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Re: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Whiskey TURBO GOOD !

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  • John Brase
    I am not going to presume to answer for Harry, who knows more about the matter than I. But I will happily give you my answers to your questions. Lower strength
    Message 1 of 27 , Jan 8, 2012
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      I am not going to presume to answer for Harry, who knows more about the matter than I. But I will happily give you my answers to your questions.

      Lower strength does indeed mean a lower initial specific gravity (OG). An OG of 1.090, with a potential finished ABV of around 12% is as high as I ever want to go. Most times I shoot for 1.080 (depending on what I am making - an all grain mash, for example, won't be anywhere near that high). It doesn't matter what the yeast is "rated for." The yeast cells will begin to stress as the ABV rises. You want the sugar to be depleted and the wash finished before the yeast goes into stress and starts producing sulfur like compounds.

      If you do it right by keeping the wash in the "happy" range for the yeast, and making sure they have sufficient nutrients during the fermentation, they stay healthy till all the fermentable sugars are converted to alcohol and Co2, at which point they quietly go dormant and sink to the bottom without leaving all the nasties in your wash.

      Greed is the bane of artisan distiller.


      On 1/8/2012 5:45 PM, M L wrote:  

      By lower strength do you mean a lower OG? Does it just have to be lower than what the yeast is rated for ? And by stress do you mean that asking a yeast to ferment to it's death stresses it. I'm  trying to gain as much knowledge as I can from the expertise of others. ML
      '
      --- On Sun, 1/8/12, Harry <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:

      From: Harry <gnikomson2000@...>
      Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Whiskey TURBO GOOD !
      To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sunday, January 8, 2012, 5:19 AM

       

      When you guys click to the fact that lower strength washes produce the best products, you will begin to get worthwhile repeatable results from this wonderful hobby.

      Yeast under max stress makes shit rocket fuel.

      Slainte!
      regards Harry
      =========================

      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, M L <kekedog13@...> wrote:
      >
      > The reason for Turbo yeast is because it will keep fermenting up to 23% alc. and most wine yeasts stop at around 16%. Thus  getting you the most alc. possible from your' wash or mash. MarkL.
      >
      >


    • geoff burrows
      Hi ML, Traditionally for hundreds of years we had beer in the early times made from wild yeast at the start (a bit hit or miss taste in beer making) which was
      Message 2 of 27 , Jan 9, 2012
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        Hi ML,

        Traditionally for hundreds of years we had beer in the early times made from wild yeast at the start (a bit hit or miss taste in beer making) which was distilled into high strength alcohol. 

             Now beer has always been made from the natural low sugar content found in grain (not highly refined sugar like you get in (1 kg)2 pound bags nowadays).  So what you naturally had was large quantities of beer for sale and to make it last a bit longer for commercial saleability was the addition of Hops and Hops were added around King Henry the V111 (8th) time (he personally banned hops from his court because he didn’t like the taste).

             As a point on the side a good water source was again a hit or miss thing in the Middle Ages and a lot of disease then was acquired from exposure to dirty contaminated water.  All those Crusading Knights Templar and beer swilling British soldiers kept the soldiers all pretty healthy because of drinking the boiled water in beer (sometimes a gallon or two a day for their fluid intake).  A healthy war winning good fighting soldier was a beer drinking soldier in the Middle Ages.  That tradition has carried on until today and was exported to every British colony in the world.

              But I digress they also had pretty good consistent Whiskey and Navy Rum amidst the gut rot crap available at the time, and that was made from very large quantities of low alcohol  3 or 4 % abv unhopped beer.  Beer made from yeast (usually bakers yeast) to those sorts of alcohol levels, left the yeast unstressed as they strolled to the winning alcohol line as opposed high yield yeast (Turbos and the like) to sprinting  all stressed out to the winning alcohol line.

             One of the reasons why good spirits were so much more expensive in days gone by was that large quantities of good saleable beer were used to make it in reasonable quantities to be able to sell it and also it was very labour intensive for what the return was so the price went up accordingly.

             The phrase used quit often used these days is:- if you put crap in you get crap out.  

             So keep your grain bill good keep it all low and slow especially the distilling part and you shouldn’t go too far wrong

        Geoff       

      • M L
        Yep, After you siphon off your wort pour some of the dredges (sludge) in the bottom of the fermenter into a sanitized bottle and put an air lock on it . I d
        Message 3 of 27 , Jan 9, 2012
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          Yep, After you siphon off your wort pour some of the dredges (sludge) in the bottom of the fermenter into a sanitized bottle and put an air lock on it . I'd feed it something before using if your not going to use it right away. this is called a starter and is a good idea for every brew to increase the amount of yeast to pitch. Especially if using a dry yeast. It takes some planning to prepare it a few days before you brew but is a good practice to decrease the lag period.ML.

          --- On Sun, 1/8/12, o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@...> wrote:

          From: o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@...>
          Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Apple Whiskey TURBO GOOD !
          To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Sunday, January 8, 2012, 3:24 PM

           



          On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 12:00 PM, M L <kekedog13@...> wrote:


          The reason for Turbo yeast is because it will keep fermenting up to 23% alc. and most wine yeasts stop at around 16%. Thus  getting you the most alc. possible from your' wash or mash. MarkL.


