have access to my files (but I do have some graphs in my book), for the
                                    grocery store wine I distilled in my coffeepot still, foreshots and
                                    heads were up to ~91C (196F) and hearts were 91-94C (196-201F).
                                    Everything after that was tails, which I still collect and distill again
                                    with other junk alcohol.

                                    I know a few people who have made oat whiskey. I'm not sure why more
                                    don't.

                                    Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                                    --- In mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com, RLB wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I am a newbie to distillation, 6 total stripping runs, and not not one
                                    finish run to date. My family were not moonshiners, and with AFT and
                                    TTB getting a woody every time they think someone is Moonshining I will
                                    pass on trying to become a still hand. This is all a new learning
                                    process for me know matter how much I read.
                                    >
                                    > I use a thermometer to see where my boiling points are in my new pot
                                    still. All of my web site reading states that temps will freeze every
                                    time it hits a new alcohol boiling point no matter how high you set your
                                    heat. For me Ethanol starts to boil from 191 to 193, so I sniff the
                                    end of my condenser to define all of the different cuts in a stripping
                                    run. For my stripping runs, my fore-shots will curl your toes, heads
                                    has an unpleasant strong smell, hearts has a strong smell with a sweet
                                    bouquet, and tails smell like a wet dirty sock. What I mean by strong
                                    smell: Take a sniff of +50% abv alcohol vapor. Who needs to ever drink
                                    when those vapors will make you as drunk without ever having a hangover.
                                    Yes, it might be true that most experienced people do not use a
                                    thermometer in a pot still, but I find knowing where the different
                                    boiling points are as being very helpful in my learning process. So
                                    far, all of my experience involves sugar washes,
                                    > and my first grain experiment will most likely be with oatmeal. I
                                    find it interesting that there is so little mention of oats. Oats have
                                    30 to 33 percent sugar, but very little spirits come from oats
                                    >
                                    > Robert
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ________________________________
                                    > From: bleu jeanzz
                                    > To: "mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com"
                                    > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:39 PM
                                    > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer. They are
                                    worthless in a pot still. Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel. I
                                    don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for
                                    anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ________________________________
                                    >



                                  • cnapier@att.net
                                    Figured a thermometer would be too easy.....:) Got a 2 gallon pot still.......stove top setup. Just going to start the heat low.........watch the pot........
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Feb 2, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Figured a thermometer would be too easy.....:)

                                      Got a 2 gallon pot still.......stove top setup.

                                      Just going to start the heat low.........watch the pot........

                                      Turn the heat up until I get the 2 drops per second.

                                      The follow the procedures below.

                                      This will be my second sugar shine run.

                                      And I'm learning quick,,,,,

                                      Many thanks,
                                      Claude




                                      From: bleu jeanzz <Bleujeanzz@...>
                                      To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Sat, February 2, 2013 5:05:42 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                                       

                                      I do it the way most pot stillers do, slowly heat wash, when it starts to drip run it at one to 2 drops per second, till you take the fores, then bump the heat to 4 drops per second, or a broken stream, about the same think IMO.  Then when heads are done crank it up to barely a steady stream and keep it there thru hearts.  Then crank it to the max of your condensor to harvest the tails for future use, or forget em and drain tank when cooled.

                                      Trying to run a pot with a thermometer is nonsense, if someone wants to believe it helps em, fine, but its still nonsense.

                                      bleu


                                      From: "cnapier@..." <cnapier@...>
                                      To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 2:04 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                                       
                                      Excellent info......

                                      So no thermometer?

                                      Where do you set the initial temp setting at then?

                                      Thanks,
                                      Claude




                                      From: bleu jeanzz <Bleujeanzz@...>
                                      To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Fri, February 1, 2013 3:21:45 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                                       
                                      Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer.  They are worthless in a pot still.  Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel.  I don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.



                                      From: RLB <last2blast@...>
                                      To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 5:13 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                                       
                                      One of the biggest questions I have about temps is the difference between stripping temps and finish temps?  My wash starts at around 7 to 10% abv.  I toss from 150 to 184, and collect 185 to 205.  Water is greatly reduce in stripping, so what kind of temp cuts can I expect in my first and/or second finish runs.  One would think the boil temps would be much closer to their boiling points after a stripping run in a pot still.

                                      Robert



                                      From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                                      To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 6:14 PM
                                      Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??

