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Aging whisky

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  • James Gates
    Just wonder what you do to age whiskey to improve flavor? I have read the little casks sold through Woodenville Distillery are poor quality, although
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 25, 2012
      Just wonder what you do to age whiskey to improve flavor?
      I have read the little casks sold through Woodenville Distillery are poor quality, although Woodenville WA is about two hours from me.

      So, am trying to source casks and find their are also used casks available, so trying to wrap my head around aging whiskey and wonder what you do, for how long and how much time and where you buy the casks?
      \
      Can you over age it? As a side note, I think it would be great to say age 5 gal of whiskey or more for my wake. Then they bottle and open a bottle after I am gone on a birthday.
    • Rick Wrightson
      James, I attended an Artisan Distilling Workshop last March in which Dr. Kris Bergland from Michigan State University
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 27, 2012
        James,
        I attended an Artisan Distilling Workshop last March in which Dr. Kris Bergland from Michigan State University http://www.chems.msu.edu/people/profile/berglund gave a presentation on barrel aging and the study that was done at MSU. Essentially, small barrel aging does shorten the maturation time but only up until a certain point (if I recall, it was something like 18 months or less was the extreme end of the beneficial aging time) and then all that happens is that the spirit becomes more oaky i.e., the maturation stops but the spirit continues to pickup the oak flavors. And, in any barrel less than 30 gallons, the timeline really shortens. For instance, a 5 gallon barrel might begin to turn the spirit oaky after only a month or two. Also, there was considerably more evaporation (Angel's Share) in small barrels. The workshop was held at the Las Vegas Distillery and they indicated that they were experiencing extremely high evaporation rates in their 15 and 30 gallon barrels (something like 20 or 30% in only a few months but I think that their extremely dry climate has to be factored in). The conclusion of the study (Las Vegas Distillery was not part of the study - that was just a comment by the owner) was that there was no real advantage to small barrel aging.
      • Blackhat-Whitedog
        I m down in tacoma...I see a guy on craigslist offering small aging barrels all the time. I was thinking of getting one as soon as I get going. as long as
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 27, 2012
          I'm down in tacoma...I see a guy on craigslist offering small aging barrels all the time. I was thinking of getting one as soon as I get going. as long as they hold water must be good enough? (and if you fill them with water for a bit the wood would swell enough to stop a leak?) I'll probably toast some jack daniels chips and add a few to a gallon jug.

          --- On Thu, 10/25/12, James Gates <panache_fine_art@...> wrote:

          > From: James Gates <panache_fine_art@...>
          > Subject: [new_distillers] Aging whisky
          > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Thursday, October 25, 2012, 7:58 PM
          > Just wonder what you do to age
          > whiskey to improve flavor?
          > I have read the little casks sold through Woodenville
          > Distillery are poor quality, although Woodenville WA is
          > about two hours from me.
          >
          > So, am trying to source casks and find their are also used
          > casks available, so trying to wrap my head around aging
          > whiskey and wonder what you do, for how long and how much
          > time and where you buy the casks?
          > \
          > Can you over age it? As a side note, I think it would be
          > great to say age 5 gal of whiskey or more for my wake. Then
          > they  bottle and open a bottle after I am gone on a
          > birthday.
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > New Distillers group archives are at http://www.taet.com.au/distillers.nsf/
          > FAQ and other information available at http://homedistiller.org
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >     new_distillers-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
        • Jerry McCullough
          I have been distilling for about 3 yaers. I am retired therfore I have lots of time to experiment. I also woodwork, which means I have lots of wood scraps to
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 28, 2012
            I have been distilling for about 3 yaers. I am retired therfore I have lots of time to experiment. I also woodwork, which means I have lots of wood scraps to experiment with. I have never used a wooden barrel to age spirits. I feel that the barrels are too expensive and the quality of the wood is suspect. I use strips of white oak that I cut from my scraps. I then char them with a propane torch.
             
            I use 3 liter wine bottles to store my spirits,.I cut the wood strips to fit in the opening and hieght of the bottle. I have had in my opinion surperb sucess aging bourbon and rum in this manner.   
             