          Greetings

          So - - can I keep the yeast alive for multiple runs? If so - - any ideas how to do that?

          Darald
        • M L
          That being said, wouldn t a yeast that can tolerate more alcohol be less likely to get stressed because of the fact that it can tolerate those conditions
          Message 4 of 27 , Jan 14, 2012
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            That being said, wouldn't a yeast that can tolerate more alcohol be less likely to get stressed because of the fact that it can tolerate those conditions better ?ML

            --- On Sun, 1/8/12, John Brase <jbrase@...> wrote:

            From: John Brase <jbrase@...>
            Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Whiskey TURBO GOOD !
            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Cc: "M L" <kekedog13@...>
            Date: Sunday, January 8, 2012, 4:07 PM

             

            I am not going to presume to answer for Harry, who knows more about the matter than I. But I will happily give you my answers to your questions.

            Lower strength does indeed mean a lower initial specific gravity (OG). An OG of 1.090, with a potential finished ABV of around 12% is as high as I ever want to go. Most times I shoot for 1.080 (depending on what I am making - an all grain mash, for example, won't be anywhere near that high). It doesn't matter what the yeast is "rated for." The yeast cells will begin to stress as the ABV rises. You want the sugar to be depleted and the wash finished before the yeast goes into stress and starts producing sulfur like compounds.

            If you do it right by keeping the wash in the "happy" range for the yeast, and making sure they have sufficient nutrients during the fermentation, they stay healthy till all the fermentable sugars are converted to alcohol and Co2, at which point they quietly go dormant and sink to the bottom without leaving all the nasties in your wash.

            Greed is the bane of artisan distiller.


            On 1/8/2012 5:45 PM, M L wrote:

             

            By lower strength do you mean a lower OG? Does it just have to be lower than what the yeast is rated for ? And by stress do you mean that asking a yeast to ferment to it's death stresses it. I'm  trying to gain as much knowledge as I can from the expertise of others. ML
            '
            --- On Sun, 1/8/12, Harry <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:

            From: Harry <gnikomson2000@...>
            Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Whiskey TURBO GOOD !
            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Sunday, January 8, 2012, 5:19 AM

             

            When you guys click to the fact that lower strength washes produce the best products, you will begin to get worthwhile repeatable results from this wonderful hobby.

            Yeast under max stress makes shit rocket fuel.

            Slainte!
            regards Harry
            =========================

            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, M L <kekedog13@...> wrote:
            >
            > The reason for Turbo yeast is because it will keep fermenting up to 23% alc. and most wine yeasts stop at around 16%. Thus  getting you the most alc. possible from your' wash or mash. MarkL.
            >
            >


          • geoff burrows
            Hi ML, Let s say you were called yeast (instead of ML) and you practaced and learned to run a 4 minute mile. you would still be called ML and you would still
            Message 5 of 27 , Jan 14, 2012
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              Hi ML,
                   Let's say you were called yeast (instead of ML) and you practaced and learned to run a 4 minute mile.  you would still be called ML and you would still be stressed out and knackered wether it was a 4 minute or a 6 minute mile.  It's the same thing for the yeast.  Yeast it yeast and they would still be knackered doing the mile (making ethanol)  albeit faster and stronger than what they would normally produce it.You could still do the same mile walking and not be stressed out
              Geoff
            • Len
              Good point.  We all know that yeasts are stressed by all sorts of things: the wrong temperature, missing nutrients, a difficult ph, but they all have one
              Message 6 of 27 , Jan 14, 2012
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                Good point.  We all know that yeasts are stressed by all sorts of things: the wrong temperature, missing nutrients, a difficult ph, but they all have one thing in common.  They are all going to be killed by their self generated alcohol.  Wine makers choose certain yeasts when they wish to make high alcohol wines, because those are the yeasts that were bred to make high alcohol without running amok.  If one were seriously troubled by the products of stressed yeast, he could use a high alcohol yeast and when the alcohol reached 14 or 15% commit yeast genocide with some potassium metabisulfide.  Pretty much instant death, no time to pee in the pool, gone.  Something to think about.  Here's a link to a yeast table that I find useful as a wine maker.  Good brewing
              • Len
                Son of a gun, forgot to attach the link.  http://www.winemakermag.com/guide/yeast ________________________________ From: geoff burrows
                Message 7 of 27 , Jan 14, 2012
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                  Son of a gun, forgot to attach the link.  http://www.winemakermag.com/guide/yeast

                  From: geoff burrows <jeffrey.burrows@...>
                  To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 1:08 PM
                  Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Whiskey TURBO GOOD !

                   
                  Hi ML,
                       Let's say you were called yeast (instead of ML) and you practaced and learned to run a 4 minute mile.  you would still be called ML and you would still be stressed out and knackered wether it was a 4 minute or a 6 minute mile.  It's the same thing for the yeast.  Yeast it yeast and they would still be knackered doing the mile (making ethanol)  albeit faster and stronger than what they would normally produce it.You could still do the same mile walking and not be stressed out
                  Geoff


                • tgfoitwoods
                  Len, Yeast death by ethanol poisoning isn t the only way. Within the bounds of the ethanol-making discussion, the most important reason that yeast action is
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jan 14, 2012
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                    Len,

                    Yeast death by ethanol poisoning isn't the only way.

