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PID Controller

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  • gavinflett
    Can anyone recommend a PID controller that can be shipped into Canada for a decent price. ZB I now you recommended one, but I haven t the absolute foggiest
    Message 1 of 28 , May 14, 2012
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      Can anyone recommend a PID controller that can be shipped into Canada for a decent price. ZB I now you recommended one, but I haven't the absolute foggiest what the hell all the jargon is. So maybe an all-grainer can decipher it in laymen's terms and give me a link that ships to the colony. For some reason none of the US guys like to ship up here.
    • Jim
      ... PID Digital Temperature Control Controller Thermocouple 0... (250984126629) Member id leifromchina2011 here is a ebay seller I bought one from 18.00 and
      Message 2 of 28 , May 14, 2012
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        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gavinflett" <gavin_flett@...> wrote:
        >
        > Can anyone recommend a PID controller that can be shipped into Canada for a decent price. ZB I now you recommended one, but I haven't the absolute foggiest what the hell all the jargon is. So maybe an all-grainer can decipher it in laymen's terms and give me a link that ships to the colony. For some reason none of the US guys like to ship up here.
        >
        PID Digital Temperature Control Controller Thermocouple 0... (250984126629)
        Member id leifromchina2011
        here is a ebay seller I bought one from 18.00 and seems to be a good make sure to request a manual in english good luch
      • Bob Glicksman
        Gavin, I can t help you with shipping to Canada, but I would like to caution you about using a PID controller if the process variable that you are monitoring
        Message 3 of 28 , May 14, 2012
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          Gavin,
           
          I can't help you with shipping to Canada, but I would like to caution you about using a PID controller if the process variable that you are monitoring is the still head temperature.  The reason for this caution is that a PID controller wants to rapidly "servo" in on the optimal value by over- and under-shooting the target.  That isn't a problem if you are trying for say 160 proof or so, but if you are trying for near the azeotrope, you will encounter a problem as the still head temperature can be above bp of the azeotrope but never below it (well, the foreshots contain lower bp substances such as methanol, but once you are into the ethanol part of the run, this statement is true).  I won't get into a lot of process control theory here, but the theory upon which a PID controller operates assumes that the process variable being monitored bears a linear relationship to the process variable being controlled (the reflux ratio, in the case of a still).  Offtimes, in actual practice, the relationship does not have to a be strictly linear but it absolutely must be monotomic.  This isn't the case with still head temperature at or near the azeotrope, so unless you are aiming for low proof, this won't work.  It works (kind of) with manual control because we humans excel in heuristic control algorithms -- we sense if we may have overshot something (or run into a region with no response or even inverse relationship) and our intelligence allows us to reason out that we should roll back to where we had "normal" operation and approach optimization more slowly or via a different route. Even so, you can't get absolutely azeotropic product manually via this setup, because you will have to come to a higher vapor temperature reading, at least for a bit, to know that there is too little reflux and then increase it.  But if you increase too much, you will get azeotrope but with too much reflux and thus too low a product rate (which may be OK for you -- it is OK with Mike Nxon and other spirit distillers but not fuel enthusiasts like me).
           
          The solution is the place a temperature probe (the one that is used by the PID controller) somewhere in the middle of your packed column -- at a point where the proof is somewhere in the middle between the beer vapors and the desired azeotropic product.  Now you have a place to servo on and still get azeotropic product out (because you can sense both over- and under- refluxing).  If you try and do this, take great care not to have liquid reflux dripping down on the probe or the reading will be off.  Put some sort of hood over the probe so that only ascending vapors contact it.  Make sure that the probe fitting through the column wall is well insulated, that the probe and hood are very small so as to not mess up the reflux in the column, and make sure that the probe does not create any significant gaps in the packing.  You can get some ideas as to how to build such a probe from Riku's book: "Designing and Building Automatic Stills", available from the Amphora Society: http://www.amphora-society.com/Designing-and-Building-Automatic-Stills-2nd-Edition--by-Riku_p_3.html.
           
          PS -- if you care to use a microcontroller and build your own PIC controller, you can see: http://www.arduino.cc/playground/Code/PIDLibrary.  Arduino microcontroller boards and accessories can be purchased on the Internet from all over the world and you should have no trouble getting what you need in Canada.  I use hardware vendors Jameo Electronics, Sparkfun, and Adafruit, which are all US based, but they seem to ship anywhere in the world.  You can also go to the Arduino website and find distributors in other countries than the US:  http://arduino.cc/en/Main/Buy.
           
          I hope that this helps,
          Bob
          -----Original Message-----
          From: gavinflett <gavin_flett@...>
          To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Mon, May 14, 2012 7:54 pm
          Subject: [new_distillers] PID Controller

           
          Can anyone recommend a PID controller that can be shipped into Canada for a decent price. ZB I now you recommended one, but I haven't the absolute foggiest what the hell all the jargon is. So maybe an all-grainer can decipher it in laymen's terms and give me a link that ships to the colony. For some reason none of the US guys like to ship up here.

        • Gavin Flett
          Thanks Bob, but this is actually for the RIMS that I built for my Whiskey production To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com From: bobg542492@aol.com Date: Tue, 15
          Message 4 of 28 , May 14, 2012
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            Thanks Bob, but this is actually for the RIMS that I built for my Whiskey production


            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
            From: bobg542492@...
            Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 00:43:48 -0400
            Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

             

            Gavin,
             
            I can't help you with shipping to Canada, but I would like to caution you about using a PID controller if the process variable that you are monitoring is the still head temperature.  The reason for this caution is that a PID controller wants to rapidly "servo" in on the optimal value by over- and under-shooting the target.  That isn't a problem if you are trying for say 160 proof or so, but if you are trying for near the azeotrope, you will encounter a problem as the still head temperature can be above bp of the azeotrope but never below it (well, the foreshots contain lower bp substances such as methanol, but once you are into the ethanol part of the run, this statement is true).  I won't get into a lot of process control theory here, but the theory upon which a PID controller operates assumes that the process variable being monitored bears a linear relationship to the process variable being controlled (the reflux ratio, in the case of a still).  Offtimes, in actual practice, the relationship does not have to a be strictly linear but it absolutely must be monotomic.  This isn't the case with still head temperature at or near the azeotrope, so unless you are aiming for low proof, this won't work.  It works (kind of) with manual control because we humans excel in heuristic control algorithms -- we sense if we may have overshot something (or run into a region with no response or even inverse relationship) and our intelligence allows us to reason out that we should roll back to where we had "normal" operation and approach optimization more slowly or via a different route. Even so, you can't get absolutely azeotropic product manually via this setup, because you will have to come to a higher vapor temperature reading, at least for a bit, to know that there is too little reflux and then increase it.  But if you increase too much, you will get azeotrope but with too much reflux and thus too low a product rate (which may be OK for you -- it is OK with Mike Nxon and other spirit distillers but not fuel enthusiasts like me).
             
            The solution is the place a temperature probe (the one that is used by the PID controller) somewhere in the middle of your packed column -- at a point where the proof is somewhere in the middle between the beer vapors and the desired azeotropic product.  Now you have a place to servo on and still get azeotropic product out (because you can sense both over- and under- refluxing).  If you try and do this, take great care not to have liquid reflux dripping down on the probe or the reading will be off.  Put some sort of hood over the probe so that only ascending vapors contact it.  Make sure that the probe fitting through the column wall is well insulated, that the probe and hood are very small so as to not mess up the reflux in the column, and make sure that the probe does not create any significant gaps in the packing.  You can get some ideas as to how to build such a probe from Riku's book: "Designing and Building Automatic Stills", available from the Amphora Society: http://www.amphora-society.com/Designing-and-Building-Automatic-Stills-2nd-Edition--by-Riku_p_3.html.
             
            PS -- if you care to use a microcontroller and build your own PIC controller, you can see: http://www.arduino.cc/playground/Code/PIDLibrary.  Arduino microcontroller boards and accessories can be purchased on the Internet from all over the world and you should have no trouble getting what you need in Canada.  I use hardware vendors Jameo Electronics, Sparkfun, and Adafruit, which are all US based, but they seem to ship anywhere in the world.  You can also go to the Arduino website and find distributors in other countries than the US:  http://arduino.cc/en/Main/Buy.
             
            I hope that this helps,
            Bob
            -----Original Message-----
            From: gavinflett <gavin_flett@...>
            To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Mon, May 14, 2012 7:54 pm
            Subject: [new_distillers] PID Controller

             
            Can anyone recommend a PID controller that can be shipped into Canada for a decent price. ZB I now you recommended one, but I haven't the absolute foggiest what the hell all the jargon is. So maybe an all-grainer can decipher it in laymen's terms and give me a link that ships to the colony. For some reason none of the US guys like to ship up here.


