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RE: [new_distillers] google tracking and visiting distilling sites...Re: Help with decision

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  • Robert Hubble
    Wow Blackhat-Whitedog! I don t understand what has apparently happened to you. While I do not buy from Stilldragon, because I make my own stills, I hear of and
    Message 1 of 6 , Dec 7, 2012
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      Wow Blackhat-Whitedog!

      I don't understand what has apparently happened to you. While I do not buy from Stilldragon, because I make my own stills, I hear of and see photos of all the Still Dragon parts that people in North America, Australia, and New Zealand buy, assemble, test, and use, all in the public forums. For years I've shared the forums with the designers, builder, and users of Still Dragon parts, and everyone seems quite happy. I've never heard of anyone thinking it was, what, a data mining operation?

      To research what you say, I just went up on the Still Dragon site to look at the sort of still a beginner might want to buy from them, and I got into the site easily, with no info shown, or obvious scripts run. I'm using Firefox 16.0.2 running in Windows 7. This is a page I had thought you might be interested in. http://www.stilldragon.com/pot-still1.html

      Are you able to open that with no hassles? It's the kind of information I though you might want.

      If it's quite alright with you, I'd like to pass your email and this reply to the owner of Still Dragon. If there really is something blocking or inhibiting customer access, he'll want to know about it.

      I'll admit to being a bit put off by the inference that I am somehow conspiring to compromise your privacy. If you wish, I can make a point of never answering your posts from now on, but as a moderator of this list, it's hard to ignore you completely.

      Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller


      Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 00:39:29 -0800
      From: blkhatwhtdog@...
      Subject: Re: [new_distillers] google tracking and visiting distilling sites...Re: Help with decision
      To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
      CC: zymurgybob@...

      zymurgybob is one of those names that comes up now and then on forums, on a local still maker/promoter, taught a class or a dozen in my area, a recommendation is something to consider.  so I go to the still dragon site...

      nowI suppose its way past practical to prevent most tracking and data compiling, I mean we live in an era where Target can find out and send marketing material to pregnant women BEFORE the family finds out, and in a couple cases, before the woman herself figured it out.

      BUT, in a hobby situation that is currently more illegal than smoking grass, it makes NO sense for a site desiring to market equipment to participate in the hobby while refusing to show any info UNLESS you agree to allow the downloading of a half dozen scripts including google.

      as one who is seriously in the market for a decent device, Looking at the hillbilly flute, milehi, local rainier distillers, i am totally blocked out, all I can see is the opening splash image of the 3 stainless steel columns, but not a single thing else will load without accepting 4 scripts. 

      could be worse, there was one site that had facebook and twitter scripts involved that I backed out without a 2nd thought.

      --- On Thu, 12/6/12, tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...> wrote:

      From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
      Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Help with decision
      To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Thursday, December 6, 2012, 4:58 PM



      Claude,

      My first question would be, "What kinds of spirits do you want to make?". Although there are some in-between compromises you can make, generally speaking people who wish to make vodka use reflux stills to get as pure as possible ethanol-water azeotrope, a mixture of ~96% ethanol and 4% water. People who wish to make whiskey, brandy, and rum generally use potstills to get the flavor (read impurities) they want. If you don't want a pure reflux or a pure potstill, you'll need to define how you want to work that in-between distilling.

      Because they are a supplier of both kinds of stills, you owe yourself a look at Still Dragon's incredible modular equipment. Still Dragon is a company in China owned by a Texan who has become a friend of mine (full disclosure), with designs by Canadian and US engineers who are also distillers, and testing by the hobby-distilling community. This modularity is one way around buyin one kind of still setup and then changing your mind later; you can re-use the parts to build something different.

      Warning, the first equipment you'll see on the site is their high-end stuff, and probably pricey.

      To hear its users, Still Dragon quality seems to be incredible. The stuff certainly is beautiful.
      http://www.stilldragon.com/   and the American distributor is here: smaug@...

      If you'd like, I can pass all this posting from you and me to smaug. He's a fellow distiller on another forum.

      Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Claude" <cnapier@...> wrote:
      >
      > Greets.....I love reading the posts in this post....awesome.
      >
      > I have a question. I have Multiple Sclerosis....I wanted to build my own still and rig. This isn't possible given my condition.
      >
      > My kids want to buy me a rig for Christmas.
      >
      > If you had/were to buy a complete rig.
      >
      > What would you buy?
      > And from where?
      >
      > Many thanks.
      >
      > Claude Napier
      >


    • Some Hoser
      Bob/Blackhat-Whitebog, The scripts used on that site are pretty innocuous. Unfortunately, there are a handful of scripts necessary for functionality/display (
      Message 2 of 6 , Dec 7, 2012
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        Bob/Blackhat-Whitebog,

        The scripts used on that site are pretty innocuous. Unfortunately,
        there are a handful of scripts necessary for functionality/display (
        https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/libs/jquery/1.7.2/jquery.min.js,
        http://cdn1.editmysite.com/editor/libraries/jquery_effects.js,
        http://cdn1.editmysite.com/editor/libraries/fancybox/fancybox.min.js,
        http://cdn1.editmysite.com/editor/images/common/utilities-jq.js,
        http://cdn1.editmysite.com/editor/libraries/flyout_menus_jq.js). These
        are pretty widely-used libraries and do nothing nefarious (unless,
        like me, you think the site's design is nefarious!).

        The two tracking libraries are from Google Analytics and Quantcast,
        both very widely-used across the web. Neither stores nor provides
        personally-identifiable information to publishers who use these
        libraries, though Quantcast I believe uses your browsing history to
        target ads. Both have opt-out capabilities as well:

        Google: http://support.google.com/analytics/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=181881&topic=1008008
        Quantcast: https://www.quantcast.com/how-we-do-it/consumer-choice/opt-out/

        There are some great looking products at the StillDragon site.
        Hopefully he invests some money in the design and useability to get
        that content up front and accessible where it belongs, without the
        need for some of the above scripts. I don't begrudge him the anonymous
        tracking stuff. It's important for publishers and people selling
        things to know where customers are coming from and how effective their
        pages are.

        -Some Hoser

        On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 12:36 PM, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > Wow Blackhat-Whitedog!
        >
        > I don't understand what has apparently happened to you. While I do not buy
        > from Stilldragon, because I make my own stills, I hear of and see photos of
        > all the Still Dragon parts that people in North America, Australia, and New
        > Zealand buy, assemble, test, and use, all in the public forums. For years
        > I've shared the forums with the designers, builder, and users of Still
        > Dragon parts, and everyone seems quite happy. I've never heard of anyone
        > thinking it was, what, a data mining operation?
        >
        > To research what you say, I just went up on the Still Dragon site to look
        > at the sort of still a beginner might want to buy from them, and I got into
        > the site easily, with no info shown, or obvious scripts run. I'm using
        > Firefox 16.0.2 running in Windows 7. This is a page I had thought you might
        > be interested in. http://www.stilldragon.com/pot-still1.html
        >
        > Are you able to open that with no hassles? It's the kind of information I
        > though you might want.
        >
        > If it's quite alright with you, I'd like to pass your email and this reply
        > to the owner of Still Dragon. If there really is something blocking or
        > inhibiting customer access, he'll want to know about it.
        >
        > I'll admit to being a bit put off by the inference that I am somehow
        > conspiring to compromise your privacy. If you wish, I can make a point of
        > never answering your posts from now on, but as a moderator of this list,
        > it's hard to ignore you completely.
        >
        > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
        >
        > ________________________________
        > Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 00:39:29 -0800
        > From: blkhatwhtdog@...
        > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] google tracking and visiting distilling
        > sites...Re: Help with decision
        > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
        > CC: zymurgybob@...
        >
        > zymurgybob is one of those names that comes up now and then on forums, on
        > a local still maker/promoter, taught a class or a dozen in my area, a
        > recommendation is something to consider. so I go to the still dragon
        > site...
        >
        > nowI suppose its way past practical to prevent most tracking and data
        > compiling, I mean we live in an era where Target can find out and send
        > marketing material to pregnant women BEFORE the family finds out, and in a
        > couple cases, before the woman herself figured it out.
        >
        > BUT, in a hobby situation that is currently more illegal than smoking
        > grass, it makes NO sense for a site desiring to market equipment to
        > participate in the hobby while refusing to show any info UNLESS you agree to
        > allow the downloading of a half dozen scripts including google.
        >
        > as one who is seriously in the market for a decent device, Looking at the
        > hillbilly flute, milehi, local rainier distillers, i am totally blocked out,
        > all I can see is the opening splash image of the 3 stainless steel columns,
        > but not a single thing else will load without accepting 4 scripts.
        >
        > could be worse, there was one site that had facebook and twitter scripts
        > involved that I backed out without a 2nd thought.
      • Alex Netherton
        Some people are super paranoid, and have their browser set to warn at the least sign of a script, cookie, whatever. In the US it is indeed illegal to distill
        Message 3 of 6 , Dec 7, 2012
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          Some people are super paranoid, and have their browser set to warn at the least sign of a script, cookie, whatever. In the US it is indeed illegal to distill alcohol, mainly for tax purposes; it is not more illegal then weed, at least on the federal level. Hobby distillers are not the ones the lawman are after. Illegal stills mean that the demand for taxed liquor is less, thus the US takes in less alcohol tax, thus they prosecute for tax evasion. With weed (marijuana is so hard to spell...*sigh*), it is simply a controlled substance in the US (just like Heroine, both of which are a LOT more illegal than shine, I assure you!), and though decriminalized in many states, and somewhat legal in some (see Colorado), it is still illegal in the US, so the feds can come after you for it, and federal law is harsh. Not so with alcohol.