            I have some rum that is two years old. It so smooth that there is only a the slightest hint of a burn. That batch was aged in white oak. From the same batch rum, I aged 3 liters in charred cherry. That batch still has a substantial burn and the taste is inferior to the rum aged in white oak. I have had the same experiences with the bourbon that I make. However between myself, my family and friends, the bourbon does not last long enough for long aging. I do not know what it would taste after two years aging on the charred oak.
             
            In my opinion you can age spirits in glass containers using charred wood chips just as well as using a barrel and at a whole lot less expense. A another plus is you get to select the wood used to age the spirits, instead of the manufacturer of the barrel. 

            From: James Gates <panache_fine_art@...>
            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 9:58 PM
            Subject: [new_distillers] Aging whisky
             
            Just wonder what you do to age whiskey to improve flavor?
            I have read the little casks sold through Woodenville Distillery are poor quality, although Woodenville WA is about two hours from me.

            So, am trying to source casks and find their are also used casks available, so trying to wrap my head around aging whiskey and wonder what you do, for how long and how much time and where you buy the casks?
            \
            Can you over age it? As a side note, I think it would be great to say age 5 gal of whiskey or more for my wake. Then they bottle and open a bottle after I am gone on a birthday.

          • Derek Hamlet
            ... Certainly one of the most intriguing things about distilling at home as a hobby is that in addition to the product we have the opportunity to experiment.
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 28, 2012
              At 06:28 AM 10/28/2012, you wrote:
              >In my opinion you can age spirits in glass containers using charred
              >wood chips just as well as using a barrel and at a whole lot less
              >expense. A another plus is you get to select the wood used to age
              >the spirits, instead of the manufacturer of the barrel.

              Certainly one of the most intriguing things about distilling at home
              as a hobby is that in addition to the product we have the opportunity
              to experiment. I am and have been a winemaker for 40 + years and a
              distiller for perhaps ten years. Times change, products improve etc.
              However, there are some time tested and even scientific reasons why
              some things are done a certain way. Yes, you can put your product in
              non-breathing containers and add charred woods (usually oak) and
              toasted oak for aging.
              Sure, you can experiment with other woods. You can also make peach
              wine, but there's a reason why winemakers usually spend the extra
              money to get good quality grapes; sez the guy who makes both
              blackberry and dandelion wine in addition to grape wine.
              Why barrels? It's because they breathe. Aging is a complex
              scientific process. The raw materials have to be there, but some of
              the process requires time; that's why a 20 year old single malt costs
              more than an 8 year old single malt all things being equal. A
              container which breathes like an oak barrel contributes to that chemistry.
              I sacrificed aging in barrels when we lost 120 Imperial gallons of
              wine to a bacteria. I was heartbroken. I realized as a little guy
              in hobby side of things I couldn't afford that so I switched to glass
              which I know can sterilize and use charred oak strips and toasted oak
              strips. I've experimented with a slowly rotating turntable to
              increase interaction of product with the oak with modest success, but
              some of those chemical processes just take time.
              Sorry for the bandwidth; my fingers just wouldn't take direction.


              Derek
            • M L
              Look up Home Distillation of Alcohol, great site , lots of info on aging. ... From: Jerry McCullough Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Aging
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 28, 2012
                Look up Home Distillation of Alcohol, great site , lots of info on aging.

                --- On Sun, 10/28/12, Jerry McCullough <jkmccull@...> wrote:

                From: Jerry McCullough <jkmccull@...>
                Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Aging whisky
                To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                Date: Sunday, October 28, 2012, 6:28 AM

                 

                I have been distilling for about 3 yaers. I am retired therfore I have lots of time to experiment. I also woodwork, which means I have lots of wood scraps to experiment with. I have never used a wooden barrel to age spirits. I feel that the barrels are too expensive and the quality of the wood is suspect. I use strips of white oak that I cut from my scraps. I then char them with a propane torch.
                 
                I use 3 liter wine bottles to store my spirits,.I cut the wood strips to fit in the opening and hieght of the bottle. I have had in my opinion surperb sucess aging bourbon and rum in this manner.   
                 
