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Low wines yields after grain fermentation

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  • Alex Castillo
    Hi all To ZB and all grain whiskey makers. How much low wines do you get after a grain mash/fermentation? Been working with 8 lb. grain + 2 lb. 6 row malt (no
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 16 2:35 AM
      Hi all

      To ZB and all grain whiskey makers.

      How much low wines do you get after a grain mash/fermentation?

      Been working with 8 lb. grain + 2 lb. 6 row malt (no extra enzymes) and adding some DAP (no other nutrients) fermenting on the grains (or not), but getting in both cases about 1 liter of around 50% low wines, which I find to be a low yield. What could be wrong? or Am I getting an acceptable yield? Planning to use both enzymes and malt next time.

      Thanks,

      Alex
    • Robert Hubble
      Alex, According to my calculations, 100% yield on that mash, using my notes, should be about 1.8 L of 50% low wines, but grain whiskies have minds of their own
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 16 9:39 AM
        Alex,
         
        According to my calculations, 100% yield on that mash, using my notes, should be about 1.8 L of 50% low wines, but grain whiskies have minds of their own when it comes to producing alcohol. It could be grain variations, but I'd bet on starch-sugar conversion efficiency. Pay close attention to enzyme conversion temperatures and pH, and yup, go for the bottled enzymes. Or, you could just go with what you're getting; whiskies aren't a high-yield proposition, at least compared to rums.
         
        What grains are you using?

        Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
         

        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
        From: castillo.alex2008@...
        Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 09:35:03 +0000
        Subject: [new_distillers] Low wines yields after grain fermentation

         

        Hi all

        To ZB and all grain whiskey makers.

        How much low wines do you get after a grain mash/fermentation?

        Been working with 8 lb. grain + 2 lb. 6 row malt (no extra enzymes) and adding some DAP (no other nutrients) fermenting on the grains (or not), but getting in both cases about 1 liter of around 50% low wines, which I find to be a low yield. What could be wrong? or Am I getting an acceptable yield? Planning to use both enzymes and malt next time.

        Thanks,

        Alex


      • Alex Castillo
        Thanks ZB for your quick reply. Last one, distilled yesterday, was 8 lb. (cracked) rice + 2 lb. 6 row malt. Previous one was (cracked) corn + 2 lb. 6 row
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 16 1:38 PM
          Thanks ZB for your quick reply.

          Last one, distilled yesterday, was 8 lb. (cracked) rice + 2 lb. 6 row malt. Previous one was (cracked) corn + 2 lb. 6 row malt. Both steeping grain at some 100C during an hour, and later, after malt addition, at some 68-70C, during an extra hour (I "felt" the convertion in both cases, if you know what I mean).

          Something strange happened. When fermenting rice/malt (on grains) fermentation didn´t start quickly, and I had to rely on EC-1118 to get it started (I first began with EDV-493, later added bread yeast, but...nothing, then finally EC-1118). In the other hand, corn/malt (lautered before fermenting) proceeded well (used WD yeast with AG in the last one).

          I didn´t want to "fake it" using enzymes, but I think, as you point, they are a "necessity" for increasing my yields.

          Alex
        • Fredrick Lee
          Does 2lbs of 6-row have enough DP to convert the other 8 lbs?
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 16 1:39 PM
            Does 2lbs of 6-row have enough DP to convert the other 8 lbs?

            On Oct 16, 2011, at 5:35, "Alex Castillo" <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:

             


            Hi all

            To ZB and all grain whiskey makers.

            How much low wines do you get after a grain mash/fermentation?

            Been working with 8 lb. grain + 2 lb. 6 row malt (no extra enzymes) and adding some DAP (no other nutrients) fermenting on the grains (or not), but getting in both cases about 1 liter of around 50% low wines, which I find to be a low yield. What could be wrong? or Am I getting an acceptable yield? Planning to use both enzymes and malt next time.

            Thanks,

            Alex

          • Alex Castillo
            I think so. As low as 10% malt in a mash is recommended. In this case I´ve used up to 20%, and 6 row has the higher DP of all malts. Alex
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 16 1:50 PM
              I think so. As low as 10% malt in a mash is recommended. In this case I´ve used up to 20%, and 6 row has the higher DP of all malts.

