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Re: [new_distillers] Re: Mashing

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  • Adam Fordham
    Don t know if this helps as I m not a beer Brewer but I get a noticeable increase in my mashing effecincy when I adjust my Ph to 5 or 6.
    Message 1 of 21 , May 7 9:41 AM
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      Don't know if this helps as I'm not a beer Brewer but I get a noticeable increase in my mashing effecincy when I adjust my Ph to 5 or 6.


      Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android



      From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>;
      To: <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>;
      Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Mashing
      Sent: Sat, May 7, 2011 4:16:26 PM

       

      Gavin,

      I don't have a direct answer to your problem, but our favorite beer is a
      strong scotch ale with water-grain-SG numbers very much like what you
      are trying to do. In metric, it's 8.64kg of (mixed) grains, in 22.6 l
      (before sparging) of water. While there may have been a wee bit of sugar
      left on the grain (but not a helluva lot), after sparging I had 26.4
      liters of 1.076 wort. Note that mashing was 75 minutes at 68.3 C.

      I'd suggest studying the differences between this recipe and what you
      are doing, and if that doesn't work, make some of the beer and just
      chill out. It's wonderful stuff, and has won a lot of brewing contests.

      Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gavinflett" <gavin_flett@...>
      wrote:

      >
      > I have been mashing for a little while now (27 batches). I have always
      mashed with a 4:1 ratio of water to grain and that got me 1.062 gravity
      >
      > Now I have increased the ratio to 3.25:1 to shoot for a gravity of
      approximately 1.080. The thing is I am not getting that reading, I am
      still getting a 1.062 reading.
      >
      > I am mashing for 60 minutes with an average temperature of 65.5C, so
      what am I doing wrong? How long do I have to mash 8.3kg of grain in 27L
      of water?
      *************THE Scotch Ale Recipe******************
      This recipe makes a 6 gallon batch of Scotch ale.

      Brewing Method: All Grain
      Yeast: Nottingham Ale
      Yeast starter: pitched dry
      Batch Size: 6 gal Scotch ale
      Original Gravity: 1088
      Final Gravity: 1025
      Alcohol Content: 8.5 %
      Total Grains: 19 Lbs.
      Boiling Time: 70 mins.

      Grain Bill:

      7 lbs British Pale Ale Malt
      7 lbs American 2-row
      1 lbs cara-pils
      1 lb Munich Malt (8-10 Lov)
      2 lb medium crystal malt 60
      4 oz chocolate malt
      4 oz roasted barley
      8 oz Canadian honey malt

      Hop Bill: Scotch ale

      1/2 oz fuggles whole hops boil 70 mins
      1/2 oz fuggles whole hops 10 mins.
      Add Irish moss for the last 10 mins

      Mash Schedule:

      Mash at 155 for 75 mins mash out at 170 5 mins
      Sparge 170
      1 tsp gypsum in 6 gallons mash water (my water is soft)
      2 tsp gypsum in 8 gallons sparge water
      Sparge to get ~7 gallons. In a 70-minute boil this will yield about 6
      gallons.

      **********************************************************8

      12/31/07
      Scotch ale SG before boil 1.076
      Scotch ale SG after boil 1.085

      10/10/10

    • Gavin Flett
      To Zymurgy an Adam, Thanks for the replies, I am actually going for Whisky not beer but I m sure that makes no difference the process is almost the same. I
      Message 2 of 21 , May 9 9:00 AM
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        To Zymurgy an Adam, 

        Thanks for the replies, I am actually going for Whisky not beer but I'm sure that makes no difference the process is almost the same. I have been experimenting with using the backset, and although it's traditionally used in a corn mash I have been using it in barley. I am not sure if this is part of what's wrong (using it in a barley mash vice corn), but judging by what Adam said maybe my pH is too low as I have been increasing the amount of backset in each subsequent batch (I am up to using 50% now and will stop there).

        One question I do have though, will I get a higher SG if I mash it for longer. Or do I just have to reach the 40 minute mark and that's as good as it's going to get?

        And one Q for you Zymurgy, how did you manage to get more wort after sparging? Every time I do it I lose about 20% of my liquid to the grain, and no matter how long I leave it, it's disappeared.