          • dhhyden@yahoo.com
            R Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile ... From: Gavin Flett Sender: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 04:53:46 To:
            Message 5 of 28 , May 15, 2012
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              R
              Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

              From: Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...>
              Sender: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 04:53:46 +0000
              To: <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
              ReplyTo: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [new_distillers] PID Controller

               

              Thanks Bob, but this is actually for the RIMS that I built for my Whiskey production


              To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
              From: bobg542492@...
              Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 00:43:48 -0400
              Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

               

              Gavin,
               
              I can't help you with shipping to Canada, but I would like to caution you about using a PID controller if the process variable that you are monitoring is the still head temperature.  The reason for this caution is that a PID controller wants to rapidly "servo" in on the optimal value by over- and under-shooting the target.  That isn't a problem if you are trying for say 160 proof or so, but if you are trying for near the azeotrope, you will encounter a problem as the still head temperature can be above bp of the azeotrope but never below it (well, the foreshots contain lower bp substances such as methanol, but once you are into the ethanol part of the run, this statement is true).  I won't get into a lot of process control theory here, but the theory upon which a PID controller operates assumes that the process variable being monitored bears a linear relationship to the process variable being controlled (the reflux ratio, in the case of a still).  Offtimes, in actual practice, the relationship does not have to a be strictly linear but it absolutely must be monotomic.  This isn't the case with still head temperature at or near the azeotrope, so unless you are aiming for low proof, this won't work.  It works (kind of) with manual control because we humans excel in heuristic control algorithms -- we sense if we may have overshot something (or run into a region with no response or even inverse relationship) and our intelligence allows us to reason out that we should roll back to where we had "normal" operation and approach optimization more slowly or via a different route. Even so, you can't get absolutely azeotropic product manually via this setup, because you will have to come to a higher vapor temperature reading, at least for a bit, to know that there is too little reflux and then increase it.  But if you increase too much, you will get azeotrope but with too much reflux and thus too low a product rate (which may be OK for you -- it is OK with Mike Nxon and other spirit distillers but not fuel enthusiasts like me).
               
              The solution is the place a temperature probe (the one that is used by the PID controller) somewhere in the middle of your packed column -- at a point where the proof is somewhere in the middle between the beer vapors and the desired azeotropic product.  Now you have a place to servo on and still get azeotropic product out (because you can sense both over- and under- refluxing).  If you try and do this, take great care not to have liquid reflux dripping down on the probe or the reading will be off.  Put some sort of hood over the probe so that only ascending vapors contact it.  Make sure that the probe fitting through the column wall is well insulated, that the probe and hood are very small so as to not mess up the reflux in the column, and make sure that the probe does not create any significant gaps in the packing.  You can get some ideas as to how to build such a probe from Riku's book: "Designing and Building Automatic Stills", available from the Amphora Society: http://www.amphora-society.com/Designing-and-Building-Automatic-Stills-2nd-Edition--by-Riku_p_3.html.
               
              PS -- if you care to use a microcontroller and build your own PIC controller, you can see: http://www.arduino.cc/playground/Code/PIDLibrary.  Arduino microcontroller boards and accessories can be purchased on the Internet from all over the world and you should have no trouble getting what you need in Canada.  I use hardware vendors Jameo Electronics, Sparkfun, and Adafruit, which are all US based, but they seem to ship anywhere in the world.  You can also go to the Arduino website and find distributors in other countries than the US:  http://arduino.cc/en/Main/Buy.
               
              I hope that this helps,
              Bob
              -----Original Message-----
              From: gavinflett <gavin_flett@...>
              To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Mon, May 14, 2012 7:54 pm
              Subject: [new_distillers] PID Controller

               
              Can anyone recommend a PID controller that can be shipped into Canada for a decent price. ZB I now you recommended one, but I haven't the absolute foggiest what the hell all the jargon is. So maybe an all-grainer can decipher it in laymen's terms and give me a link that ships to the colony. For some reason none of the US guys like to ship up here.


            • White Bear
              Friends- My Uncle use to test the ABV of his stripping run by collecting 5 drops of distillate on a small flat piece of metal such as a canning jar flat. He
              Message 6 of 28 , May 15, 2012
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                Friends-
                My Uncle use to test the ABV of his stripping run by collecting 5 drops of distillate on a small flat piece of metal such as a canning jar flat. He would set it to flame and after it burned out, tip the flat and count the drops that drip off.
                QUESTION: would this be a reliable test for ABV? If so, why or why not.
                Thanks
                White Bear
              • Bob Glicksman
                I can t imagine that this would be any sort of accurate test. The water will evaporate with the alcohol. Admittedly, there is a distinct physical
                Message 7 of 28 , May 15, 2012
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                  I can't imagine that this would be any sort of accurate test.  The water will evaporate with the alcohol.  Admittedly, there is a distinct physical relationship in play here, but 5 drops?  Not much resolution here and limited control of how mauch water evaporates with the burn.
                   
                  What's wrong with a hydrometer?  They make them in all sorts of ranges and they aren't terribly expensive.  If you get a full range (0-100%) alcohol hydrometer, you can use this for thr stripping run and for the final distillation as well.  Hydrometers don't work well at all in a beer because of the other stuff (other than alcohol and water) in the beer, but after a stripping run you pretty much have just alcohol and water in mixture.  A hydrometer test will take more than 5 drops (several milliliters) but then the test doesn't alter the product in any way so you can pour it back after the test is done.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: White Bear <sha_man_1@...>
                  To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tue, May 15, 2012 3:56 pm
                  Subject: [new_distillers] Quick Question ABV test

                   
                  Friends-
                  My Uncle use to test the ABV of his stripping run by collecting 5 drops of distillate on a small flat piece of metal such as a canning jar flat. He would set it to flame and after it burned out, tip the flat and count the drops that drip off.
                  QUESTION: would this be a reliable test for ABV? If so, why or why not.
                  Thanks
                  White Bear
                • Scott Fischer
                  I agree a hydrometer is best and pretty cheap. There s also something ridiculously cool about learning to proof your product the old school way. I just don t
                  Message 8 of 28 , May 15, 2012
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                    I agree a hydrometer is best and pretty cheap. There's also something ridiculously cool about learning to proof your product the old school way.  I just don't think it's practical.

                  • Al Wells
                    These guys ship to Canada, and their product choices and customer service are as good as it gets. http://www.instrumart.com/
                    Message 9 of 28 , May 16, 2012
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                      These guys ship to Canada, and their product choices and customer
                      service are as good as it gets.

                      http://www.instrumart.com/
                    • grainbrewer
                      I recently purchased a PID Controller. Not being at all familiar with electronics, I am having a very difficult time understanding the instructions. Is it
                      Message 10 of 28 , Nov 17, 2012
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                        I recently purchased a PID Controller. Not being at all familiar with electronics, I am having a very difficult time understanding the instructions. Is it possible for someone to read the instructions and translate them into lamens terms for me? Mostly I am unfamiliar with the wiring diagram and symbols.

                        The PID is an Auberins SYL-2372 and I have a contacter to go with it model # CN-PBC302-120V.
                      • laxt57@aol.com
                        Hi Sure, simple as piece of cake. The number 9 and 10 terminals provide power to the PID (only for the PID not the heating element) The 6 and 7 terminals
                        Message 11 of 28 , Nov 18, 2012
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                          Hi
                          Sure, simple as piece of cake.
                          The number 9 and 10 terminals provide power to the PID
                          (only for the PID not the heating element)
                          The 6 and 7 terminals control a relay for some sort of device
                          The 4 and 5 terminals are input from a thermocouple

                          So, I assume you are using this to control a heating element?
                          To make it work, you will need contactor(relay) big enough to run
                          your heating element.
                          Also you will need a thermocouple  and a heating element of course
                          The thermocouple is polarity sensitive, so you need to connect it
                          the right way round, that is if you are asking form hot and you get cold
                          swap 4 and 5

                          ----------------
                          |               |   4---------------- Thermocouple +
                          |     PID     |   5---------------  Thermocouple -
                          |               |   6---------------  Contactor------------------- coil RELAY--------- heater
                          |               |   7---------------- Contactor------------------- coil RELAY--------- heater
                          ----------------                                                        AC   AC
                            9      10                                                            IN    IN
                           AC    AC
                            IN    IN

                          Hope this helps
                          Jeri



                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: grainbrewer <gavin_flett@...>
                          To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Sat, Nov 17, 2012 11:42 am
                          Subject: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                           
                          I recently purchased a PID Controller. Not being at all familiar with electronics, I am having a very difficult time understanding the instructions. Is it possible for someone to read the instructions and translate them into lamens terms for me? Mostly I am unfamiliar with the wiring diagram and symbols.

                          The PID is an Auberins SYL-2372 and I have a contacter to go with it model # CN-PBC302-120V.

                        • virgil hoskins
                          And thats why i have enjoyed this group for the last year ,, Brothers helping brothers,, virgil ________________________________ From: laxt57@aol.com
                          Message 12 of 28 , Nov 18, 2012
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                            And thats why i have enjoyed this group for the last year ,,
                            Brothers helping brothers,,
                            virgil

                            From: "laxt57@..." <laxt57@...>
                            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 9:58 AM
                            Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller
                             
                            Hi
                            Sure, simple as piece of cake.
                            The number 9 and 10 terminals provide power to the PID
                            (only for the PID not the heating element)
                            The 6 and 7 terminals control a relay for some sort of device
                            The 4 and 5 terminals are input from a thermocouple

                            So, I assume you are using this to control a heating element?
                            To make it work, you will need contactor(relay) big enough to run
                            your heating element.
                            Also you will need a thermocouple  and a heating element of course
                            The thermocouple is polarity sensitive, so you need to connect it
                            the right way round, that is if you are asking form hot and you get cold
                            swap 4 and 5

                            ----------------
                            |               |   4---------------- Thermocouple +
                            |     PID     |   5---------------  Thermocouple -
                            |               |   6---------------  Contactor------------------- coil RELAY--------- heater
                            |               |   7---------------- Contactor------------------- coil RELAY--------- heater
                            ----------------                                                        AC   AC
                              9      10                                                            IN    IN
                             AC    AC
                              IN    IN

                            Hope this helps
                            Jeri



                            -----Original Message----- From: grainbrewer <gavin_flett@...> To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sat, Nov 17, 2012 11:42 am Subject: [new_distillers] PID Controller
                             
                            I recently purchased a PID Controller. Not being at all familiar with electronics, I am having a very difficult time understanding the instructions. Is it possible for someone to read the instructions and translate them into lamens terms for me? Mostly I am unfamiliar with the wiring diagram and symbols. The PID is an Auberins SYL-2372 and I have a contacter to go with it model # CN-PBC302-120V.
                          • Bob Glicksman
                            I don t know this particular PID controller, but if it is going to use a PID algorithm (proportional-integral-differential control), then it needs to adjust
                            Message 13 of 28 , Nov 18, 2012
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                              I don't know this particular PID controller, but if it is going to use a PID algorithm (proportional-integral-differential control), then it needs to adjust the heater output, not just turn it on and off.  Some PIDs can rapidly switch an SSR in order to adjust the heat output.  They do this for turning on the relay for some number of AC half-cycles (about 16 ms each half cycle for 60 Hz AC), since the heater's response time is much slower and will average out the electric power being modulated in this way.  But this type of operation requires a fast electric power switching device (an SSR).  A contactor or other electromechanical relay is too slow to do this (and rapidly switching one on and off all of the time will wear it out in notime flat). 