                    "Within the bounds of the ethanol-making discussion, the most important
                    reason that yeast action is halted is when the yeast simply runs out of sugar
                    to eat. Considering the hardship, the yeast takes this pretty well. When the
                    yeast cells see there is no more food, they just quietly give up and
                    flocculate.

                    When yeast cells flocculate, they stop their metabolic processes, cluster
                    together (for comfort, we assume) and fall out of the solution, ending up as
                    a layer of gunk underneath your wash. You are left with an ethanol-rich
                    wash which is easily siphoned off that layer of flocculated yeast. This is a
                    happy ending.

                    The next most important reason for stopping yeast action is a less-happy
                    outcome, also important to the distiller. This occurs when yeast simply
                    drowns in its own wastes. As a fermentation progresses, the little beasties
                    pee more and more ethanol, and the concentration of ethanol in their
                    environment increases, inhibiting the yeast cells' metabolism more and
                    more, and in a very real sense, making them sick.

                    If the ethanol produced by the yeast cells that ran out of food and
                    flocculated was sweet and clean, and good to drink, the ethanol produced
                    by tortured, poisoned, violently ill yeast cells is frequently less good to
                    drink.
                    "

                    Making Fine Spirits
                    , Amphora Society -Zymurgy Bob


                    I get to spout more opinion answering the question about he MUM and JEM washes, which have a direct bearing on this subject.

                    Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Len <seadragon79@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Good point.  We all know that yeasts are stressed by all sorts of things: the wrong temperature, missing nutrients, a difficult ph, but they all have one thing in common.  They are all going to be killed by their self generated alcohol.  Wine makers choose certain yeasts when they wish to make high alcohol wines, because those are the yeasts that were bred to make high alcohol without running amok.  If one were seriously troubled by the products of stressed yeast, he could use a high alcohol yeast and when the alcohol reached 14 or 15% commit yeast genocide with some potassium metabisulfide.  Pretty much instant death, no time to pee in the pool, gone.  Something to think about.  Here's a link to a yeast table that I find useful as a wine maker.  Good brewing
                    >
                  • M L
                    O.K. But  if I was trained to run  23 miles, and could do so with no problem at all , and was then put  in a run of only , say  6 miles , wouldn t I be
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jan 14, 2012
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                      O.K. But  if I was trained to run  23 miles, and could do so with no problem at all , and was then put  in a run of only , say  6 miles , wouldn't I be better conditioned and do that run easily without pooping out nearly as early, than if I never ran more than 6 miles at a time? Maybe I'm not understanding it, but I just thought that a yeast that can tolererate 23 %   had more stamina and could work for a longer time without stopping because it had reached it's limit.Thus getting it to the finish line without hardly being winded.ML.
                       
                      --- On Sat, 1/14/12, geoff buraster buows <jeffrey.burrows@...> wrote:

                      From: geoff burrows <jeffrey.burrows@...>
                      Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Whiskey TURBO GOOD !
                      To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Saturday, January 14, 2012, 10:08 AM

                       

                      Hi ML,
                           Let's say you were called yeast (instead of ML) and you practaced and learned to run a 4 minute mile.  you would still be called ML and you would still be stressed out and knackered wether it was a 4 minute or a 6 minute mile.  It's the same thing for the yeast.  Yeast it yeast and they would still be knackered doing the mile (making ethanol)  albeit faster and stronger than what they would normally produce it.You could still do the same mile walking and not be stressed out
                      Geoff
                    • M L
                      So, Should you check the alcohol content frequently and stabilize it before it reaches the level that the yeast is rated for? And wouldn t a turbo yeast be
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jan 14, 2012
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                        So, Should you check the alcohol content frequently and stabilize it before it reaches the level that the yeast is rated for? And wouldn't a turbo yeast be able to go longer before it reached that point? I guess as long as the OG wasn't too high it would starve to death before it died from alcohol poisoning huh ? ML

                        --- On Sat, 1/14/12, tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...> wrote:

                        From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                        Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Whiskey TURBO GOOD !
                        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Saturday, January 14, 2012, 3:42 PM

                         

                        Len,

                        Yeast death by ethanol poisoning isn't the only way.

                        "Within the bounds of the ethanol-making discussion, the most important
                        reason that yeast action is halted is when the yeast simply runs out of sugar
                        to eat. Considering the hardship, the yeast takes this pretty well. When the
                        yeast cells see there is no more food, they just quietly give up and
                        flocculate.

                        When yeast cells flocculate, they stop their metabolic processes, cluster
                        together (for comfort, we assume) and fall out of the solution, ending up as
                        a layer of gunk underneath your wash. You are left with an ethanol-rich
                        wash which is easily siphoned off that layer of flocculated yeast. This is a
                        happy ending.

                        The next most important reason for stopping yeast action is a less-happy
                        outcome, also important to the distiller. This occurs when yeast simply
                        drowns in its own wastes. As a fermentation progresses, the little beasties
                        pee more and more ethanol, and the concentration of ethanol in their
                        environment increases, inhibiting the yeast cells' metabolism more and
                        more, and in a very real sense, making them sick.

