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Re: [new_distillers] Grain fermentation of single malt

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  • Fredrick Lee
    Alex, how will you boil the mash then cool it before inoculation? If you boil it on the grains, then you ll get exclusive airfare to tanninville. I ve read
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 8, 2012
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      Alex, how will you boil the mash then cool it before inoculation? If you boil it on the grains, then you'll get exclusive airfare to tanninville.  I've read about some anient Egyptian recipes where they boil with the grain. A more modern instance of boiling on the grain (partially) is decoction mashing, which uses a portion of the mash, boiled, to bring up the temp (such as changing between rests, or mashing out).  Three factors contribute to tannin extraction:

      1. Temp (168°F or less)

      2. pH  (5.8 or less)

      3. Time (about 60 minutes or less, at 160°F,  20 minutes or less, at 168°F, etc.)

      You can still (and will) get tannin extraction even if you are inside these ranges, but using those guidelines minimizes it.   Regardless your question was about fermenting on the grist and tannins, which I believe you are correct, it should not extract more tannins( the pH should be below 5.4 and falling), but I don't know what it does to the health of the yeast. I think there are some bad things in the barely hulls that hurt yeast fermentation.  

      Where did you hear about fermenting on the barley grist? I'd love to know more about this. 




      On Jan 8, 2012, at 21:15, "Alex Castillo" <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:

       


      Hi

      Is there any issue if fermenting on the grains an all malt mash? I know that traditionally in UK single malts are doubly mashed for maximum extraction and that sparging shouldn´t be done with high temp. water due to tannins passing to the wort, but I think that this possibility in nonexisting if fermenting on the grains.

      Thanks in advance for your comments.

      Alex

    • tgfoitwoods
      Alex and Fredrick, I m an allgrain brewer, and as Fredrick says, we try hard to minimize the tannins in our beers because they add a harsh taste. That s no
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 9, 2012
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        Alex and Fredrick,

        I'm an allgrain brewer, and as Fredrick says, we try hard to minimize the tannins in our beers because they add a harsh taste. That's no real hardship with barley, because barley sparges so nicely, and it's way easier to deal with simple liquid wort from a barley mash. Other grains like corn do not sparge easily, at least for me, so I ferment those on the grain, and extract the wort after all the fungal and bacterial processes have freed up the liquid wort as much as possible. Even then, I have trouble extracting liquid from corn ferments.

        Interestingly, when I taste the fermented corn beer, I don't taste objectionable flavors, but then I'm not as critical as I would be with a good beer that wouldn't be distilled. Do we know for sure that tannins in a barley beer will come through the still and cause a bad flavor in the whiskey? I've never thought of tannins as being particularly volatile, and I think they may not "come over".

        Any ideas?

        Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...> wrote:
        >
        > Alex, how will you boil the mash then cool it before inoculation? If you boil it on the grains, then you'll get exclusive airfare to tanninville. I've read about some anient Egyptian recipes where they boil with the grain. A more modern instance of boiling on the grain (partially) is decoction mashing, which uses a portion of the mash, boiled, to bring up the temp (such as changing between rests, or mashing out). Three factors contribute to tannin extraction:
        >
        > 1. Temp (168°F or less)
        >
        > 2. pH (5.8 or less)
        >
        > 3. Time (about 60 minutes or less, at 160°F, 20 minutes or less, at 168°F, etc.)
        >
        > You can still (and will) get tannin extraction even if you are inside these ranges, but using those guidelines minimizes it. Regardless your question was about fermenting on the grist and tannins, which I believe you are correct, it should not extract more tannins( the pH should be below 5.4 and falling), but I don't know what it does to the health of the yeast. I think there are some bad things in the barely hulls that hurt yeast fermentation.
        >
        > Where did you hear about fermenting on the barley grist? I'd love to know more about this.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > On Jan 8, 2012, at 21:15, "Alex Castillo" castillo.alex2008@... wrote:
        >
        > >
        > > Hi
        > >
        > > Is there any issue if fermenting on the grains an all malt mash? I know that traditionally in UK single malts are doubly mashed for maximum extraction and that sparging shouldn´t be done with high temp. water due to tannins passing to the wort, but I think that this possibility in nonexisting if fermenting on the grains.
        > >
        > > Thanks in advance for your comments.
        > >
        > > Alex
        > >
        > >
        >
      • Alex Castillo
        Hi Thanks for both replies, Fredrick´s and Z.B. Frederick, who mentioned boiling? Bet you are thinking as a beer brewer where you have to boil. The plan is
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 9, 2012
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          Hi

          Thanks for both replies, Fredrick´s and Z.B.

          Frederick, who mentioned boiling? Bet you are thinking as a beer brewer where you have to boil. The plan is to get a simple infusion mashing (i.e. 5 gal. water + 10 lbs. malt) then cool, pitch yeast, filter and distill. Please notice that "sparging" (which is rinsing grains after mashing) had been substituted by "filter" which comes after fermentation. My concern is tannings (astringency) passing to the low wines. I ask before this experiment ´cause I´d hate to ruin 8-10 lbs. of malt since is very costly for me. It has to travel all the way from US to my island... and that´s expensive.

