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Re: [new_distillers] Aeration

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  • Ric Cunningham
    When aerating you are shooting for a fast start to the Yeast fermentation to out compete other organisms. This should not be an issue if using a large healthy
    Message 1 of 30 , Aug 30 9:58 AM
      When aerating you are shooting for a fast start to the Yeast fermentation to out compete other organisms. This should not be an issue if using a large healthy active yeast pitch. No Sulfate required. traditionally a grain mash is allowed to ferment with some souring agent (sour mash) but a fast yeast start will minimize that. No worries. 

      On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 10:44 AM, Bob Glicksman <bobg542492@...> wrote:
       

      In winemaking, the wort is sulfated so that sulpher dioxide gas is released and kills the wild yeast, bacteria, and other undersireable organisms.  Wine yeast is bred to tolerate higher levels of sulfates than do wild varieties.  Use sodium bisulfate (campden tablets) or potassium metabisulfate power.  These are availabe in any wine/beermaking store.





      -----Original Message-----
      From: Alli <allibugger@...>
      To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tue, Aug 30, 2011 9:05 am
      Subject: [new_distillers] Aeration

       
      In this business more than many the devil is in the details. When areating for 4-6 hours after the yeast has been pitched, how does one keep the air borne wild yeast out of the mash? I thought of putting the lid on the fermentor and running the air hose through the hole for the airlock, but that might restrict the air flow in/out of the vessel. Just wordering how other folks do this. Thanks.
      Alli




      --
      If you can make macaroni and cheese from a box, you can make a great beer.
    • Derek Hamlet
      Small Point but they are metabisulfites, not metabisulphates. Two different animals. Also, (and this is just me). I sulfite my wines immediately after
      Message 2 of 30 , Aug 30 10:26 AM
        Small Point but they are metabisulfites, not metabisulphates. Two
        different animals.
        Also, (and this is just me). I sulfite my wines immediately after
        crushing to kill any wild yeasts. But I wait 24 hours before
        pitching my good yeast.
        I may be all wrong but when distilling I prepare my sulfited wort,
        aerate the daylights out of it for 8 hours before pitching my
        yeast. The aeration will add the oxygen and also disperses the
        metabi (I aim for 25ppm) so it is pretty much gone into the air when
        I pitch my yeast. For the most part I also use killer yeasts that
        are strong enough to kill any wild (usually weaker) yeasts.
        At 09:58 AM 8/30/2011, you wrote:
        >
        >
        >When aerating you are shooting for a fast start to the Yeast
        >fermentation to out compete other organisms. This should not be an
        >issue if using a large healthy active yeast pitch. No Sulfate
        >required. traditionally a grain mash is allowed to ferment with some
        >souring agent (sour mash) but a fast yeast start will minimize that.
        >No worries.

        Derek
        I've traveled a long way
        And some of the roads weren't paved
      • JD
        cover it with a wet towel. putt the airhose between the lid and tun. greets
        Message 3 of 30 , Aug 30 10:46 AM
          cover it with a wet towel.
          putt the airhose between the lid and tun.

          greets

          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Alli" <allibugger@...> wrote:
          >
          > In this business more than many the devil is in the details. When areating for 4-6 hours after the yeast has been pitched, how does one keep the air borne wild yeast out of the mash? I thought of putting the lid on the fermentor and running the air hose through the hole for the airlock, but that might restrict the air flow in/out of the vessel. Just wordering how other folks do this. Thanks.
          > Alli
          >
        • JerryM
          I aeration necessary if you are pitching trub? Thanks.
          Message 4 of 30 , Jan 19, 2013
            I aeration necessary if you are pitching trub? Thanks.
          • Fredrick Lee
            Aeration is always needed. The yeast cells will consume oxygen and end up cloning themselves. Sometime shortly after the oxygen runs out, they start fuckin,
            Message 5 of 30 , Jan 19, 2013
              Aeration is always needed. The yeast cells will consume oxygen and end up cloning themselves. Sometime shortly after the oxygen runs out, they start fuckin, which leads to mutations. The more mutation, the less control you have, the less chance you'll make that one amazing recipe again.  I would use oxygenated yeast no more than 11 generations. 