                        If the ethanol produced by the yeast cells that ran out of food and
                        flocculated was sweet and clean, and good to drink, the ethanol produced
                        by tortured, poisoned, violently ill yeast cells is frequently less good to
                        drink.
                        "

                        Making Fine Spirits
                        , Amphora Society -Zymurgy Bob


                        I get to spout more opinion answering the question about he MUM and JEM washes, which have a direct bearing on this subject.

                        Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Len <seadragon79@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Good point.  We all know that yeasts are stressed by all sorts of things: the wrong temperature, missing nutrients, a difficult ph, but they all have one thing in common.  They are all going to be killed by their self generated alcohol.  Wine makers choose certain yeasts when they wish to make high alcohol wines, because those are the yeasts that were bred to make high alcohol without running amok.  If one were seriously troubled by the products of stressed yeast, he could use a high alcohol yeast and when the alcohol reached 14 or 15% commit yeast genocide with some potassium metabisulfide.  Pretty much instant death, no time to pee in the pool, gone.  Something to think about.  Here's a link to a yeast table that I find useful as a wine maker.  Good brewing
                        >

                      • Gavin Flett
                        That s an interesting snippet down there ZB. So by that logic, can I assume that it would be more beneficial to add a larger amount of yeast than would be
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jan 14, 2012
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                          That's an interesting snippet down there ZB. So by that logic, can I assume that it would be more beneficial to add a larger amount of yeast than would be technically necessary to produce x amount of alcohol? And can I also assume that by doing this the yeast will die of sugar starvation rather than dying of alcohol poisoning?


                          To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          From: kekedog13@...
                          Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 17:41:57 -0800
                          Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Whiskey TURBO GOOD !

                           
                          So, Should you check the alcohol content frequently and stabilize it before it reaches the level that the yeast is rated for? And wouldn't a turbo yeast be able to go longer before it reached that point? I guess as long as the OG wasn't too high it would starve to death before it died from alcohol poisoning huh ? ML

                          --- On Sat, 1/14/12, tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...> wrote:

                          From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                          Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Whiskey TURBO GOOD !
                          To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Saturday, January 14, 2012, 3:42 PM

                           

                          Len,

                          Yeast death by ethanol poisoning isn't the only way.

                          "Within the bounds of the ethanol-making discussion, the most important
                          reason that yeast action is halted is when the yeast simply runs out of sugar
                          to eat. Considering the hardship, the yeast takes this pretty well. When the
                          yeast cells see there is no more food, they just quietly give up and
                          flocculate.

                          When yeast cells flocculate, they stop their metabolic processes, cluster
                          together (for comfort, we assume) and fall out of the solution, ending up as
                          a layer of gunk underneath your wash. You are left with an ethanol-rich
                          wash which is easily siphoned off that layer of flocculated yeast. This is a
                          happy ending.

                          The next most important reason for stopping yeast action is a less-happy
                          outcome, also important to the distiller. This occurs when yeast simply
                          drowns in its own wastes. As a fermentation progresses, the little beasties
                          pee more and more ethanol, and the concentration of ethanol in their
                          environment increases, inhibiting the yeast cells' metabolism more and
                          more, and in a very real sense, making them sick.

                          If the ethanol produced by the yeast cells that ran out of food and
                          flocculated was sweet and clean, and good to drink, the ethanol produced
                          by tortured, poisoned, violently ill yeast cells is frequently less good to
                          drink.
                          "

                          Making Fine Spirits
                          , Amphora Society -Zymurgy Bob


                          I get to spout more opinion answering the question about he MUM and JEM washes, which have a direct bearing on this subject.

                          Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

                          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Len <seadragon79@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Good point.  We all know that yeasts are stressed by all sorts of things: the wrong temperature, missing nutrients, a difficult ph, but they all have one thing in common.  They are all going to be killed by their self generated alcohol.  Wine makers choose certain yeasts when they wish to make high alcohol wines, because those are the yeasts that were bred to make high alcohol without running amok.  If one were seriously troubled by the products of stressed yeast, he could use a high alcohol yeast and when the alcohol reached 14 or 15% commit yeast genocide with some potassium metabisulfide.  Pretty much instant death, no time to pee in the pool, gone.  Something to think about.  Here's a link to a yeast table that I find useful as a wine maker.  Good brewing
                          >

                        • Brendan Keith
                          Your example is not accurate. You re not putting in yeast that run 23 miles with no problem at all . You putting in yeast that can run 23 miles and then
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jan 14, 2012
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                            Message
                            Your example is not accurate.  You're not putting in yeast that run 23 miles "with no problem at all".  You putting in yeast that can run 23 miles and then die, as opposed to using brewer's yeast which can run ~12 miles then die, or wine yeast which can go ~18 miles.
                             
                            In any of those cases, asking them to simply run about 8 miles will not cause them any significant stress.  They would each cross the finish line (consume all sugars) at a different rate and arrive with a different body odour (flavour profile).
                             
                             

                            --

                            Brendan Keith

                            bkeith@...

                             

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of M L
                            Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 7:20 PM
                            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Whiskey TURBO GOOD !

                             

                            O.K. But  if I was trained to run  23 miles, and could do so with no problem at all , and was then put  in a run of only , say  6 miles , wouldn't I be better conditioned and do that run easily without pooping out nearly as early, than if I never ran more than 6 miles at a time? Maybe I'm not understanding it, but I just thought that a yeast that can tolererate 23 %   had more stamina and could work for a longer time without stopping because it had reached it's limit.Thus getting it to the finish line without hardly being winded.ML.
                             