                I have some rum that is two years old. It so smooth that there is only a the slightest hint of a burn. That batch was aged in white oak. From the same batch rum, I aged 3 liters in charred cherry. That batch still has a substantial burn and the taste is inferior to the rum aged in white oak. I have had the same experiences with the bourbon that I make. However between myself, my family and friends, the bourbon does not last long enough for long aging. I do not know what it would taste after two years aging on the charred oak.
                 
                In my opinion you can age spirits in glass containers using charred wood chips just as well as using a barrel and at a whole lot less expense. A another plus is you get to select the wood used to age the spirits, instead of the manufacturer of the barrel. 

                From: James Gates <panache_fine_art@...>
                To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 9:58 PM
                Subject: [new_distillers] Aging whisky
                 
                Just wonder what you do to age whiskey to improve flavor?
                I have read the little casks sold through Woodenville Distillery are poor quality, although Woodenville WA is about two hours from me.

                So, am trying to source casks and find their are also used casks available, so trying to wrap my head around aging whiskey and wonder what you do, for how long and how much time and where you buy the casks?
                \
                Can you over age it? As a side note, I think it would be great to say age 5 gal of whiskey or more for my wake. Then they bottle and open a bottle after I am gone on a birthday.

              • jsducote
                Here s an interesting thought: If spirit needs wood-air interaction to age, and sterile glass jars are an improvement over full-oak barrels, why not combine
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 29, 2012
                  Here's an interesting thought:
                  If spirit needs wood-air interaction to age, and sterile glass jars are an improvement over full-oak barrels, why not combine the two? Mason jars with white oak lids. I came to the idea on my own, but then googled it to find I wasn't the only one who thought of it. There's several discussions on homedistiller.org.

                  -John

                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Derek Hamlet <derekhamlet@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > At 06:28 AM 10/28/2012, you wrote:
                  > >In my opinion you can age spirits in glass containers using charred
                  > >wood chips just as well as using a barrel and at a whole lot less
                  > >expense. A another plus is you get to select the wood used to age
                  > >the spirits, instead of the manufacturer of the barrel.
                  >
                  > Why barrels? It's because they breathe. Aging is a complex
                  > scientific process. The raw materials have to be there, but some of
                  > the process requires time; that's why a 20 year old single malt costs
                  > more than an 8 year old single malt all things being equal. A
                  > container which breathes like an oak barrel contributes to that chemistry.
                • jsducote
                  Best thread, I think -- http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?&t=10838
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 29, 2012
                    Best thread, I think --
                    http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?&t=10838

                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jsducote" <jsducote@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Here's an interesting thought:
                    > If spirit needs wood-air interaction to age, and sterile glass jars are an improvement over full-oak barrels, why not combine the two? Mason jars with white oak lids. I came to the idea on my own, but then googled it to find I wasn't the only one who thought of it. There's several discussions on homedistiller.org.
                    >
                    > -John
                    >
                    > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Derek Hamlet <derekhamlet@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > At 06:28 AM 10/28/2012, you wrote:
                    > > >In my opinion you can age spirits in glass containers using charred
                    > > >wood chips just as well as using a barrel and at a whole lot less
                    > > >expense. A another plus is you get to select the wood used to age
                    > > >the spirits, instead of the manufacturer of the barrel.
                    > >
                    > > Why barrels? It's because they breathe. Aging is a complex
                    > > scientific process. The raw materials have to be there, but some of
                    > > the process requires time; that's why a 20 year old single malt costs
                    > > more than an 8 year old single malt all things being equal. A
                    > > container which breathes like an oak barrel contributes to that chemistry.
                    >
                  • Rick
                    Keep in mind that when you talk about simulating the aging process that this is what was/is called adulteration . There was a book written (Bad Whisky by
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 29, 2012
                      Keep in mind that when you talk about "simulating" the aging process that this is what was/is called "adulteration". There was a book written (Bad Whisky by Edward Burns) which documented the process in Scotland in the 1800s. This is what led the UK to creating a mandatory aging law of 3 years and 1 day in a government bonded warehouse. That's also why the US doesn't allow the use of carmel coloring. Barrel aging is a "natural" process. As we know, the color of whiskey comes from the oak barrel but the most important thing is the breathing process. As the spirit expands in warm weather, it goes into the pores of the oak. Then, in colder weather it contracts from the pores of the oak back into the barrel cavity. During this process, the oak deposits some of its flavor components but it also extracts some of the undesirable flavor components from the spirit.

