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vm lm or cm

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  • Jim
    Hi can anyone ring in on maybe the pros and cons of the three different systems I have a vague idea of the difference between Lm and vm but would like some
    Message 1 of 16 , May 14 9:43 PM
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      Hi can anyone ring in on maybe the pros and cons of the three different systems I have a vague idea of the difference between Lm and vm but would like some input on what people prefer I''m in the middle of building three different size reflux stills and don't have a clear understanding of pros and cons of the different ways to get liker..and yes I've bought several books and read as much as I can handle but guess the water got muddy help jim
    • laxt57@aol.com
      Hi Start off with a pot still. After you get a little practice and experience go to a boku Jeri ... From: Jim To: new_distillers
      Message 2 of 16 , May 15 2:23 PM
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        Hi
        Start off with a pot still.
        After you get a little practice and experience go to a boku
        Jeri



        -----Original Message-----
        From: Jim <jimgabbard112754@...>
        To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tue, May 15, 2012 4:13 pm
        Subject: [new_distillers] vm lm or cm

         
        Hi can anyone ring in on maybe the pros and cons of the three different systems I have a vague idea of the difference between Lm and vm but would like some input on what people prefer I''m in the middle of building three different size reflux stills and don't have a clear understanding of pros and cons of the different ways to get liker..and yes I've bought several books and read as much as I can handle but guess the water got muddy help jim

      • Bob Glicksman
        This is not a comprehensive list, but I hope that it helps: 1. VM: Pros: easy to control. Cheap valve (big ball or gate valve, vs small expensive needle
        Message 3 of 16 , May 15 4:45 PM
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          This is not a comprehensive list, but I hope that it helps:
           
          1.  VM: 
               Pros: easy to control.  Cheap valve (big ball or gate valve, vs small expensive needle vavle for liquids). 
               Cons:  the reflux control valve is up near the still head, so you need to climb a ladder to manipulate it (or rig up a pole or somethign to control it from the ground).  Also, two condensers are required:  reflux and product.
           
          2.  LM:
               Pros: very easy to control.  One condenser only is needed.  The control can be near the ground.
               Cons:  needle valve is needed for control.  Routing the liquid reflux down the center of the column requires some attention to the reflux mechanical design and fabrication.
           
          3.  CM:
               Pros:  The control can be near the ground and anywhere in the coolant feed path.
               Cons:  More difficult to control (less direct than LM and VM).  Needle valve needed for control -- may require special materials if other than water is used for cooling.  Also, two condensers are required: reflux and product.
           

           
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Jim <jimgabbard112754@...>
          To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tue, May 15, 2012 2:13 pm
          Subject: [new_distillers] vm lm or cm

           
          Hi can anyone ring in on maybe the pros and cons of the three different systems I have a vague idea of the difference between Lm and vm but would like some input on what people prefer I''m in the middle of building three different size reflux stills and don't have a clear understanding of pros and cons of the different ways to get liker..and yes I've bought several books and read as much as I can handle but guess the water got muddy help jim

        • geoff burrows
          Hi Jim, You’re at the stage we all went through at the start. That of information overload. What you now need to do is settle on a known workable still
          Message 4 of 16 , May 15 11:49 PM
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            Hi Jim,

            You’re at the stage we all went through at the start.  That of information overload.  What you now need to do is settle on a known workable still design for the product you would like to produce.

                 Make it and learn from it because armed with this new found knowledge you will be better able to move forward in this new hobby.

                 But as sure as guns are made of metal you are going to make another still like we all have.  Get off the fence or you’ll get splinters in your butt.  Get down in the mucky and get your hands dirty and get making.

                 In order to make any particular item of your still, you need to have a fundamental understanding of how to make it, where it goes, also why and how it works long before you make it (more knowledge and experience). 

                 This is you learning and when it’s learnt (just like when you learnt the alphabet) you will automatically tuck it away and go on to the next lesson this makes the whole field of distilling less muddy and confusing.

                 It’s this basic practical knowledge you acquire and tuck away in the background which makes the next thing you do more understandable.  This practical experience will let you make sense of all you have read. 

                 Don’t try too hard getting it exactly right the first time because you probably won’t the first time (how many times did you fall down before you learned how to walk?) 

                 It’s the ability of knowing and learning from your own mistakes that makes you more knowledgeable and experienced.  Plus it’s all backed up with the theory of your own reading.

            Settle on a design and make it and see how you go from there

            Geoff     

          • tonyjones60@comcast.net
            I prefer VM because foreshots and heads are minimized. When you find a good setting with the ball valve, on a VM still, the distillate comes out at around 4
            Message 5 of 16 , May 17 1:54 PM
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              I prefer VM because foreshots and heads are minimized. When you find a good setting with the ball valve, on a VM still, the distillate comes out at around 4 drips per second. With a 2 inch column, for me this works out to approximately 1 qt per hour of 193-195 proof. My favorite thing about VM is that at the end of the run, the still stops itself. I mean that as long as you leave the valve alone and don't open it more, then the distillate will stop dripping when the alcohol vapor does not contain enough ethanol and tends to go up to the reflux condenser. The reflux condenser knocks the vapor back down into the column and the cycle continues to repeat itself. Meanwhile, the output ceases. 


              From: laxt57@...
              To: "new distillers" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 5:23:43 PM
              Subject: Re: [new_distillers] vm lm or cm

               

              Hi
              Start off with a pot still.
              After you get a little practice and experience go to a boku
              Jeri




              -----Original Message-----
              From: Jim <jimgabbard112754@...>
              To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tue, May 15, 2012 4:13 pm
              Subject: [new_distillers] vm lm or cm

               
              Hi can anyone ring in on maybe the pros and cons of the three different systems I have a vague idea of the difference between Lm and vm but would like some input on what people prefer I''m in the middle of building three different size reflux stills and don't have a clear understanding of pros and cons of the different ways to get liker..and yes I've bought several books and read as much as I can handle but guess the water got muddy help jim

            • jim gabbard
              GeoffThanks for your input I think your right sometimes it s best to get your feet wet.. jim To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com From: jeffrey.burrows@orange.fr
              Message 6 of 16 , May 18 12:03 PM
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                Geoff
                Thanks for your input I think your right sometimes it's best to get your feet wet.. jim 
                 

                To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                From: jeffrey.burrows@...
                Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 08:49:11 +0200
                Subject: [new_distillers] Re: vm lm or cm

                 

                Hi Jim,

                You’re at the stage we all went through at the start.  That of information overload.  What you now need to do is settle on a known workable still design for the product you would like to produce.

                     Make it and learn from it because armed with this new found knowledge you will be better able to move forward in this new hobby.

                     But as sure as guns are made of metal you are going to make another still like we all have.  Get off the fence or you’ll get splinters in your butt.  Get down in the mucky and get your hands dirty and get making.

                     In order to make any particular item of your still, you need to have a fundamental understanding of how to make it, where it goes, also why and how it works long before you make it (more knowledge and experience). 

                     This is you learning and when it’s learnt (just like when you learnt the alphabet) you will automatically tuck it away and go on to the next lesson this makes the whole field of distilling less muddy and confusing.

                     It’s this basic practical knowledge you acquire and tuck away in the background which makes the next thing you do more understandable.  This practical experience will let you make sense of all you have read. 

                     Don’t try too hard getting it exactly right the first time because you probably won’t the first time (how many times did you fall down before you learned how to walk?) 

                     It’s the ability of knowing and learning from your own mistakes that makes you more knowledgeable and experienced.  Plus it’s all backed up with the theory of your own reading.

                Settle on a design and make it and see how you go from there

                Geoff     


              • Darrin Quinter
                Geoff GREAT post well said! I spent forever in information overload waiting trying to figure out what to build.....Ya just have to pick one and do it. _____
                Message 7 of 16 , May 18 2:38 PM
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                  Geoff GREAT post well said! I spent forever in information overload waiting trying to figure out what to build.....Ya just have to pick one and do it.

                   


                  From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of geoff burrows
                  Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 2:49 AM
                  To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [new_distillers] Re: vm lm or cm

                   




                  Hi Jim,

                  You’re at the stage we all went through at the start.  That of information overload.  What you now need to do is settle on a known workable still design for the product you would like to produce.

                       Make it and learn from it because armed with this new found knowledge you will be better able to move forward in this new hobby.

                       But as sure as guns are made of metal you are going to make another still like we all have.  Get off the fence or you’ll get splinters in your butt.  Get down in the mucky and get your hands dirty and get making.

                       In order to make any particular item of your still, you need to have a fundamental understanding of how to make it, where it goes, also why and how it works long before you make it (more knowledge and experience). 

                       This is you learning and when it’s learnt (just like when you learnt the alphabet) you will automatically tuck it away and go on to the next lesson this makes the whole field of distilling less muddy and confusing.

                       It’s this basic practical knowledge you acquire and tuck away in the background which makes the next thing you do more understandable.  This practical experience will let you make sense of all you have read. 

                       Don’t try too hard getting it exactly right the first time because you probably won’t the first time (how many times did you fall down before you learned how to walk?) 

                       It’s the ability of knowing and learning from your own mistakes that makes you more knowledgeable and experienced.  Plus it’s all backed up with the theory of your own reading.

                  Settle on a design and make it and see how you go from there

                  Geoff    



                  No virus found in this message.
                  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                  Version: 2012.0.2176 / Virus Database: 2425/5000 - Release Date: 05/15/12

                • mslovjoy
                  Hi Jim, and all. Did anyone ever answer your still management question? If so, would you share the answer(s) with a fellow newbee? I agree with Darrin, that
                  Message 8 of 16 , Oct 11, 2013
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                    Hi Jim, and all. Did anyone ever answer your still management question? If so, would you share the answer(s) with a fellow newbee?  I agree with Darrin, that Geoff's (NON) answer to you, is beautifully a composed "I don't know, go figure it out for yourself." Maybe it was innocent, and well intended, but how rude. I've had the answer,"I know, but it would take too long to tell you!" Come on guys, Jim, and I wouldn't do that to you, if YOU were new, and not wanting to re invent this wheel. No offense, simply a sad observation. Helpful replies welcomed, or flame on, if that's your need. 



                    ---In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, <dquinter@...> wrote:

                    Geoff GREAT post well said! I spent forever in information overload waiting trying to figure out what to build.....Ya just have to pick one and do it.