              On Jan 19, 2013, at 3:28 PM, "JerryM" <jkmccull@...> wrote:

               

              I aeration necessary if you are pitching trub? Thanks.

            • o1bigtenor
              ... Why 11? D
              Message 6 of 30 , Jan 19, 2013
                On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...> wrote:


                Aeration is always needed. The yeast cells will consume oxygen and end up cloning themselves. Sometime shortly after the oxygen runs out, they start fuckin, which leads to mutations. The more mutation, the less control you have, the less chance you'll make that one amazing recipe again.  I would use oxygenated yeast no more than 11 generations. 


                Why 11?                       D
              • RLB
                Most of my reading suggests no more than 10 generations.  They hint that yeast burns out after 10 generation.  It s still there, but it s weaker against wild
                Message 7 of 30 , Jan 19, 2013
                  Most of my reading suggests no more than 10 generations.  They hint that yeast burns out after 10 generation.  It's still there, but it's weaker against wild yeast and bacteria.

                  Robert



                  From: o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@...>
                  To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2013 11:21 PM
                  Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Aeration

                   


                  On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...> wrote:


                  Aeration is always needed. The yeast cells will consume oxygen and end up cloning themselves. Sometime shortly after the oxygen runs out, they start fuckin, which leads to mutations. The more mutation, the less control you have, the less chance you'll make that one amazing recipe again.  I would use oxygenated yeast no more than 11 generations. 


                  Why 11?                       D


                • Fredrick Lee
                  Even with aeration, the main fermentation phase causes enough mutations that after the 11th generation, flavor traits are significantly altered. After 16
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jan 20, 2013
                    Even with aeration, the main fermentation phase causes enough mutations that after the 11th generation, flavor traits are significantly altered. After 16 generations, the yeast cells are nearly indistinguishable from the original.  That said, there are breweries that have thousands of generations on their strains, the yeast can adapt to a system and become a "house strain." Usually attenuation suffers, or lag time or some trade off occurs from the original strain, but if it works for you, then go for it. Just don't expect consistent results. 


                    On Jan 19, 2013, at 11:21 PM, o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@...> wrote:

                     



                    On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...> wrote:


                    Aeration is always needed. The yeast cells will consume oxygen and end up cloning themselves. Sometime shortly after the oxygen runs out, they start fuckin, which leads to mutations. The more mutation, the less control you have, the less chance you'll make that one amazing recipe again.  I would use oxygenated yeast no more than 11 generations. 


                    Why 11?                       D

                  • o1bigtenor
                    ... 11 things have changed too much. Then you say that after 16 generations there is no change. Sorry only one of the foregoing can be true. D
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jan 20, 2013
                      On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 7:06 AM, Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...> wrote:


                      Even with aeration, the main fermentation phase causes enough mutations that after the 11th generation, flavor traits are significantly altered. After 16 generations, the yeast cells are nearly indistinguishable from the original.  That said, there are breweries that have thousands of generations on their strains, the yeast can adapt to a system and become a "house strain." Usually attenuation suffers, or lag time or some trade off occurs from the original strain, but if it works for you, then go for it. Just don't expect consistent results.

                      Sorry - - I asked why 11 generations and you responded its because after 11 things have changed too much. Then you say that after 16 generations there is no change. Sorry only one of the foregoing can be true.                  D

                    • Fredrick Lee
                      No after 16 it s changed so much that the strains are completely different you can barely even tell they were related without mitochondrial DNA testing.
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jan 20, 2013
                        No after 16 it's changed so much that the strains are completely different you can barely even tell they were related without mitochondrial DNA testing. 




                        On Jan 20, 2013, at 8:12 AM, o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@...> wrote:

                         



                        On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 7:06 AM, Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...> wrote:


                        Even with aeration, the main fermentation phase causes enough mutations that after the 11th generation, flavor traits are significantly altered. After 16 generations, the yeast cells are nearly indistinguishable from the original.  That said, there are breweries that have thousands of generations on their strains, the yeast can adapt to a system and become a "house strain." Usually attenuation suffers, or lag time or some trade off occurs from the original strain, but if it works for you, then go for it. Just don't expect consistent results.