              Alex


              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...> wrote:
              >
              > Does 2lbs of 6-row have enough DP to convert the other 8 lbs?
              >
              > On Oct 16, 2011, at 5:35, "Alex Castillo" <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
              >
              > >
              > > Hi all
              > >
              > > To ZB and all grain whiskey makers.
              > >
              > > How much low wines do you get after a grain mash/fermentation?
              > >
              > > Been working with 8 lb. grain + 2 lb. 6 row malt (no extra enzymes) and adding some DAP (no other nutrients) fermenting on the grains (or not), but getting in both cases about 1 liter of around 50% low wines, which I find to be a low yield. What could be wrong? or Am I getting an acceptable yield? Planning to use both enzymes and malt next time.
              > >
              > > Thanks,
              > >
              > > Alex
              > >
              > >
              >
            • Harry
              Do you grind all to a flour consistency? Slainte! regards Harry
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 16 2:28 PM
                Do you grind all to a flour consistency?


                Slainte!
                regards Harry
                =======================================

                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Castillo" <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > I think so. As low as 10% malt in a mash is recommended. In this case I´ve used up to 20%, and 6 row has the higher DP of all malts.
                >
                > Alex
                >
                >
                > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Fredrick Lee <fredrick@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Does 2lbs of 6-row have enough DP to convert the other 8 lbs?
                > >
                > > On Oct 16, 2011, at 5:35, "Alex Castillo" <castillo.alex2008@> wrote:
                > >
                > > >
                > > > Hi all
                > > >
                > > > To ZB and all grain whiskey makers.
                > > >
                > > > How much low wines do you get after a grain mash/fermentation?
                > > >
                > > > Been working with 8 lb. grain + 2 lb. 6 row malt (no extra enzymes) and adding some DAP (no other nutrients) fermenting on the grains (or not), but getting in both cases about 1 liter of around 50% low wines, which I find to be a low yield. What could be wrong? or Am I getting an acceptable yield? Planning to use both enzymes and malt next time.
                > > >
                > > > Thanks,
                > > >
                > > > Alex
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Alex Castillo
                Hi Harry! No, I didn´t. Why you may ask? to avoid a filtering hard time! I thought on grinding to flour consistency, but I didn´t mind it that much thinking
                Message 7 of 12 , Oct 16 3:15 PM
                  Hi Harry!

                  No, I didn´t. Why you may ask? to avoid a filtering hard time!

                  I thought on grinding to flour consistency, but I didn´t mind it that much thinking that yeast will do the job if fermenting on the grains.

                  Was that pretty much my mistake?

                  Alex
                • Harry
                  Most likely. Use rice hulls to do the filtering. Slainte! regards Harry
                  Message 8 of 12 , Oct 17 5:39 AM
                    Most likely. Use rice hulls to do the filtering.

                    Slainte!
                    regards Harry
                    =======================================

                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Castillo" <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Harry!
                    >
                    > No, I didn´t. Why you may ask? to avoid a filtering hard time!
                    >
                    > I thought on grinding to flour consistency, but I didn´t mind it that much thinking that yeast will do the job if fermenting on the grains.
                    >
                    > Was that pretty much my mistake?
                    >
                    > Alex
                    >
                  • Fredrick Lee
                    Harry, if you grind grain to flour, don t you find more tannins in your ferment? Like a lot more? Alex, do you have a mash tun? Are you sparging? Good clear
                    Message 9 of 12 , Oct 17 6:29 AM
                      Harry, if you grind grain to flour, don't you find more tannins in your ferment? Like a lot more?  

                      Alex, do you have a mash tun? Are you sparging? Good clear vorlauf? Kitchen strainer?

                      On Oct 17, 2011, at 8:39, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:

                       

                      Most likely. Use rice hulls to do the filtering.

                      Slainte!
                      regards Harry
                      =======================================

                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Castillo" <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi Harry!
                      >
                      > No, I didn´t. Why you may ask? to avoid a filtering hard time!
                      >
                      > I thought on grinding to flour consistency, but I didn´t mind it that much thinking that yeast will do the job if fermenting on the grains.
                      >
                      > Was that pretty much my mistake?
                      >
                      > Alex
                      >

                    • Alex Castillo
                      ... your ferment? Like a lot more? ... No. I rarely do grains I´m mainly a rum guy. Once in a while I buy some DME or LME. eventually 6 row and peated malt.
                      Message 10 of 12 , Oct 17 3:53 PM


                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Harry, if you grind grain to flour, don't you find more tannins in your ferment? Like a lot more?
                        >
                        > Alex, do you have a mash tun?