                     


                    From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of geoff burrows
                    Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 2:49 AM
                    To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [new_distillers] Re: vm lm or cm

                     




                    Hi Jim,

                    You’re at the stage we all went through at the start.  That of information overload.  What you now need to do is settle on a known workable still design for the product you would like to produce.

                         Make it and learn from it because armed with this new found knowledge you will be better able to move forward in this new hobby.

                         But as sure as guns are made of metal you are going to make another still like we all have.  Get off the fence or you’ll get splinters in your butt.  Get down in the mucky and get your hands dirty and get making.

                         In order to make any particular item of your still, you need to have a fundamental understanding of how to make it, where it goes, also why and how it works long before you make it (more knowledge and experience). 

                         This is you learning and when it’s learnt (just like when you learnt the alphabet) you will automatically tuck it away and go on to the next lesson this makes the whole field of distilling less muddy and confusing.

                         It’s this basic practical knowledge you acquire and tuck away in the background which makes the next thing you do more understandable.  This practical experience will let you make sense of all you have read. 

                         Don’t try too hard getting it exactly right the first time because you probably won’t the first time (how many times did you fall down before you learned how to walk?) 

                         It’s the ability of knowing and learning from your own mistakes that makes you more knowledgeable and experienced.  Plus it’s all backed up with the theory of your own reading.

                    Settle on a design and make it and see how you go from there

                    Geoff    



                    No virus found in this message.
                    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                    Version: 2012.0.2176 / Virus Database: 2425/5000 - Release Date: 05/15/12

                  • Zapata Vive
                    Geez dude, lighten up some? Fact is the answer wasn t rude at all. I d say maybe 1 in a million newbies could possibly understand all the nuanced answers
                    Message 9 of 16 , Oct 12, 2013
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                      Geez dude, lighten up some?  Fact is the answer wasn't rude at all.  I'd say maybe 1 in a million newbies could possibly understand all the nuanced answers that could be given, and at that, many answers would be different because virtually none have even run all the possible management types, all their various modifications, and heck, even combinations.

                      Once you HAVE a rig, and have pondered it's use in action, a couple hundred light bulb go off, you will understand why it's important to start somewhere, almost anywhere before trying to understand everything. 

                      Home distillation is part art, part science.  To further that metaphor, how many scientists get their undergraduate degree without lots of hours in the lab?  Much less a phd with no lab time?  On the art side of the metaphor, how many artists create a masterpiece based only on art theory with zero prior experience with a particular media?  No matter how skilled in an art you are, could you write me a msg and tell me how to nail it perfectly my first try with no experience?  If I could send Einstein an email, would I be able to prove unified field theory my first day in a laboratory?  Maybe I'll email Jimmy Hendrix and ask him how to be a rock star....

                      Even the question is flawed and incomplete, only VM, CM and LM were asked.  What about RLM?  VM/LM combos?  Whatever abreviation was coined for the movable reflux coil?  Even within the categories asked, take VM for example, are we talking Nixon's original style with the VM take off well below the RC, in which case tails will be automatically reduced, or are we talking about the newer T designs which run as deep into tails as you care to take them?  Do YOU understand the physics behind that difference?  If so, then you probably don't need advice.  Does the VM in question have a heads trap above it?  It makes a HUGE difference!  Are we talking CM with cross tubes low in the column or a partial reflux condesnor?  The pros and cons of each management type depend on exactly which design you're talking about, and what you want out of it.  example; CM pro - easy to build; con - outdated design with inferior results.  This statement is true for some CM designs, and absolutely false for others.  Likewise, VM pro automatically reduces tails; con - minimum reflux rate is 1:1.  This sentence is absolutely true for some designs and absolutely false for others.

                      Moreover, do YOU care about water efficiency?  Are YOU ever going to recycle tails?  Do YOU enjoy a more hands on or automatic spirit run?  Are YOU fond of or can't stand late heads?  Can YOU even taste the difference between true neutral and run of the mill azeo ethanol?  Are you seeing how much YOU goes into what details even matter to YOU?

                      Nothing wrong with asking questions as a newb.  But you have to realize that those with more experience may not only have answers to your questions, but also advice that your original question is barking up the wrong tree.

                      Geoff's asnwer was a good one.  Pick a design proven by many to work well making the product you are interested in.  Spend some lab time learning the science or doing the art.  Then you'll have the experience and understanding necessary to decide on your next still, or to be perfectly happy with a good enough design to begin with.  Some master level distillers prefer each still type, none of them are wrong, it's their personal preferences, circumstances and exact applications that differ.  As a beginner you have no preference, circumstance nor application, so nobody can guide you much further than picking one of a few proven good designs, learning on it, and seeing what you learn and what you want.  It is good advice, and you are arrogant and ignorant to deride it.  Even the OP appreciated that while it might not have been a good direct answer, it was better advice.




                      On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 3:26 PM, <mslovjoy@...> wrote:
                       

                      Hi Jim, and all. Did anyone ever answer your still management question? If so, would you share the answer(s) with a fellow newbee?  I agree with Darrin, that Geoff's (NON) answer to you, is beautifully a composed "I don't know, go figure it out for yourself." Maybe it was innocent, and well intended, but how rude. I've had the answer,"I know, but it would take too long to tell you!" Come on guys, Jim, and I wouldn't do that to you, if YOU were new, and not wanting to re invent this wheel. No offense, simply a sad observation. Helpful replies welcomed, or flame on, if that's your need. 



                      ---In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, <dquinter@...> wrote:

                      Geoff GREAT post well said! I spent forever in information overload waiting trying to figure out what to build.....Ya just have to pick one and do it.

                       


                      From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of geoff burrows
                      Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 2:49 AM
                      To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [new_distillers] Re: vm lm or cm

                       




                      Hi Jim,

                      You’re at the stage we all went through at the start.  That of information overload.  What you now need to do is settle on a known workable still design for the product you would like to produce.

                           Make it and learn from it because armed with this new found knowledge you will be better able to move forward in this new hobby.

                           But as sure as guns are made of metal you are going to make another still like we all have.  Get off the fence or you’ll get splinters in your butt.  Get down in the mucky and get your hands dirty and get making.

                           In order to make any particular item of your still, you need to have a fundamental understanding of how to make it, where it goes, also why and how it works long before you make it (more knowledge and experience). 

                           This is you learning and when it’s learnt (just like when you learnt the alphabet) you will automatically tuck it away and go on to the next lesson this makes the whole field of distilling less muddy and confusing.

                           It’s this basic practical knowledge you acquire and tuck away in the background which makes the next thing you do more understandable.  This practical experience will let you make sense of all you have read. 

                           Don’t try too hard getting it exactly right the first time because you probably won’t the first time (how many times did you fall down before you learned how to walk?) 

                           It’s the ability of knowing and learning from your own mistakes that makes you more knowledgeable and experienced.  Plus it’s all backed up with the theory of your own reading.

                      Settle on a design and make it and see how you go from there

                      Geoff    



                      No virus found in this message.
                      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                      Version: 2012.0.2176 / Virus Database: 2425/5000 - Release Date: 05/15/12


                    • mslovjoy
                      Wow Darren, went right to name calling, didn t you? Geoff says he s new, I didn t know that,so it s ok for him to answer as he did. Bravo his enthusiasm for a
                      Message 10 of 16 , Oct 12, 2013
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                        Wow Darren, went right to name calling, didn't you? Geoff says he's new, I didn't know that,so it's ok for him to answer as he did. Bravo his enthusiasm for a new endeavour.  On the other hand, your (or YOUR, as you would type it) writing, indicates either, that you (YOU) have serious, real knowledge, and experience in the hobby, or that you are simply pedantic. No matter to me, but neither bestows, upon you the right to cast aspersions on me, or anyone, for that matter. Maybe you should post your CV, so everyone would know how much honor you are entitled to, eh? In any event, your attitude is a real enthusiasm killer.



                        ---In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                        Geez dude, lighten up some?  Fact is the answer wasn't rude at all.  I'd say maybe 1 in a million newbies could possibly understand all the nuanced answers that could be given, and at that, many answers would be different because virtually none have even run all the possible management types, all their various modifications, and heck, even combinations.

                        Once you HAVE a rig, and have pondered it's use in action, a couple hundred light bulb go off, you will understand why it's important to start somewhere, almost anywhere before trying to understand everything. 

                        Home distillation is part art, part science.  To further that metaphor, how many scientists get their undergraduate degree without lots of hours in the lab?  Much less a phd with no lab time?  On the art side of the metaphor, how many artists create a masterpiece based only on art theory with zero prior experience with a particular media?  No matter how skilled in an art you are, could you write me a msg and tell me how to nail it perfectly my first try with no experience?  If I could send Einstein an email, would I be able to prove unified field theory my first day in a laboratory?  Maybe I'll email Jimmy Hendrix and ask him how to be a rock star....

                        Even the question is flawed and incomplete, only VM, CM and LM were asked.  What about RLM?  VM/LM combos?  Whatever abreviation was coined for the movable reflux coil?  Even within the categories asked, take VM for example, are we talking Nixon's original style with the VM take off well below the RC, in which case tails will be automatically reduced, or are we talking about the newer T designs which run as deep into tails as you care to take them?  Do YOU understand the physics behind that difference?  If so, then you probably don't need advice.  Does the VM in question have a heads trap above it?  It makes a HUGE difference!  Are we talking CM with cross tubes low in the column or a partial reflux condesnor?  The pros and cons of each management type depend on exactly which design you're talking about, and what you want out of it.  example; CM pro - easy to build; con - outdated design with inferior results.  This statement is true for some CM designs, and absolutely false for others.  Likewise, VM pro automatically reduces tails; con - minimum reflux rate is 1:1.  This sentence is absolutely true for some designs and absolutely false for others.

                        Moreover, do YOU care about water efficiency?  Are YOU ever going to recycle tails?  Do YOU enjoy a more hands on or automatic spirit run?  Are YOU fond of or can't stand late heads?  Can YOU even taste the difference between true neutral and run of the mill azeo ethanol?  Are you seeing how much YOU goes into what details even matter to YOU?

                        Nothing wrong with asking questions as a newb.  But you have to realize that those with more experience may not only have answers to your questions, but also advice that your original question is barking up the wrong tree.