                      Granted, you can achieve the coloring and some of the flavoring exchange with oak chips but you're never going to match the results of true barrel aging. That doesn't mean we can't keep trying (and having fun in the process) but so far, no one has had any decent results. If so, he big guys would be doing it. Barrel aging for many years is a costly process.

                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jsducote" <jsducote@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Best thread, I think --
                      > http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?&t=10838
                      >
                      > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jsducote" <jsducote@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Here's an interesting thought:
                      > > If spirit needs wood-air interaction to age, and sterile glass jars are an improvement over full-oak barrels, why not combine the two? Mason jars with white oak lids. I came to the idea on my own, but then googled it to find I wasn't the only one who thought of it. There's several discussions on homedistiller.org.
                      > >
                      > > -John
                      > >
                      > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Derek Hamlet <derekhamlet@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > At 06:28 AM 10/28/2012, you wrote:
                      > > > >In my opinion you can age spirits in glass containers using charred
                      > > > >wood chips just as well as using a barrel and at a whole lot less
                      > > > >expense. A another plus is you get to select the wood used to age
                      > > > >the spirits, instead of the manufacturer of the barrel.
                      > > >
                      > > > Why barrels? It's because they breathe. Aging is a complex
                      > > > scientific process. The raw materials have to be there, but some of
                      > > > the process requires time; that's why a 20 year old single malt costs
                      > > > more than an 8 year old single malt all things being equal. A
                      > > > container which breathes like an oak barrel contributes to that chemistry.
                      > >
                      >
                    • Derek Hamlet
                      ... I think that sums it up quite beautifully. I know all of us border on the verge of brilliance and creativity and one of us one day may slash the gordian
                      Message 10 of 20 , Oct 29, 2012
                        At 09:16 AM 10/29/2012, you wrote:

                        >Granted, you can achieve the coloring and some of the flavoring
                        >exchange with oak chips but you're never going to match the results
                        >of true barrel aging. That doesn't mean we can't keep trying (and
                        >having fun in the process) but so far, no one has had any decent
                        >results. If so, he big guys would be doing it. Barrel aging for many
                        >years is a costly process.

                        I think that sums it up quite beautifully. I know all of us border
                        on the verge of brilliance and creativity and one of us one day may
                        slash the gordian knot of instant aging, but I suspect even Star Trek
                        failed in that regard. We can still have fun and leave the 20 year
                        aging to the big guys.


                        Derek
                      • tgfoitwoods
                        Some of this I can t entirely accept. First, the big boys have to turn a profit, and we not limited by that. I think most accomplished hobby distillers have
                        Message 11 of 20 , Oct 29, 2012
                          Some of this I can't entirely accept. First, the "big boys" have to turn a profit, and we not limited by that. I think most accomplished hobby distillers have gone back to a product they used to admire, only to find that now they can taste heads or tails or some other flaw in the spirit, flaws that they themselves would never commit.

                          Also, a few months ago, a group of 7 or 8 of us did a blind tasting of 6 bourbons. We tasted for both nose and palate, and one of my bourbons was hands-down better, by all accounts, than everything except the Woodford Reserve. It handily beat the 10-year-old single barrel Evan Williams, although it was only 6 or 7 years old. The funny part is that while I age now with home-heat-treated bourbon barrel splints, that old bourbon was aged with LHBS oaks chips.

                          Do not accept limitations just because you are not a "big boy"; in many cases they are just making money by banging that whiskey through an industrial column still, instead of doing it right with a pot still.

                          McDonalds is also a big boy. Can you make better hamburgers than that?