        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
        From: zymurgybob@...
        Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 16:16:26 +0000
        Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Mashing

         
        Gavin,

        I don't have a direct answer to your problem, but our favorite beer is a
        strong scotch ale with water-grain-SG numbers very much like what you
        are trying to do. In metric, it's 8.64kg of (mixed) grains, in 22.6 l
        (before sparging) of water. While there may have been a wee bit of sugar
        left on the grain (but not a helluva lot), after sparging I had 26.4
        liters of 1.076 wort. Note that mashing was 75 minutes at 68.3 C.

        I'd suggest studying the differences between this recipe and what you
        are doing, and if that doesn't work, make some of the beer and just
        chill out. It's wonderful stuff, and has won a lot of brewing contests.

        Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gavinflett" <gavin_flett@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > I have been mashing for a little while now (27 batches). I have always
        mashed with a 4:1 ratio of water to grain and that got me 1.062 gravity
        >
        > Now I have increased the ratio to 3.25:1 to shoot for a gravity of
        approximately 1.080. The thing is I am not getting that reading, I am
        still getting a 1.062 reading.
        >
        > I am mashing for 60 minutes with an average temperature of 65.5C, so
        what am I doing wrong? How long do I have to mash 8.3kg of grain in 27L
        of water?
        *************THE Scotch Ale Recipe******************
        This recipe makes a 6 gallon batch of Scotch ale.

        Brewing Method: All Grain
        Yeast: Nottingham Ale
        Yeast starter: pitched dry
        Batch Size: 6 gal Scotch ale
        Original Gravity: 1088
        Final Gravity: 1025
        Alcohol Content: 8.5 %
        Total Grains: 19 Lbs.
        Boiling Time: 70 mins.

        Grain Bill:

        7 lbs British Pale Ale Malt
        7 lbs American 2-row
        1 lbs cara-pils
        1 lb Munich Malt (8-10 Lov)
        2 lb medium crystal malt 60
        4 oz chocolate malt
        4 oz roasted barley
        8 oz Canadian honey malt

        Hop Bill: Scotch ale

        1/2 oz fuggles whole hops boil 70 mins
        1/2 oz fuggles whole hops 10 mins.
        Add Irish moss for the last 10 mins

        Mash Schedule:

        Mash at 155 for 75 mins mash out at 170 5 mins
        Sparge 170
        1 tsp gypsum in 6 gallons mash water (my water is soft)
        2 tsp gypsum in 8 gallons sparge water
        Sparge to get ~7 gallons. In a 70-minute boil this will yield about 6
        gallons.

        **********************************************************8

        12/31/07
        Scotch ale SG before boil 1.076
        Scotch ale SG after boil 1.085

        10/10/10


      • tgfoitwoods
        Gavin, When you are comparing making beer and making barley whisky, the processes are almost identical, and the same principles apply. Of course whisky-wash
        Message 3 of 21 , May 9 12:53 PM
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          Gavin,

          When you are comparing making beer and making barley whisky, the
          processes are almost identical, and the same principles apply. Of course
          whisky-wash beer has no hops, and beer has no way to get backset, but
          other than that, the comparison holds.

          Technically, "lautering" is draining the liquid off the spent grain, and
          "sparging" is rinsing that lautered, spent grain with additional hot
          water to get that last bit of sugar. For that beer recipe I sparge with
          enough additional water to get 7 gallons total wort, before the boil.
          For mashing barley, I've never gone longer than 90 minutes, and that's
          always been plenty. I've never worried about adjusting pH for mashing,
          but maybe I should with con and backset.

          Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...>
          wrote:
          >
          >
          > To Zymurgy an Adam,
          > Thanks for the replies, I am actually going for Whisky not beer but
          I'm sure that makes no difference the process is almost the same. I have
          been experimenting with using the backset, and although it's
          traditionally used in a corn mash I have been using it in barley. I am
          not sure if this is part of what's wrong (using it in a barley mash vice
          corn), but judging by what Adam said maybe my pH is too low as I have
          been increasing the amount of backset in each subsequent batch (I am up
          to using 50% now and will stop there).
          > One question I do have though, will I get a higher SG if I mash it for
          longer. Or do I just have to reach the 40 minute mark and that's as good
          as it's going to get?
          > And one Q for you Zymurgy, how did you manage to get more wort after
          sparging? Every time I do it I lose about 20% of my liquid to the grain,
          and no matter how long I leave it, it's disappeared.
          >
          ----snip---
        • Gavin Flett
          Great Bob thanks again, If my pH is to low and I need to raise it, what can I do to raise it other than diluter the wash with more water? To:
          Message 4 of 21 , May 9 2:34 PM
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            Great Bob thanks again, 

            If my pH is to low and I need to raise it, what can I do to raise it other than diluter the wash with more water?


            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
            From: zymurgybob@...
            Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 19:53:26 +0000
            Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Mashing

             
            Gavin,

            When you are comparing making beer and making barley whisky, the
            processes are almost identical, and the same principles apply. Of course
            whisky-wash beer has no hops, and beer has no way to get backset, but
            other than that, the comparison holds.

            Technically, "lautering" is draining the liquid off the spent grain, and
            "sparging" is rinsing that lautered, spent grain with additional hot
            water to get that last bit of sugar. For that beer recipe I sparge with
            enough additional water to get 7 gallons total wort, before the boil.
            For mashing barley, I've never gone longer than 90 minutes, and that's
            always been plenty. I've never worried about adjusting pH for mashing,
            but maybe I should with con and backset.

            Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...>
            wrote:
            >
            >
            > To Zymurgy an Adam,
            > Thanks for the replies, I am actually going for Whisky not beer but
            I'm sure that makes no difference the process is almost the same. I have
            been experimenting with using the backset, and although it's
            traditionally used in a corn mash I have been using it in barley. I am
            not sure if this is part of what's wrong (using it in a barley mash vice
            corn), but judging by what Adam said maybe my pH is too low as I have
            been increasing the amount of backset in each subsequent batch (I am up
            to using 50% now and will stop there).
            > One question I do have though, will I get a higher SG if I mash it for
            longer. Or do I just have to reach the 40 minute mark and that's as good
            as it's going to get?
            > And one Q for you Zymurgy, how did you manage to get more wort after
            sparging? Every time I do it I lose about 20% of my liquid to the grain,
            and no matter how long I leave it, it's disappeared.
            >
            ----snip---


          • tgfoitwoods
            Gavin, This gies you better detail than anything I can dream up. http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14-6.html I also like it because he agrees with my
            Message 5 of 21 , May 9 3:54 PM
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              Gavin,

              This gies you better detail than anything I can dream up.

              http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14-6.html

              I also like it because he agrees with my "Don't screw with the pH unless you know absolutely for sure it's what's biting your butt, and absolutely sure why" principle.  Un-enlightened putzing with pH can open many worm cans. If you absolutely must raise pH, winemakers go with calcium carbonate or potassium carbonate because they don't mess up flavor/mouthfeel much, but for whisky, sodium carbonate or bicarbonate will work, 'cause none of that stuff goes through the still.

              Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Great Bob thanks again,
              > If my pH is to low and I need to raise it, what can I do to raise it other than diluter the wash with more water?
              >
              >----snip----
            • Gavin Flett
              That is a plethora of good info, thank you kindly for that. Do you think that it s safe to apply the principles of beer making to Whiskey making. It gets
              Message 6 of 21 , May 9 8:47 PM
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                That is a plethora of good info, thank you kindly for that. Do you think that it's safe to apply the principles of beer making to Whiskey making. It gets pretty complicated with the chemical composition of the water and the flavours it introduces into the brew, does all of that apply to Whiskey, since after all it's being distilled?


                To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                From: zymurgybob@...
                Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 22:54:33 +0000
                Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Mashing

                 
                Gavin,

                This gies you better detail than anything I can dream up.

                http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14-6.html

                I also like it because he agrees with my "Don't screw with the pH unless you know absolutely for sure it's what's biting your butt, and absolutely sure why" principle.  Un-enlightened putzing with pH can open many worm cans. If you absolutely must raise pH, winemakers go with calcium carbonate or potassium carbonate because they don't mess up flavor/mouthfeel much, but for whisky, sodium carbonate or bicarbonate will work, 'cause none of that stuff goes through the still.

                Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Great Bob thanks again,
                > If my pH is to low and I need to raise it, what can I do to raise it other than diluter the wash with more water?
                >
                >----snip----

              • tampagamer
                That is a plethora of good info, thank you kindly for that. Do you think that it s safe to apply the principles of beer making to Whiskey making. It gets
                Message 7 of 21 , May 9 8:57 PM
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                  That is a plethora of good info, thank you kindly for that. Do you think that it's safe to apply the principles of beer making to Whiskey making. It gets pretty complicated with the chemical composition of the water and the flavours it introduces into the brew, does all of that apply to Whiskey, since after all it's being

                   

                  When using a reflux still it does not matter as crap in makes good out

                  However when using a pot still is appositely matters as your transmitting flavor with the alcohol  so only good in becomes good out

                  Magnus brewer

                • jamesonbeam1
                  Definitely Tamp, Read ZB s prior responses to this thread. Beer making and whiskey making are the same except for the ingredients - no hops. JB. aka Waldo.
                  Message 8 of 21 , May 10 4:29 AM
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                    Definitely Tamp,

                    Read ZB's prior responses to this thread. Beer making and whiskey
                    making are the same except for the ingredients - no hops.

                    JB. aka Waldo.

                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tampagamer" <tampagamer@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > That is a plethora of good info, thank you kindly for that. Do you
                    think
                    > that it's safe to apply the principles of beer making to Whiskey
                    making. It
                    > gets pretty complicated with the chemical composition of the water and
                    the
                    > flavours it introduces into the brew, does all of that apply to
                    Whiskey,
                    > since after all it's being
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > When using a reflux still it does not matter as crap in makes good out
                    >
                    > However when using a pot still is appositely matters as your
                    transmitting
                    > flavor with the alcohol so only good in becomes good out
                    >
                    > Magnus brewer
                    >
                  • Gavin Flett
                    Got it...... it would seem then that Whiskey making is faaaaaaaar more complex than I had originally anticipated. The more I know, the more I find out that I
                    Message 9 of 21 , May 10 5:40 PM
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                      Got it...... it would seem then that Whiskey making is faaaaaaaar more complex than I had originally anticipated. The more I know, the more I find out that I don't know. Thanks guys, I will now retire to my electronic library to read for a month or five.


                      To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      From: jamesonbeam1@...
                      Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 11:29:12 +0000
                      Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Mashing

                       
                      Definitely Tamp,

                      Read ZB's prior responses to this thread. Beer making and whiskey
                      making are the same except for the ingredients - no hops.

                      JB. aka Waldo.

                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tampagamer" <tampagamer@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > That is a plethora of good info, thank you kindly for that. Do you
                      think
                      > that it's safe to apply the principles of beer making to Whiskey
                      making. It
                      > gets pretty complicated with the chemical composition of the water and
                      the
                      > flavours it introduces into the brew, does all of that apply to
                      Whiskey,
                      > since after all it's being
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > When using a reflux still it does not matter as crap in makes good out
                      >
                      > However when using a pot still is appositely matters as your
                      transmitting
                      > flavor with the alcohol so only good in becomes good out
                      >
                      > Magnus brewer
                      >


                    • jkmccull
                      About 4 years back I made bourbon using the recipe of 5 lbs cracked corn, 1 lbs of cracked rye and 3.4 lbs of 6-row malted barley. I mashed the mixture,
                      Message 10 of 21 , Apr 16, 2014
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                        About 4 years back I made bourbon using the recipe of 5 lbs cracked corn, 1 lbs of cracked rye and 3.4 lbs of 6-row malted barley. I mashed the mixture, fermented, distilled and ended up with what I considered a good bourbon. I let the bourbon age for a few months and started sipping it. I gave some to my son-in-aw who stored it away with some charred white oak strips.  Once I started sipping the bourbon, it disappeared pretty fast. A month or so ago my son-in-law and I tasted the now 4 year old bourbon and good had turned to great. Now I have a hankering to make some more of the bourbon.