                              The only thing that you can realistically do with an electromechanical relay switching power to an electric heater is implement a "deadzone" type of control -- like an ordinary thermostat.  I'm not sure that this PID controller can do this.  Most PID controllers are far more expensive than a simple thermostat and there would be no reason to support this mode of operation.


                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: laxt57 <laxt57@...>
                              To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Sun, Nov 18, 2012 1:03 pm
                              Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                               
                              Hi
                              Sure, simple as piece of cake.
                              The number 9 and 10 terminals provide power to the PID
                              (only for the PID not the heating element)
                              The 6 and 7 terminals control a relay for some sort of device
                              The 4 and 5 terminals are input from a thermocouple

                              So, I assume you are using this to control a heating element?
                              To make it work, you will need contactor(relay) big enough to run
                              your heating element.
                              Also you will need a thermocouple  and a heating element of course
                              The thermocouple is polarity sensitive, so you need to connect it
                              the right way round, that is if you are asking form hot and you get cold
                              swap 4 and 5

                              ----------------
                              |               |   4---------------- Thermocouple +
                              |     PID     |   5---------------  Thermocouple -
                              |               |   6---------------  Contactor------------------- coil RELAY--------- heater
                              |               |   7---------------- Contactor------------------- coil RELAY--------- heater
                              ----------------                                                        AC   AC
                                9      10                                                            IN    IN
                               AC    AC
                                IN    IN

                              Hope this helps
                              Jeri



                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: grainbrewer <gavin_flett@...>
                              To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Sat, Nov 17, 2012 11:42 am
                              Subject: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                               
                              I recently purchased a PID Controller. Not being at all familiar with electronics, I am having a very difficult time understanding the instructions. Is it possible for someone to read the instructions and translate them into lamens terms for me? Mostly I am unfamiliar with the wiring diagram and symbols.

                              The PID is an Auberins SYL-2372 and I have a contacter to go with it model # CN-PBC302-120V.

                            • laxt57@aol.com
                              Hi Bob Did you read the technical publication for this controller? SYL-2372 I did Jeri ... From: Bob Glicksman To: new_distillers
                              Message 14 of 28 , Nov 18, 2012
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                                Hi Bob
                                Did you read the technical publication  for this controller?
                                SYL-2372
                                I did
                                Jeri



                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Bob Glicksman <bobg542492@...>
                                To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:42 pm
                                Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                 
                                I don't know this particular PID controller, but if it is going to use a PID algorithm (proportional-integral-differential control), then it needs to adjust the heater output, not just turn it on and off.  Some PIDs can rapidly switch an SSR in order to adjust the heat output.  They do this for turning on the relay for some number of AC half-cycles (about 16 ms each half cycle for 60 Hz AC), since the heater's response time is much slower and will average out the electric power being modulated in this way.  But this type of operation requires a fast electric power switching device (an SSR).  A contactor or other electromechanical relay is too slow to do this (and rapidly switching one on and off all of the time will wear it out in notime flat). 

                                The only thing that you can realistically do with an electromechanical relay switching power to an electric heater is implement a "deadzone" type of control -- like an ordinary thermostat.  I'm not sure that this PID controller can do this.  Most PID controllers are far more expensive than a simple thermostat and there would be no reason to support this mode of operation.


                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: laxt57 <laxt57@...>
                                To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Sun, Nov 18, 2012 1:03 pm
                                Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                 
                                Hi
                                Sure, simple as piece of cake.
                                The number 9 and 10 terminals provide power to the PID
                                (only for the PID not the heating element)
                                The 6 and 7 terminals control a relay for some sort of device
                                The 4 and 5 terminals are input from a thermocouple

                                So, I assume you are using this to control a heating element?
                                To make it work, you will need contactor(relay) big enough to run
                                your heating element.
                                Also you will need a thermocouple  and a heating element of course
                                The thermocouple is polarity sensitive, so you need to connect it
                                the right way round, that is if you are asking form hot and you get cold
                                swap 4 and 5

                                ----------------
                                |               |   4---------------- Thermocouple +
                                |     PID     |   5---------------  Thermocouple -
                                |               |   6---------------  Contactor------------------- coil RELAY--------- heater
                                |               |   7---------------- Contactor------------------- coil RELAY--------- heater
                                ----------------                                                        AC   AC
                                  9      10                                                            IN    IN
                                 AC    AC
                                  IN    IN

                                Hope this helps
                                Jeri



                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: grainbrewer <gavin_flett@...>
                                To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Sat, Nov 17, 2012 11:42 am
                                Subject: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                 
                                I recently purchased a PID Controller. Not being at all familiar with electronics, I am having a very difficult time understanding the instructions. Is it possible for someone to read the instructions and translate them into lamens terms for me? Mostly I am unfamiliar with the wiring diagram and symbols.

                                The PID is an Auberins SYL-2372 and I have a contacter to go with it model # CN-PBC302-120V.

                              • GGB
                                I built one of these and its gives excellent manual control from 0W up to about 3kW. I haven t done my first distillation yet but I expect it would be just the
                                Message 15 of 28 , Nov 19, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I built one of these and its gives excellent manual control from 0W up to about 3kW. I haven't done my first distillation yet but I expect it would be just the ticket. http://www.graham-laming.com/bd/Immersion_Heater_controller.pdf Matt Stevens was very helpful with my questions.

                                  Paul
                                • Bob Glicksman
                                  Hi Jeri, As I said, no I do not have the technical manual. I was just pointing out that proportional control of the heating element is not possible with an
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Nov 21, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi Jeri,
                                     
                                    As I said, no I do not have the technical manual.  I was just pointing out that proportional control of the heating element is not possible with an electromechnaical relay.  The heater is either on or off, and the relay cannot be cycled fast enough to make it pseudo-analog.  If a thermostate-like mode is supported by the PID controller, that is fine, as long as this type of operation is acceptable to Gavin.
                                     
                                    Bob
                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: laxt57 <laxt57@...>
                                    To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Wed, Nov 21, 2012 8:54 pm
                                    Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                     
                                    Hi Bob
                                    Did you read the technical publication  for this controller?
                                    SYL-2372
                                    I did
                                    Jeri



                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Bob Glicksman <bobg542492@...>
                                    To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:42 pm
                                    Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                     
                                    I don't know this particular PID controller, but if it is going to use a PID algorithm (proportional-integral-differential control), then it needs to adjust the heater output, not just turn it on and off.  Some PIDs can rapidly switch an SSR in order to adjust the heat output.  They do this for turning on the relay for some number of AC half-cycles (about 16 ms each half cycle for 60 Hz AC), since the heater's response time is much slower and will average out the electric power being modulated in this way.  But this type of operation requires a fast electric power switching device (an SSR).  A contactor or other electromechanical relay is too slow to do this (and rapidly switching one on and off all of the time will wear it out in notime flat). 

                                    The only thing that you can realistically do with an electromechanical relay switching power to an electric heater is implement a "deadzone" type of control -- like an ordinary thermostat.  I'm not sure that this PID controller can do this.  Most PID controllers are far more expensive than a simple thermostat and there would be no reason to support this mode of operation.


                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: laxt57 <laxt57@...>
                                    To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Sun, Nov 18, 2012 1:03 pm
                                    Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                     
                                    Hi
                                    Sure, simple as piece of cake.
                                    The number 9 and 10 terminals provide power to the PID
                                    (only for the PID not the heating element)
                                    The 6 and 7 terminals control a relay for some sort of device
                                    The 4 and 5 terminals are input from a thermocouple

                                    So, I assume you are using this to control a heating element?
                                    To make it work, you will need contactor(relay) big enough to run
                                    your heating element.
                                    Also you will need a thermocouple  and a heating element of course
                                    The thermocouple is polarity sensitive, so you need to connect it
                                    the right way round, that is if you are asking form hot and you get cold
                                    swap 4 and 5

                                    ----------------
                                    |               |   4---------------- Thermocouple +
                                    |     PID     |   5---------------  Thermocouple -
                                    |               |   6---------------  Contactor------------------- coil RELAY--------- heater
                                    |               |   7---------------- Contactor------------------- coil RELAY--------- heater
                                    ----------------                                                        AC   AC
                                      9      10                                                            IN    IN
                                     AC    AC
                                      IN    IN

                                    Hope this helps
                                    Jeri



                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: grainbrewer <gavin_flett@...>
                                    To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Sat, Nov 17, 2012 11:42 am
                                    Subject: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                     
                                    I recently purchased a PID Controller. Not being at all familiar with electronics, I am having a very difficult time understanding the instructions. Is it possible for someone to read the instructions and translate them into lamens terms for me? Mostly I am unfamiliar with the wiring diagram and symbols.