                          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Derek Hamlet <derekhamlet@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > At 09:16 AM 10/29/2012, you wrote:
                          >
                          > >Granted, you can achieve the coloring and some of the flavoring
                          > >exchange with oak chips but you're never going to match the results
                          > >of true barrel aging. That doesn't mean we can't keep trying (and
                          > >having fun in the process) but so far, no one has had any decent
                          > >results. If so, he big guys would be doing it. Barrel aging for many
                          > >years is a costly process.
                          >
                          > I think that sums it up quite beautifully. I know all of us border
                          > on the verge of brilliance and creativity and one of us one day may
                          > slash the gordian knot of instant aging, but I suspect even Star Trek
                          > failed in that regard. We can still have fun and leave the 20 year
                          > aging to the big guys.
                          >
                          >
                          > Derek
                          >
                        • waljaco
                          There are more oak-aged wines than their are oak barrels. I doubt that most drinkers would know the difference. wal
                          Message 12 of 20 , Oct 30, 2012
                            There are more oak-aged wines than their are oak barrels. I doubt that most drinkers would know the difference.
                            wal

                            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Some of this I can't entirely accept. First, the "big boys" have to turn a profit, and we not limited by that. I think most accomplished hobby distillers have gone back to a product they used to admire, only to find that now they can taste heads or tails or some other flaw in the spirit, flaws that they themselves would never commit.
                            >
                            > Also, a few months ago, a group of 7 or 8 of us did a blind tasting of 6 bourbons. We tasted for both nose and palate, and one of my bourbons was hands-down better, by all accounts, than everything except the Woodford Reserve. It handily beat the 10-year-old single barrel Evan Williams, although it was only 6 or 7 years old. The funny part is that while I age now with home-heat-treated bourbon barrel splints, that old bourbon was aged with LHBS oaks chips.
                            >
                            > Do not accept limitations just because you are not a "big boy"; in many cases they are just making money by banging that whiskey through an industrial column still, instead of doing it right with a pot still.
                            >
                            > McDonalds is also a big boy. Can you make better hamburgers than that?
                            >
                            > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Derek Hamlet <derekhamlet@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > At 09:16 AM 10/29/2012, you wrote:
                            > >
                            > > >Granted, you can achieve the coloring and some of the flavoring
                            > > >exchange with oak chips but you're never going to match the results
                            > > >of true barrel aging. That doesn't mean we can't keep trying (and
                            > > >having fun in the process) but so far, no one has had any decent
                            > > >results. If so, he big guys would be doing it. Barrel aging for many
                            > > >years is a costly process.
                            > >
                            > > I think that sums it up quite beautifully. I know all of us border
                            > > on the verge of brilliance and creativity and one of us one day may
                            > > slash the gordian knot of instant aging, but I suspect even Star Trek
                            > > failed in that regard. We can still have fun and leave the 20 year
                            > > aging to the big guys.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Derek
                            > >
                            >
                          • Carl
                            I know for fact that most oak aged wines are aged in huge stainless vats with bags of toasted chips, all computer calculated. It was even shown on a TV program
                            Message 13 of 20 , Oct 30, 2012
                              I know for fact that most oak aged wines are aged in huge stainless vats with bags of toasted chips, all computer calculated. It was even shown on a TV program as well at a winery of which I know the owners very well.
                              Jan.





                              On 30/10/2012 10:28 PM, waljaco wrote:
                               

                              There are more oak-aged wines than their are oak barrels. I doubt that most drinkers would know the difference.
                              wal

                              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Some of this I can't entirely accept. First, the "big boys" have to turn a profit, and we not limited by that. I think most accomplished hobby distillers have gone back to a product they used to admire, only to find that now they can taste heads or tails or some other flaw in the spirit, flaws that they themselves would never commit.
                              >
                              > Also, a few months ago, a group of 7 or 8 of us did a blind tasting of 6 bourbons. We tasted for both nose and palate, and one of my bourbons was hands-down better, by all accounts, than everything except the Woodford Reserve. It handily beat the 10-year-old single barrel Evan Williams, although it was only 6 or 7 years old. The funny part is that while I age now with home-heat-treated bourbon barrel splints, that old bourbon was aged with LHBS oaks chips.
                              >
                              > Do not accept limitations just because you are not a "big boy"; in many cases they are just making money by banging that whiskey through an industrial column still, instead of doing it right with a pot still.
                              >
                              > McDonalds is also a big boy. Can you make better hamburgers than that?
                              >
                              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Derek Hamlet <derekhamlet@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > At 09:16 AM 10/29/2012, you wrote:
                              > >
                              > > >Granted, you can achieve the coloring and some of the flavoring
                              > > >exchange with oak chips but you're never going to match the results
                              > > >of true barrel aging. That doesn't mean we can't keep trying (and
                              > > >having fun in the process) but so far, no one has had any decent
                              > > >results. If so, he big guys would be doing it. Barrel aging for many
                              > > >years is a costly process.
                              > >
                              > > I think that sums it up quite beautifully. I know all of us border
                              > > on the verge of brilliance and creativity and one of us one day may
                              > > slash the gordian knot of instant aging, but I suspect even Star Trek
                              > > failed in that regard. We can still have fun and leave the 20 year
                              > > aging to the big guys.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Derek
                              > >
                              >