                            --- On Sat, 1/14/12, geoff buraster buows <jeffrey.burrows@...> wrote:

                            From: geoff burrows <jeffrey.burrows@...>
                            Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Whiskey TURBO GOOD !
                            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Saturday, January 14, 2012, 10:08 AM

                             

                            Hi ML,
                                 Let's say you were called yeast (instead of ML) and you practaced and learned to run a 4 minute mile.  you would still be called ML and you would still be stressed out and knackered wether it was a 4 minute or a 6 minute mile.  It's the same thing for the yeast.  Yeast it yeast and they would still be knackered doing the mile (making ethanol)  albeit faster and stronger than what they would normally produce it.You could still do the same mile walking and not be stressed out
                            Geoff

                          • M L
                            So , If you had a wash with a S.G. of 1.090 , wouldn t it be better to use a yeast that had a higher tolerance to alcohol so it could utilize more of the
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jan 14, 2012
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                              So , If you had a wash with a S.G. of 1.090 , wouldn't it be better to use a yeast that had a higher tolerance to alcohol so it could utilize more of the available sugars? Wouldn't a brewers yeast die when the alcohol level reached it maximum level of tolerance leaving a lot of un-fermented fermentables ?ML

                              --- On Sat, 1/14/12, Brendan Keith <bkeith@...> wrote:

                              From: Brendan Keith <bkeith@...>
                              Subject: RE: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Whiskey TURBO GOOD !
                              To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Saturday, January 14, 2012, 6:24 PM

                               

                              Your example is not accurate.  You're not putting in yeast that run 23 miles "with no problem at all".  You putting in yeast that can run 23 miles and then die, as opposed to using brewer's yeast which can run ~12 miles then die, or wine yeast which can go ~18 miles.
                               
                              In any of those cases, asking them to simply run about 8 miles will not cause them any significant stress.  They would each cross the finish line (consume all sugars) at a different rate and arrive with a different body odour (flavour profile).
                               
                               

                              --

                              Brendan Keith

                              bkeith@...

                               

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of M L
                              Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 7:20 PM
                              To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Whiskey TURBO GOOD !

                               

                              O.K. But  if I was trained to run  23 miles, and could do so with no problem at all , and was then put  in a run of only , say  6 miles , wouldn't I be better conditioned and do that run easily without pooping out nearly as early, than if I never ran more than 6 miles at a time? Maybe I'm not understanding it, but I just thought that a yeast that can tolererate 23 %   had more stamina and could work for a longer time without stopping because it had reached it's limit.Thus getting it to the finish line without hardly being winded.ML.
                               
                              --- On Sat, 1/14/12, geoff buraster buows <jeffrey.burrows@...> wrote:

                              From: geoff burrows <jeffrey.burrows@...>
                              Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Whiskey TURBO GOOD !
                              To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Saturday, January 14, 2012, 10:08 AM

                               

                              Hi ML,
                                   Let's say you were called yeast (instead of ML) and you practaced and learned to run a 4 minute mile.  you would still be called ML and you would still be stressed out and knackered wether it was a 4 minute or a 6 minute mile.  It's the same thing for the yeast.  Yeast it yeast and they would still be knackered doing the mile (making ethanol)  albeit faster and stronger than what they would normally produce it.You could still do the same mile walking and not be stressed out
                              Geoff

                            • Len
                              If I were doing it I d just let it run its course, really.  The whole idea is that the yeast is selected for high alcohol production.  What I was getting at
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jan 14, 2012
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                                If I were doing it I'd just let it run its course, really.  The whole idea is that the yeast is selected for high alcohol production.  What I was getting at was that all yeasts are going to go through the stress that being poisoned by alcohol causes.  I rarely use a "stablizer."  The times I have were more for control of the dryness of the wine.  I don't see that it affected the flavor really.

                                From: M L <kekedog13@...>
                                To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 8:41 PM
                                Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Whiskey TURBO GOOD !
                                 
                                So, Should you check the alcohol content frequently and stabilize it before it reaches the level that the yeast is rated for? And wouldn't a turbo yeast be able to go longer before it reached that point? I guess as long as the OG wasn't too high it would starve to death before it died from alcohol poisoning huh ? ML

                                --- On Sat, 1/14/12, tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...> wrote:

                                From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                                Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Whiskey TURBO GOOD !
                                To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Saturday, January 14, 2012, 3:42 PM

                                 
                                Len,

                                Yeast death by ethanol poisoning isn't the only way.

                                "Within the bounds of the ethanol-making discussion, the most important
                                reason that yeast action is halted is when the yeast simply runs out of sugar
                                to eat. Considering the hardship, the yeast takes this pretty well. When the
                                yeast cells see there is no more food, they just quietly give up and
                                flocculate.

                                When yeast cells flocculate, they stop their metabolic processes, cluster
                                together (for comfort, we assume) and fall out of the solution, ending up as
                                a layer of gunk underneath your wash. You are left with an ethanol-rich
                                wash which is easily siphoned off that layer of flocculated yeast. This is a
                                happy ending.