                                       
                                      To answer this quaestion meaningfully, I need to find out if we are talking about potstills or reflux stills. In a typical (and ideal) potstill, the head temperature is very close to the boiling point of the wash, and if the wash isn't boiling yet, the head temperature has no meaning other than you are not distilling yet.

                                      In a reflux still the head thermometer is measuring the temperature of the mostly-separated vapor at the top of the column, after it has been condensed and re-vaporized a number of times. This temperature will always be lower than the temperature of the boiling wash way down in the boiler.

                                      No matter which kind of still you are operating, you only need to pitch the foreshots on the first distillation. Foreshots are the really bad-tasting and -smelling part that contains most of the acetone, acetaldehyde. methanol, and ethyl acetate. After the foreshots come the heads, which you can drink (and do, when you buy cheap whiskey) but it will taste a bit harsh and you'll get more headaches (again, just like cheap whiskey, and for the same reason). It's up to your nose and palate how much you set aside as heads.

                                      As far as what comes off before 74C (and I'm guessing you really mean 78C, the boiling point of pure ethanol), in a potstill, absolutely nothing, because while pure ethanol boils at ~78C, the stuff you have in your boiler is a far cry from pure ethanol, boiling in the low 90's probably. That means at 74, or 78, your boiler isn't boiling yet and you're not distilling yet, at least not at a rate that will let you finish a still run in less than a couple of weeks, or maybe months. Ok, on some fruit washes, you'll get 2 or 3 drops of some really vile stuff at lower head temps.

                                      It's a very commonly (and dearly) held misconception that if you hold the wash temperature at 78C, you'll get pure ethanol out, and it just doesn't happen that way.

                                      On the other hand, if you have a very good reflux still, and operate it well, you can see product coming out at very slightly over 78C, if you are tuning for "pure" (really ~95.6%). If you tune your reflux still to get a lower head temperature, your output will be less "pure" (read "more flavor").

                                      Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Paolo Cucinotta wrote:
                                      >
                                      > wouldnt this be coming off sub 74C degrees so wouldnt it contain methadone?
                                      > I have the same question.
                                      >
                                      > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 9:34 AM, RonaldP wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > **
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > If I'm distilling a wash and collecting and discarding the head. If I
                                      > > re-distill whats left, do I discard the first 50ml of the head again or
                                      > > not. If your running a wash for flavor, dose your distillation temp run a
                                      > > little higher than if your just going for higher ABV% ?
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >






                                    • tgfoitwoods
                                      Robert, Go here http://www.artisan-distiller.net/phpBB3/search.php and search for keyword oat . You ll find quite a bit. Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller ...
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Feb 2, 2013
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Robert,

                                        Go here http://www.artisan-distiller.net/phpBB3/search.php
                                        and search for keyword "oat". You'll find quite a bit.