                                    The PID is an Auberins SYL-2372 and I have a contacter to go with it model # CN-PBC302-120V.

                                  • Gavin Flett
                                    Guys, I don t know the first thing about PID s. The terms used are mostly foreign to me, hence my trouble so far. If this is the wrong setup, then someone
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Nov 21, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Guys, I don't know the first thing about PID's. The terms used are mostly foreign to me, hence my trouble so far. If this is the wrong setup, then someone please tell me what I need to run a 2000W heating element for a RIMS.


                                      To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                      From: bobg542492@...
                                      Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:21:45 -0500
                                      Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                       

                                      Hi Jeri,
                                       
                                      As I said, no I do not have the technical manual.  I was just pointing out that proportional control of the heating element is not possible with an electromechnaical relay.  The heater is either on or off, and the relay cannot be cycled fast enough to make it pseudo-analog.  If a thermostate-like mode is supported by the PID controller, that is fine, as long as this type of operation is acceptable to Gavin.
                                       
                                      Bob
                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: laxt57 <laxt57@...>
                                      To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Wed, Nov 21, 2012 8:54 pm
                                      Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                       
                                      Hi Bob
                                      Did you read the technical publication  for this controller?
                                      SYL-2372
                                      I did
                                      Jeri



                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: Bob Glicksman <bobg542492@...>
                                      To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:42 pm
                                      Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                       
                                      I don't know this particular PID controller, but if it is going to use a PID algorithm (proportional-integral-differential control), then it needs to adjust the heater output, not just turn it on and off.  Some PIDs can rapidly switch an SSR in order to adjust the heat output.  They do this for turning on the relay for some number of AC half-cycles (about 16 ms each half cycle for 60 Hz AC), since the heater's response time is much slower and will average out the electric power being modulated in this way.  But this type of operation requires a fast electric power switching device (an SSR).  A contactor or other electromechanical relay is too slow to do this (and rapidly switching one on and off all of the time will wear it out in notime flat). 

                                      The only thing that you can realistically do with an electromechanical relay switching power to an electric heater is implement a "deadzone" type of control -- like an ordinary thermostat.  I'm not sure that this PID controller can do this.  Most PID controllers are far more expensive than a simple thermostat and there would be no reason to support this mode of operation.


                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: laxt57 <laxt57@...>
                                      To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Sun, Nov 18, 2012 1:03 pm
                                      Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                       
                                      Hi
                                      Sure, simple as piece of cake.
                                      The number 9 and 10 terminals provide power to the PID
                                      (only for the PID not the heating element)
                                      The 6 and 7 terminals control a relay for some sort of device
                                      The 4 and 5 terminals are input from a thermocouple

                                      So, I assume you are using this to control a heating element?
                                      To make it work, you will need contactor(relay) big enough to run
                                      your heating element.
                                      Also you will need a thermocouple  and a heating element of course
                                      The thermocouple is polarity sensitive, so you need to connect it
                                      the right way round, that is if you are asking form hot and you get cold
                                      swap 4 and 5

                                      ----------------
                                      |               |   4---------------- Thermocouple +
                                      |     PID     |   5---------------  Thermocouple -
                                      |               |   6---------------  Contactor------------------- coil RELAY--------- heater
                                      |               |   7---------------- Contactor------------------- coil RELAY--------- heater
                                      ----------------                                                        AC   AC
                                        9      10                                                            IN    IN
                                       AC    AC
                                        IN    IN

                                      Hope this helps
                                      Jeri



                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: grainbrewer <gavin_flett@...>
                                      To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Sat, Nov 17, 2012 11:42 am
                                      Subject: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                       
                                      I recently purchased a PID Controller. Not being at all familiar with electronics, I am having a very difficult time understanding the instructions. Is it possible for someone to read the instructions and translate them into lamens terms for me? Mostly I am unfamiliar with the wiring diagram and symbols.

                                      The PID is an Auberins SYL-2372 and I have a contacter to go with it model # CN-PBC302-120V.


                                    • Bob Glicksman
                                      Gavin, I searched out the manual and you should wire it as Jeri suggests. If you use an external contactor to control power to your heater, the PID controller
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Nov 22, 2012
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Gavin,
                                         
                                        I searched out the manual and you should wire it as Jeri suggests.  If you use an external contactor to control power to your heater, the PID controller will cycle it slowly -- turn it on for some number of seconds, then off and repeat every 100 seconds or so.  The heat output from the 2KW heater will vary as this happens, but the PID controller will attempt to hold the temperature as closely as possible.
                                         
                                        Bob
                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...>
                                        To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Wed, Nov 21, 2012 11:03 pm
                                        Subject: RE: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                         
                                        Guys, I don't know the first thing about PID's. The terms used are mostly foreign to me, hence my trouble so far. If this is the wrong setup, then someone please tell me what I need to run a 2000W heating element for a RIMS.


                                        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                        From: bobg542492@...
                                        Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:21:45 -0500
                                        Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                         

                                        Hi Jeri,
                                         
                                        As I said, no I do not have the technical manual.  I was just pointing out that proportional control of the heating element is not possible with an electromechnaical relay.  The heater is either on or off, and the relay cannot be cycled fast enough to make it pseudo-analog.  If a thermostate-like mode is supported by the PID controller, that is fine, as long as this type of operation is acceptable to Gavin.
                                         
                                        Bob
                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: laxt57 <laxt57@...>
                                        To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Wed, Nov 21, 2012 8:54 pm
                                        Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                         
                                        Hi Bob
                                        Did you read the technical publication  for this controller?
                                        SYL-2372
                                        I did
                                        Jeri



                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: Bob Glicksman <bobg542492@...>
                                        To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:42 pm
                                        Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                         
                                        I don't know this particular PID controller, but if it is going to use a PID algorithm (proportional-integral-differential control), then it needs to adjust the heater output, not just turn it on and off.  Some PIDs can rapidly switch an SSR in order to adjust the heat output.  They do this for turning on the relay for some number of AC half-cycles (about 16 ms each half cycle for 60 Hz AC), since the heater's response time is much slower and will average out the electric power being modulated in this way.  But this type of operation requires a fast electric power switching device (an SSR).  A contactor or other electromechanical relay is too slow to do this (and rapidly switching one on and off all of the time will wear it out in notime flat). 

                                        The only thing that you can realistically do with an electromechanical relay switching power to an electric heater is implement a "deadzone" type of control -- like an ordinary thermostat.  I'm not sure that this PID controller can do this.  Most PID controllers are far more expensive than a simple thermostat and there would be no reason to support this mode of operation.


                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: laxt57 <laxt57@...>
                                        To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Sun, Nov 18, 2012 1:03 pm
                                        Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                         
                                        Hi
                                        Sure, simple as piece of cake.
                                        The number 9 and 10 terminals provide power to the PID
                                        (only for the PID not the heating element)
                                        The 6 and 7 terminals control a relay for some sort of device
                                        The 4 and 5 terminals are input from a thermocouple

                                        So, I assume you are using this to control a heating element?
                                        To make it work, you will need contactor(relay) big enough to run
                                        your heating element.
                                        Also you will need a thermocouple  and a heating element of course
                                        The thermocouple is polarity sensitive, so you need to connect it
                                        the right way round, that is if you are asking form hot and you get cold
                                        swap 4 and 5

                                        ----------------
                                        |               |   4---------------- Thermocouple +
                                        |     PID     |   5---------------  Thermocouple -
                                        |               |   6---------------  Contactor------------------- coil RELAY--------- heater
                                        |               |   7---------------- Contactor------------------- coil RELAY--------- heater
                                        ----------------                                                        AC   AC
                                          9      10                                                            IN    IN
                                         AC    AC
                                          IN    IN

                                        Hope this helps
                                        Jeri



                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: grainbrewer <gavin_flett@...>
                                        To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Sat, Nov 17, 2012 11:42 am
                                        Subject: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                         
                                        I recently purchased a PID Controller. Not being at all familiar with electronics, I am having a very difficult time understanding the instructions. Is it possible for someone to read the instructions and translate them into lamens terms for me? Mostly I am unfamiliar with the wiring diagram and symbols.

                                        The PID is an Auberins SYL-2372 and I have a contacter to go with it model # CN-PBC302-120V.


                                      • Gavin Flett
                                        Ok, so it sounds like a similar method of operation to my Johnston A-419 temperature controller which basically turned it on full blast for a bit, then turned
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Nov 22, 2012
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Ok, so it sounds like a similar method of operation to my Johnston A-419 temperature controller which basically turned it on full blast for a bit, then turned it off. I saw temperature variances of up to 5 degrees. For instance I wanted to achieve a temperature of 64C, and it would end up all the way at 69C. Does the PID setup smooth out the heat fluctuations at all, a little bit or a lot?


                                          To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                          From: bobg542492@...
                                          Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 13:17:21 -0500
                                          Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                           

                                          Gavin,
                                           
                                          I searched out the manual and you should wire it as Jeri suggests.  If you use an external contactor to control power to your heater, the PID controller will cycle it slowly -- turn it on for some number of seconds, then off and repeat every 100 seconds or so.  The heat output from the 2KW heater will vary as this happens, but the PID controller will attempt to hold the temperature as closely as possible.
                                           
                                          Bob
                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...>
                                          To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Wed, Nov 21, 2012 11:03 pm
                                          Subject: RE: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                           
                                          Guys, I don't know the first thing about PID's. The terms used are mostly foreign to me, hence my trouble so far. If this is the wrong setup, then someone please tell me what I need to run a 2000W heating element for a RIMS.


