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Copper types for pot still

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  • chriskane990@ymail.com
    Hello all, I m new to this group, as well as home distillation. Ive read a few books on history,stills,fermentation ect.. I think I have the basics, but i have
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 25 11:56 AM
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      Hello all,

      I'm new to this group, as well as home distillation. Ive read a few books on history,stills,fermentation ect.. I think I have the basics, but i have not tried any of it yet. I have settled on a pot type still that i will be building myself. Of all the info i have found, nothing really talks about the grades of copper for the boiler. The local metal store has 110 copper sheet metal. Can anyone tell me if 110 copper metal is a suitable grade for boiler construction. Thanks for any help on this matter and i look foreward to getting to know fellow home distillers, Cheers Chris
    • joe framer
      hello all, I run a valved reflux still with a 2 copper column, packed with stainless steel scrubbers. Have been running it for 2 years doing mostly sugar
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 26 8:46 AM
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        hello all, I run a valved reflux still with a 2" copper column, packed with stainless steel scrubbers. Have been running it for 2 years doing mostly sugar washes from turbo yeast. I feel like I am getting more of an off flavor than before and want to clean my column. I plan to remove the scrubbers and run them through the dishwasher and clean out the column with vinegar. I need to know if there is anything else I need to do, like maybe running it with a diluted vinegar ? I will post this over in distillers group also.  Thanks  Joe Framer
      • GGB
        joe framer wrote: I plan to remove the scrubbers and run them through the dishwasher and clean out the column with vinegar. I need to know if there is
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 26 11:22 AM
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          joe framer wrote: "I plan to remove the scrubbers and run them through the dishwasher and clean out the column with vinegar. I need to know if there is anything else I need to do, like maybe running it with a diluted vinegar?

          Hi Joe and all

          Vinegar and table salt form a most effective copper cleaner that does not need mechanical scrubbing. You must flush the vinegar and salt away completely, once the job is done, with water or you end up forming copper salts ie copper acetate.

          The acetic acid in the vinegar and chloride ions in the salt form hydrochloric acid which is why this cleaner is so effective and quick.

          Paul
        • Harry
          ... Nope. When you mix salt and vinegar, you get something that can be used for making dressings or flavoring chips. Most people d rather not have
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 26 12:26 PM
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            >
            > The acetic acid in the vinegar and chloride ions in the salt form hydrochloric acid which is why this cleaner is so effective and quick.
            >
            > Paul
            >


            Nope. When you mix salt and vinegar, you get something that can be used for making dressings or flavoring chips. Most people'd rather not have hydrochloric acid in their food, would they?

            OK, now serious: nothing happens. Hydrochloric acid is a stronger acid than vinegar so the reaction goes the other way. In other words, if you mix sodium acetate and hydrochloric acid (in equimolar quantities), you get... salt and vinegar.


            Acetic acid is a weak acid and it certainly won't give up its protons to form a strong acid like HCl. Going the other way around does work. When you add sodium acetate to hydrochloric acid, then you obtain acetic acid and table salt.

            Maybe, you could get some HCl in low yield if you add waterfree acetic acid (glacial acetic acid) to table salt. This depends on the solubility of HCl in acetic acid. At low solubility some HCl may be driven off.



            Slainte!
            regards Harry
          • GGB
            Harry wrote: Nope. Well perhaps my understanding is a little faulty, however in a water solution of vinegar and sale, H+ and Cl- ARE floating around, along
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 26 12:39 PM
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              "Harry" wrote: "Nope."

              Well perhaps my understanding is a little faulty, however in a water solution of vinegar and sale, H+ and Cl- ARE floating around, along with acetate and Na+ ions.

              Besides that, nonetheless it is still a wonderful cleaner, and very quick, or perhaps the dozens of times I have used it to clean our copper-bottom saucepans I must have been dreaming.

              Instead of rubbishing a contribution by a newbie, why don't you just try it?

              End of discussion as far as I am concerned. I didn't join up to argue.

              Paul
            • chriskane990@ymail.com
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 26 12:51 PM
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                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "chriskane990@..." <chriskane990@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello all,
                >
                > I'm new to this group, as well as home distillation. Ive read a few books on history,stills,fermentation ect.. I think I have the basics, but i have not tried any of it yet. I have settled on a pot type still that i will be building myself. Of all the info i have found, nothing really talks about the grades of copper for the boiler. The local metal store has 110 copper sheet metal. Can anyone tell me if 110 copper metal is a suitable grade for boiler construction. Thanks for any help on this matter and i look foreward to getting to know fellow home distillers, Cheers Chris
                >
              • made_it_myself
                Hi, sorry tried twice to post on this, computer playing up. Yes it will be good. 110 Copper is 99.9% pure. Please take photos, and post so we can see your
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 26 12:54 PM
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                  Hi, sorry tried twice to post on this, computer playing up.
                  Yes it will be good. 110 Copper is 99.9% pure.
                  Please take photos, and post so we can see your skills.
                  Regards

