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Hydroseparation

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  • gavinflett
    Hello, I need clarity on something involving hydroseparation. Do I need to syphon off the famed middle layer (how much is the middle layer in terms of
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 15, 2012
      Hello, I need clarity on something involving hydroseparation. Do I need to syphon off the famed middle layer (how much is the middle layer in terms of percentages) on my low wines after hydrseparation? Or is it done just on the feints?

      Please don't quote any texts or refer me to any articles, as I have read them, all of them in fact. And I have not found any conclusive statements as to wether or not this is performed.
    • geoff burrows
      If you have 3 feet of fluid it s the middle put a syphon tube one and a half foot blow the surface and syphon off untill there is only 2 foot of fluid left
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 15, 2012
        If you have 3 feet of fluid it's the middle put a syphon tube one and a half foot blow the surface and syphon off untill there is only 2 foot of fluid left then you have taken the middle section
        Geofffoot start
      • gavinflett
        Thanks Geoff One more thing I wanted to ask about the low wines. After separating the low wines and syphoning off the spirit run charge, what do I do with the
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 15, 2012
          Thanks Geoff

          One more thing I wanted to ask about the low wines. After separating the low wines and syphoning off the spirit run charge, what do I do with the left over oily stuff from the low wines?

          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "geoff burrows" <jeffrey.burrows@...> wrote:
          >
          > If you have 3 feet of fluid it's the middle put a syphon tube one and a half foot blow the surface and syphon off untill there is only 2 foot of fluid left then you have taken the middle section
          > Geofffoot start
          >
        • Gavin Flett
          Sorry Geoff, one more thing... So let me get this straight, out of a 20L wash at 8%ABV I am getting 4.8L of low wines at 30% (1.6L of 100%). Then out of that,
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 15, 2012
            Sorry Geoff, one more thing...

            So let me get this straight, out of a 20L wash at 8%ABV I am getting 4.8L of low wines at 30% (1.6L of 100%). Then out of that, I syphon off 1/3, which gets me 1.6L of 30%ABV. I put that in my spirit still and make further cuts?

            Basically, if I am understanding this correct, I get about 800ml of 75%ABV potable whiskey from a 20L wash?


            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
            From: jeffrey.burrows@...
            Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 00:44:43 +0100
            Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Hydroseparation

             

            If you have 3 feet of fluid it's the middle put a syphon tube one and a half foot blow the surface and syphon off untill there is only 2 foot of fluid left then you have taken the middle section
            Geofffoot start

          • Harry
            You DO NOT hydroseparate low wines. Yo DO hydroseparate feints, and add that portion to your next spirit still (low wines) charge. Yes you have read it all,
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 15, 2012
              You DO NOT hydroseparate low wines. Yo DO hydroseparate feints, and add that portion to your next spirit still (low wines) charge. Yes you have read it all, but if you came to the wrong conclusion that you have, then you haven't understood it, at all. More study is required. We can only lead you so far. It's like school. Some effort & understanding is required on your part. Homework is involved also. Gotta break eggs to make omelettes.


              Slainte!
              regards harry
              ==============================

              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Sorry Geoff, one more thing...
              > So let me get this straight, out of a 20L wash at 8%ABV I am getting 4.8L of low wines at 30% (1.6L of 100%). Then out of that, I syphon off 1/3, which gets me 1.6L of 30%ABV. I put that in my spirit still and make further cuts?
              > Basically, if I am understanding this correct, I get about 800ml of 75%ABV potable whiskey from a 20L wash?
              >
              > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
              > From: jeffrey.burrows@...
              > Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 00:44:43 +0100
              > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Hydroseparation
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              > If you have 3 feet of fluid it's the middle put a
              > syphon tube one and a half foot blow the surface and syphon off untill there is
              > only 2 foot of fluid left then you have taken the middle section
              > Geofffoot start
              >
            • Gavin Flett
              Thanks for clearing that up Harry. As there are a lot of posts that have conflicting information (a couple of them said separate the low wines) I need clarity
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 15, 2012
                Thanks for clearing that up Harry. As there are a lot of posts that have conflicting information (a couple of them said separate the low wines) I need clarity on these things by having experts weigh in with their opinions.

                What happens to the parts of the feints that I separated? Do I just chuck it?