                                          To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                          From: bobg542492@...
                                          Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:21:45 -0500
                                          Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                           

                                          Hi Jeri,
                                           
                                          As I said, no I do not have the technical manual.  I was just pointing out that proportional control of the heating element is not possible with an electromechnaical relay.  The heater is either on or off, and the relay cannot be cycled fast enough to make it pseudo-analog.  If a thermostate-like mode is supported by the PID controller, that is fine, as long as this type of operation is acceptable to Gavin.
                                           
                                          Bob
                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: laxt57 <laxt57@...>
                                          To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Wed, Nov 21, 2012 8:54 pm
                                          Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                           
                                          Hi Bob
                                          Did you read the technical publication  for this controller?
                                          SYL-2372
                                          I did
                                          Jeri



                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: Bob Glicksman <bobg542492@...>
                                          To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:42 pm
                                          Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                           
                                          I don't know this particular PID controller, but if it is going to use a PID algorithm (proportional-integral-differential control), then it needs to adjust the heater output, not just turn it on and off.  Some PIDs can rapidly switch an SSR in order to adjust the heat output.  They do this for turning on the relay for some number of AC half-cycles (about 16 ms each half cycle for 60 Hz AC), since the heater's response time is much slower and will average out the electric power being modulated in this way.  But this type of operation requires a fast electric power switching device (an SSR).  A contactor or other electromechanical relay is too slow to do this (and rapidly switching one on and off all of the time will wear it out in notime flat). 

                                          The only thing that you can realistically do with an electromechanical relay switching power to an electric heater is implement a "deadzone" type of control -- like an ordinary thermostat.  I'm not sure that this PID controller can do this.  Most PID controllers are far more expensive than a simple thermostat and there would be no reason to support this mode of operation.


                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: laxt57 <laxt57@...>
                                          To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Sun, Nov 18, 2012 1:03 pm
                                          Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                           
                                          Hi
                                          Sure, simple as piece of cake.
                                          The number 9 and 10 terminals provide power to the PID
                                          (only for the PID not the heating element)
                                          The 6 and 7 terminals control a relay for some sort of device
                                          The 4 and 5 terminals are input from a thermocouple

                                          So, I assume you are using this to control a heating element?
                                          To make it work, you will need contactor(relay) big enough to run
                                          your heating element.
                                          Also you will need a thermocouple  and a heating element of course
                                          The thermocouple is polarity sensitive, so you need to connect it
                                          the right way round, that is if you are asking form hot and you get cold
                                          swap 4 and 5

                                          ----------------
                                          |               |   4---------------- Thermocouple +
                                          |     PID     |   5---------------  Thermocouple -
                                          |               |   6---------------  Contactor------------------- coil RELAY--------- heater
                                          |               |   7---------------- Contactor------------------- coil RELAY--------- heater
                                          ----------------                                                        AC   AC
                                            9      10                                                            IN    IN
                                           AC    AC
                                            IN    IN

                                          Hope this helps
                                          Jeri



                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: grainbrewer <gavin_flett@...>
                                          To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Sat, Nov 17, 2012 11:42 am
                                          Subject: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                           
                                          I recently purchased a PID Controller. Not being at all familiar with electronics, I am having a very difficult time understanding the instructions. Is it possible for someone to read the instructions and translate them into lamens terms for me? Mostly I am unfamiliar with the wiring diagram and symbols.

                                          The PID is an Auberins SYL-2372 and I have a contacter to go with it model # CN-PBC302-120V.



                                        • Bob Glicksman
                                          The PID setup is intended to smooth this out somewhat. The data sheet specifies 1 deg F, but I don t know under what conditions they test this under. You
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Nov 22, 2012
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            The PID setup is intended to smooth this out somewhat.  The data sheet specifies 1 deg F, but I don't know under what conditions they test this under.  You have to follow the auto-tune procedure in the manual in order for its "fuzzy logic" to learn the time constants of your specific system and figure out when to cycle the heater power on and off so that it doesn't overshoot or undershoot as much as a simple thermostat would.  There is also a thermostat "on/off" mode, but configuring the controller for this mode will probably result in the same amount of overshoot that you experienced previously.  So use the PID mode with auto-tune and let us know who well this controller did for you.
                                             
                                            I personally much prefer controllers for SSRs, since SSRs can switch very fast and the PID controller can then use a one second cycle or less vs 100 second cycle for a contactor.  This has a much greater potential to keep a very even flow of heat and thus much tighter temperature control.  This PID controller does have an SSR output, but it is only for 3 amps - too little for your 2KW heater.  It is designed for use with an external contactor and you already have the contactor, so hook it up and see how well it works. 
                                             
                                            If you are trying to control heat to control proof in a still, you might be better off to try some sort of automatic reflux control vs trying to keep the heat input controlled very tightly.  The book:  http://www.amphora-society.com/Designing-and-Building-Automatic-Stills-2nd-Edition--by-Riku_p_3.html has a lot of good information about this. 
                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...>
                                            To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Thu, Nov 22, 2012 10:36 am
                                            Subject: RE: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                             
                                            Ok, so it sounds like a similar method of operation to my Johnston A-419 temperature controller which basically turned it on full blast for a bit, then turned it off. I saw temperature variances of up to 5 degrees. For instance I wanted to achieve a temperature of 64C, and it would end up all the way at 69C. Does the PID setup smooth out the heat fluctuations at all, a little bit or a lot?


                                            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                            From: bobg542492@...
                                            Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 13:17:21 -0500
                                            Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                             

                                            Gavin,
                                             
                                            I searched out the manual and you should wire it as Jeri suggests.  If you use an external contactor to control power to your heater, the PID controller will cycle it slowly -- turn it on for some number of seconds, then off and repeat every 100 seconds or so.  The heat output from the 2KW heater will vary as this happens, but the PID controller will attempt to hold the temperature as closely as possible.
                                             
                                            Bob
                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...>
                                            To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Wed, Nov 21, 2012 11:03 pm
                                            Subject: RE: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                             
                                            Guys, I don't know the first thing about PID's. The terms used are mostly foreign to me, hence my trouble so far. If this is the wrong setup, then someone please tell me what I need to run a 2000W heating element for a RIMS.


                                            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                            From: bobg542492@...
                                            Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:21:45 -0500
                                            Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                             

                                            Hi Jeri,
                                             
                                            As I said, no I do not have the technical manual.  I was just pointing out that proportional control of the heating element is not possible with an electromechnaical relay.  The heater is either on or off, and the relay cannot be cycled fast enough to make it pseudo-analog.  If a thermostate-like mode is supported by the PID controller, that is fine, as long as this type of operation is acceptable to Gavin.
                                             
                                            Bob
                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: laxt57 <laxt57@...>
                                            To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Wed, Nov 21, 2012 8:54 pm
                                            Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                             
                                            Hi Bob
                                            Did you read the technical publication  for this controller?
                                            SYL-2372
                                            I did
                                            Jeri



                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: Bob Glicksman <bobg542492@...>
                                            To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:42 pm
                                            Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                             
                                            I don't know this particular PID controller, but if it is going to use a PID algorithm (proportional-integral-differential control), then it needs to adjust the heater output, not just turn it on and off.  Some PIDs can rapidly switch an SSR in order to adjust the heat output.  They do this for turning on the relay for some number of AC half-cycles (about 16 ms each half cycle for 60 Hz AC), since the heater's response time is much slower and will average out the electric power being modulated in this way.  But this type of operation requires a fast electric power switching device (an SSR).  A contactor or other electromechanical relay is too slow to do this (and rapidly switching one on and off all of the time will wear it out in notime flat). 

                                            The only thing that you can realistically do with an electromechanical relay switching power to an electric heater is implement a "deadzone" type of control -- like an ordinary thermostat.  I'm not sure that this PID controller can do this.  Most PID controllers are far more expensive than a simple thermostat and there would be no reason to support this mode of operation.


                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: laxt57 <laxt57@...>
                                            To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Sun, Nov 18, 2012 1:03 pm
                                            Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                             
                                            Hi
                                            Sure, simple as piece of cake.
                                            The number 9 and 10 terminals provide power to the PID
                                            (only for the PID not the heating element)
                                            The 6 and 7 terminals control a relay for some sort of device
                                            The 4 and 5 terminals are input from a thermocouple

                                            So, I assume you are using this to control a heating element?
                                            To make it work, you will need contactor(relay) big enough to run
                                            your heating element.
                                            Also you will need a thermocouple  and a heating element of course
                                            The thermocouple is polarity sensitive, so you need to connect it
                                            the right way round, that is if you are asking form hot and you get cold
                                            swap 4 and 5

                                            ----------------
                                            |               |   4---------------- Thermocouple +
                                            |     PID     |   5---------------  Thermocouple -
                                            |               |   6---------------  Contactor------------------- coil RELAY--------- heater
                                            |               |   7---------------- Contactor------------------- coil RELAY--------- heater
                                            ----------------                                                        AC   AC
                                              9      10                                                            IN    IN
                                             AC    AC
                                              IN    IN

                                            Hope this helps
                                            Jeri



                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: grainbrewer <gavin_flett@...>
                                            To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Sat, Nov 17, 2012 11:42 am
                                            Subject: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                             
                                            I recently purchased a PID Controller. Not being at all familiar with electronics, I am having a very difficult time understanding the instructions. Is it possible for someone to read the instructions and translate them into lamens terms for me? Mostly I am unfamiliar with the wiring diagram and symbols.