                         

                        I want to change my mashing procedure to see if I can increase the yield and make the process a little easier. I want to vigorously boil the cracked corn with the intent of extracting as much of the starch as possible. After the boiling I will strain out all the corn solids and save then. Then I will mash the corn starch, malted barley and cracked rye to convert to sugar. After the mashing, I will strain out all the solids and then ferment the resulting mixture with the corn, barley and rye solids in a mesh bag.

                         

                        Will this work?

                      • Jay cell
                        How much water did you add to the mash?
                        Message 11 of 21 , Apr 16, 2014
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                          How much water did you add to the mash?
                          On Apr 16, 2014, at 3:43 PM, <jkmccull@...> <jkmccull@...> wrote:



                          About 4 years back I made bourbon using the recipe of 5 lbs cracked corn, 1 lbs of cracked rye and 3.4 lbs of 6-row malted barley. I mashed the mixture, fermented, distilled and ended up with what I considered a good bourbon. I let the bourbon age for a few months and started sipping it. I gave some to my son-in-aw who stored it away with some charred white oak strips.  Once I started sipping the bourbon, it disappeared pretty fast. A month or so ago my son-in-law and I tasted the now 4 year old bourbon and good had turned to great. Now I have a hankering to make some more of the bourbon.

                           

                          I want to change my mashing procedure to see if I can increase the yield and make the process a little easier. I want to vigorously boil the cracked corn with the intent of extracting as much of the starch as possible. After the boiling I will strain out all the corn solids and save then. Then I will mash the corn starch, malted barley and cracked rye to convert to sugar. After the mashing, I will strain out all the solids and then ferment the resulting mixture with the corn, barley and rye solids in a mesh bag.

                           

                          Will this work?



                        • Jim Graves
                          You really don t want to boil the corn, rather bring the water to a boil, add the corn and then maintain a temp of 152-160F for several hours, for me, the
                          Message 12 of 21 , Apr 16, 2014
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                            You really don't want to "boil" the corn, rather bring the water to a boil, add the corn and then maintain a temp of 152-160F for several hours, for me, the longer the better, but don't boil the corn. When you do you kill the necessary enzymes and other good stuff that makes the mash a mash. I would crack the rye and do it with the corn and then the next day, with temp still at 150F add the malted barley. I leave it all together and let it cool before pitching the yeast and then let it work until it clears and it will. then carefully pump the liquids off, distill and then to the mash add sugar(1 to 1 1/2 pounds per gallon) and then pump the spent liquid back into it and let it ferment again. This is now sour mash and boy howdy is it good! You can do this 10-12 times, the mash is giving the flavor, the sugar giving the alcohol...

                            If you can age the liquor in a oak keg, you will really get true whiskey. Only putting slabs in sealed containers is just giving it a oak taste.  Oxygen will pass thru the oak kegs and this is where the liquor is truly aged. Whiskey put in a glass jar and let set for four years is only as old as it was the day you put it in the jar! It will NOT age in glass...

                            Just my .02$ worth Jim

                            --------------------------------------------
                            On Wed, 4/16/14, jkmccull@... <jkmccull@...> wrote:

                            Subject: [new_distillers] Mashing
                            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Wednesday, April 16, 2014, 2:43 PM
















                             











                            About 4
                            years back I made bourbon using the recipe
                            of 5 lbs cracked corn, 1 lbs of cracked rye and 3.4 lbs of
                            6-row malted barley.
                            I mashed the mixture, fermented, distilled and ended up with
                            what I considered a
                            good bourbon. I let the bourbon age for a few months and
                            started sipping it. I
                            gave some to my son-in-aw who stored it away with some
                            charred white oak
                            strips.  Once I started sipping the
                            bourbon,
                            it disappeared pretty fast. A month or so ago my son-in-law
                            and I tasted the
                            now 4 year old bourbon and good had turned to great. Now I
                            have a hankering to
                            make some more of the bourbon.