                                        Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB wrote:
                                        >
                                        > White Bear:
                                        >
                                        > So far, I have read about 3 oat beers and one oat liquor, and that is
                                        made in the UK if remembered correctly. Oats might be what I
                                        am looking for as a way to stand out when my goal is reached of one day
                                        opening a micro-distillery. In my area corn and oats are a major
                                        agriculture commodities that are grown to sell rather than use, so my
                                        ingredients would come directly from the farm. Just wish they grew
                                        wheat, barley, and rye in this area. Will have to look into
                                        buckwheat too.
                                        >
                                        > Robert  Â
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ________________________________
                                        > From: White Bear
                                        > To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com"
                                        > Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2013 5:38 AM
                                        > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Â
                                        > ZBob-
                                        > Â Thanks for the information, explanation and graph, I'm going to
                                        have to do a few graphs myself.
                                        > Â Do you or anyone else know where there is an Oatmeal Whiskey
                                        recipe, this sounds intriguing.
                                        > WB
                                        > Â
                                        > Â
                                        >
                                        > From: tgfoitwoods
                                        > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 5:55 PM
                                        > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                                        >
                                        > Â
                                        > Robert, I'm not sure where you heard the bit about boiling point of a
                                        > mixture "freezing" at the boiling point of each volatile liquid in the
                                        > mixture (I'm assuming until that specific liquids is all boiled off?),
                                        > but that's not how boiling points work, and operating on that
                                        assumption
                                        > will just drive you crazy.
                                        >
                                        > As determined by Roualt's law, the boiling point of a mixture of
                                        > volatile liquids is determined solely by the mass and molecular weight
                                        > of each (and all) compound, and the atmospheric pressure, and the
                                        > composition of the vapor boiled off is also determined by those same
                                        > factors. As boiling progresses, the composition of the boiling wash
                                        > changes gradually, so the boiling point also changes gradually.
                                        >
                                        > Contrary to some practices, I am an experienced potstiller that does
                                        use
                                        > a head thermometer, although I'd never use it to make cuts on an
                                        unknown
                                        > wash, because different washes benefit from cuts at different
                                        > temperatures. For the sake of general information, I've graphed a lot
                                        of
                                        > still run head temperatures with time, and once the wash boils, the
                                        > curve is always as smooth as I expect it to be.
                                        >
                                        > The best model to understand how the curve is continuous is to look at
                                        a
                                        > graph of boiling points and percentages for a simple binary mixture
                                        of
                                        > ethanol and water. Yes, it's a first approximation of wash behavior,
                                        but
                                        > it's a pretty darned good first approximation.
                                        >
                                        > http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/alcoholvaporCelsius.gif
                                        >
                                        > The blue curve represents the percentage of ethanol in the liquid over
                                        > the range of boiling points, and the red curve represents the
                                        percentage
                                        > of ethanol in the vapor that boiled off at that boiling point.
                                        >
                                        > From that curve, if you have a 10% wash, it will boil at ~93C (199F)
                                        and
                                        > as the percent of ethanol in the wash approaches zero, the temperature
                                        > of the wash will approach 100C (212 F). As long as the mixture is
                                        > boiling, you have absolutely no control over its temperature; turning
                                        up
                                        > the power only makes vapor faster.
                                        >
                                        > Just as a very very general idea, and because I'm on the road and
                                        don't
                                        > have access to my files (but I do have some graphs in my book), for
                                        the
                                        > grocery store wine I distilled in my coffeepot still, foreshots and
                                        > heads were up to ~91C (196F) and hearts were 91-94C (196-201F).
                                        > Everything after that was tails, which I still collect and distill
                                        again
                                        > with other junk alcohol.
                                        >
                                        > I know a few people who have made oat whiskey. I'm not sure why more
                                        > don't.
                                        >
                                        > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                                        >
                                        > --- In mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com, RLB wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > I am a newbie to distillation, 6 total stripping runs, and not not
                                        one
                                        > finish run to date. My family were not moonshiners, and with AFT and
                                        > TTB getting a woody every time they think someone is Moonshining I
                                        will
                                        > pass on trying to become a still hand. This is all a new learning
                                        > process for me know matter how much I read.
                                        > >
                                        > > I use a thermometer to see where my boiling points are in my new pot
                                        > still. All of my web site reading states that temps will freeze every
                                        > time it hits a new alcohol boiling point no matter how high you set
                                        your
                                        > heat. For me Ethanol starts to boil from 191 to 193, so I sniff the
                                        > end of my condenser to define all of the different cuts in a stripping
                                        > run. For my stripping runs, my fore-shots will curl your toes, heads
                                        > has an unpleasant strong smell, hearts has a strong smell with a sweet
                                        > bouquet, and tails smell like a wet dirty sock. What I mean by strong
                                        > smell: Take a sniff of +50% abv alcohol vapor. Who needs to ever
                                        drink
                                        > when those vapors will make you as drunk without ever having a
                                        hangover.
                                        > Yes, it might be true that most experienced people do not use a
                                        > thermometer in a pot still, but I find knowing where the different
                                        > boiling points are as being very helpful in my learning process. So
                                        > far, all of my experience involves sugar washes,
                                        > > and my first grain experiment will most likely be with oatmeal. I
                                        > find it interesting that there is so little mention of oats. Oats
                                        have
                                        > 30 to 33 percent sugar, but very little spirits come from oats
                                        > >
                                        > > Robert
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > ________________________________
                                        > > From: bleu jeanzz
                                        > > To: "mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com"
                                        > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:39 PM
                                        > > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer. They are
                                        > worthless in a pot still. Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel. I
                                        > don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for
                                        > anything other than entertainment value on a pot still.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > ________________________________
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • White Bear
                                        Robert-   Good luck in you micro-distillery venture, I hope it works out for you.  I ll have to do some research for oat based liquor thanks. WB
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Feb 2, 2013
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Robert-
                                            Good luck in you micro-distillery venture, I hope it works out for you.  I'll have to do some research for oat based liquor thanks.
                                          WB
                                           
                                           