                                            The PID is an Auberins SYL-2372 and I have a contacter to go with it model # CN-PBC302-120V.



                                          • Gavin Flett
                                            Cool, great info. I am actually using it for a barley mash process. So if I understand correctly, an SSR performs the same functions as a PID, but better? If
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Nov 22, 2012
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Cool, great info. I am actually using it for a barley mash process. So if I understand correctly, an SSR performs the same functions as a PID, but better? If this is the case, can I purchase one that will work with my heating element?


                                              To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                              From: bobg542492@...
                                              Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 14:06:38 -0500
                                              Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                               

                                              The PID setup is intended to smooth this out somewhat.  The data sheet specifies 1 deg F, but I don't know under what conditions they test this under.  You have to follow the auto-tune procedure in the manual in order for its "fuzzy logic" to learn the time constants of your specific system and figure out when to cycle the heater power on and off so that it doesn't overshoot or undershoot as much as a simple thermostat would.  There is also a thermostat "on/off" mode, but configuring the controller for this mode will probably result in the same amount of overshoot that you experienced previously.  So use the PID mode with auto-tune and let us know who well this controller did for you.
                                               
                                              I personally much prefer controllers for SSRs, since SSRs can switch very fast and the PID controller can then use a one second cycle or less vs 100 second cycle for a contactor.  This has a much greater potential to keep a very even flow of heat and thus much tighter temperature control.  This PID controller does have an SSR output, but it is only for 3 amps - too little for your 2KW heater.  It is designed for use with an external contactor and you already have the contactor, so hook it up and see how well it works. 
                                               
                                              If you are trying to control heat to control proof in a still, you might be better off to try some sort of automatic reflux control vs trying to keep the heat input controlled very tightly.  The book:  http://www.amphora-society.com/Designing-and-Building-Automatic-Stills-2nd-Edition--by-Riku_p_3.html has a lot of good information about this. 
                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...>
                                              To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Thu, Nov 22, 2012 10:36 am
                                              Subject: RE: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                               
                                              Ok, so it sounds like a similar method of operation to my Johnston A-419 temperature controller which basically turned it on full blast for a bit, then turned it off. I saw temperature variances of up to 5 degrees. For instance I wanted to achieve a temperature of 64C, and it would end up all the way at 69C. Does the PID setup smooth out the heat fluctuations at all, a little bit or a lot?


                                              To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                              From: bobg542492@...
                                              Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 13:17:21 -0500
                                              Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                               

                                              Gavin,
                                               
                                              I searched out the manual and you should wire it as Jeri suggests.  If you use an external contactor to control power to your heater, the PID controller will cycle it slowly -- turn it on for some number of seconds, then off and repeat every 100 seconds or so.  The heat output from the 2KW heater will vary as this happens, but the PID controller will attempt to hold the temperature as closely as possible.
                                               
                                              Bob
                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...>
                                              To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Wed, Nov 21, 2012 11:03 pm
                                              Subject: RE: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                               
                                              Guys, I don't know the first thing about PID's. The terms used are mostly foreign to me, hence my trouble so far. If this is the wrong setup, then someone please tell me what I need to run a 2000W heating element for a RIMS.


                                              To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                              From: bobg542492@...
                                              Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:21:45 -0500
                                              Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                               

                                              Hi Jeri,
                                               
                                              As I said, no I do not have the technical manual.  I was just pointing out that proportional control of the heating element is not possible with an electromechnaical relay.  The heater is either on or off, and the relay cannot be cycled fast enough to make it pseudo-analog.  If a thermostate-like mode is supported by the PID controller, that is fine, as long as this type of operation is acceptable to Gavin.
                                               
                                              Bob
                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: laxt57 <laxt57@...>
                                              To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Wed, Nov 21, 2012 8:54 pm
                                              Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                               
                                              Hi Bob
                                              Did you read the technical publication  for this controller?
                                              SYL-2372
                                              I did
                                              Jeri



                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: Bob Glicksman <bobg542492@...>
                                              To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:42 pm
                                              Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                               
                                              I don't know this particular PID controller, but if it is going to use a PID algorithm (proportional-integral-differential control), then it needs to adjust the heater output, not just turn it on and off.  Some PIDs can rapidly switch an SSR in order to adjust the heat output.  They do this for turning on the relay for some number of AC half-cycles (about 16 ms each half cycle for 60 Hz AC), since the heater's response time is much slower and will average out the electric power being modulated in this way.  But this type of operation requires a fast electric power switching device (an SSR).  A contactor or other electromechanical relay is too slow to do this (and rapidly switching one on and off all of the time will wear it out in notime flat). 

                                              The only thing that you can realistically do with an electromechanical relay switching power to an electric heater is implement a "deadzone" type of control -- like an ordinary thermostat.  I'm not sure that this PID controller can do this.  Most PID controllers are far more expensive than a simple thermostat and there would be no reason to support this mode of operation.


                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: laxt57 <laxt57@...>
                                              To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Sun, Nov 18, 2012 1:03 pm
                                              Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                               
                                              Hi
                                              Sure, simple as piece of cake.
                                              The number 9 and 10 terminals provide power to the PID
                                              (only for the PID not the heating element)
                                              The 6 and 7 terminals control a relay for some sort of device
                                              The 4 and 5 terminals are input from a thermocouple

                                              So, I assume you are using this to control a heating element?
                                              To make it work, you will need contactor(relay) big enough to run
                                              your heating element.
                                              Also you will need a thermocouple  and a heating element of course
                                              The thermocouple is polarity sensitive, so you need to connect it
                                              the right way round, that is if you are asking form hot and you get cold
                                              swap 4 and 5

                                              ----------------
                                              |               |   4---------------- Thermocouple +
                                              |     PID     |   5---------------  Thermocouple -
                                              |               |   6---------------  Contactor------------------- coil RELAY--------- heater
                                              |               |   7---------------- Contactor------------------- coil RELAY--------- heater
                                              ----------------                                                        AC   AC
                                                9      10                                                            IN    IN
                                               AC    AC
                                                IN    IN

                                              Hope this helps
                                              Jeri



                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: grainbrewer <gavin_flett@...>
                                              To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Sat, Nov 17, 2012 11:42 am
                                              Subject: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                               
                                              I recently purchased a PID Controller. Not being at all familiar with electronics, I am having a very difficult time understanding the instructions. Is it possible for someone to read the instructions and translate them into lamens terms for me? Mostly I am unfamiliar with the wiring diagram and symbols.

                                              The PID is an Auberins SYL-2372 and I have a contacter to go with it model # CN-PBC302-120V.




                                            • GGB
                                              ... No, they re completely different things. The PID is a logic brain that attempts according to the parameters you program in to shoot for a particular
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Nov 22, 2012
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                > Cool, great info. I am actually using it for a barley mash process. So if I understand correctly, an SSR performs the same functions as a PID, but better?

                                                No, they're completely different things. The PID is a logic "brain" that attempts according to the parameters you program in to shoot for a particular temperature. It determines how long the element is "on" or "off" and makes adjustments according to results.

                                                SSR stands for Solid State Relay. It's really just an electronic switch - it has no moving parts. It is the equivalent of the contactor but because the contactor has moving parts it is not capable of switching power off and on to the element frequently without destroying itself.

                                                Your PID itself is able to switch loads of up to 3 amps, but this is well short of 2000 Watts. Remember that Watts = Voltage x Amps. Re-arrange this formula to get W/V = A, and depending on what your voltage is this will tell you how many Amps capability you need.

                                                So you employ a contactor, or SSR, to do the heavy-duty switching because these are capable of handling many more amps.

                                                There is one thing to remember with a SSR, and that is if they fail they switch, as far as I understand, to full on and will not turn off. The SSR has its own connection to voltage mains. So, as with all setups like this, you should always supervise operation.

                                                Paul
                                              • Gavin Flett
                                                Now that s what I have been searching for. a lamens description of what a PID and an SSR does. Thanks How do the beer brewers do this then, what kind of W
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Nov 22, 2012
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Now that's what I have been searching for. a lamens description of what a PID and an SSR does. Thanks

                                                  How do the beer brewers do this then, what kind of W heating element do they use? Is it multiple low wattage elements?


                                                  To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                                  From: self.adhesive@...
                                                  Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 23:48:08 +0000
                                                  Subject: [new_distillers] Re: PID Controller

                                                   

                                                  > Cool, great info. I am actually using it for a barley mash process. So if I understand correctly, an SSR performs the same functions as a PID, but better?

                                                  No, they're completely different things. The PID is a logic "brain" that attempts according to the parameters you program in to shoot for a particular temperature. It determines how long the element is "on" or "off" and makes adjustments according to results.

                                                  SSR stands for Solid State Relay. It's really just an electronic switch - it has no moving parts. It is the equivalent of the contactor but because the contactor has moving parts it is not capable of switching power off and on to the element frequently without destroying itself.

                                                  Your PID itself is able to switch loads of up to 3 amps, but this is well short of 2000 Watts. Remember that Watts = Voltage x Amps. Re-arrange this formula to get W/V = A, and depending on what your voltage is this will tell you how many Amps capability you need.

                                                  So you employ a contactor, or SSR, to do the heavy-duty switching because these are capable of handling many more amps.