                To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                From: gnikomson2000@...
                Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 01:47:49 +0000
                Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Hydroseparation

                 
                You DO NOT hydroseparate low wines. Yo DO hydroseparate feints, and add that portion to your next spirit still (low wines) charge. Yes you have read it all, but if you came to the wrong conclusion that you have, then you haven't understood it, at all. More study is required. We can only lead you so far. It's like school. Some effort & understanding is required on your part. Homework is involved also. Gotta break eggs to make omelettes.

                Slainte!
                regards harry
                ==============================

                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Sorry Geoff, one more thing...
                > So let me get this straight, out of a 20L wash at 8%ABV I am getting 4.8L of low wines at 30% (1.6L of 100%). Then out of that, I syphon off 1/3, which gets me 1.6L of 30%ABV. I put that in my spirit still and make further cuts?
                > Basically, if I am understanding this correct, I get about 800ml of 75%ABV potable whiskey from a 20L wash?
                >
                > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                > From: jeffrey.burrows@...
                > Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 00:44:43 +0100
                > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Hydroseparation
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                > If you have 3 feet of fluid it's the middle put a
                > syphon tube one and a half foot blow the surface and syphon off untill there is
                > only 2 foot of fluid left then you have taken the middle section
                > Geofffoot start
                >


              • Harry
                As I said before you add that portion (that is, the salvaged portion)of the feints to your next spirit still (low wines) charge for distillation. The portions
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 15, 2012
                  As I said before you add that portion (that is, the salvaged portion)of the feints to your next spirit still (low wines) charge for distillation.

                  The portions of feints rejected and remaining after the hydroseparation, are combined with the spent grains, pot ale and other distillery effluent, for processing into DDG's (dried distillers grains) and subsequent sale as animal feed; a significant revenue earner for the distillery.


                  Slainte!
                  regards Harry
                  ===================================

                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Thanks for clearing that up Harry. As there are a lot of posts that have conflicting information (a couple of them said separate the low wines) I need clarity on these things by having experts weigh in with their opinions.
                  > What happens to the parts of the feints that I separated? Do I just chuck it?
                  >
                  > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  > From: gnikomson2000@...
                  > Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 01:47:49 +0000
                  > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Hydroseparation
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                  > You DO NOT hydroseparate low wines. Yo DO hydroseparate feints, and add that portion to your next spirit still (low wines) charge. Yes you have read it all, but if you came to the wrong conclusion that you have, then you haven't understood it, at all. More study is required. We can only lead you so far. It's like school. Some effort & understanding is required on your part. Homework is involved also. Gotta break eggs to make omelettes.
                  >
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                  > Slainte!
                  >
                  > regards harry
                  >
                  > ==============================
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                  > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@> wrote:
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                  > > Sorry Geoff, one more thing...
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                  > > So let me get this straight, out of a 20L wash at 8%ABV I am getting 4.8L of low wines at 30% (1.6L of 100%). Then out of that, I syphon off 1/3, which gets me 1.6L of 30%ABV. I put that in my spirit still and make further cuts?
                  >
                  > > Basically, if I am understanding this correct, I get about 800ml of 75%ABV potable whiskey from a 20L wash?
                  >
                  > >
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                  > > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > > From: jeffrey.burrows@
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                  > > Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 00:44:43 +0100
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                  > > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Hydroseparation
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                  > > If you have 3 feet of fluid it's the middle put a
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                  > > syphon tube one and a half foot blow the surface and syphon off untill there is
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                  > > only 2 foot of fluid left then you have taken the middle section
                  >
                  > > Geofffoot start
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                  >
                • Harry
                  Further to that, we in the hobby sector would employ the rejected portions of feints as ant killer, barbecue starter or perhaps auto parts wash. Slainte!
                  Message 8 of 13 , Feb 15, 2012
                    Further to that, we in the hobby sector would employ the rejected portions of feints as ant killer, barbecue starter or perhaps auto parts wash.