                        Sorry - - I asked why 11 generations and you responded its because after 11 things have changed too much. Then you say that after 16 generations there is no change. Sorry only one of the foregoing can be true.                  D

                      • o1bigtenor
                        ... So how do the big breweries get consistent results with high replication numbers yeasts? D
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jan 20, 2013
                          On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 7:14 AM, Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...> wrote:


                          No after 16 it's changed so much that the strains are completely different you can barely even tell they were related without mitochondrial DNA testing.

                          Thank you for clarifying!

                          So how do the big breweries get consistent results with high replication numbers yeasts?                            D

                        • Fredrick Lee
                          ... 1.) House strains become accustomed to their environment and a certain flavor profile develops, but the yeast strains will continue to mutate until the
                          Message 12 of 30 , Jan 20, 2013
                            So how do the big breweries get consistent results with high replication numbers yeasts?                            D 

                            1.) House strains become accustomed to their environment and a certain flavor "profile" develops, but the yeast strains will continue to mutate until the most beneficial mutations are established.  Breweries with house strains must have consistent processes and ingredients to ensure the strain remains consistent as possible.

                            2.) Large breweries (and even small ones like ours) maintain a yeast lab where they keep a library of pure cultures of the strains (in sealed test tubes called slants). When the 11th batch goes out the door on the production line, the yeast lab prepares another pure strain from a slant on a Petri dish or culture flask, and subsequently grow it up until its big enough to pitch. In our case we grow it up to about 10 gallons, and pitch it into ~300 gallons.  What comes off that 300 gallon tank is used about 10 more times. Myself and our brewmaster (and a few others) can start noticing a very subtle change in the flavor around generations 5-6. The gas chromatograph in our lab also shows these differences, but 99% of people will not be able to tell, or if they can tell, it's not too much of a difference that they'll think the beer is defective. 

                            3.) Somewhere during the culturing phase, we'll select the colony from a petri dish and make a dozen or so new slants.  People also sell and trade slants.  This way, we can have access to hundreds of strains from all over the world.  



                            On Jan 20, 2013, at 9:38 AM, o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@...> wrote:

                             



                            On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 7:14 AM, Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...> wrote:


                            No after 16 it's changed so much that the strains are completely different you can barely even tell they were related without mitochondrial DNA testing.

                            Thank you for clarifying!

                            So how do the big breweries get consistent results with high replication numbers yeasts?                            D

                          • RLB
                            Most people don t raise their own yeast, so they don t worry about aeration.  At $0.99 per a 5g pack of yeast almost makes it not worth the effort of raising
                            Message 13 of 30 , Jan 20, 2013
                              Most people don't raise their own yeast, so they don't worry about aeration.  At $0.99 per a 5g pack of yeast almost makes it not worth the effort of raising your own yeast.

                              Robert



                              From: Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...>
                              To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 8:14 AM
                              Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Aeration

                               
                              No after 16 it's changed so much that the strains are completely different you can barely even tell they were related without mitochondrial DNA testing. 




                              On Jan 20, 2013, at 8:12 AM, o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@...> wrote:

                               


                              On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 7:06 AM, Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...> wrote:


                              Even with aeration, the main fermentation phase causes enough mutations that after the 11th generation, flavor traits are significantly altered. After 16 generations, the yeast cells are nearly indistinguishable from the original.  That said, there are breweries that have thousands of generations on their strains, the yeast can adapt to a system and become a "house strain." Usually attenuation suffers, or lag time or some trade off occurs from the original strain, but if it works for you, then go for it. Just don't expect consistent results.

                              Sorry - - I asked why 11 generations and you responded its because after 11 things have changed too much. Then you say that after 16 generations there is no change. Sorry only one of the foregoing can be true.                  D



                            • ballard_bootlegger
                              In short: No. :-)
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jan 23, 2013
                                In short: No. :-)

                                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gavinflett" wrote:
                                >
                                > Does anyone think it's possible to aerate the wash too much to the point where it kills the ferment?
                                >
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