                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "chriskane990@..." <chriskane990@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "chriskane990@" <chriskane990@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hello all,
                  > >
                  > > I'm new to this group, as well as home distillation. Ive read a few books on history,stills,fermentation ect.. I think I have the basics, but i have not tried any of it yet. I have settled on a pot type still that i will be building myself. Of all the info i have found, nothing really talks about the grades of copper for the boiler. The local metal store has 110 copper sheet metal. Can anyone tell me if 110 copper metal is a suitable grade for boiler construction. Thanks for any help on this matter and i look foreward to getting to know fellow home distillers, Cheers Chris
                  > >
                  >
                • Harry
                  I wasn t rubbishing it my friend. I was correcting a mis-information. That s what we do in this hobby. Keep yer shirt on. And yes it is a great cleaner
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jul 26 1:35 PM
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                    I wasn't "rubbishing" it my friend. I was correcting a mis-information. That's what we do in this hobby. Keep yer shirt on.
                    And yes it is a great cleaner solution we've used in this hobby for many years.

                    Slainte!
                    regards Harry
                    Group Owner

                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "GGB" <self.adhesive@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > "Harry" wrote: "Nope."
                    >
                    > Well perhaps my understanding is a little faulty, however in a water solution of vinegar and sale, H+ and Cl- ARE floating around, along with acetate and Na+ ions.
                    >
                    > Besides that, nonetheless it is still a wonderful cleaner, and very quick, or perhaps the dozens of times I have used it to clean our copper-bottom saucepans I must have been dreaming.
                    >
                    > Instead of rubbishing a contribution by a newbie, why don't you just try it?
                    >
                    > End of discussion as far as I am concerned. I didn't join up to argue.
                    >
                    > Paul
                    >
                  • MoSS
                    Copper is copper, once you add another element to it, it becomes something else. I would be certain that 110 Copper that your local sells is possibly a
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jul 26 2:19 PM
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                      Copper is copper, once you add another element to it, it becomes something else.

                      I would be certain that 110 Copper that your local sells is possibly a manufactures ID of thickness (1.10 mm or 110 thou?) or anything else that takes there fancy.


                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "chriskane990@..." <chriskane990@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello all,
                      >
                      > I'm new to this group, as well as home distillation. Ive read a few books on history,stills,fermentation ect.. I think I have the basics, but i have not tried any of it yet. I have settled on a pot type still that i will be building myself. Of all the info i have found, nothing really talks about the grades of copper for the boiler. The local metal store has 110 copper sheet metal. Can anyone tell me if 110 copper metal is a suitable grade for boiler construction. Thanks for any help on this matter and i look foreward to getting to know fellow home distillers, Cheers Chris
                      >
                    • pint_o_shine
                      110 copper is 99.9% pure copper. It is common or electrical grade copper. Hard copper water pipe has a small percent of phosphorus to add corrosion resistance.
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jul 27 8:28 AM
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                        110 copper is 99.9% pure copper. It is common or electrical grade copper. Hard copper water pipe has a small percent of phosphorus to add corrosion resistance. Without spending large amounts of money, 110 is the best you can buy.

                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "MoSS" <mike@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Copper is copper, once you add another element to it, it becomes something else.
                        >
                        > I would be certain that 110 Copper that your local sells is possibly a manufactures ID of thickness (1.10 mm or 110 thou?) or anything else that takes there fancy.
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "chriskane990@" <chriskane990@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hello all,
                        > >
                        > > I'm new to this group, as well as home distillation. Ive read a few books on history,stills,fermentation ect.. I think I have the basics, but i have not tried any of it yet. I have settled on a pot type still that i will be building myself. Of all the info i have found, nothing really talks about the grades of copper for the boiler. The local metal store has 110 copper sheet metal. Can anyone tell me if 110 copper metal is a suitable grade for boiler construction. Thanks for any help on this matter and i look foreward to getting to know fellow home distillers, Cheers Chris
                        > >
                        >
                      • chriskane990@ymail.com
                        Thanks for the help, will be sure to post pics when done!
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jul 27 1:48 PM
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                          Thanks for the help, will be sure to post pics when done!
                          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "pint_o_shine"
                          <pintoshine@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > 110 copper is 99.9% pure copper. It is common or electrical grade copper. Hard copper water pipe has a small percent of phosphorus to add corrosion resistance. Without spending large amounts of money, 110 is the best you can buy.
                          >
                          > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "MoSS" <mike@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Copper is copper, once you add another element to it, it becomes something else.
                          > >
                          > > I would be certain that 110 Copper that your local sells is possibly a manufactures ID of thickness (1.10 mm or 110 thou?) or anything else that takes there fancy.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "chriskane990@" <chriskane990@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Hello all,
                          > > >
                          > > > I'm new to this group, as well as home distillation. Ive read a few books on history,stills,fermentation ect.. I think I have the basics, but i have not tried any of it yet. I have settled on a pot type still that i will be building myself. Of all the info i have found, nothing really talks about the grades of copper for the boiler. The local metal store has 110 copper sheet metal. Can anyone tell me if 110 copper metal is a suitable grade for boiler construction. Thanks for any help on this matter and i look foreward to getting to know fellow home distillers, Cheers Chris
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • GGB
                          Hi Harry I asked a friend who has a PhD in chemistry for some help with this, and his reply is as follows: Mixing the NaCl and acetic acid may be a good
                          Message 12 of 16 , Aug 1, 2012
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                            Hi Harry

                            I asked a friend who has a PhD in chemistry for some help with this, and his reply is as follows:

                            "Mixing the NaCl and acetic acid may be a good cleaner, but it will NOT form HCl.  It simply can't b/z the pK_a of HCl is way lower than that of acetic acid.    It may be a good cleaner, simply b/z it could be forming a good Lewis acid (an electron pair acceptor).  This means it will act as an oxidizing agent, robbing whatever compounds of electrons."