                             

                            I
                            want to change my mashing procedure to see if I can increase
                            the yield and make
                            the process a little easier. I want to vigorously boil the
                            cracked corn with
                            the intent of extracting as much of the starch as possible.
                            After the boiling I
                            will strain out all the corn solids and save then. Then I
                            will mash the corn
                            starch, malted barley and cracked rye to convert to sugar.
                            After the mashing, I
                            will strain out all the solids and then ferment the
                            resulting mixture with the
                            corn, barley and rye solids in a mesh bag.

                             

                            Will
                            this work?
                          • Jerry McCullough
                            3 gallons of water for the mashing. After I had converted the starch to sugar, the mash mixture was diluted with water until I had a grain and water  volume
                            Message 13 of 21 , Apr 17, 2014
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                              3 gallons of water for the mashing. After I had converted the starch to sugar, the mash mixture was diluted with water until I had a grain and water  volume of 16 gallons. That was what I fermented. I got the recipe from the archives quite a few years ago. The recipe also included the mashing instructions. It warned about how thick the mixture became and how essential the stirring was.  I did several batches like this.  

                              Once the corn started converting and the grain absorbed a lot of the water, the mixture was so thick that it took extreme effort to keep it stirred and from burning. I had to throw away one batch due to burning. My attention had wandered momentarily because I was so tired and that was all it took to burn the mash. The entire mashing process took 8+ hours per batch. I did end up with about 8% potential ABV without adding any sugar.  

                              My thought was by boiling the starch from the corn, I would halve the amount of grain that I would be mashing thereby keeping the mash from being so thick. If the mash was thinner then stirring would be easier and less chance of burning.

                              Jerry McCullough
                              On Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:08 PM, Jay cell <adamsfly@...> wrote:
                               
                              How much water did you add to the mash?
                              On Apr 16, 2014, at 3:43 PM, <jkmccull@...> <jkmccull@...> wrote:



                              About 4 years back I made bourbon using the recipe of 5 lbs cracked corn, 1 lbs of cracked rye and 3.4 lbs of 6-row malted barley. I mashed the mixture, fermented, distilled and ended up with what I considered a good bourbon. I let the bourbon age for a few months and started sipping it. I gave some to my son-in-aw who stored it away with some charred white oak strips.  Once I started sipping the bourbon, it disappeared pretty fast. A month or so ago my son-in-law and I tasted the now 4 year old bourbon and good had turned to great. Now I have a hankering to make some more of the bourbon.
                               
                              I want to change my mashing procedure to see if I can increase the yield and make the process a little easier. I want to vigorously boil the cracked corn with the intent of extracting as much of the starch as possible. After the boiling I will strain out all the corn solids and save then. Then I will mash the corn starch, malted barley and cracked rye to convert to sugar. After the mashing, I will strain out all the solids and then ferment the resulting mixture with the corn, barley and rye solids in a mesh bag.
                               
                              Will this work?





                            • Robert Hubble
                              Jerry, From my own personal experience, boiling the corn to gelatinize the starch crystals makes the biggest, gummiest, mess of all, but there are a couple of
                              Message 14 of 21 , Apr 17, 2014
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                                Jerry,

                                From my own personal experience, boiling the corn to gelatinize the starch crystals makes the biggest, gummiest, mess of all, but there are a couple of ways around making epoxy/corn/gum. Adding some ordinary enzymes (either store-bought or from malted barley) to cold water and grain will hydrolyze a lot of the gummy stuff on the way up to boiling temperatures (I think it's called pre-malting), even though the enzymes will be denatured finally in the process. The rest of the process is the normal cool to 152 and then add final mashing enzymes.

                                A super variation on that is the get some of our own Pint-o-shine's high temperature enzymes, and reduce that corn to liquid, and the starch to dextrins and then to sugar, all in pretty much one pass. This video is a real eye-opener to anyone that's fought the dreaded corn gum/goop.
                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtnboJ3Kxeo&list=UUG034xngTRhbEAxK8Wya5Gg

                                Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller


                                To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                From: jkmccull@...
                                Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 14:03:53 -0700
                                Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Mashing

                                 

                                3 gallons of water for the mashing. After I had converted the starch to sugar, the mash mixture was diluted with water until I had a grain and water  volume of 16 gallons. That was what I fermented. I got the recipe from the archives quite a few years ago. The recipe also included the mashing instructions. It warned about how thick the mixture became and how essential the stirring was.  I did several batches like this.  