                                                  There is one thing to remember with a SSR, and that is if they fail they switch, as far as I understand, to full on and will not turn off. The SSR has its own connection to voltage mains. So, as with all setups like this, you should always supervise operation.

                                                  Paul


                                                • Bob Glicksman
                                                  No. You would use an SSR in lieu of a contactor. An SSR can switch the AC power on and off very fast. A zero crossing SSR can cycle AC power every 1/2 cycle
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Nov 22, 2012
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    No.  You would use an SSR in lieu of a contactor.  An SSR can switch the AC power on and off very fast.  A zero crossing SSR can cycle AC power every 1/2 cycle - every 16.67 ms for 60 Hz power.  So a PID controller can then turn AC on and off to the heater for some number (1 - 120) of half-cycles per second.  A 2 KW heater will not even "see" this fast switching of the AC -- it will just average out the power, giving the PID controller fine grined control over the heat level without any "ripples".
                                                     
                                                    If you use a contactor in lieu of an SSR, the contactor cannot switch very fast.  The minimum time that you can turn the AC power on of off is perhaps 1 second.  So what YOUR PID controller (which is made for use with a contactor) will do is take a 100 second interval and turn the power on to your heater for some integral number of seconds every 100 seconds -- e.g. turn it on for 25 seconds and then off for 75 seconds to give 1/4 power.  Of course, your 2KW heater WILL respond well within a 100 second period and the PID controller will see it heating up (when power is on) and cooling down (when power is off).  However, the heater wil cycle this way only a small part of its heat range.  After all, it takes much longer than 100 seconds to fully heat up and much longer than 100 seconds to fully cool down.  Furthermore, if this controller is doing its job as advertised, it won't turn the heater on for 25 seconds and then off for 25 seconds -- it may turn it on every 4th second for one second only.  This woudl greatly smotth out the heter heat generation profile, but it will cycle the contactor more often and shorten its lifetime.  So your PID controller has some sort of proprietary logic in its programming to provide a best compromise over these actions.
                                                     
                                                    Bottom line:  your PID controller will work with an eletromechanical contactor.  Your model is specifically designed to do this.  It will do a better job of holding the heat constant than a simple thermostatic controller would, but there will be some heat variation owing to the limitations of how fast it can cycle the heater because it is using an electromechanical device (contactor).  Since you have these parts, go ahead and try it.  It will likely work well enough for you purposes.  If it doesn't, please post this result and then I woudl recommend getting a suitable SSR than can handle your 2KW load (at least 10 amps at 220 VAC).  I'll have to look through the data sheet of your controller more carefully to see if the cycling time can be decreased to make best use of an external SSR.  Since it has an internal SSR (not powerful enough to drive your heater directly, though), it may be possible to reconfigure it this way.  If you were to use an external SSR with a PID controller that cycled ona 1 second basis, you woudl be able to hold your temperature extremely steady-- probably more steady than you can reasonably measure.
                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                    From: Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...>
                                                    To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    Sent: Thu, Nov 22, 2012 2:41 pm
                                                    Subject: RE: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                                     
                                                    Cool, great info. I am actually using it for a barley mash process. So if I understand correctly, an SSR performs the same functions as a PID, but better? If this is the case, can I purchase one that will work with my heating element?


                                                    To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                                    From: bobg542492@...
                                                    Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 14:06:38 -0500
                                                    Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                                     

                                                    The PID setup is intended to smooth this out somewhat.  The data sheet specifies 1 deg F, but I don't know under what conditions they test this under.  You have to follow the auto-tune procedure in the manual in order for its "fuzzy logic" to learn the time constants of your specific system and figure out when to cycle the heater power on and off so that it doesn't overshoot or undershoot as much as a simple thermostat would.  There is also a thermostat "on/off" mode, but configuring the controller for this mode will probably result in the same amount of overshoot that you experienced previously.  So use the PID mode with auto-tune and let us know who well this controller did for you.
                                                     
                                                    I personally much prefer controllers for SSRs, since SSRs can switch very fast and the PID controller can then use a one second cycle or less vs 100 second cycle for a contactor.  This has a much greater potential to keep a very even flow of heat and thus much tighter temperature control.  This PID controller does have an SSR output, but it is only for 3 amps - too little for your 2KW heater.  It is designed for use with an external contactor and you already have the contactor, so hook it up and see how well it works. 
                                                     
                                                    If you are trying to control heat to control proof in a still, you might be better off to try some sort of automatic reflux control vs trying to keep the heat input controlled very tightly.  The book:  http://www.amphora-society.com/Designing-and-Building-Automatic-Stills-2nd-Edition--by-Riku_p_3.html has a lot of good information about this. 
                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                    From: Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...>
                                                    To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    Sent: Thu, Nov 22, 2012 10:36 am
                                                    Subject: RE: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                                     
                                                    Ok, so it sounds like a similar method of operation to my Johnston A-419 temperature controller which basically turned it on full blast for a bit, then turned it off. I saw temperature variances of up to 5 degrees. For instance I wanted to achieve a temperature of 64C, and it would end up all the way at 69C. Does the PID setup smooth out the heat fluctuations at all, a little bit or a lot?


                                                    To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                                    From: bobg542492@...
                                                    Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 13:17:21 -0500
                                                    Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                                     

                                                    Gavin,
                                                     
                                                    I searched out the manual and you should wire it as Jeri suggests.  If you use an external contactor to control power to your heater, the PID controller will cycle it slowly -- turn it on for some number of seconds, then off and repeat every 100 seconds or so.  The heat output from the 2KW heater will vary as this happens, but the PID controller will attempt to hold the temperature as closely as possible.
                                                     
                                                    Bob
                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                    From: Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...>
                                                    To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    Sent: Wed, Nov 21, 2012 11:03 pm
                                                    Subject: RE: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                                     
                                                    Guys, I don't know the first thing about PID's. The terms used are mostly foreign to me, hence my trouble so far. If this is the wrong setup, then someone please tell me what I need to run a 2000W heating element for a RIMS.


                                                    To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                                    From: bobg542492@...
                                                    Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:21:45 -0500
                                                    Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                                     

                                                    Hi Jeri,
                                                     
                                                    As I said, no I do not have the technical manual.  I was just pointing out that proportional control of the heating element is not possible with an electromechnaical relay.  The heater is either on or off, and the relay cannot be cycled fast enough to make it pseudo-analog.  If a thermostate-like mode is supported by the PID controller, that is fine, as long as this type of operation is acceptable to Gavin.
                                                     
                                                    Bob
                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                    From: laxt57 <laxt57@...>
                                                    To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    Sent: Wed, Nov 21, 2012 8:54 pm
                                                    Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                                     
                                                    Hi Bob
                                                    Did you read the technical publication  for this controller?
                                                    SYL-2372
                                                    I did
                                                    Jeri



                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                    From: Bob Glicksman <bobg542492@...>
                                                    To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    Sent: Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:42 pm
                                                    Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                                     
                                                    I don't know this particular PID controller, but if it is going to use a PID algorithm (proportional-integral-differential control), then it needs to adjust the heater output, not just turn it on and off.  Some PIDs can rapidly switch an SSR in order to adjust the heat output.  They do this for turning on the relay for some number of AC half-cycles (about 16 ms each half cycle for 60 Hz AC), since the heater's response time is much slower and will average out the electric power being modulated in this way.  But this type of operation requires a fast electric power switching device (an SSR).  A contactor or other electromechanical relay is too slow to do this (and rapidly switching one on and off all of the time will wear it out in notime flat). 

                                                    The only thing that you can realistically do with an electromechanical relay switching power to an electric heater is implement a "deadzone" type of control -- like an ordinary thermostat.  I'm not sure that this PID controller can do this.  Most PID controllers are far more expensive than a simple thermostat and there would be no reason to support this mode of operation.


                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                    From: laxt57 <laxt57@...>
                                                    To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    Sent: Sun, Nov 18, 2012 1:03 pm
                                                    Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                                     
                                                    Hi
                                                    Sure, simple as piece of cake.
                                                    The number 9 and 10 terminals provide power to the PID
                                                    (only for the PID not the heating element)
                                                    The 6 and 7 terminals control a relay for some sort of device
                                                    The 4 and 5 terminals are input from a thermocouple

                                                    So, I assume you are using this to control a heating element?
                                                    To make it work, you will need contactor(relay) big enough to run
                                                    your heating element.
                                                    Also you will need a thermocouple  and a heating element of course
                                                    The thermocouple is polarity sensitive, so you need to connect it
                                                    the right way round, that is if you are asking form hot and you get cold
                                                    swap 4 and 5

                                                    ----------------
                                                    |               |   4---------------- Thermocouple +
                                                    |     PID     |   5---------------  Thermocouple -
                                                    |               |   6---------------  Contactor------------------- coil RELAY--------- heater
                                                    |               |   7---------------- Contactor------------------- coil RELAY--------- heater
                                                    ----------------                                                        AC   AC
                                                      9      10                                                            IN    IN
                                                     AC    AC
                                                      IN    IN

                                                    Hope this helps
                                                    Jeri



                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                    From: grainbrewer <gavin_flett@...>
                                                    To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    Sent: Sat, Nov 17, 2012 11:42 am
                                                    Subject: [new_distillers] PID Controller

                                                     
                                                    I recently purchased a PID Controller. Not being at all familiar with electronics, I am having a very difficult time understanding the instructions. Is it possible for someone to read the instructions and translate them into lamens terms for me? Mostly I am unfamiliar with the wiring diagram and symbols.