                                The next most important reason for stopping yeast action is a less-happy
                                outcome, also important to the distiller. This occurs when yeast simply
                                drowns in its own wastes. As a fermentation progresses, the little beasties
                                pee more and more ethanol, and the concentration of ethanol in their
                                environment increases, inhibiting the yeast cells' metabolism more and
                                more, and in a very real sense, making them sick.

                                If the ethanol produced by the yeast cells that ran out of food and
                                flocculated was sweet and clean, and good to drink, the ethanol produced
                                by tortured, poisoned, violently ill yeast cells is frequently less good to
                                drink.
                                "

                                Making Fine Spirits
                                , Amphora Society -Zymurgy Bob


                                I get to spout more opinion answering the question about he MUM and JEM washes, which have a direct bearing on this subject.

                                Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

                                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Len <seadragon79@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Good point.  We all know that yeasts are stressed by all sorts of things: the wrong temperature, missing nutrients, a difficult ph, but they all have one thing in common.  They are all going to be killed by their self generated alcohol.  Wine makers choose certain yeasts when they wish to make high alcohol wines, because those are the yeasts that were bred to make high alcohol without running amok.  If one were seriously troubled by the products of stressed yeast, he could use a high alcohol yeast and when the alcohol reached 14 or 15% commit yeast genocide with some potassium metabisulfide.  Pretty much instant death, no time to pee in the pool, gone.  Something to think about.  Here's a link to a yeast table that I find useful as a wine maker.  Good brewing
                                >
                              • Brendan Keith
                                A. How would you stabilize it before it reaches... ? B. Why not simply start off by providing the correct amount of food for the yeast so that they will run
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jan 14, 2012
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                                  Message
                                  A. How would you "stabilize it before it reaches..."? 
                                  B. Why not simply start off by providing the correct amount of food for the yeast so that they will run out before the surrounding ethanol concentration induces the stress.
                                   
                                  Answers: A. You don't.  B. You do.
                                   
                                  A turbo yeast can go farther than a wine yeast, which can go farther than a beer yeast, but they all give a different tasting result, even from the same OG.

                                  BK  

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of M L
                                  Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 8:42 PM
                                  To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Whiskey TURBO GOOD !

                                   

                                  So, Should you check the alcohol content frequently and stabilize it before it reaches the level that the yeast is rated for? And wouldn't a turbo yeast be able to go longer before it reached that point? I guess as long as the OG wasn't too high it would starve to death before it died from alcohol poisoning huh ? ML

                                  --- On Sat, 1/14/12, tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...> wrote:

                                  From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                                  Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Whiskey TURBO GOOD !
                                  To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Saturday, January 14, 2012, 3:42 PM

                                   

                                  Len,

                                  Yeast death by ethanol poisoning isn't the only way.

                                  "Within the bounds of the ethanol-making discussion, the most important
                                  reason that yeast action is halted is when the yeast simply runs out of sugar
                                  to eat. Considering the hardship, the yeast takes this pretty well. When the
                                  yeast cells see there is no more food, they just quietly give up and
                                  flocculate.

                                  When yeast cells flocculate, they stop their metabolic processes, cluster
                                  together (for comfort, we assume) and fall out of the solution, ending up as
                                  a layer of gunk underneath your wash. You are left with an ethanol-rich
                                  wash which is easily siphoned off that layer of flocculated yeast. This is a
                                  happy ending.

                                  The next most important reason for stopping yeast action is a less-happy
                                  outcome, also important to the distiller. This occurs when yeast simply
                                  drowns in its own wastes. As a fermentation progresses, the little beasties
                                  pee more and more ethanol, and the concentration of ethanol in their
                                  environment increases, inhibiting the yeast cells' metabolism more and
                                  more, and in a very real sense, making them sick.

                                  If the ethanol produced by the yeast cells that ran out of food and
                                  flocculated was sweet and clean, and good to drink, the ethanol produced
                                  by tortured, poisoned, violently ill yeast cells is frequently less good to
                                  drink.
                                  "

                                  Making Fine Spirits
                                  , Amphora Society -Zymurgy Bob


                                  I get to spout more opinion answering the question about he MUM and JEM washes, which have a direct bearing on this subject.

                                  Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

                                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Len <seadragon79@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Good point.  We all know that yeasts are stressed by all sorts of things: the wrong temperature, missing nutrients, a difficult ph, but they all have one thing in common.  They are all going to be killed by their self generated alcohol.  Wine makers choose certain yeasts when they wish to make high alcohol wines, because those are the yeasts that were bred to make high alcohol without running amok.  If one were seriously troubled by the products of stressed yeast, he could use a high alcohol yeast and when the alcohol reached 14 or 15% commit yeast genocide with some potassium metabisulfide.  Pretty much instant death, no time to pee in the pool, gone.  Something to think about.  Here's a link to a yeast table that I find useful as a wine maker.  Good brewing
                                  >

                                • Brendan Keith
                                  You ask that question as if it not already know exactly what an S.G. of 1.090 will yield (sugar wash: ~14%, barley wort: ~12%) and which yeasts are capable of
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jan 14, 2012
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                                    Message
                                    You ask that question as if it not already know exactly what an S.G. of 1.090 will yield (sugar wash: ~14%, barley wort: ~12%) and which yeasts are capable of handling it(S. Cerevisiae: iffy, S. Bayanus: no problem, Turbo: obviously fine).
                                     