                        Geoff's asnwer was a good one.  Pick a design proven by many to work well making the product you are interested in.  Spend some lab time learning the science or doing the art.  Then you'll have the experience and understanding necessary to decide on your next still, or to be perfectly happy with a good enough design to begin with.  Some master level distillers prefer each still type, none of them are wrong, it's their personal preferences, circumstances and exact applications that differ.  As a beginner you have no preference, circumstance nor application, so nobody can guide you much further than picking one of a few proven good designs, learning on it, and seeing what you learn and what you want.  It is good advice, and you are arrogant and ignorant to deride it.  Even the OP appreciated that while it might not have been a good direct answer, it was better advice.




                        On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 3:26 PM, <mslovjoy@...> wrote:
                         

                        Hi Jim, and all. Did anyone ever answer your still management question? If so, would you share the answer(s) with a fellow newbee?  I agree with Darrin, that Geoff's (NON) answer to you, is beautifully a composed "I don't know, go figure it out for yourself." Maybe it was innocent, and well intended, but how rude. I've had the answer,"I know, but it would take too long to tell you!" Come on guys, Jim, and I wouldn't do that to you, if YOU were new, and not wanting to re invent this wheel. No offense, simply a sad observation. Helpful replies welcomed, or flame on, if that's your need. 



                        ---In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, <dquinter@...> wrote:

                        Geoff GREAT post well said! I spent forever in information overload waiting trying to figure out what to build.....Ya just have to pick one and do it.

                         


                        From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of geoff burrows
                        Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 2:49 AM
                        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [new_distillers] Re: vm lm or cm

                         




                        Hi Jim,

                        You’re at the stage we all went through at the start.  That of information overload.  What you now need to do is settle on a known workable still design for the product you would like to produce.

                             Make it and learn from it because armed with this new found knowledge you will be better able to move forward in this new hobby.

                             But as sure as guns are made of metal you are going to make another still like we all have.  Get off the fence or you’ll get splinters in your butt.  Get down in the mucky and get your hands dirty and get making.

                             In order to make any particular item of your still, you need to have a fundamental understanding of how to make it, where it goes, also why and how it works long before you make it (more knowledge and experience). 

                             This is you learning and when it’s learnt (just like when you learnt the alphabet) you will automatically tuck it away and go on to the next lesson this makes the whole field of distilling less muddy and confusing.

                             It’s this basic practical knowledge you acquire and tuck away in the background which makes the next thing you do more understandable.  This practical experience will let you make sense of all you have read. 

                             Don’t try too hard getting it exactly right the first time because you probably won’t the first time (how many times did you fall down before you learned how to walk?) 

                             It’s the ability of knowing and learning from your own mistakes that makes you more knowledgeable and experienced.  Plus it’s all backed up with the theory of your own reading.

                        Settle on a design and make it and see how you go from there

                        Geoff    



                        No virus found in this message.
                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                        Version: 2012.0.2176 / Virus Database: 2425/5000 - Release Date: 05/15/12


                      • Zapata Vive
                        Are you talking to me? It s not clear, I m zapata, not Darren, but you seem to be replying to me. Assuming you are, seriously you don t like my name calling?
                        Message 11 of 16 , Oct 13, 2013
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                          Are you talking to me?  It's not clear, I'm zapata, not Darren, but you seem to be replying to me.  Assuming you are, seriously you don't like my name calling?  You call Geoff rude, while contributing nothing.  I call you arrogant, while offering real advice and you have a problem with it?  Whatever on that point, I'm sure you'll get over it, I know I am.

                          You seem to have forgiven Geoff for his rudeness, can you forgive me and look past that one sentence, and read the rest of the advice?  Start with a proven design, and go from there.  I even described why it's so hard to give the exact answer you asked for. 

                          But I'll try it again.  For a beginner choosing a first still, the management technique is pretty much irrelevant to other factors.  It's like asking pros and cons of diesel vs gas engines.  With no more info than that there are only differences, not pros and cons.  The pros/cons are different if we are talking about backhoes or VW's, 1980's VWs or 2014 VW's, etc. 
                          Focus on these first.
                          1.  What product do you want to make, flavored spirits, vodka, or if both, which one do you want it to do better?
                          2.  Pick a specific design proven to make that product.
                          3.  Focus on that design, and see if it fits in your setting.  (Is it too tall, do you need to use a small pump you already have but the design requires a bigger pump, does the build look more difficult to you, does it fit your budget, are the materials available locally etc)
                          4.  Read the designers info on the still, does anything they say about it seem unnappealing to you?  Read build threads for that design, new builders usually talk about their first few runs in build threads, does anything they mention sound unappealing to you?  Is there a design modification around it, or is it inherrent in the design?  Do other proven designs seem to have the same type of reports?
                          5.  If in 3 and 4 you have concerns about a specific design and it's detail, ask a specific question, those with experience would love to answer what they can.
                          6.  It wouldn't be a bad idea to completely skip items 3-5, and just build a proven design.  You'll be making damn good liquor while you learn 2-5 hands on, and you can drink your damn good liquor while reading and studying more about the hobby.

                          I actually tried to actually draft a specific answer to the pros and cons question.  But I couldn't come up with anything better than Bob's post in this thread a year and a half ago.  Any more details than he put in only apply to some designs in each category, or are more personal preference than pro/con.

                          Is that helpful?  If not, instead of trying to answer a universal question ranking just still management types, I'd be glad to help you sort through various designs to see what suits you personally.  I don't consider myself an expert, but I do have a variety of stills, and enjoy nerding out in all of my hobbies, so I can at least point you the direction of what you are looking for or share my personal preferences.  But I'd need to know your priorities in what you want out of a still first.  Economy of build, ease of build, product quality (what does that mean to you?), esthetics, do you have physical limitations etc.



                          On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 9:12 PM, <mslovjoy@...> wrote:
                           

                          Wow Darren, went right to name calling, didn't you? Geoff says he's new, I didn't know that,so it's ok for him to answer as he did. Bravo his enthusiasm for a new endeavour.  On the other hand, your (or YOUR, as you would type it) writing, indicates either, that you (YOU) have serious, real knowledge, and experience in the hobby, or that you are simply pedantic. No matter to me, but neither bestows, upon you the right to cast aspersions on me, or anyone, for that matter. Maybe you should post your CV, so everyone would know how much honor you are entitled to, eh? In any event, your attitude is a real enthusiasm killer.



                          ---In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                          Geez dude, lighten up some?  Fact is the answer wasn't rude at all.  I'd say maybe 1 in a million newbies could possibly understand all the nuanced answers that could be given, and at that, many answers would be different because virtually none have even run all the possible management types, all their various modifications, and heck, even combinations.

                          Once you HAVE a rig, and have pondered it's use in action, a couple hundred light bulb go off, you will understand why it's important to start somewhere, almost anywhere before trying to understand everything. 

                          Home distillation is part art, part science.  To further that metaphor, how many scientists get their undergraduate degree without lots of hours in the lab?  Much less a phd with no lab time?  On the art side of the metaphor, how many artists create a masterpiece based only on art theory with zero prior experience with a particular media?  No matter how skilled in an art you are, could you write me a msg and tell me how to nail it perfectly my first try with no experience?  If I could send Einstein an email, would I be able to prove unified field theory my first day in a laboratory?  Maybe I'll email Jimmy Hendrix and ask him how to be a rock star....

                          Even the question is flawed and incomplete, only VM, CM and LM were asked.  What about RLM?  VM/LM combos?  Whatever abreviation was coined for the movable reflux coil?  Even within the categories asked, take VM for example, are we talking Nixon's original style with the VM take off well below the RC, in which case tails will be automatically reduced, or are we talking about the newer T designs which run as deep into tails as you care to take them?  Do YOU understand the physics behind that difference?  If so, then you probably don't need advice.  Does the VM in question have a heads trap above it?  It makes a HUGE difference!  Are we talking CM with cross tubes low in the column or a partial reflux condesnor?  The pros and cons of each management type depend on exactly which design you're talking about, and what you want out of it.  example; CM pro - easy to build; con - outdated design with inferior results.  This statement is true for some CM designs, and absolutely false for others.  Likewise, VM pro automatically reduces tails; con - minimum reflux rate is 1:1.  This sentence is absolutely true for some designs and absolutely false for others.

                          Moreover, do YOU care about water efficiency?  Are YOU ever going to recycle tails?  Do YOU enjoy a more hands on or automatic spirit run?  Are YOU fond of or can't stand late heads?  Can YOU even taste the difference between true neutral and run of the mill azeo ethanol?  Are you seeing how much YOU goes into what details even matter to YOU?

                          Nothing wrong with asking questions as a newb.  But you have to realize that those with more experience may not only have answers to your questions, but also advice that your original question is barking up the wrong tree.

                          Geoff's asnwer was a good one.  Pick a design proven by many to work well making the product you are interested in.  Spend some lab time learning the science or doing the art.  Then you'll have the experience and understanding necessary to decide on your next still, or to be perfectly happy with a good enough design to begin with.  Some master level distillers prefer each still type, none of them are wrong, it's their personal preferences, circumstances and exact applications that differ.  As a beginner you have no preference, circumstance nor application, so nobody can guide you much further than picking one of a few proven good designs, learning on it, and seeing what you learn and what you want.  It is good advice, and you are arrogant and ignorant to deride it.  Even the OP appreciated that while it might not have been a good direct answer, it was better advice.




                          On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 3:26 PM, <mslovjoy@...> wrote:
                           

                          Hi Jim, and all. Did anyone ever answer your still management question? If so, would you share the answer(s) with a fellow newbee?  I agree with Darrin, that Geoff's (NON) answer to you, is beautifully a composed "I don't know, go figure it out for yourself." Maybe it was innocent, and well intended, but how rude. I've had the answer,"I know, but it would take too long to tell you!" Come on guys, Jim, and I wouldn't do that to you, if YOU were new, and not wanting to re invent this wheel. No offense, simply a sad observation. Helpful replies welcomed, or flame on, if that's your need. 



                          ---In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, <dquinter@...> wrote:

                          Geoff GREAT post well said! I spent forever in information overload waiting trying to figure out what to build.....Ya just have to pick one and do it.

                           


                          From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of geoff burrows
                          Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 2:49 AM
                          To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [new_distillers] Re: vm lm or cm

                           




                          Hi Jim,

                          You’re at the stage we all went through at the start.  That of information overload.  What you now need to do is settle on a known workable still design for the product you would like to produce.

                               Make it and learn from it because armed with this new found knowledge you will be better able to move forward in this new hobby.

                               But as sure as guns are made of metal you are going to make another still like we all have.  Get off the fence or you’ll get splinters in your butt.  Get down in the mucky and get your hands dirty and get making.