                                Once the corn started converting and the grain absorbed a lot of the water, the mixture was so thick that it took extreme effort to keep it stirred and from burning. I had to throw away one batch due to burning. My attention had wandered momentarily because I was so tired and that was all it took to burn the mash. The entire mashing process took 8+ hours per batch. I did end up with about 8% potential ABV without adding any sugar.  

                                My thought was by boiling the starch from the corn, I would halve the amount of grain that I would be mashing thereby keeping the mash from being so thick. If the mash was thinner then stirring would be easier and less chance of burning.

                                Jerry McCullough
                                On Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:08 PM, Jay cell <adamsfly@...> wrote:
                                 
                                How much water did you add to the mash?
                                On Apr 16, 2014, at 3:43 PM, <jkmccull@...> <jkmccull@...> wrote:



                                About 4 years back I made bourbon using the recipe of 5 lbs cracked corn, 1 lbs of cracked rye and 3.4 lbs of 6-row malted barley. I mashed the mixture, fermented, distilled and ended up with what I considered a good bourbon. I let the bourbon age for a few months and started sipping it. I gave some to my son-in-aw who stored it away with some charred white oak strips.  Once I started sipping the bourbon, it disappeared pretty fast. A month or so ago my son-in-law and I tasted the now 4 year old bourbon and good had turned to great. Now I have a hankering to make some more of the bourbon.
                                 
                                I want to change my mashing procedure to see if I can increase the yield and make the process a little easier. I want to vigorously boil the cracked corn with the intent of extracting as much of the starch as possible. After the boiling I will strain out all the corn solids and save then. Then I will mash the corn starch, malted barley and cracked rye to convert to sugar. After the mashing, I will strain out all the solids and then ferment the resulting mixture with the corn, barley and rye solids in a mesh bag.
                                 
                                Will this work?






                              • RLB
                                Thank you for validating most of my plan.  I have my ground corn, barley, wheat, and malted barley already mixed, and just need to pick up a new pillow
                                Message 15 of 21 , Apr 17, 2014
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                                  Thank you for validating most of my plan.  I have my ground corn, barley, wheat, and malted barley already mixed, and just need to pick up a new pillow case.  Will cook it all at 152 ish for 1.5 hrs., then take it up to a good boil.  Cool it to 152 ish and add more barley malt.  Let it cool slowly to 80 F and remove pillow case with grain.  Wash grain with with clean water and pitch yeast.  Add DAP and other stuff for a great tasting bourbon  wash.

                                  My gummy gooey mess is still inside my pillow case, so I flatten out the grain filled pillow case onto a cookie sheet.  Then it will be set on top of my malt dryer or slipped into my dehydrator until dry.  Later, separate grain cake from pillow case, place grain cake into storage for other uses, and toss pillow case into the washer.   I will let you know how well this works out once I move into my malt house/workshop in May.

                                  Robert


                                  From: Robert Hubble <zymurgybob@...>
                                  To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 6:08 PM
                                  Subject: RE: [new_distillers] Mashing

                                   
                                  Jerry,

                                  From my own personal experience, boiling the corn to gelatinize the starch crystals makes the biggest, gummiest, mess of all, but there are a couple of ways around making epoxy/corn/gum. Adding some ordinary enzymes (either store-bought or from malted barley) to cold water and grain will hydrolyze a lot of the gummy stuff on the way up to boiling temperatures (I think it's called pre-malting), even though the enzymes will be denatured finally in the process. The rest of the process is the normal cool to 152 and then add final mashing enzymes.

                                  A super variation on that is the get some of our own Pint-o-shine's high temperature enzymes, and reduce that corn to liquid, and the starch to dextrins and then to sugar, all in pretty much one pass. This video is a real eye-opener to anyone that's fought the dreaded corn gum/goop.
                                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtnboJ3Kxeo&list=UUG034xngTRhbEAxK8Wya5Gg

                                  Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

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