                                    And you're not trying to utilize "more of the available sugars".  You're trying to use all of them.  Hence, proper choice of starting conditions and yeast.  It's all spelled out for you.  Keep reading.

                                    --

                                    Brendan Keith

                                    bkeith@...

                                     

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of M L
                                    Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 9:48 PM
                                    To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: RE: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Whiskey TURBO GOOD !

                                     

                                    So , If you had a wash with a S.G. of 1.090 , wouldn't it be better to use a yeast that had a higher tolerance to alcohol so it could utilize more of the available sugars? Wouldn't a brewers yeast die when the alcohol level reached it maximum level of tolerance leaving a lot of un-fermented fermentables ?ML

                                    --- On Sat, 1/14/12, Brendan Keith <bkeith@...> wrote:

                                    From: Brendan Keith <bkeith@...>
                                    Subject: RE: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Whiskey TURBO GOOD !
                                    To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Saturday, January 14, 2012, 6:24 PM

                                     

                                    Your example is not accurate.  You're not putting in yeast that run 23 miles "with no problem at all".  You putting in yeast that can run 23 miles and then die, as opposed to using brewer's yeast which can run ~12 miles then die, or wine yeast which can go ~18 miles.
                                     
                                    In any of those cases, asking them to simply run about 8 miles will not cause them any significant stress.  They would each cross the finish line (consume all sugars) at a different rate and arrive with a different body odour (flavour profile).
                                     
                                     

                                    --

                                    Brendan Keith

                                    bkeith@...

                                     

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of M L
                                    Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 7:20 PM
                                    To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Whiskey TURBO GOOD !

                                     

                                    O.K. But  if I was trained to run  23 miles, and could do so with no problem at all , and was then put  in a run of only , say  6 miles , wouldn't I be better conditioned and do that run easily without pooping out nearly as early, than if I never ran more than 6 miles at a time? Maybe I'm not understanding it, but I just thought that a yeast that can tolererate 23 %   had more stamina and could work for a longer time without stopping because it had reached it's limit.Thus getting it to the finish line without hardly being winded.ML.
                                     
                                    --- On Sat, 1/14/12, geoff buraster buows <jeffrey.burrows@...> wrote:

                                    From: geoff burrows <jeffrey.burrows@...>
                                    Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Whiskey TURBO GOOD !
                                    To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Saturday, January 14, 2012, 10:08 AM

                                     

                                    Hi ML,
                                         Let's say you were called yeast (instead of ML) and you practaced and learned to run a 4 minute mile.  you would still be called ML and you would still be stressed out and knackered wether it was a 4 minute or a 6 minute mile.  It's the same thing for the yeast.  Yeast it yeast and they would still be knackered doing the mile (making ethanol)  albeit faster and stronger than what they would normally produce it.You could still do the same mile walking and not be stressed out
                                    Geoff

                                  • M L
                                    In conclusion I guess it would be safe to say that no matter what yeast you use you re better off making sure that it runs out of food and quits due to
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jan 14, 2012
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                                      In conclusion I guess it would be safe to say that no matter what yeast you use you're better off making sure that it runs out of food and quits due to starvation rather than being killed by being exposed to an alcohol level that is at a deadly level for that particular yeast .ML

                                      --- On Sat, 1/14/12, Len <seadragon79@...> wrote:

                                      From: Len <seadragon79@...>
                                      Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Whiskey TURBO GOOD !
                                      To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Date: Saturday, January 14, 2012, 7:41 PM

                                       

                                      If I were doing it I'd just let it run its course, really.  The whole idea is that the yeast is selected for high alcohol production.  What I was getting at was that all yeasts are going to go through the stress that being poisoned by alcohol causes.  I rarely use a "stablizer."  The times I have were more for control of the dryness of the wine.  I don't see that it affected the flavor really.

                                      From: M L <kekedog13@...>
                                      To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 8:41 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Whiskey TURBO GOOD !
                                       
                                      So, Should you check the alcohol content frequently and stabilize it before it reaches the level that the yeast is rated for? And wouldn't a turbo yeast be able to go longer before it reached that point? I guess as long as the OG wasn't too high it would starve to death before it died from alcohol poisoning huh ? ML

                                      --- On Sat, 1/14/12, tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...> wrote:

                                      From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                                      Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Whiskey TURBO GOOD !
                                      To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Saturday, January 14, 2012, 3:42 PM

                                       
                                      Len,

                                      Yeast death by ethanol poisoning isn't the only way.

                                      "Within the bounds of the ethanol-making discussion, the most important
                                      reason that yeast action is halted is when the yeast simply runs out of sugar
                                      to eat. Considering the hardship, the yeast takes this pretty well. When the
                                      yeast cells see there is no more food, they just quietly give up and
                                      flocculate.

                                      When yeast cells flocculate, they stop their metabolic processes, cluster
                                      together (for comfort, we assume) and fall out of the solution, ending up as
                                      a layer of gunk underneath your wash. You are left with an ethanol-rich
                                      wash which is easily siphoned off that layer of flocculated yeast. This is a
                                      happy ending.

                                      The next most important reason for stopping yeast action is a less-happy
                                      outcome, also important to the distiller. This occurs when yeast simply
                                      drowns in its own wastes. As a fermentation progresses, the little beasties
                                      pee more and more ethanol, and the concentration of ethanol in their
                                      environment increases, inhibiting the yeast cells' metabolism more and
                                      more, and in a very real sense, making them sick.