                               In order to make any particular item of your still, you need to have a fundamental understanding of how to make it, where it goes, also why and how it works long before you make it (more knowledge and experience). 

                               This is you learning and when it’s learnt (just like when you learnt the alphabet) you will automatically tuck it away and go on to the next lesson this makes the whole field of distilling less muddy and confusing.

                               It’s this basic practical knowledge you acquire and tuck away in the background which makes the next thing you do more understandable.  This practical experience will let you make sense of all you have read. 

                               Don’t try too hard getting it exactly right the first time because you probably won’t the first time (how many times did you fall down before you learned how to walk?) 

                               It’s the ability of knowing and learning from your own mistakes that makes you more knowledgeable and experienced.  Plus it’s all backed up with the theory of your own reading.

                          Settle on a design and make it and see how you go from there

                          Geoff    



                          No virus found in this message.
                          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                          Version: 2012.0.2176 / Virus Database: 2425/5000 - Release Date: 05/15/12



                        • mslovjoy
                          First off, I find this new Yahoo format somewhat confusing, and less than useful. I did confuse the names. Yahoo was good when I last used it. Not so much,
                          Message 12 of 16 , Oct 13, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment

                            First off, I find this new Yahoo format somewhat confusing, and less than useful. I did confuse the names.  Yahoo was good when I last used it. Not so much, now.

                              Now, to wrap up this silliness , yes Zap, I thought I was addressing my attacker. Can I forgive you the name calling? Sure, done. We, clearly, have philosophical difference(s) as to teaching, which I consider answering the questions of the less informed, to be.  Geoff, as you said (1 in a million), likely has not garnered sufficient depth of knowledge in this hobby to answer better than he did. I do not minimize the value of raw encouragement, to the newcomer, but encouragement, and information, bear little relationship to one-another. In my experience, a PhD (you, maybe), makes the best possible teacher, as they can answer any question, hardest to simplest, so that anyone can understand the answer. I, and other noobs, would be the substitute teachers. Full of energy, but with little direction. Most types of Engineers (even the train kind) would never tell someone to go try it, and see what happens. Fortunately, this is a low risk hobby. No one gets hurt. 

                               As for myself, I'll keep reading, and stop looking for short cuts. Everything has been answered, somewhere. Sorry for the confusion.



                            ---In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, <zapatavive@...> wrote:

                            Are you talking to me?  It's not clear, I'm zapata, not Darren, but you seem to be replying to me.  Assuming you are, seriously you don't like my name calling?  You call Geoff rude, while contributing nothing.  I call you arrogant, while offering real advice and you have a problem with it?  Whatever on that point, I'm sure you'll get over it, I know I am.

                            You seem to have forgiven Geoff for his rudeness, can you forgive me and look past that one sentence, and read the rest of the advice?  Start with a proven design, and go from there.  I even described why it's so hard to give the exact answer you asked for. 

                            But I'll try it again.  For a beginner choosing a first still, the management technique is pretty much irrelevant to other factors.  It's like asking pros and cons of diesel vs gas engines.  With no more info than that there are only differences, not pros and cons.  The pros/cons are different if we are talking about backhoes or VW's, 1980's VWs or 2014 VW's, etc. 
                            Focus on these first.
                            1.  What product do you want to make, flavored spirits, vodka, or if both, which one do you want it to do better?
                            2.  Pick a specific design proven to make that product.
                            3.  Focus on that design, and see if it fits in your setting.  (Is it too tall, do you need to use a small pump you already have but the design requires a bigger pump, does the build look more difficult to you, does it fit your budget, are the materials available locally etc)
                            4.  Read the designers info on the still, does anything they say about it seem unnappealing to you?  Read build threads for that design, new builders usually talk about their first few runs in build threads, does anything they mention sound unappealing to you?  Is there a design modification around it, or is it inherrent in the design?  Do other proven designs seem to have the same type of reports?
                            5.  If in 3 and 4 you have concerns about a specific design and it's detail, ask a specific question, those with experience would love to answer what they can.
                            6.  It wouldn't be a bad idea to completely skip items 3-5, and just build a proven design.  You'll be making damn good liquor while you learn 2-5 hands on, and you can drink your damn good liquor while reading and studying more about the hobby.

                            I actually tried to actually draft a specific answer to the pros and cons question.  But I couldn't come up with anything better than Bob's post in this thread a year and a half ago.  Any more details than he put in only apply to some designs in each category, or are more personal preference than pro/con.

                            Is that helpful?  If not, instead of trying to answer a universal question ranking just still management types, I'd be glad to help you sort through various designs to see what suits you personally.  I don't consider myself an expert, but I do have a variety of stills, and enjoy nerding out in all of my hobbies, so I can at least point you the direction of what you are looking for or share my personal preferences.  But I'd need to know your priorities in what you want out of a still first.  Economy of build, ease of build, product quality (what does that mean to you?), esthetics, do you have physical limitations etc.



                            On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 9:12 PM, <mslovjoy@...> wrote:
                             

                            Wow Darren, went right to name calling, didn't you? Geoff says he's new, I didn't know that,so it's ok for him to answer as he did. Bravo his enthusiasm for a new endeavour.  On the other hand, your (or YOUR, as you would type it) writing, indicates either, that you (YOU) have serious, real knowledge, and experience in the hobby, or that you are simply pedantic. No matter to me, but neither bestows, upon you the right to cast aspersions on me, or anyone, for that matter. Maybe you should post your CV, so everyone would know how much honor you are entitled to, eh? In any event, your attitude is a real enthusiasm killer.



                            ---In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                            Geez dude, lighten up some?  Fact is the answer wasn't rude at all.  I'd say maybe 1 in a million newbies could possibly understand all the nuanced answers that could be given, and at that, many answers would be different because virtually none have even run all the possible management types, all their various modifications, and heck, even combinations.

                            Once you HAVE a rig, and have pondered it's use in action, a couple hundred light bulb go off, you will understand why it's important to start somewhere, almost anywhere before trying to understand everything. 

                            Home distillation is part art, part science.  To further that metaphor, how many scientists get their undergraduate degree without lots of hours in the lab?  Much less a phd with no lab time?  On the art side of the metaphor, how many artists create a masterpiece based only on art theory with zero prior experience with a particular media?  No matter how skilled in an art you are, could you write me a msg and tell me how to nail it perfectly my first try with no experience?  If I could send Einstein an email, would I be able to prove unified field theory my first day in a laboratory?  Maybe I'll email Jimmy Hendrix and ask him how to be a rock star....

                            Even the question is flawed and incomplete, only VM, CM and LM were asked.  What about RLM?  VM/LM combos?  Whatever abreviation was coined for the movable reflux coil?  Even within the categories asked, take VM for example, are we talking Nixon's original style with the VM take off well below the RC, in which case tails will be automatically reduced, or are we talking about the newer T designs which run as deep into tails as you care to take them?  Do YOU understand the physics behind that difference?  If so, then you probably don't need advice.  Does the VM in question have a heads trap above it?  It makes a HUGE difference!  Are we talking CM with cross tubes low in the column or a partial reflux condesnor?  The pros and cons of each management type depend on exactly which design you're talking about, and what you want out of it.  example; CM pro - easy to build; con - outdated design with inferior results.  This statement is true for some CM designs, and absolutely false for others.  Likewise, VM pro automatically reduces tails; con - minimum reflux rate is 1:1.  This sentence is absolutely true for some designs and absolutely false for others.

                            Moreover, do YOU care about water efficiency?  Are YOU ever going to recycle tails?  Do YOU enjoy a more hands on or automatic spirit run?  Are YOU fond of or can't stand late heads?  Can YOU even taste the difference between true neutral and run of the mill azeo ethanol?  Are you seeing how much YOU goes into what details even matter to YOU?

                            Nothing wrong with asking questions as a newb.  But you have to realize that those with more experience may not only have answers to your questions, but also advice that your original question is barking up the wrong tree.

                            Geoff's asnwer was a good one.  Pick a design proven by many to work well making the product you are interested in.  Spend some lab time learning the science or doing the art.  Then you'll have the experience and understanding necessary to decide on your next still, or to be perfectly happy with a good enough design to begin with.  Some master level distillers prefer each still type, none of them are wrong, it's their personal preferences, circumstances and exact applications that differ.  As a beginner you have no preference, circumstance nor application, so nobody can guide you much further than picking one of a few proven good designs, learning on it, and seeing what you learn and what you want.  It is good advice, and you are arrogant and ignorant to deride it.  Even the OP appreciated that while it might not have been a good direct answer, it was better advice.




                            On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 3:26 PM, <mslovjoy@...> wrote:
                             

                            Hi Jim, and all. Did anyone ever answer your still management question? If so, would you share the answer(s) with a fellow newbee?  I agree with Darrin, that Geoff's (NON) answer to you, is beautifully a composed "I don't know, go figure it out for yourself." Maybe it was innocent, and well intended, but how rude. I've had the answer,"I know, but it would take too long to tell you!" Come on guys, Jim, and I wouldn't do that to you, if YOU were new, and not wanting to re invent this wheel. No offense, simply a sad observation. Helpful replies welcomed, or flame on, if that's your need. 



                            ---In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, <dquinter@...> wrote:

                            Geoff GREAT post well said! I spent forever in information overload waiting trying to figure out what to build.....Ya just have to pick one and do it.

                             


                            From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of geoff burrows
                            Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 2:49 AM
                            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [new_distillers] Re: vm lm or cm

                             




                            Hi Jim,

                            You’re at the stage we all went through at the start.  That of information overload.  What you now need to do is settle on a known workable still design for the product you would like to produce.

                                 Make it and learn from it because armed with this new found knowledge you will be better able to move forward in this new hobby.

                                 But as sure as guns are made of metal you are going to make another still like we all have.  Get off the fence or you’ll get splinters in your butt.  Get down in the mucky and get your hands dirty and get making.

                                 In order to make any particular item of your still, you need to have a fundamental understanding of how to make it, where it goes, also why and how it works long before you make it (more knowledge and experience). 

                                 This is you learning and when it’s learnt (just like when you learnt the alphabet) you will automatically tuck it away and go on to the next lesson this makes the whole field of distilling less muddy and confusing.

                                 It’s this basic practical knowledge you acquire and tuck away in the background which makes the next thing you do more understandable.  This practical experience will let you make sense of all you have read. 