                        No. I rarely do grains  I´m mainly a rum guy.  Once in a while I buy some DME or LME. eventually 6 row and peated malt.  So far so good, but my grain batches have been pathetic, lol.

                         Are you sparging?

                        Yes, when fermenting without grains (i.e. only malt).  No, if  fermenting on the grains, but I don´t think they (grains) keep that much liquid, do they?

                         Good clear vorlauf?

                        No.  I let the filtered mash rest a while, sort of a second fermentation and later dump the whole thing to the still.

                         Kitchen strainer?

                        Yep!
                        >

                        Alex

                      • Alex Castillo
                        ... Thanks, Harry, it worked! After grinding to a flour consistenciy I got up to 2 liters at about 50% low wines and 700 ml. hearts at about 80% after
                        Message 11 of 12 , Dec 2, 2011
                          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Do you grind all to a flour consistency?
                          >
                          >
                          > Slainte!
                          > regards Harry
                          > =======================================
                          >

                          Thanks, Harry, it worked! After grinding to a flour consistenciy I got up to 2 liters at about 50% low wines and 700 ml. hearts at about 80% after spirits run. I also solved the filtering problem using a nylon fine mesh. Hard work, but good results.

                          Now I have some new questions to you and all our forum whiskey makers:

                          1. After mashing, in order to cool to yeast pitching temps, I let the mash rest overnight, but now I observed with great surprise that the fermentation started without adding any yeast! How is that possible. Wild yeast coming from the air? I remember that Gosseeyes who used to post around here some time ago mentioned that oldtimers added no yeast to their mashes, but in the understanding that wild yeast produce off flavors I added the usual WDY/AG of brewhaus. Rationale?

                          2. Is there any way to get rid of lumping while mashing?

                          3. In my last mash, accidentally a bug/insect briefly falled and actually touched the mash already fermenting. (something that maybe is hard to prevent in a shed). Should this batch be dumped (to prevent any nasty infection or will it be a safe to drink booze after distilling (knowing that no living organism can tollerate more than 20% alcohol)

                          Thanks,

                          Alex
                        • Shot Man
                          Good morning Alex, I always heard to mix it 1st with cool water till a little soupy then add the hot water. Think hot water 1st may jell or cook a tiny bit
                          Message 12 of 12 , Dec 2, 2011
                            Good morning Alex,
                            I always heard to mix it 1st with cool water till a little soupy then add the hot water. Think hot water 1st may jell or cook a tiny bit before you can mix it good causing the lumps. This is what I do anyway. Kind of like making corn bread batter then cooking the badooky out of it.
                            Have a good one,
                            shotman
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 8:06 AM
                            Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Low wines yields after grain fermentation

                             



                            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Do you grind all to a flour consistency?
                            >
                            >
                            > Slainte!
                            > regards Harry
                            > =======================================
                            >

                            Thanks, Harry, it worked! After grinding to a flour consistenciy I got up to 2 liters at about 50% low wines and 700 ml. hearts at about 80% after spirits run. I also solved the filtering problem using a nylon fine mesh. Hard work, but good results.

                            Now I have some new questions to you and all our forum whiskey makers:

                            1. After mashing, in order to cool to yeast pitching temps, I let the mash rest overnight, but now I observed with great surprise that the fermentation started without adding any yeast! How is that possible. Wild yeast coming from the air? I remember that Gosseeyes who used to post around here some time ago mentioned that oldtimers added no yeast to their mashes, but in the understanding that wild yeast produce off flavors I added the usual WDY/AG of brewhaus. Rationale?

                            2. Is there any way to get rid of lumping while mashing?

                            3. In my last mash, accidentally a bug/insect briefly falled and actually touched the mash already fermenting. (something that maybe is hard to prevent in a shed). Should this batch be dumped (to prevent any nasty infection or will it be a safe to drink booze after distilling (knowing that no living organism can tollerate more than 20% alcohol)

                            Thanks,

                            Alex

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