                                      If the ethanol produced by the yeast cells that ran out of food and
                                      flocculated was sweet and clean, and good to drink, the ethanol produced
                                      by tortured, poisoned, violently ill yeast cells is frequently less good to
                                      drink.
                                      "

                                      Making Fine Spirits
                                      , Amphora Society -Zymurgy Bob


                                      I get to spout more opinion answering the question about he MUM and JEM washes, which have a direct bearing on this subject.

                                      Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

                                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Len <seadragon79@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Good point.  We all know that yeasts are stressed by all sorts of things: the wrong temperature, missing nutrients, a difficult ph, but they all have one thing in common.  They are all going to be killed by their self generated alcohol.  Wine makers choose certain yeasts when they wish to make high alcohol wines, because those are the yeasts that were bred to make high alcohol without running amok.  If one were seriously troubled by the products of stressed yeast, he could use a high alcohol yeast and when the alcohol reached 14 or 15% commit yeast genocide with some potassium metabisulfide.  Pretty much instant death, no time to pee in the pool, gone.  Something to think about.  Here's a link to a yeast table that I find useful as a wine maker.  Good brewing
                                      >
                                    • Len
                                      (A) To stabilize my wine I use sulfates.  I do this when I am making desert wine that I want to retain some of the sweetness that would otherwise be fermented
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Jan 14, 2012
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                                        (A) To stabilize my wine I use sulfates.  I do this when I am making desert wine that I want to retain some of the sweetness that would otherwise be fermented into alcohol, leaving a dry product.
                                         
                                        (B) If I am making a dry wine I use my hygrometer to determine specific gravity and adjust to the desired weight for the alcohol I want.
                                         
                                        so the answers would be: A I do. &  B. I do.

                                        From: Brendan Keith <bkeith@...>
                                        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 10:54 PM
                                        Subject: RE: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Whiskey TURBO GOOD !
                                         
                                        A. How would you "stabilize it before it reaches..."? 
                                        B. Why not simply start off by providing the correct amount of food for the yeast so that they will run out before the surrounding ethanol concentration induces the stress.
                                         
                                        Answers: A. You don't.  B. You do.
                                         
                                        A turbo yeast can go farther than a wine yeast, which can go farther than a beer yeast, but they all give a different tasting result, even from the same OG.
                                        BK  
                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of M L
                                        Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 8:42 PM
                                        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Whiskey TURBO GOOD !

                                         
                                        So, Should you check the alcohol content frequently and stabilize it before it reaches the level that the yeast is rated for? And wouldn't a turbo yeast be able to go longer before it reached that point? I guess as long as the OG wasn't too high it would starve to death before it died from alcohol poisoning huh ? ML

                                        --- On Sat, 1/14/12, tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...> wrote:

                                        From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                                        Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Whiskey TURBO GOOD !
                                        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                        Date: Saturday, January 14, 2012, 3:42 PM

                                         
                                        Len,

                                        Yeast death by ethanol poisoning isn't the only way.

                                        "Within the bounds of the ethanol-making discussion, the most important
                                        reason that yeast action is halted is when the yeast simply runs out of sugar
                                        to eat. Considering the hardship, the yeast takes this pretty well. When the
                                        yeast cells see there is no more food, they just quietly give up and
                                        flocculate.

                                        When yeast cells flocculate, they stop their metabolic processes, cluster
                                        together (for comfort, we assume) and fall out of the solution, ending up as
                                        a layer of gunk underneath your wash. You are left with an ethanol-rich
                                        wash which is easily siphoned off that layer of flocculated yeast. This is a
                                        happy ending.

                                        The next most important reason for stopping yeast action is a less-happy
                                        outcome, also important to the distiller. This occurs when yeast simply
                                        drowns in its own wastes. As a fermentation progresses, the little beasties
                                        pee more and more ethanol, and the concentration of ethanol in their
                                        environment increases, inhibiting the yeast cells' metabolism more and
                                        more, and in a very real sense, making them sick.

                                        If the ethanol produced by the yeast cells that ran out of food and
                                        flocculated was sweet and clean, and good to drink, the ethanol produced
                                        by tortured, poisoned, violently ill yeast cells is frequently less good to
                                        drink.
                                        "

                                        Making Fine Spirits
                                        , Amphora Society -Zymurgy Bob


                                        I get to spout more opinion answering the question about he MUM and JEM washes, which have a direct bearing on this subject.

                                        Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits

                                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Len <seadragon79@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Good point.  We all know that yeasts are stressed by all sorts of things: the wrong temperature, missing nutrients, a difficult ph, but they all have one thing in common.  They are all going to be killed by their self generated alcohol.  Wine makers choose certain yeasts when they wish to make high alcohol wines, because those are the yeasts that were bred to make high alcohol without running amok.  If one were seriously troubled by the products of stressed yeast, he could use a high alcohol yeast and when the alcohol reached 14 or 15% commit yeast genocide with some potassium metabisulfide.  Pretty much instant death, no time to pee in the pool, gone.  Something to think about.  Here's a link to a yeast table that I find useful as a wine maker.  Good brewing
                                        >
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