                            • Derek Hamlet
                              ... True, and with the massive increase in wine consumption over the past 25 years that was a natural way for the industry to proceed. However, the truly
                              Message 14 of 20 , Oct 30, 2012
                                At 11:22 AM 10/30/2012, you wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >I know for fact that most oak aged wines are aged in huge stainless
                                >vats with bags of toasted chips, all computer calculated. It was
                                >even shown on a TV program as well at a winery of which I know the
                                >owners very well.

                                True, and with the massive increase in wine consumption over the past
                                25 years that was a natural way for the industry to
                                proceed. However, the truly great wines that are also very
                                expensive and prepared in oak barrels and aiming at a chemistry that
                                makes for complexity and ability to continue aging and improving for 25+ years.


                                Derek
                              • Rick Wrightson
                                In 1988, I had the privilege of having lunch with Robert Mondavi at his winery in Napa Valley. He explained that they had tried to go to stainless steel but
                                Message 15 of 20 , Oct 30, 2012
                                  In 1988, I had the privilege of having lunch with Robert Mondavi at his winery in Napa Valley. He explained that they had tried to go to stainless steel but quickly discovered that they could not beat the maturation of oak barrels and for their quality wines, and were moving back to the traditional methods (of France)...I had with me a French friend whose family has owned Le Montrachet for 300 years and Mr. Mondavi was honored to have my friend and told him that they taste the Mondavi wines against le Montrachet in their attempt to match its quality. Unfortunately, both Mr Mondavi and my French friend are now decease but their wines live on.
                                  [looks like we've gone a little off track from whiskey ;-))
                                • jsducote
                                  I can t speak for anyone else, but I don t think this thread was about cheating or simulating anything. My recollection is that it started with an observation
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Oct 30, 2012
                                    I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think this thread was about cheating or simulating anything. My recollection is that it started with an observation that full-barrel aging of small batches did not give optimal taste. The way I read it was that there's a difference between the big barrels and smaller ones, saying nothing about big corporate distillers versus homemade. Thus, regardless of how long it takes, there are various ways to achieve small-batch aging.
                                    -j

                                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Derek Hamlet <derekhamlet@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > At 09:16 AM 10/29/2012, you wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >Granted, you can achieve the coloring and some of the flavoring
                                    > >exchange with oak chips but you're never going to match the results
                                    > >of true barrel aging. That doesn't mean we can't keep trying (and
                                    > >having fun in the process) but so far, no one has had any decent
                                    > >results. If so, he big guys would be doing it. Barrel aging for many
                                    > >years is a costly process.
                                    >
                                    > I think that sums it up quite beautifully. I know all of us border
                                    > on the verge of brilliance and creativity and one of us one day may
                                    > slash the gordian knot of instant aging, but I suspect even Star Trek
                                    > failed in that regard. We can still have fun and leave the 20 year
                                    > aging to the big guys.
                                  • waljaco
                                    I have not come across a chemical analysis that shows a difference between the two methods. Maybe you need to justify an expensive wine or whisky with some
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Oct 31, 2012
                                      I have not come across a chemical analysis that shows a difference between the two methods. Maybe you need to justify an expensive wine or whisky with some pseudo-science...
                                      wal