                    Slainte!
                    regards Harry
                    ========================

                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > As I said before you add that portion (that is, the salvaged portion)of the feints to your next spirit still (low wines) charge for distillation.
                    >
                    > The portions of feints rejected and remaining after the hydroseparation, are combined with the spent grains, pot ale and other distillery effluent, for processing into DDG's (dried distillers grains) and subsequent sale as animal feed; a significant revenue earner for the distillery.
                    >
                    >
                    > Slainte!
                    > regards Harry
                    > ===================================
                  • Gavin Flett
                    Thanks again Harry, all the pieces are in place now. maybe I ll try it out with my foreshots as an eco weed killer. The foreshots works well for that To:
                    Message 9 of 13 , Feb 15, 2012
                      Thanks again Harry, all the pieces are in place now.

                      maybe I'll try it out with my foreshots as an eco weed killer. The foreshots works well for that


                      To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      From: gnikomson2000@...
                      Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 05:01:11 +0000
                      Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Hydroseparation

                       
                      Further to that, we in the hobby sector would employ the rejected portions of feints as ant killer, barbecue starter or perhaps auto parts wash.

                      Slainte!
                      regards Harry
                      ========================

                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > As I said before you add that portion (that is, the salvaged portion)of the feints to your next spirit still (low wines) charge for distillation.
                      >
                      > The portions of feints rejected and remaining after the hydroseparation, are combined with the spent grains, pot ale and other distillery effluent, for processing into DDG's (dried distillers grains) and subsequent sale as animal feed; a significant revenue earner for the distillery.
                      >
                      >
                      > Slainte!
                      > regards Harry
                      > ===================================


                    • geoff burrows
                      Hi Gavin, Sorry about all the spelling goofs and general incoherency last night, it was a combination of fat fingers and a night out, eating one of the local
                      Message 10 of 13 , Feb 16, 2012

                        Hi Gavin,

                        Sorry about all the spelling goofs and general incoherency last night, it was a combination of fat fingers and a night out, eating one of the local French gourmet cuisines “Comfit de Canard” and drinking copious amounts of that thar red stuff they have here in lage cheap quantities. 

                             Then breaking the rule of posting while under the affluence of ink-er-hol (well being pissed)

                                 The boiling point of isopropyl alcohol the real smelly crappy stuff (i can't help useing these dead tecnical terms here) is lower but near enough that of ethanol (that would be our good drinking hooch) so essentially it is one and I say one of the lower boiling alcohols that will come off in the distillation first.  This is often referred to in days gone by as rubbing alcohol.  It’s generally referred to in our hobby as fore shots or heads.

                             As far as I’m concerned I treat them both as one and the same to be taken off and saved in a heads and tails jar, oily crap and all (sugar washes i.e. the MUM washes that generally I do) don’t have any oil crap.  But I have had it once in some plum wine I distilled   

                        Now even though the smell of this lower boiling alcohol would rip your nose clean off your face and severely deaden your taste buds for a few hours there is still a good deal of high grade drinking alcohol in this first 100ml or 200ml that people usually chuck away.  So I chuck it back into the next wash.  (I run an old reflux still)

                        If you still don’t like the idea of doing that use it as a rubbing alcohol on sore muscles etc. or use for lighting the bbq , or pour it down the nearest ant-hole it upsets the little shits no end especially when you torch them as well

                        Geoff  

                      • geoff burrows
                        Hi Gavin, My understanding of things is like this, the so called low wines is:- Your wash this is the low content alcohol fluid. The fist fast (strip) run
                        Message 11 of 13 , Feb 16, 2012

                           

                          Hi Gavin,

                          My understanding of things is like this, the so called low wines is:-

                          Your wash this is the low content alcohol fluid. 

                          The fist fast (strip) run through the still you say gave you the 4.8 L of 30 % abv this is your first distillation run(with flavours) of a lets say a total of three runs that would be triple distilled

                          Now the remaining 15.2L of your wash will still have a little alcohol in it (not a lot but a little) and a lot of very good flavours.

                          This 15.2L of wash is where you take your one third from to do your next run.

                          You don’t take it from your stripped 4.8 L of 30 % abv.  

                          This is the product of your first distillation and you must further dilute this product by adding the middle third of your 15.2L of wash)  

                          The reason you dilute you product down again like this is because high strength alc even at 30 % abv.  Although it my not seem strong, it would be sufficiently strong enough in alcohol content to make you work area very dangerous place to be, if put it into a boiler in such small amounts.

                               It  will boil extremely fast and neat very high grade alcohol will inevitably escape to the atmosphere creating a real fire hazard.  Even the spark from switching on a light switch in such a high ethanol saturated environment if dicey that’s why you add water or in this case the middle third of your wash (with the good original flavour in it).