                                 Don’t try too hard getting it exactly right the first time because you probably won’t the first time (how many times did you fall down before you learned how to walk?) 

                                 It’s the ability of knowing and learning from your own mistakes that makes you more knowledgeable and experienced.  Plus it’s all backed up with the theory of your own reading.

                            Settle on a design and make it and see how you go from there

                            Geoff    



                            No virus found in this message.
                            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                            Version: 2012.0.2176 / Virus Database: 2425/5000 - Release Date: 05/15/12



                          • Zapata Vive
                            Dude, you do see where I have repeatedly offered you not only sound advice, but personal, tailored to you, specific guidance, right? And you still criticize
                            Message 13 of 16 , Oct 13, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Dude, you do see where I have repeatedly offered you not only sound advice, but personal, tailored to you, specific guidance, right?  And you still criticize my "teaching"?  

                              I feel like you aren't reading what I write, just skimming it and firing back.

                              I never said Geoff didn't understand well enough to answer any better.  My opinion, being someone who understands, owns, builds, uses a variety of stills and is well read on the current state of hobby distilling, his answer is a good one.  I don't know Geoff or how much he knows or doesnt.  It's regardless, because his answer in this case was solid.  You as someone who obviously doesn't have as much knowledge or experience are the one saying it's not a good answer, even though you were gracious enough to excuse him for it.

                              You are distorting my advice if you think I've suggested you just go try distilliing clueless.  I do suggest getting hands on experience quickly, but not blindly.  Reading the homedistiller.org website from front to back several times is a good place for anyone to start.  If you want to ignore the advice to get started on a proven design, fine, I'll amend it to reading homedistiller, making fine spirits, the complete distiller, and designing and building automatic stills.  At that point you will need to do a lot more group and forum research to catch up with what has been done since publication.  Then, since you will still lack any personal experience, you can come and ask specific questions on our experiences.  Maybe a year later you can finally get started in the hobby.  Nothing wrong with that approach if you're not really interested in getting started anyway.

                              I also haven't told you that you need look elsewhere for any particular answer, just accept the possibility that your question itself might be misguided.

                              Based on my reading and experience, the only complete set of pros and cons regarding still management methods can only be vague near to the point of uselessness.  (I've referenced a good example posting earlier in this thread)  And you as someone who apparently doesn't understand and use these devices keep insisting that some better teacher can give you a better answer.  Maybe you're right, but I've never seen it.  Every attempt I have seen does not take into account all the current variations in the different methods.  I've even given you examples of this.  Feel free to post up any more detailed set of pros and cons you can find, I'd be glad to illustrate to you what I mean, maybe even learn something new myself.

                              Or, if this theoretical back and forth has gotten as frustrating for you as it has for me, feel free to take me (and the collective knowledge of this entire group) up on our offer to give you some personalized guidance.  But please, take it for what it is, fellow hobbyists offering to help each other out, and keep the criticism of how well we do it to a minimum.


                              On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 4:45 PM, <mslovjoy@...> wrote:
                               

                              First off, I find this new Yahoo format somewhat confusing, and less than useful. I did confuse the names.  Yahoo was good when I last used it. Not so much, now.

                                Now, to wrap up this silliness , yes Zap, I thought I was addressing my attacker. Can I forgive you the name calling? Sure, done. We, clearly, have philosophical difference(s) as to teaching, which I consider answering the questions of the less informed, to be.  Geoff, as you said (1 in a million), likely has not garnered sufficient depth of knowledge in this hobby to answer better than he did. I do not minimize the value of raw encouragement, to the newcomer, but encouragement, and information, bear little relationship to one-another. In my experience, a PhD (you, maybe), makes the best possible teacher, as they can answer any question, hardest to simplest, so that anyone can understand the answer. I, and other noobs, would be the substitute teachers. Full of energy, but with little direction. Most types of Engineers (even the train kind) would never tell someone to go try it, and see what happens. Fortunately, this is a low risk hobby. No one gets hurt. 

                                 As for myself, I'll keep reading, and stop looking for short cuts. Everything has been answered, somewhere. Sorry for the confusion.



                              ---In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, <zapatavive@...> wrote:

                              Are you talking to me?  It's not clear, I'm zapata, not Darren, but you seem to be replying to me.  Assuming you are, seriously you don't like my name calling?  You call Geoff rude, while contributing nothing.  I call you arrogant, while offering real advice and you have a problem with it?  Whatever on that point, I'm sure you'll get over it, I know I am.

                              You seem to have forgiven Geoff for his rudeness, can you forgive me and look past that one sentence, and read the rest of the advice?  Start with a proven design, and go from there.  I even described why it's so hard to give the exact answer you asked for. 

                              But I'll try it again.  For a beginner choosing a first still, the management technique is pretty much irrelevant to other factors.  It's like asking pros and cons of diesel vs gas engines.  With no more info than that there are only differences, not pros and cons.  The pros/cons are different if we are talking about backhoes or VW's, 1980's VWs or 2014 VW's, etc. 
                              Focus on these first.
                              1.  What product do you want to make, flavored spirits, vodka, or if both, which one do you want it to do better?
                              2.  Pick a specific design proven to make that product.
                              3.  Focus on that design, and see if it fits in your setting.  (Is it too tall, do you need to use a small pump you already have but the design requires a bigger pump, does the build look more difficult to you, does it fit your budget, are the materials available locally etc)
                              4.  Read the designers info on the still, does anything they say about it seem unnappealing to you?  Read build threads for that design, new builders usually talk about their first few runs in build threads, does anything they mention sound unappealing to you?  Is there a design modification around it, or is it inherrent in the design?  Do other proven designs seem to have the same type of reports?
                              5.  If in 3 and 4 you have concerns about a specific design and it's detail, ask a specific question, those with experience would love to answer what they can.
                              6.  It wouldn't be a bad idea to completely skip items 3-5, and just build a proven design.  You'll be making damn good liquor while you learn 2-5 hands on, and you can drink your damn good liquor while reading and studying more about the hobby.

                              I actually tried to actually draft a specific answer to the pros and cons question.  But I couldn't come up with anything better than Bob's post in this thread a year and a half ago.  Any more details than he put in only apply to some designs in each category, or are more personal preference than pro/con.

                              Is that helpful?  If not, instead of trying to answer a universal question ranking just still management types, I'd be glad to help you sort through various designs to see what suits you personally.  I don't consider myself an expert, but I do have a variety of stills, and enjoy nerding out in all of my hobbies, so I can at least point you the direction of what you are looking for or share my personal preferences.  But I'd need to know your priorities in what you want out of a still first.  Economy of build, ease of build, product quality (what does that mean to you?), esthetics, do you have physical limitations etc.



                              On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 9:12 PM, <mslovjoy@...> wrote:
                               

                              Wow Darren, went right to name calling, didn't you? Geoff says he's new, I didn't know that,so it's ok for him to answer as he did. Bravo his enthusiasm for a new endeavour.  On the other hand, your (or YOUR, as you would type it) writing, indicates either, that you (YOU) have serious, real knowledge, and experience in the hobby, or that you are simply pedantic. No matter to me, but neither bestows, upon you the right to cast aspersions on me, or anyone, for that matter. Maybe you should post your CV, so everyone would know how much honor you are entitled to, eh? In any event, your attitude is a real enthusiasm killer.



                              ---In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                              Geez dude, lighten up some?  Fact is the answer wasn't rude at all.  I'd say maybe 1 in a million newbies could possibly understand all the nuanced answers that could be given, and at that, many answers would be different because virtually none have even run all the possible management types, all their various modifications, and heck, even combinations.

                              Once you HAVE a rig, and have pondered it's use in action, a couple hundred light bulb go off, you will understand why it's important to start somewhere, almost anywhere before trying to understand everything. 

                              Home distillation is part art, part science.  To further that metaphor, how many scientists get their undergraduate degree without lots of hours in the lab?  Much less a phd with no lab time?  On the art side of the metaphor, how many artists create a masterpiece based only on art theory with zero prior experience with a particular media?  No matter how skilled in an art you are, could you write me a msg and tell me how to nail it perfectly my first try with no experience?  If I could send Einstein an email, would I be able to prove unified field theory my first day in a laboratory?  Maybe I'll email Jimmy Hendrix and ask him how to be a rock star....

                              Even the question is flawed and incomplete, only VM, CM and LM were asked.  What about RLM?  VM/LM combos?  Whatever abreviation was coined for the movable reflux coil?  Even within the categories asked, take VM for example, are we talking Nixon's original style with the VM take off well below the RC, in which case tails will be automatically reduced, or are we talking about the newer T designs which run as deep into tails as you care to take them?  Do YOU understand the physics behind that difference?  If so, then you probably don't need advice.  Does the VM in question have a heads trap above it?  It makes a HUGE difference!  Are we talking CM with cross tubes low in the column or a partial reflux condesnor?  The pros and cons of each management type depend on exactly which design you're talking about, and what you want out of it.  example; CM pro - easy to build; con - outdated design with inferior results.  This statement is true for some CM designs, and absolutely false for others.  Likewise, VM pro automatically reduces tails; con - minimum reflux rate is 1:1.  This sentence is absolutely true for some designs and absolutely false for others.

                              Moreover, do YOU care about water efficiency?  Are YOU ever going to recycle tails?  Do YOU enjoy a more hands on or automatic spirit run?  Are YOU fond of or can't stand late heads?  Can YOU even taste the difference between true neutral and run of the mill azeo ethanol?  Are you seeing how much YOU goes into what details even matter to YOU?

                              Nothing wrong with asking questions as a newb.  But you have to realize that those with more experience may not only have answers to your questions, but also advice that your original question is barking up the wrong tree.

                              Geoff's asnwer was a good one.  Pick a design proven by many to work well making the product you are interested in.  Spend some lab time learning the science or doing the art.  Then you'll have the experience and understanding necessary to decide on your next still, or to be perfectly happy with a good enough design to begin with.  Some master level distillers prefer each still type, none of them are wrong, it's their personal preferences, circumstances and exact applications that differ.  As a beginner you have no preference, circumstance nor application, so nobody can guide you much further than picking one of a few proven good designs, learning on it, and seeing what you learn and what you want.  It is good advice, and you are arrogant and ignorant to deride it.  Even the OP appreciated that while it might not have been a good direct answer, it was better advice.