          As a distiller, and a hobby distiller, if you don't sell it, there is little likelihood that the BATFE or the IRS is going to bother you. I mean, why? For such a piddling amount that a home distiller is going to make, most prosecutors and even judges would laugh the case out of court.

          Now if you start a 150 gallon blackpot or an onion style thumper out in the wilds of Wilkes County (NC) or Fairfax County (VA), or even Cocke County (TN), and make a run every night, you will attract attention (especially with a thumper...they are LOUD!). This is thousands to millions of tax money lost to the US.  For a small piddler like yourself, not selling to anyone, making a few gallons per year, what are you worried about? I really don't see how you web surf, with every kind of tracking warning going off when you access a web page. I say, get over yourself. The Man ain't interested in you.

          An old Hillbilly

          On 12/7/2012 8:05 PM, Some Hoser wrote:
           

          Bob/Blackhat-Whitebog,

          The scripts used on that site are pretty innocuous. Unfortunately,
          there are a handful of scripts necessary for functionality/display (
          https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/libs/jquery/1.7.2/jquery.min.js,
          http://cdn1.editmysite.com/editor/libraries/jquery_effects.js,
          http://cdn1.editmysite.com/editor/libraries/fancybox/fancybox.min.js,
          http://cdn1.editmysite.com/editor/images/common/utilities-jq.js,
          http://cdn1.editmysite.com/editor/libraries/flyout_menus_jq.js). These
          are pretty widely-used libraries and do nothing nefarious (unless,
          like me, you think the site's design is nefarious!).

          The two tracking libraries are from Google Analytics and Quantcast,
          both very widely-used across the web. Neither stores nor provides
          personally-identifiable information to publishers who use these
          libraries, though Quantcast I believe uses your browsing history to
          target ads. Both have opt-out capabilities as well:

          Google: http://support.google.com/analytics/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=181881&topic=1008008
          Quantcast: https://www.quantcast.com/how-we-do-it/consumer-choice/opt-out/

          There are some great looking products at the StillDragon site.
          Hopefully he invests some money in the design and useability to get
          that content up front and accessible where it belongs, without the
          need for some of the above scripts. I don't begrudge him the anonymous
          tracking stuff. It's important for publishers and people selling
          things to know where customers are coming from and how effective their
          pages are.