                          On your next distillation you don’t run quite so fast and this has the effect (with that middle third of your wash again) of concentrating your flavour profile and raising the alcohol strength of your distillate at the same time.  the second distilation

                               You can do this again and you’ll have a very flavoursome triple distilled whiskey, brandy or whatever. the third of the triple distilation

                          It sounds complicated but its not

                          Geoff

                          PS

                          If you wash is 8 % abv there is only 8% of 100% pure gettable of ethanol in there, and in a 20L wash.

                           That would be 20L divided by 100 multiplied by 8 (your 8%) which =1.6Lof 100% alcohol which we as hobby distillers we would never hope to get, possibly at best you could get 95.6 % abv    

                          So hope for the best and plan for the worst.  If I’m wrong (which has known to have happened in the past) Wal or someone will correct me (see covering my arse again)

                          Geoff

                        • Gavin Flett
                          Thanks guys, I do have the just of it I just needed to refine my practice. I have been ageing a fair amount of single malt for a year now and when I tried it
                          Message 12 of 13 , Feb 16, 2012
                            Thanks guys, I do have the just of it I just needed to refine my practice. I have been ageing a fair amount of single malt for a year now and when I tried it the flavour didn't seem to moving in the direction that it should (fine single malt purchased from the liquor store). It had a much more fruity flavour than I wanted, but it did tickle my throat like Ardbeg does. So I thought I would re-visit my distilling practices.

                            Does diluting with backset really make that much difference in the flavour profile of the finished product?


                            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                            From: jeffrey.burrows@...
                            Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 11:06:20 +0100
                            Subject: RE: [new_distillers] Re: Hydroseparation

                             

                             

                            Hi Gavin,

                            My understanding of things is like this, the so called low wines is:-

                            Your wash this is the low content alcohol fluid. 

                            The fist fast (strip) run through the still you say gave you the 4.8 L of 30 % abv this is your first distillation run(with flavours) of a lets say a total of three runs that would be triple distilled

                            Now the remaining 15.2L of your wash will still have a little alcohol in it (not a lot but a little) and a lot of very good flavours.

                            This 15.2L of wash is where you take your one third from to do your next run.

                            You don’t take it from your stripped 4.8 L of 30 % abv.  

                            This is the product of your first distillation and you must further dilute this product by adding the middle third of your 15.2L of wash)  

                            The reason you dilute you product down again like this is because high strength alc even at 30 % abv.  Although it my not seem strong, it would be sufficiently strong enough in alcohol content to make you work area very dangerous place to be, if put it into a boiler in such small amounts.

                                 It  will boil extremely fast and neat very high grade alcohol will inevitably escape to the atmosphere creating a real fire hazard.  Even the spark from switching on a light switch in such a high ethanol saturated environment if dicey that’s why you add water or in this case the middle third of your wash (with the good original flavour in it).

                            On your next distillation you don’t run quite so fast and this has the effect (with that middle third of your wash again) of concentrating your flavour profile and raising the alcohol strength of your distillate at the same time.  the second distilation

                                 You can do this again and you’ll have a very flavoursome triple distilled whiskey, brandy or whatever. the third of the triple distilation

                            It sounds complicated but its not

                            Geoff

                            PS

                            If you wash is 8 % abv there is only 8% of 100% pure gettable of ethanol in there, and in a 20L wash.

                             That would be 20L divided by 100 multiplied by 8 (your 8%) which =1.6Lof 100% alcohol which we as hobby distillers we would never hope to get, possibly at best you could get 95.6 % abv    

                            So hope for the best and plan for the worst.  If I’m wrong (which has known to have happened in the past) Wal or someone will correct me (see covering my arse again)

                            Geoff


                          • Peter
                            Hi Guys What is the minimum number of days one should leave the feints (after combining heads and tails and diluting to 27%) for hydroseparation to take place.
                            Message 13 of 13 , Feb 25, 2012
                              Hi Guys

                              What is the minimum number of days one should leave the feints (after combining heads and tails and diluting to 27%) for hydroseparation to take place. I read somewhere that overnight is not ehough.
                              What effect would temperature have on this? What if I put the container in the 'fridge?
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