                              On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 3:26 PM, <mslovjoy@...> wrote:
                               

                              Hi Jim, and all. Did anyone ever answer your still management question? If so, would you share the answer(s) with a fellow newbee?  I agree with Darrin, that Geoff's (NON) answer to you, is beautifully a composed "I don't know, go figure it out for yourself." Maybe it was innocent, and well intended, but how rude. I've had the answer,"I know, but it would take too long to tell you!" Come on guys, Jim, and I wouldn't do that to you, if YOU were new, and not wanting to re invent this wheel. No offense, simply a sad observation. Helpful replies welcomed, or flame on, if that's your need. 



                              ---In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, <dquinter@...> wrote:

                              Geoff GREAT post well said! I spent forever in information overload waiting trying to figure out what to build.....Ya just have to pick one and do it.

                               


                              From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of geoff burrows
                              Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 2:49 AM
                              To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [new_distillers] Re: vm lm or cm

                               




                              Hi Jim,

                              You’re at the stage we all went through at the start.  That of information overload.  What you now need to do is settle on a known workable still design for the product you would like to produce.

                                   Make it and learn from it because armed with this new found knowledge you will be better able to move forward in this new hobby.

                                   But as sure as guns are made of metal you are going to make another still like we all have.  Get off the fence or you’ll get splinters in your butt.  Get down in the mucky and get your hands dirty and get making.

                                   In order to make any particular item of your still, you need to have a fundamental understanding of how to make it, where it goes, also why and how it works long before you make it (more knowledge and experience). 

                                   This is you learning and when it’s learnt (just like when you learnt the alphabet) you will automatically tuck it away and go on to the next lesson this makes the whole field of distilling less muddy and confusing.

                                   It’s this basic practical knowledge you acquire and tuck away in the background which makes the next thing you do more understandable.  This practical experience will let you make sense of all you have read. 

                                   Don’t try too hard getting it exactly right the first time because you probably won’t the first time (how many times did you fall down before you learned how to walk?) 

                                   It’s the ability of knowing and learning from your own mistakes that makes you more knowledgeable and experienced.  Plus it’s all backed up with the theory of your own reading.

                              Settle on a design and make it and see how you go from there

                              Geoff    



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                            • TODP
                              OMG!!!! CAN T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG??? Go brew some drink and enjoy!! Sometime I sit and read and just like ANY other group, you got your leaders and yer
                              Message 14 of 16 , Oct 13, 2013
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                                OMG!!!!  CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG???  Go brew some drink and enjoy!! Sometime I sit and read and just like ANY other group, you got your leaders and yer followers!! AND THEN THE INNER GROUP!! If your not one of the inner group your not well liked!!

                                Just as some of my posts have NEVER seen the page .. DO I CARE!! HELL NO!! Just like this post I bet will NEVER be seen!!

                                I really don't care! I took what I could, I LEARNED BY TRIAL AND ERROR!! Lots of ERROR!! But you know what? I have made and ENJOYED 28 batches so far and I have mastered what I think as well as friends a good elixir.. ALL THAT I WANTED...  AND I LEARNED IT FROM THIS GROUP!!  Not from the arguing and bitching!!!

                                  I do my own thing and TRY to post my advice BUT!! It seams like it is NEVER GOOD ENOUGH!!!   Rather it seems that some are to be hippocrates running this page!
                                MY WAY OR THE HI WAY!!  FINE!!

                                I really don't like to see this CRAP! on a great page.. IT RUINS WHAT IT WAS ALL STARTED FOR!!!

                                GO AHEAD...  BAN ME FROM POSTING!!   If you do... IT JUST PROVES MY POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


                                On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 7:11 PM, Zapata Vive wrote:

                                   Dude, you do see where I have repeatedly offered you not only sound advice, but personal, tailored to you, specific guidance, right?  And you still criticize my "teaching"?  


                                I feel like you aren't reading what I write, just skimming it and firing back.


                                I never said Geoff didn't understand well enough to answer any better.  My opinion, being someone who understands, owns, builds, uses a variety of stills and is well read on the current state of hobby distilling, his answer is a good one.  I don't know Geoff or how much he knows or doesnt.  It's regardless, because his answer in this case was solid.  You as someone who obviously doesn't have as much knowledge or experience are the one saying it's not a good answer, even though you were gracious enough to excuse him for it.


                                You are distorting my advice if you think I've suggested you just go try distilliing clueless.  I do suggest getting hands on experience quickly, but not blindly.  Reading the homedistiller.orgwebsite from front to back several times is a good place for anyone to start.  If you want to ignore the advice to get started on a proven design, fine, I'll amend it to reading homedistiller, making fine spirits, the complete distiller, and designing and building automatic stills.  At that point you will need to do a lot more group and forum research to catch up with what has been done since publication.  Then, since you will still lack any personal experience, you can come and ask specific questions on our experiences.  Maybe a year later you can finally get started in the hobby.  Nothing wrong with that approach if you're not really interested in getting started anyway.

                                I also haven't told you that you need look elsewhere for any particular answer, just accept the possibility that your question itself might be misguided.

                                Based on my reading and experience, the only complete set of pros and cons regarding still management methods can only be vague near to the point of uselessness.  (I've referenced a good example posting earlier in this thread)  And you as someone who apparently doesn't understand and use these devices keep insisting that some better teacher can give you a better answer.  Maybe you're right, but I've never seen it.  Every attempt I have seen does not take into account all the current variations in the different methods.  I've even given you examples of this.  Feel free to post up any more detailed set of pros and cons you can find, I'd be glad to illustrate to you what I mean, maybe even learn something new myself.

                                Or, if this theoretical back and forth has gotten as frustrating for you as it has for me, feel free to take me (and the collective knowledge of this entire group) up on our offer to give you some personalized guidance.  But please, take it for what it is, fellow hobbyists offering to help each other out, and keep the criticism of how well we do it to a minimum.


                                On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 4:45 PM, < mslovjoy@...> wrote:
                                 
                                First off, I find this new Yahoo format somewhat confusing, and less than useful. I did confuse the names.  Yahoo was good when I last used it. Not so much, now.
                                  Now, to wrap  up  this silliness , yes Zap, I thought I was addressing my attacker. Can I forgive you the name calling? Sure, done. We, clearly, have philosophical difference(s) as to teaching, which I consider answering the questions of the less informed, to be.  Geoff, as you said (1 in a million), likely has not garnered sufficient depth of knowledge in this hobby to answer better than he did. I do not minimize the value of raw encouragement, to the newcomer, but encouragement, and information, bear little relationship to one-another. In my experience, a PhD (you, maybe), makes the best possible teacher, as they can answer any question, hardest to simplest, so that anyone can understand the answer. I, and other noobs, would be the substitute teachers. Full of energy, but with little direction. Most types of Engineers (even the train kind) would never tell someone to go try it, and see what happens. Fortunately, this is a low risk hobby. No one gets hurt. 
                                   As for myself, I'll keep reading, and stop looking for short cuts. Everything has been answered, somewhere. Sorry for the confusion.


                                ---In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, <zapatavive@...> wrote:

                                Are you talking to me?  It's not clear, I'm zapata, not Darren, but you seem to be replying to me.  Assuming you are, seriously you don't like my name calling?  You call Geoff rude, while contributing nothing.  I call you arrogant, while offering real advice and you have a problem with it?  Whatever on that point, I'm sure you'll get over it, I know I am.

                                You seem to have forgiven Geoff for his rudeness, can you forgive me and look past that one sentence, and read the rest of the advice?  Start with a proven design, and go from there.  I even described why it's so hard to give the exact answer you asked for. 

                                But I'll try it again.  For a beginner choosing a first still, the management technique is pretty much irrelevant to other factors.  It's like asking pros and cons of diesel vs gas engines.  With no more  info than that there are only differences, not pros and cons.  The  pros/cons are different if we are talking about backhoes or VW's, 1980's  VWs or 2014 VW's, etc. 
                                Focus on these first.
                                1.  What product do you want to make, flavored spirits, vodka, or if both, which one do you want it to do better?
                                2.  Pick a specific design proven to make that product.
                                3.  Focus on that design, and see if it fits in your setting.  (Is it too tall, do you need to use a small pump you already have but the design requires a bigger pump, does the build look more difficult to you, does it fit your budget, are the materials available locally etc)
                                4.  Read the designers info on the still, does anything they say about it seem unnappealing to you?  Read build threads for that design, new builders usually talk about their first few runs in build threads, does anything they mention sound unappealing to you?  Is there a design modification around it, or is it inherrent in the design?  Do other proven designs seem to have the same type of reports?
                                5.  If in 3 and 4 you have concerns about a specific design and it's detail, ask a specific question, those with experience would love to answer what they can.
                                6.  It wouldn't be a bad idea to completely skip items 3-5, and just build a proven design.  You'll be making damn good liquor while you learn 2-5 hands on, and you can drink your damn good liquor while reading and studying more about the hobby.

                                I actually tried to actually draft a specific answer to the pros and cons question.  But I couldn't come up with anything better than Bob's post in this thread a year and a half ago.  Any more details than he put in only apply to some designs in each category, or are more personal preference than pro/con.

                                Is that helpful?  If not, instead of trying to answer a universal question ranking just still management types, I'd be glad to help you sort through various designs to see what suits you personally.  I don't consider myself an expert, but I do have a variety of stills, and enjoy nerding out in all of my hobbies, so I can at least point you the direction of what you are looking for or share my personal preferences.  But I'd need to know your priorities in what you want out of a still first.  Economy of build, ease of build, product quality (what does that mean to you?), esthetics, do you have physical limitations etc.



                                On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 9:12 PM, < mslovjoy@...> wrote:
                                  Wow Darren, went right to name calling, didn't you? Geoff says he's new, I didn't know that,so it's ok for him to answer as he did. Bravo his enthusiasm for a new endeavour.  On the other hand, your (or YOUR, as you would type it) writing, indicates either, that you (YOU) have serious, real knowledge, and experience in the hobby, or that you are simply pedantic. No matter to me, but neither bestows, upon you the right to cast aspersions on me, or anyone, for that matter. Maybe you should post your CV, so everyone would know how much honor you are entitled to, eh? In any event, your attitude is a real enthusiasm killer.



                                Geez dude, lighten up some?  Fact is the answer wasn't rude at all.  I'd say maybe 1 in a million newbies could possibly understand all the nuanced answers that could be given, and at that, many answers would be different because virtually none have even run all the possible management types, all their various modifications, and heck, even combinations.