                                          From: RLB <last2blast@...>
                                          To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2013 9:06 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                                           
                                          White Bear: So far, I have read about 3 oat beers and one oat liquor, and that is made in the UK if  remembered correctly.  Oats might be what I am looking for as a way to stand out when my goal is reached of one day opening a micro-distillery.  In my area corn and oats are a major agriculture commodities that are grown to sell rather than use, so my ingredients would come directly from the farm.  Just wish they grew wheat, barley, and rye in this area.  Will have to look into buckwheat too. Robert    


                                          From: White Bear <sha_man_1@...>
                                          To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2013 5:38 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                                           
                                          ZBob-
                                            Thanks for the information, explanation and graph, I'm going to have to do a few graphs myself.
                                            Do you or anyone else know where there is an Oatmeal Whiskey recipe, this sounds intriguing.
                                          WB
                                           
                                           

                                          From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                                          To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 5:55 PM
                                          Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ??
                                           
                                          Robert, I'm not sure where you heard the bit about boiling point of a mixture "freezing" at the boiling point of each volatile liquid in the mixture (I'm assuming until that specific liquids is all boiled off?), but that's not how boiling points work, and operating on that assumption will just drive you crazy. As determined by Roualt's law, the boiling point of a mixture of volatile liquids is determined solely by the mass and molecular weight of each (and all) compound, and the atmospheric pressure, and the composition of the vapor boiled off is also determined by those same factors. As boiling progresses, the composition of the boiling wash changes gradually, so the boiling point also changes gradually. Contrary to some practices, I am an experienced potstiller that does use a head thermometer, although I'd never use it to make cuts on an unknown wash, because different washes benefit from cuts at different temperatures. For the sake of general information, I've graphed a lot of still run head temperatures with time, and once the wash boils, the curve is always as smooth as I expect it to be. The best model to understand how the curve is continuous is to look at a graph of boiling points and percentages for a simple binary mixture of ethanol and water. Yes, it's a first approximation of wash behavior, but it's a pretty darned good first approximation. http://www.kelleybarts.com/PhotoXfer/alcoholvaporCelsius.gif The blue curve represents the percentage of ethanol in the liquid over the range of boiling points, and the red curve represents the percentage of ethanol in the vapor that boiled off at that boiling point. From that curve, if you have a 10% wash, it will boil at ~93C (199F) and as the percent of ethanol in the wash approaches zero, the temperature of the wash will approach 100C (212 F). As long as the mixture is boiling, you have absolutely no control over its temperature; turning up the power only makes vapor faster. Just as a very very general idea, and because I'm on the road and don't have access to my files (but I do have some graphs in my book), for the grocery store wine I distilled in my coffeepot still, foreshots and heads were up to ~91C (196F) and hearts were 91-94C (196-201F). Everything after that was tails, which I still collect and distill again with other junk alcohol. I know a few people who have made oat whiskey. I'm not sure why more don't. Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                                          --- In mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com, RLB wrote: > > I am a newbie to distillation, 6 total stripping runs, and not not one finish run to date. My family were not moonshiners, and with AFT and TTB getting a woody every time they think someone is Moonshining I will pass on trying to become a still hand. This is all a new learning process for me know matter how much I read. > > I use a thermometer to see where my boiling points are in my new pot still. All of my web site reading states that temps will freeze every time it hits a new alcohol boiling point no matter how high you set your heat. For me Ethanol starts to boil from 191 to 193, so I sniff the end of my condenser to define all of the different cuts in a stripping run. For my stripping runs, my fore-shots will curl your toes, heads has an unpleasant strong smell, hearts has a strong smell with a sweet bouquet, and tails smell like a wet dirty sock. What I mean by strong smell: Take a sniff of +50% abv alcohol vapor. Who needs to ever drink when those vapors will make you as drunk without ever having a hangover. Yes, it might be true that most experienced people do not use a thermometer in a pot still, but I find knowing where the different boiling points are as being very helpful in my learning process. So far, all of my experience involves sugar washes, > and my first grain experiment will most likely be with oatmeal. I find it interesting that there is so little mention of oats. Oats have 30 to 33 percent sugar, but very little spirits come from oats > > Robert > > > > > ________________________________ > From: bleu jeanzz > To: "mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com" > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 11:39 PM > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Re-distillation ?? > > > > Robert, you run a pot still with out a thermometer. They are worthless in a pot still. Make your cuts by smell, taste and feel. I don't know anyone who makes good stuff who uses a thermometer for anything other than entertainment value on a pot still. > > > > ________________________________ >
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