                            I had found the definition of acetic acid + salt forming HCL on a couple of web sites, and they seemed authoritative.

                            Sorry for the mix up. Never believe everything you read!

                            Paul
                          • Harry
                            ... snip ... It s all good Paul. Thanks for the follow-up. I guess we are all better informed now. ;) Cheers! Slainte! regards Harry
                            Message 13 of 16 , Aug 2, 2012
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                              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "GGB" <self.adhesive@...> wrote:
                              snip>
                              > I had found the definition of acetic acid + salt forming HCL on a couple of web sites, and they seemed authoritative.
                              >
                              > Sorry for the mix up. Never believe everything you read!
                              >
                              > Paul
                              >


                              It's all good Paul. Thanks for the follow-up. I guess we are all better informed now. ;) Cheers!


                              Slainte!
                              regards Harry
                            • roguerider01
                              ... wonder if that would be good for heavely rusted copper fire extinguisher
                              Message 14 of 16 , Aug 21, 2012
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                                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "GGB" <self.adhesive@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi Harry
                                >
                                > I asked a friend who has a PhD in chemistry for some help with this, and his reply is as follows:
                                >
                                > "Mixing the NaCl and acetic acid may be a good cleaner, but it will NOT form HCl.  It simply can't b/z the pK_a of HCl is way lower than that of acetic acid.    It may be a good cleaner, simply b/z it could be forming a good Lewis acid (an electron pair acceptor).  This means it will act as an oxidizing agent, robbing whatever compounds of electrons."
                                >
                                > I had found the definition of acetic acid + salt forming HCL on a couple of web sites, and they seemed authoritative.
                                >
                                > Sorry for the mix up. Never believe everything you read!
                                >
                                > Paul
                                >
                                wonder if that would be good for heavely rusted copper fire extinguisher
                              • GGB
                                roguerider01 wrote: wonder if that would be good for heavely rusted copper fire extinguisher What I found was that the green-blue deposits in copper are
                                Message 15 of 16 , Aug 21, 2012
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                                  "roguerider01" wrote: "wonder if that would be good for heavely rusted copper fire extinguisher"

                                  What I found was that the green-blue deposits in copper are not oxides but chlorides, carbonates and etc. Two types of copper oxide are reddish, and black. The latter forms as a result of brazing ie high temperature.

                                  Neat HCl will clean away all these salts but not too strong or it will eat away the copper too especially if heated - or that is what I read. I used 28% and a little 33% mixed with old 28%. From memory 35% is the strongest there is. It fumes, be careful with it, and the fumes will cause corrosion of any steel tools etc within a few feet distance over time.

                                  One of the types of copper chloride, green in colour, dissolves in HCl but when you wash it away with water it comes out of solution and immediately becomes a white salt.

                                  "Rust" ie iron oxide should not occur with pure copper. Maybe your fire extinguisher is copper plated. HCl will also dissolve rust. You could try some on an inconspicuous place. If the extinguisher is steel I can't vouch for what it will look like afterwards.

                                  Paul
                                • roguerider01
                                  ... ok thanks paul for the info.... the copper extinguisher was made in 1963 i spoke to a few experts and fire nuts and they clame its 100% copper except the
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Sep 8, 2012
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                                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "GGB" <self.adhesive@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > "roguerider01" wrote: "wonder if that would be good for heavely rusted copper fire extinguisher"
                                    >
                                    > What I found was that the green-blue deposits in copper are not oxides but chlorides, carbonates and etc. Two types of copper oxide are reddish, and black. The latter forms as a result of brazing ie high temperature.
                                    >
                                    > Neat HCl will clean away all these salts but not too strong or it will eat away the copper too especially if heated - or that is what I read. I used 28% and a little 33% mixed with old 28%. From memory 35% is the strongest there is. It fumes, be careful with it, and the fumes will cause corrosion of any steel tools etc within a few feet distance over time.
                                    >
                                    > One of the types of copper chloride, green in colour, dissolves in HCl but when you wash it away with water it comes out of solution and immediately becomes a white salt.
                                    >
                                    > "Rust" ie iron oxide should not occur with pure copper. Maybe your fire extinguisher is copper plated. HCl will also dissolve rust. You could try some on an inconspicuous place. If the extinguisher is steel I can't vouch for what it will look like afterwards.
                                    >
                                    > Paul
                                    >
                                    ok thanks paul for the info.... the copper extinguisher was made in 1963 i spoke to a few experts and fire nuts and they clame its 100% copper except the head of the extinguisher which is was mixed metals i dont know what thou
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