                                Once you HAVE a rig, and have pondered it's use in action, a couple hundred light bulb go off, you will understand why it's important to start somewhere, almost anywhere before trying to understand everything. 

                                Home distillation is part art, part science.  To further that metaphor, how many scientists get their undergraduate degree without lots of hours in the lab?  Much less a phd with no lab time?  On the art side of the metaphor, how many artists create a masterpiece based only on art theory with zero prior experience with a particular media?  No matter how skilled in an art you are, could you write me a msg and tell me how to nail it perfectly my first try with no experience?  If I could send Einstein an email, would I be able to prove unified field theory my first day in a laboratory?  Maybe I'll email Jimmy Hendrix and ask him how to be a rock star....

                                Even the question is flawed and incomplete, only VM, CM and LM were asked.  What about RLM?  VM/LM combos?  Whatever abreviation was coined for the movable reflux coil?  Even within the categories asked, take VM for example, are we talking Nixon's original style with the VM take off well below the RC, in which case tails will be automatically reduced, or are we talking about the newer T designs which run as deep into tails as you care to take them?  Do YOU understand the physics behind that difference?  If so, then you probably don't need advice.  Does the VM in question have a heads trap above it?  It makes a HUGE difference!  Are we talking CM with cross tubes low in the column or a partial reflux condesnor?  The pros and cons of each management type depend on exactly which design you're talking about, and what you want out of it.  example; CM pro - easy to build; con - outdated design with inferior results.  This statement is true for some CM designs, and absolutely false for others.  Likewise, VM pro automatically reduces tails; con - minimum reflux rate is 1:1.  This sentence is absolutely true for some designs and absolutely false for others.

                                Moreover, do YOU care about water efficiency?  Are YOU ever going to recycle tails?  Do YOU enjoy a more hands on or automatic spirit run?  Are YOU fond of or can't stand late heads?  Can YOU even taste the difference between true neutral and run of the mill azeo ethanol?  Are you seeing how much YOU goes into what details even matter to YOU?

                                Nothing wrong with asking questions as a newb.  But you have to realize that those with more experience may not only have answers to your questions, but also advice that your original question is barking up the wrong tree.

                                Geoff's asnwer was a good one.  Pick a design proven by many to work well making the product you are interested in.  Spend some lab time learning the science or doing the art.  Then you'll have the experience and understanding necessary to decide on your next still, or to be perfectly happy with a good enough design to begin with.  Some master level distillers prefer each still type, none of them are wrong, it's their personal preferences, circumstances and exact applications that differ.  As a beginner you have no preference, circumstance nor application, so nobody can guide you much further than picking one of a few proven good designs, learning on it, and seeing what you learn and what you want.  It is good advice, and you are arrogant and ignorant to deride it.  Even the OP appreciated that while it might not have been a good direct answer, it was better advice.




                                On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 3:26 PM, < mslovjoy@...> wrote:
                                  Hi Jim, and all. Did anyone ever answer your still management question? If so, would you share the answer(s) with a fellow newbee?  I agree with Darrin, that Geoff's (NON) answer to you, is beautifully a composed "I don't know, go figure it out for yourself." Maybe it was innocent, and well intended, but how rude. I've had the answer,"I know, but it would take too long to tell you!" Come on guys, Jim, and I wouldn't do that to you, if YOU were new, and not wanting to re invent this wheel. No offense, simply a sad observation. Helpful replies welcomed, or flame on, if that's your need. 


                                ---In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, <dquinter@...> wrote:

                                Geoff GREAT post well said! I spent forever in information overload waiting trying to figure out what to build.....Ya just have to pick one and do it.
                                 
                                ___________________________________

                                From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com[mailto: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of geoff burrows
                                Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 2:49 AM
                                Subject: [new_distillers] Re: vm lm or cm
                                 




                                Hi Jim,
                                You’re at the stage we all went through at the start.  That of information overload.  What you now need to do is settle on a known workable still design for the product you would like to produce.
                                     Make it and learn from it because armed with this new found knowledge you will be better able to move forward in this new hobby.
                                     But as sure as guns are made of metal you are going to make another still like we all have.  Get off the fence or you’ll get splinters in your butt.  Get down in the mucky and get your hands dirty and get making.
                                     In order to make any particular item of your still, you need to have a fundamental understanding of how to make it, where it goes, also why and how it works long before you make it (more knowledge and experience). 
                                     This is you learning and when it’s learnt (just like when you learnt the alphabet) you will automatically tuck it away and go on to the next lesson this makes the whole field of distilling less muddy and confusing.
                                     It’s this basic practical knowledge you acquire and tuck away in the background which makes the next thing you do more understandable.  This practical experience will let you make sense of all you have read. 
                                     Don’t try too hard getting it exactly right the first time because you probably won’t the first time (how many times did you fall down before you learned how to walk?) 
                                     It’s the ability of knowing and learning from your own mistakes that makes you more knowledgeable and experienced.  Plus it’s all backed up with the theory of your own reading.
                                Settle on a design and make it and see how you go from there
                                Geoff    



                                ___________________________________

                                No virus found in this message.
                                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                Version: 2012.0.2176 / Virus Database: 2425/5000 - Release Date: 05/15/12







                              • RLB
                                If you are going to be long winded over and over, please cut off most of what was written previously, Thank you. ________________________________ From: Zapata
                                Message 15 of 16 , Oct 13, 2013
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                                  If you are going to be long winded over and over, please cut off most of what was written previously, Thank you.


                                  From: Zapata Vive <zapatavive@...>
                                  To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2013 7:11 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [new_distillers] RE: vm lm or cm

                                   
                                  Dude, you do see where I have repeatedly offered you not only sound advice, but personal, tailored to you, specific guidance, right?  And you still criticize my "teaching"?  

                                  I feel like you aren't reading what I write, just skimming it and firing back.

                                  I never said Geoff didn't understand well enough to answer any better.  My opinion, being someone who understands, owns, builds, uses a variety of stills and is well read on the current state of hobby distilling, his answer is a good one.  I don't know Geoff or how much he knows or doesnt.  It's regardless, because his answer in this case was solid.  You as someone who obviously doesn't have as much knowledge or experience are the one saying it's not a good answer, even though you were gracious enough to excuse him for it.

                                  You are distorting my advice if you think I've suggested you just go try distilliing clueless.  I do suggest getting hands on experience quickly, but not blindly.  Reading the homedistiller.org website from front to back several times is a good place for anyone to start.  If you want to ignore the advice to get started on a proven design, fine, I'll amend it to reading homedistiller, making fine spirits, the complete distiller, and designing and building automatic stills.  At that point you will need to do a lot more group and forum research to catch up with what has been done since publication.  Then, since you will still lack any personal experience, you can come and ask specific questions on our experiences.  Maybe a year later you can finally get started in the hobby.  Nothing wrong with that approach if you're not really interested in getting started anyway.

                                  I also haven't told you that you need look elsewhere for any particular answer, just accept the possibility that your question itself might be misguided.

                                  Based on my reading and experience, the only complete set of pros and cons regarding still management methods can only be vague near to the point of uselessness.  (I've referenced a good example posting earlier in this thread)  And you as someone who apparently doesn't understand and use these devices keep insisting that some better teacher can give you a better answer.  Maybe you're right, but I've never seen it.  Every attempt I have seen does not take into account all the current variations in the different methods.  I've even given you examples of this.  Feel free to post up any more detailed set of pros and cons you can find, I'd be glad to illustrate to you what I mean, maybe even learn something new myself.

                                  Or, if this theoretical back and forth has gotten as frustrating for you as it has for me, feel free to take me (and the collective knowledge of this entire group) up on our offer to give you some personalized guidance.  But please, take it for what it is, fellow hobbyists offering to help each other out, and keep the criticism of how well we do it to a minimum.


                                • mslovjoy
                                  Dude , I have tried to make nice with you, been self deprecating, agreed with you, and even given you credit for a level of expertise which cannot be
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Oct 13, 2013
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                                    "Dude", I have tried to make nice with you, been self deprecating, agreed with you, and even given you credit for a level of expertise which cannot be surpassed, FAR above my own in most areas. All to absolutely no avail. .It would have taken me a while to get back a year and a half to Bob's posting, but I would have gotten there in due course . You could have simply told Jim, and me, about it, but you chose not to.You opted, instead, to be an unwelcome interloper. You remain pointlessly verbose, and combative, offering nothing of substance. I have read many of your posts. You can be very good, when you are not bullying, and blue sky philosophizing. As I recall, you were never part of my original question, to another member, nor was my simple observation directed toward you. I have indeed found precise answers to our, Jim"s, and my, simple question. Happily, and graciously given, without this drama, which you seem so fond of. I am not interested in meeting your needs, in that regard. Should you ever want to reply, constructively, to anything I may ask, I would welcome your input.Beyond that , this crap stops here, and now. 



                                    ---In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, <zapatavive@...> wrote:

                                    Dude, you do see where I have repeatedly offered you not only sound advice, but personal, tailored to you, specific guidance, right?  And you still criticize my "teaching"?  

                                    I feel like you aren't reading what I write, just skimming it and firing back.

                                    I never said Geoff didn't understand well enough to answer any better.  My opinion, being someone who understands, owns, builds, uses a variety of stills and is well read on the current state of hobby distilling, his answer is a good one.  I don't know Geoff or how much he knows or doesnt.  It's regardless, because his answer in this case was solid.  You as someone who obviously doesn't have as much knowledge or experience are the one saying it's not a good answer, even though you were gracious enough to excuse him for it.

                                    You are distorting my advice if you think I've suggested you just go try distilliing clueless.  I do suggest getting hands on experience quickly, but not blindly.  Reading the homedistiller.org website from front to back several times is a good place for anyone to start.  If you want to ignore the advice to get started on a proven design, fine, I'll amend it to reading homedistiller, making fine spirits, the complete distiller, and designing and building automatic stills.  At that point you will need to do a lot more group and forum research to catch up with what has been done since publication.  Then, since you will still lack any personal experience, you can come and ask specific questions on our experiences.  Maybe a year later you can finally get started in the hobby.  Nothing wrong with that approach if you're not really interested in getting started anyway.

                                    I also haven't told you that you need look elsewhere for any particular answer, just accept the possibility that your question itself might be misguided.