          Alex
        • Alex Castillo
          ZB My real concern is about lautering. As you have to use the same amount or 1.5 times more water to sparge, in order to extract most of the sugars from the
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 9, 2012
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            ZB

            My real concern is about lautering. As you have to use the same amount or 1.5 times more water to sparge, in order to extract most of the sugars from the mash, that implies the use of multiple pots and much total volume both, for fermenting and distilling. If fermenting on the grains, is assumed that all fermentable sugars present will be used, grain will be exhausted, making even easier their filtering and this pre-distilling lautering wouldn´t require any grain rinsing (my thought).

            How´s that? Doesn´t it worth a try?

            Alex
          • Fredrick Lee
            Well, I mentioned boiling because I figured you didn t want the natural yeasts in barely contributing to fermentation, I have no idea what will happen and I m
            Message 5 of 9 , Jan 9, 2012
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              Well, I mentioned boiling because I figured you didn't want the natural yeasts in barely contributing to fermentation, I have no idea what will happen and I'm probably going to try this with some 2-row.  I am excited to hear how this goes. I expect though, that you will have a tough time getting your yeasts to work as they are competing against a whole bunch of wild yeast already present in the barley. The time/temp point for pasteurization for 10 lbs of grain will probably be good for tannin extraction, but it may not matter if tannins aren't so volitile. I'll look it up and report back. 

              On Jan 9, 2012, at 9:57, "Alex Castillo" <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:

               


              Hi

              Thanks for both replies, Fredrick´s and Z.B.

              Frederick, who mentioned boiling? Bet you are thinking as a beer brewer where you have to boil. The plan is to get a simple infusion mashing (i.e. 5 gal. water + 10 lbs. malt) then cool, pitch yeast, filter and distill. Please notice that "sparging" (which is rinsing grains after mashing) had been substituted by "filter" which comes after fermentation. My concern is tannings (astringency) passing to the low wines. I ask before this experiment ´cause I´d hate to ruin 8-10 lbs. of malt since is very costly for me. It has to travel all the way from US to my island... and that´s expensive.

              Alex

            • Harry
              ... real ... grains ... then, ... a ... Correct, ZBob. Tannins are NOT volatile. Therefore they won t come over in simple distillation. Quote There s no
              Message 6 of 9 , Jan 9, 2012
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                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
                >
                > Alex and Fredrick,
                >
                > I'm an allgrain brewer, and as Fredrick says, we try hard to minimize
                > the tannins in our beers because they add a harsh taste. That's no real
                > hardship with barley, because barley sparges so nicely, and it's way
                > easier to deal with simple liquid wort from a barley mash. Other grains
                > like corn do not sparge easily, at least for me, so I ferment those on
                > the grain, and extract the wort after all the fungal and bacterial
                > processes have freed up the liquid wort as much as possible. Even then,
                > I have trouble extracting liquid from corn ferments.
                >
                > Interestingly, when I taste the fermented corn beer, I don't taste
                > objectionable flavors, but then I'm not as critical as I would be with a
                > good beer that wouldn't be distilled. Do we know for sure that tannins
                > in a barley beer will come through the still and cause a bad flavor in
                > the whiskey? I've never thought of tannins as being particularly
                > volatile, and I think they may not "come over".
                >
                > Any ideas?
                >
                > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits
                > http://kelleybarts.com/MFS.html

                Correct, ZBob.  Tannins are NOT volatile.  Therefore they won't 'come over' in simple distillation.

                Quote

                There's no evidence that aeration changes the level of tannins, which gives wine its astringency, because tannins are not volatile.

                End quote

                Source: 

                Wine Aerators - Cooks Illustrated
                Published July 1, 2009.
                http://www.cooksillustrated.com/equipment/overview.asp?docid=19952

                Slainte!
                regards Harry

              • Alex Castillo
                Fredrick Good idea, I´ll try it with 10 lbs. of 2-row, and now after Harry´s input, comes to me the idea of mashing and fermenting in the same vessel: the 25
                Message 7 of 9 , Jan 9, 2012
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                  Fredrick

                  Good idea, I´ll try it with 10 lbs. of 2-row, and now after Harry´s input, comes to me the idea of mashing and fermenting in the same vessel: the 25 liters bucket I use as a fermenter. Hopefully if not using WD yeast, could use EC-1118 which is a killer strain which will get rid of those unwanted yeast you mentioned. I´ll let you know how it went.

                  Alex
                • Gordy S
                  I have been told that the tannins do not carry over into the flavor of the alcohol. Just my two cents!
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jan 12, 2012
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                    I have been told that the tannins do not carry over into the flavor of the alcohol. Just my two cents!

                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Castillo" <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi
                    >
                    > Thanks for both replies, Fredrick´s and Z.B.
                    >
                    > Frederick, who mentioned boiling? Bet you are thinking as a beer brewer where you have to boil. The plan is to get a simple infusion mashing (i.e. 5 gal. water + 10 lbs. malt) then cool, pitch yeast, filter and distill. Please notice that "sparging" (which is rinsing grains after mashing) had been substituted by "filter" which comes after fermentation. My concern is tannings (astringency) passing to the low wines. I ask before this experiment ´cause I´d hate to ruin 8-10 lbs. of malt since is very costly for me. It has to travel all the way from US to my island... and that´s expensive.
                    >
                    > Alex
                    >
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