          -Some Hoser

          On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 12:36 PM, Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > Wow Blackhat-Whitedog!
          >
          > I don't understand what has apparently happened to you. While I do not buy
          > from Stilldragon, because I make my own stills, I hear of and see photos of
          > all the Still Dragon parts that people in North America, Australia, and New
          > Zealand buy, assemble, test, and use, all in the public forums. For years
          > I've shared the forums with the designers, builder, and users of Still
          > Dragon parts, and everyone seems quite happy. I've never heard of anyone
          > thinking it was, what, a data mining operation?
          >
          > To research what you say, I just went up on the Still Dragon site to look
          > at the sort of still a beginner might want to buy from them, and I got into
          > the site easily, with no info shown, or obvious scripts run. I'm using
          > Firefox 16.0.2 running in Windows 7. This is a page I had thought you might
          > be interested in. http://www.stilldragon.com/pot-still1.html
          >
          > Are you able to open that with no hassles? It's the kind of information I
          > though you might want.
          >
          > If it's quite alright with you, I'd like to pass your email and this reply
          > to the owner of Still Dragon. If there really is something blocking or
          > inhibiting customer access, he'll want to know about it.
          >
          > I'll admit to being a bit put off by the inference that I am somehow
          > conspiring to compromise your privacy. If you wish, I can make a point of
          > never answering your posts from now on, but as a moderator of this list,
          > it's hard to ignore you completely.
          >
          > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
          >
          > ________________________________
          > Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 00:39:29 -0800
          > From: blkhatwhtdog@...
          > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] google tracking and visiting distilling
          > sites...Re: Help with decision
          > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
          > CC: zymurgybob@...
          >
          > zymurgybob is one of those names that comes up now and then on forums, on
          > a local still maker/promoter, taught a class or a dozen in my area, a
          > recommendation is something to consider. so I go to the still dragon
          > site...
          >
          > nowI suppose its way past practical to prevent most tracking and data
          > compiling, I mean we live in an era where Target can find out and send
          > marketing material to pregnant women BEFORE the family finds out, and in a
          > couple cases, before the woman herself figured it out.
          >
          > BUT, in a hobby situation that is currently more illegal than smoking
          > grass, it makes NO sense for a site desiring to market equipment to
          > participate in the hobby while refusing to show any info UNLESS you agree to
          > allow the downloading of a half dozen scripts including google.
          >
          > as one who is seriously in the market for a decent device, Looking at the
          > hillbilly flute, milehi, local rainier distillers, i am totally blocked out,
          > all I can see is the opening splash image of the 3 stainless steel columns,
          > but not a single thing else will load without accepting 4 scripts.
          >
          > could be worse, there was one site that had facebook and twitter scripts
          > involved that I backed out without a 2nd thought.


        • tonyjones60@comcast.net
          I have purchased from Still Dragon on several occasions. Their products are of high quality and I have been more than satisfied with every purchase. Another
          Message 4 of 6 , Dec 8, 2012
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            I have purchased from Still Dragon on several occasions. Their products are of high quality and I have been more than satisfied with every purchase. Another thing that I like is that they don't "stick it to you" for shipping. In fact, Larry has communicated with me before about something I purchased for around $4.00. He pointed out that the flat rate USPS shipping was going to be as much and asked if I needed any gaskets or something else to fill the box.

            Regards
          • Wes Deviers
            Also, it *clearly* says it s for essential oil creation, which as a cooking nerd is a perfectly valid way to operate such a sweet device. Seems like you could
            Message 5 of 6 , Dec 9, 2012
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              Also, it *clearly* says it's for essential oil creation, which as a cooking nerd is a perfectly valid way to operate such a sweet device.  Seems like you could throw some grapeseed oil, lavender, and orange peel residue in there in the "off season" if you were to be concerned.

              As far as tracking cookies, as a systems nerd, I can understand the concern.  Tough to order anything online if you're worried about tracking though, since they can correlate your actual address with your billing information. I would be more concerned about emailing Master Smaug to order, since email is discoverable and a lot more useful in court than cookie correlation (so far).

              Worthwhile discussion regardless just to raise these concepts.  If only more people used PGP : /

              Wes

              On 12/7/12 10:43 PM, Alex Netherton wrote:
               


              As a distiller, and a hobby distiller, if you don't sell it, there is little likelihood that the BATFE or the IRS is going to bother you. I mean, why? For such a piddling amount that a home distiller is going to make, most prosecutors and even judges would laugh the case out of court.

              An old Hillbilly


            • Ian Peden
              The situation in New Zealand is exactly that. Any person(s) can own a Still and produce product for their own consumption. Sell the product for personal
              Message 6 of 6 , Dec 31, 2012
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                The situation in New Zealand is exactly that. Any person(s) can own a Still and produce 'product' for their own consumption. Sell the product for personal gain, get caught, and your up before the 'Stipendiary Stewards' and woe betide. Fortunately (or unfortunately) we don't have the death penalty in NZ.

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