                                    Based on my reading and experience, the only complete set of pros and cons regarding still management methods can only be vague near to the point of uselessness.  (I've referenced a good example posting earlier in this thread)  And you as someone who apparently doesn't understand and use these devices keep insisting that some better teacher can give you a better answer.  Maybe you're right, but I've never seen it.  Every attempt I have seen does not take into account all the current variations in the different methods.  I've even given you examples of this.  Feel free to post up any more detailed set of pros and cons you can find, I'd be glad to illustrate to you what I mean, maybe even learn something new myself.

                                    Or, if this theoretical back and forth has gotten as frustrating for you as it has for me, feel free to take me (and the collective knowledge of this entire group) up on our offer to give you some personalized guidance.  But please, take it for what it is, fellow hobbyists offering to help each other out, and keep the criticism of how well we do it to a minimum.


                                    On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 4:45 PM, <mslovjoy@...> wrote:
                                     

                                    First off, I find this new Yahoo format somewhat confusing, and less than useful. I did confuse the names.  Yahoo was good when I last used it. Not so much, now.

                                      Now, to wrap up this silliness , yes Zap, I thought I was addressing my attacker. Can I forgive you the name calling? Sure, done. We, clearly, have philosophical difference(s) as to teaching, which I consider answering the questions of the less informed, to be.  Geoff, as you said (1 in a million), likely has not garnered sufficient depth of knowledge in this hobby to answer better than he did. I do not minimize the value of raw encouragement, to the newcomer, but encouragement, and information, bear little relationship to one-another. In my experience, a PhD (you, maybe), makes the best possible teacher, as they can answer any question, hardest to simplest, so that anyone can understand the answer. I, and other noobs, would be the substitute teachers. Full of energy, but with little direction. Most types of Engineers (even the train kind) would never tell someone to go try it, and see what happens. Fortunately, this is a low risk hobby. No one gets hurt. 

                                       As for myself, I'll keep reading, and stop looking for short cuts. Everything has been answered, somewhere. Sorry for the confusion.



                                    ---In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, <zapatavive@...> wrote:

                                    Are you talking to me?  It's not clear, I'm zapata, not Darren, but you seem to be replying to me.  Assuming you are, seriously you don't like my name calling?  You call Geoff rude, while contributing nothing.  I call you arrogant, while offering real advice and you have a problem with it?  Whatever on that point, I'm sure you'll get over it, I know I am.

                                    You seem to have forgiven Geoff for his rudeness, can you forgive me and look past that one sentence, and read the rest of the advice?  Start with a proven design, and go from there.  I even described why it's so hard to give the exact answer you asked for. 

                                    But I'll try it again.  For a beginner choosing a first still, the management technique is pretty much irrelevant to other factors.  It's like asking pros and cons of diesel vs gas engines.  With no more info than that there are only differences, not pros and cons.  The pros/cons are different if we are talking about backhoes or VW's, 1980's VWs or 2014 VW's, etc. 
                                    Focus on these first.
                                    1.  What product do you want to make, flavored spirits, vodka, or if both, which one do you want it to do better?
                                    2.  Pick a specific design proven to make that product.
                                    3.  Focus on that design, and see if it fits in your setting.  (Is it too tall, do you need to use a small pump you already have but the design requires a bigger pump, does the build look more difficult to you, does it fit your budget, are the materials available locally etc)
                                    4.  Read the designers info on the still, does anything they say about it seem unnappealing to you?  Read build threads for that design, new builders usually talk about their first few runs in build threads, does anything they mention sound unappealing to you?  Is there a design modification around it, or is it inherrent in the design?  Do other proven designs seem to have the same type of reports?
                                    5.  If in 3 and 4 you have concerns about a specific design and it's detail, ask a specific question, those with experience would love to answer what they can.
                                    6.  It wouldn't be a bad idea to completely skip items 3-5, and just build a proven design.  You'll be making damn good liquor while you learn 2-5 hands on, and you can drink your damn good liquor while reading and studying more about the hobby.

                                    I actually tried to actually draft a specific answer to the pros and cons question.  But I couldn't come up with anything better than Bob's post in this thread a year and a half ago.  Any more details than he put in only apply to some designs in each category, or are more personal preference than pro/con.

                                    Is that helpful?  If not, instead of trying to answer a universal question ranking just still management types, I'd be glad to help you sort through various designs to see what suits you personally.  I don't consider myself an expert, but I do have a variety of stills, and enjoy nerding out in all of my hobbies, so I can at least point you the direction of what you are looking for or share my personal preferences.  But I'd need to know your priorities in what you want out of a still first.  Economy of build, ease of build, product quality (what does that mean to you?), esthetics, do you have physical limitations etc.



                                    On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 9:12 PM, <mslovjoy@...> wrote:
                                     

                                    Wow Darren, went right to name calling, didn't you? Geoff says he's new, I didn't know that,so it's ok for him to answer as he did. Bravo his enthusiasm for a new endeavour.  On the other hand, your (or YOUR, as you would type it) writing, indicates either, that you (YOU) have serious, real knowledge, and experience in the hobby, or that you are simply pedantic. No matter to me, but neither bestows, upon you the right to cast aspersions on me, or anyone, for that matter. Maybe you should post your CV, so everyone would know how much honor you are entitled to, eh? In any event, your attitude is a real enthusiasm killer.



                                    ---In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                    Geez dude, lighten up some?  Fact is the answer wasn't rude at all.  I'd say maybe 1 in a million newbies could possibly understand all the nuanced answers that could be given, and at that, many answers would be different because virtually none have even run all the possible management types, all their various modifications, and heck, even combinations.

                                    Once you HAVE a rig, and have pondered it's use in action, a couple hundred light bulb go off, you will understand why it's important to start somewhere, almost anywhere before trying to understand everything. 

                                    Home distillation is part art, part science.  To further that metaphor, how many scientists get their undergraduate degree without lots of hours in the lab?  Much less a phd with no lab time?  On the art side of the metaphor, how many artists create a masterpiece based only on art theory with zero prior experience with a particular media?  No matter how skilled in an art you are, could you write me a msg and tell me how to nail it perfectly my first try with no experience?  If I could send Einstein an email, would I be able to prove unified field theory my first day in a laboratory?  Maybe I'll email Jimmy Hendrix and ask him how to be a rock star....

                                    Even the question is flawed and incomplete, only VM, CM and LM were asked.  What about RLM?  VM/LM combos?  Whatever abreviation was coined for the movable reflux coil?  Even within the categories asked, take VM for example, are we talking Nixon's original style with the VM take off well below the RC, in which case tails will be automatically reduced, or are we talking about the newer T designs which run as deep into tails as you care to take them?  Do YOU understand the physics behind that difference?  If so, then you probably don't need advice.  Does the VM in question have a heads trap above it?  It makes a HUGE difference!  Are we talking CM with cross tubes low in the column or a partial reflux condesnor?  The pros and cons of each management type depend on exactly which design you're talking about, and what you want out of it.  example; CM pro - easy to build; con - outdated design with inferior results.  This statement is true for some CM designs, and absolutely false for others.  Likewise, VM pro automatically reduces tails; con - minimum reflux rate is 1:1.  This sentence is absolutely true for some designs and absolutely false for others.

                                    Moreover, do YOU care about water efficiency?  Are YOU ever going to recycle tails?  Do YOU enjoy a more hands on or automatic spirit run?  Are YOU fond of or can't stand late heads?  Can YOU even taste the difference between true neutral and run of the mill azeo ethanol?  Are you seeing how much YOU goes into what details even matter to YOU?

                                    Nothing wrong with asking questions as a newb.  But you have to realize that those with more experience may not only have answers to your questions, but also advice that your original question is barking up the wrong tree.

                                    Geoff's asnwer was a good one.  Pick a design proven by many to work well making the product you are interested in.  Spend some lab time learning the science or doing the art.  Then you'll have the experience and understanding necessary to decide on your next still, or to be perfectly happy with a good enough design to begin with.  Some master level distillers prefer each still type, none of them are wrong, it's their personal preferences, circumstances and exact applications that differ.  As a beginner you have no preference, circumstance nor application, so nobody can guide you much further than picking one of a few proven good designs, learning on it, and seeing what you learn and what you want.  It is good advice, and you are arrogant and ignorant to deride it.  Even the OP appreciated that while it might not have been a good direct answer, it was better advice.




                                    On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 3:26 PM, <mslovjoy@...> wrote:
                                     

                                    Hi Jim, and all. Did anyone ever answer your still management question? If so, would you share the answer(s) with a fellow newbee?  I agree with Darrin, that Geoff's (NON) answer to you, is beautifully a composed "I don't know, go figure it out for yourself." Maybe it was innocent, and well intended, but how rude. I've had the answer,"I know, but it would take too long to tell you!" Come on guys, Jim, and I wouldn't do that to you, if YOU were new, and not wanting to re invent this wheel. No offense, simply a sad observation. Helpful replies welcomed, or flame on, if that's your need. 



                                    ---In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, <dquinter@...> wrote:

                                    Geoff GREAT post well said! I spent forever in information overload waiting trying to figure out what to build.....Ya just have to pick one and do it.

                                     


                                    From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of geoff burrows
                                    Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 2:49 AM
                                    To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [new_distillers] Re: vm lm or cm

                                     




                                    Hi Jim,

                                    You’re at the stage we all went through at the start.  That of information overload.  What you now need to do is settle on a known workable still design for the product you would like to produce.

                                         Make it and learn from it because armed with this new found knowledge you will be better able to move forward in this new hobby.

                                         But as sure as guns are made of metal you are going to make another still like we all have.  Get off the fence or you’ll get splinters in your butt.  Get down in the mucky and get your hands dirty and get making.

                                         In order to make any particular item of your still, you need to have a fundamental understanding of how to make it, where it goes, also why and how it works long before you make it (more knowledge and experience). 

                                         This is you learning and when it’s learnt (just like when you learnt the alphabet) you will automatically tuck it away and go on to the next lesson this makes the whole field of distilling less muddy and confusing.

                                         It’s this basic practical knowledge you acquire and tuck away in the background which makes the next thing you do more understandable.  This practical experience will let you make sense of all you have read. 

                                         Don’t try too hard getting it exactly right the first time because you probably won’t the first time (how many times did you fall down before you learned how to walk?) 

                                         It’s the ability of knowing and learning from your own mistakes that makes you more knowledgeable and experienced.  Plus it’s all backed up with the theory of your own reading.

                                    Settle on a design and make it and see how you go from there

                                    Geoff    



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