                                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Derek Hamlet <derekhamlet@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > At 11:22 AM 10/30/2012, you wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >I know for fact that most oak aged wines are aged in huge stainless
                                      > >vats with bags of toasted chips, all computer calculated. It was
                                      > >even shown on a TV program as well at a winery of which I know the
                                      > >owners very well.
                                      >
                                      > True, and with the massive increase in wine consumption over the past
                                      > 25 years that was a natural way for the industry to
                                      > proceed. However, the truly great wines that are also very
                                      > expensive and prepared in oak barrels and aiming at a chemistry that
                                      > makes for complexity and ability to continue aging and improving for 25+ years.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Derek
                                      >
                                    • Peter Davis
                                      A question I have that I could`nt find an answer for What happens if I was to put rum chips in a pot still when I am cooking the wash. will any of that flavour
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Oct 31, 2012
                                        A question I have that I could`nt find an answer for
                                        What happens if I was to put rum chips in a pot still when I am cooking the wash. will any of that flavour come across??
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 5:40 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Aging whisky

                                         

                                        In 1988, I had the privilege of having lunch with Robert Mondavi at his winery in Napa Valley. He explained that they had tried to go to stainless steel but quickly discovered that they could not beat the maturation of oak barrels and for their quality wines, and were moving back to the traditional methods (of France)...I had with me a French friend whose family has owned Le Montrachet for 300 years and Mr. Mondavi was honored to have my friend and told him that they taste the Mondavi wines against le Montrachet in their attempt to match its quality. Unfortunately, both Mr Mondavi and my French friend are now decease but their wines live on.
                                        [looks like we've gone a little off track from whiskey ;-))

                                      • Derek Hamlet
                                        ... Whiskey or wine, there are so many similarities. If those craft brewers keep up with the good work they are doing then that too will be an art form. Derek
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Oct 31, 2012
                                          At 11:40 AM 10/30/2012, you wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >In 1988, I had the privilege of having lunch with Robert Mondavi at
                                          >his winery in Napa Valley. He explained that they had tried to go to
                                          >stainless steel but quickly discovered that they could not beat the
                                          >maturation of oak barrels and for their quality wines, and were
                                          >moving back to the traditional methods (of France)...I had with me a
                                          >French friend whose family has owned Le Montrachet for 300 years and
                                          >Mr. Mondavi was honored to have my friend and told him that they
                                          >taste the Mondavi wines against le Montrachet in their attempt to
                                          >match its quality. Unfortunately, both Mr Mondavi and my French
                                          >friend are now decease but their wines live on.
                                          >[looks like we've gone a little off track from whiskey ;-))

                                          Whiskey or wine, there are so many similarities. If those craft
                                          brewers keep up with the good work they are doing then that too will
                                          be an art form.


                                          Derek
                                        • tgfoitwoods
                                          Peter, While I ve never done it, I d be amazed if any of the oak flavors would come across. Oak flavors are primarily tannins and lignins, and those compounds
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Nov 1, 2012
                                            Peter,

                                            While I've never done it,  I'd be amazed if any of the oak flavors would come across. Oak flavors are primarily tannins and lignins, and those compounds are not volatile. I'm not sure if the vanillins that are oxidation products of the tannins and lignins are volatile, but they won't exist yet when you put the chips in the wash.

                                            Of course, I'm just guessing here.

                                            Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

                                            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Davis" <davis668@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > A question I have that I could`nt find an answer for
                                            > What happens if I was to put rum chips in a pot still when I am cooking the wash. will any of that flavour come across??
                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > From: Rick Wrightson
                                            > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 5:40 AM
                                            > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Aging whisky
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > In 1988, I had the privilege of having lunch with Robert Mondavi at his winery in Napa Valley. He explained that they had tried to go to stainless steel but quickly discovered that they could not beat the maturation of oak barrels and for their quality wines, and were moving back to the traditional methods (of France)...I had with me a French friend whose family has owned Le Montrachet for 300 years and Mr. Mondavi was honored to have my friend and told him that they taste the Mondavi wines against le Montrachet in their attempt to match its quality. Unfortunately, both Mr Mondavi and my French friend are now decease but their wines live on.
                                            > [looks like we've gone a little off track from whiskey ;-))
                                            >
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