                                                    The PID is an Auberins SYL-2372 and I have a contacter to go with it model # CN-PBC302-120V.




                                                  • Bob Glicksman
                                                    I m not an expert at beer brewing, but I doubt that the temperature has to be held absolutely steady e.g. to less than +/-0.1 deg C of the desired temperature.
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Nov 22, 2012
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      I'm not an expert at beer brewing, but I doubt that the temperature has to be held absolutely steady e.g. to less than +/-0.1 deg C of the desired temperature.  I'm somewhat surprised that your previous, simple thermostatic controller wasn't acceptable.  I wouldn't think that the temperature wandering around within a few degrees of the desired temperature would make much of a difference to the biochemcial processes at work here, as long as the desired temperature was optimized for the enzymes, pH , etc.  However, if you want to minimize this "wandering around" and have the temperature come up to some point and stay there rock solid, then you want to use a PID controller, as you are doing.  There is no disputing this!  The only issue here is whether actually having the PID controller use an electromechanical contactor to cycle the AC power to your heater reduces the "wandering" down to an acceptable level.  If not, you need to have the PID controller operate a faster device in order to cycle the AC power faster -- and this device would be an SSR.
                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                      From: Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...>
                                                      To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                                      Sent: Thu, Nov 22, 2012 4:20 pm
                                                      Subject: RE: [new_distillers] Re: PID Controller

                                                       
                                                      Now that's what I have been searching for. a lamens description of what a PID and an SSR does. Thanks

                                                      How do the beer brewers do this then, what kind of W heating element do they use? Is it multiple low wattage elements?


                                                      To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                                      From: self.adhesive@...
                                                      Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 23:48:08 +0000
                                                      Subject: [new_distillers] Re: PID Controller

                                                       

                                                      > Cool, great info. I am actually using it for a barley mash process. So if I understand correctly, an SSR performs the same functions as a PID, but better?

                                                      No, they're completely different things. The PID is a logic "brain" that attempts according to the parameters you program in to shoot for a particular temperature. It determines how long the element is "on" or "off" and makes adjustments according to results.

                                                      SSR stands for Solid State Relay. It's really just an electronic switch - it has no moving parts. It is the equivalent of the contactor but because the contactor has moving parts it is not capable of switching power off and on to the element frequently without destroying itself.

                                                      Your PID itself is able to switch loads of up to 3 amps, but this is well short of 2000 Watts. Remember that Watts = Voltage x Amps. Re-arrange this formula to get W/V = A, and depending on what your voltage is this will tell you how many Amps capability you need.

                                                      So you employ a contactor, or SSR, to do the heavy-duty switching because these are capable of handling many more amps.

                                                      There is one thing to remember with a SSR, and that is if they fail they switch, as far as I understand, to full on and will not turn off. The SSR has its own connection to voltage mains. So, as with all setups like this, you should always supervise operation.

                                                      Paul


                                                    • Gavin Flett
                                                      Once again,great info, thanks so much for the explanation To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com From: bobg542492@aol.com Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 00:25:52 -0500
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Nov 23, 2012
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                                                        Once again,great info, thanks so much for the explanation

                                                        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                                        From: bobg542492@...
                                                        Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 00:25:52 -0500
                                                        Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: PID Controller

                                                         

                                                        I'm not an expert at beer brewing, but I doubt that the temperature has to be held absolutely steady e.g. to less than +/-0.1 deg C of the desired temperature.  I'm somewhat surprised that your previous, simple thermostatic controller wasn't acceptable.  I wouldn't think that the temperature wandering around within a few degrees of the desired temperature would make much of a difference to the biochemcial processes at work here, as long as the desired temperature was optimized for the enzymes, pH , etc.  However, if you want to minimize this "wandering around" and have the temperature come up to some point and stay there rock solid, then you want to use a PID controller, as you are doing.  There is no disputing this!  The only issue here is whether actually having the PID controller use an electromechanical contactor to cycle the AC power to your heater reduces the "wandering" down to an acceptable level.  If not, you need to have the PID controller operate a faster device in order to cycle the AC power faster -- and this device would be an SSR.
                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                        From: Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...>
                                                        To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                                        Sent: Thu, Nov 22, 2012 4:20 pm
                                                        Subject: RE: [new_distillers] Re: PID Controller

                                                         
                                                        Now that's what I have been searching for. a lamens description of what a PID and an SSR does. Thanks

                                                        How do the beer brewers do this then, what kind of W heating element do they use? Is it multiple low wattage elements?


                                                        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                                        From: self.adhesive@...
                                                        Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 23:48:08 +0000
                                                        Subject: [new_distillers] Re: PID Controller

                                                         

                                                        > Cool, great info. I am actually using it for a barley mash process. So if I understand correctly, an SSR performs the same functions as a PID, but better?

                                                        No, they're completely different things. The PID is a logic "brain" that attempts according to the parameters you program in to shoot for a particular temperature. It determines how long the element is "on" or "off" and makes adjustments according to results.

                                                        SSR stands for Solid State Relay. It's really just an electronic switch - it has no moving parts. It is the equivalent of the contactor but because the contactor has moving parts it is not capable of switching power off and on to the element frequently without destroying itself.

                                                        Your PID itself is able to switch loads of up to 3 amps, but this is well short of 2000 Watts. Remember that Watts = Voltage x Amps. Re-arrange this formula to get W/V = A, and depending on what your voltage is this will tell you how many Amps capability you need.

                                                        So you employ a contactor, or SSR, to do the heavy-duty switching because these are capable of handling many more amps.

                                                        There is one thing to remember with a SSR, and that is if they fail they switch, as far as I understand, to full on and will not turn off. The SSR has its own connection to voltage mains. So, as with all setups like this, you should always supervise operation.

                                                        Paul



                                                      • laxt57@aol.com
                                                        Hi Well, er, ah,mumble*%#** I hate to butt in. But you could use a solid state contactor Switch on and off lots without issue Jeri ... From: Bob Glicksman
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Nov 25, 2012
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                                                          Hi
                                                          Well, er, ah,mumble*%#** I hate to butt in.
                                                          But you could use a solid state contactor
                                                          Switch on and off lots without issue
                                                          Jeri







                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                          From: Bob Glicksman <bobg542492@...>
                                                          To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                                          Sent: Thu, Nov 22, 2012 11:17 pm
                                                          Subject: Re: [new_distillers] PID Controller






                                                          No. You would use an SSR in lieu of a contactor.
                                                        • Fredrick Lee
                                                          Gavin, I own a 12HL (a little less than 300 gallons) brewery and we use a 6000W RIMS tube for our mash tun temp changes. Two things we have solved that have
                                                          Message 28 of 28 , Nov 26, 2012
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                                                            Gavin,
                                                               I own a 12HL (a little less than 300 gallons) brewery and we use a 6000W RIMS tube for our mash tun temp changes. Two things we have solved that have made this possible. 

                                                            1.) We realized not only did we need to know the temp of the grain bed (mash temp), we also needed to know the temp of our RIMS tube output (rims temp).  We were recirculating our wort out of the RIMS back into the mash tun near the top (I think some breweries call this the "vorlauf"). This freshly heated wort would remain at the top of the mash, and only slowly work it's way down until it was replaced by enough hot wort to reach the thermometer. Often overshooting your the mash temp and denaturing the enzymes that were responsible for starch conversion; depending when this occurs, we could end up with significantly less sugar to ferment.  We solved this problem by averaging the mash temp and the rims temp. Most PIDs cannot do this, so for a while we used pencil and paper with a manual thermometer on the mash tun and PID (with SSR) on the RIMS tube. After a bit of mucking around we discovered this problem on our 100liter (about 20 gals) system too. 

                                                            2) we feel like everyone should take good care to have a gentle vorlauf, it will rebuild the grain bed to act as a filter for the husks and whatnot. Clear flowing wort ferments better and leaves less residue in your kettles and fermenters. Low splashing and avoiding wort from channeling through the grain bed will make things much better for in the boil and subsequently whirlpooling, chilling and fermenting. 


                                                            On Nov 22, 2012, at 7:20 PM, Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...> wrote:

                                                             

                                                            Now that's what I have been searching for. a lamens description of what a PID and an SSR does. Thanks

                                                            How do the beer brewers do this then, what kind of W heating element do they use? Is it multiple low wattage elements?


                                                            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                                            From: self.adhesive@...
                                                            Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 23:48:08 +0000
                                                            Subject: [new_distillers] Re: PID Controller

                                                             

                                                            > Cool, great info. I am actually using it for a barley mash process. So if I understand correctly, an SSR performs the same functions as a PID, but better?

                                                            No, they're completely different things. The PID is a logic "brain" that attempts according to the parameters you program in to shoot for a particular temperature. It determines how long the element is "on" or "off" and makes adjustments according to results.

                                                            SSR stands for Solid State Relay. It's really just an electronic switch - it has no moving parts. It is the equivalent of the contactor but because the contactor has moving parts it is not capable of switching power off and on to the element frequently without destroying itself.

                                                            Your PID itself is able to switch loads of up to 3 amps, but this is well short of 2000 Watts. Remember that Watts = Voltage x Amps. Re-arrange this formula to get W/V = A, and depending on what your voltage is this will tell you how many Amps capability you need.

                                                            So you employ a contactor, or SSR, to do the heavy-duty switching because these are capable of handling many more amps.

                                                            There is one thing to remember with a SSR, and that is if they fail they switch, as far as I understand, to full on and will not turn off. The SSR has its own connection to voltage mains. So, as with all setups like this, you should always supervise operation.

                                                            Paul


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