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Re: Aeration

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  • brzdistiller
    I ve seen a lot of people advising the use of an aquarium pump and stone, but was wondering how one goes about cleaning that porous stone? I ve been using a
    Message 1 of 30 , Apr 6, 2011
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      I've seen a lot of people advising the use of an aquarium pump and stone, but was wondering how one goes about cleaning that porous stone?

      I've been using a blender or hand mixer to aerate my starter for a few minutes before pitching the yeast. After the yeast is introduced, I let it work for 24 hours in this mixture of sugar water and tomato paste than add it to the mash.

      Is this enough?
    • Harry
      ... Don t use an ordinary stone. They re glued together. They will fall apart with exposure to alcohol. You need one of these...
      Message 2 of 30 , Apr 6, 2011
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        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "brzdistiller" <brzdistiller@...> wrote:
        >
        > I've seen a lot of people advising the use of an aquarium pump and stone, but was wondering how one goes about cleaning that porous stone?


        Don't use an ordinary stone. They're glued together. They will fall apart with exposure to alcohol. You need one of these...
        http://www.homebrewing.com/equipment/stainless-steel-air-stone.php
        >
        > I've been using a blender or hand mixer to aerate my starter for a few minutes before pitching the yeast. After the yeast is introduced, I let it work for 24 hours in this mixture of sugar water and tomato paste than add it to the mash.
        >
        > Is this enough?
        >

        I use 100gm yeast granulated to start a 60 litre ferment. I take a 2 litre jug, add 300-400 ml of 40C water, and 100ml of my prepared wort. Then add the yeast, dissolve it (use your hand to squeeze it into the liquid). Let it set for about 10 minutes and it will fill the 2-litre jug with froth. This is what I pitch into the wort. Then bag it or airlock it, your choice.

        The rationale is to re-hydrate the dried granulated yeast using a weak mixture of the wort environment it is to work in (too strong will shock the yeast), and have it warm enough to rapidly absorb the moisture and activate.

        It never fails with DGY, but don't do it with turbos. If using turbos, always follow maker's instructions.


        Slainte!
        regards Harry
      • Alli
        In this business more than many the devil is in the details. When areating for 4-6 hours after the yeast has been pitched, how does one keep the air borne
        Message 3 of 30 , Aug 30, 2011
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          In this business more than many the devil is in the details. When areating for 4-6 hours after the yeast has been pitched, how does one keep the air borne wild yeast out of the mash? I thought of putting the lid on the fermentor and running the air hose through the hole for the airlock, but that might restrict the air flow in/out of the vessel. Just wordering how other folks do this. Thanks.
          Alli
        • Bob Glicksman
          In winemaking, the wort is sulfated so that sulpher dioxide gas is released and kills the wild yeast, bacteria, and other undersireable organisms. Wine yeast
          Message 4 of 30 , Aug 30, 2011
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            In winemaking, the wort is sulfated so that sulpher dioxide gas is released and kills the wild yeast, bacteria, and other undersireable organisms.  Wine yeast is bred to tolerate higher levels of sulfates than do wild varieties.  Use sodium bisulfate (campden tablets) or potassium metabisulfate power.  These are availabe in any wine/beermaking store.



            -----Original Message-----
            From: Alli <allibugger@...>
            To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tue, Aug 30, 2011 9:05 am
            Subject: [new_distillers] Aeration

             
            In this business more than many the devil is in the details. When areating for 4-6 hours after the yeast has been pitched, how does one keep the air borne wild yeast out of the mash? I thought of putting the lid on the fermentor and running the air hose through the hole for the airlock, but that might restrict the air flow in/out of the vessel. Just wordering how other folks do this. Thanks.
            Alli

          • Ric Cunningham
            When aerating you are shooting for a fast start to the Yeast fermentation to out compete other organisms. This should not be an issue if using a large healthy
            Message 5 of 30 , Aug 30, 2011
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              When aerating you are shooting for a fast start to the Yeast fermentation to out compete other organisms. This should not be an issue if using a large healthy active yeast pitch. No Sulfate required. traditionally a grain mash is allowed to ferment with some souring agent (sour mash) but a fast yeast start will minimize that. No worries. 

              On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 10:44 AM, Bob Glicksman <bobg542492@...> wrote:
               

              In winemaking, the wort is sulfated so that sulpher dioxide gas is released and kills the wild yeast, bacteria, and other undersireable organisms.  Wine yeast is bred to tolerate higher levels of sulfates than do wild varieties.  Use sodium bisulfate (campden tablets) or potassium metabisulfate power.  These are availabe in any wine/beermaking store.





              -----Original Message-----
              From: Alli <allibugger@...>
              To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tue, Aug 30, 2011 9:05 am
              Subject: [new_distillers] Aeration

               
              In this business more than many the devil is in the details. When areating for 4-6 hours after the yeast has been pitched, how does one keep the air borne wild yeast out of the mash? I thought of putting the lid on the fermentor and running the air hose through the hole for the airlock, but that might restrict the air flow in/out of the vessel. Just wordering how other folks do this. Thanks.
              Alli




              --
              If you can make macaroni and cheese from a box, you can make a great beer.
            • Derek Hamlet
              Small Point but they are metabisulfites, not metabisulphates. Two different animals. Also, (and this is just me). I sulfite my wines immediately after
              Message 6 of 30 , Aug 30, 2011
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                Small Point but they are metabisulfites, not metabisulphates. Two
                different animals.
                Also, (and this is just me). I sulfite my wines immediately after
                crushing to kill any wild yeasts. But I wait 24 hours before
                pitching my good yeast.
                I may be all wrong but when distilling I prepare my sulfited wort,
                aerate the daylights out of it for 8 hours before pitching my
                yeast. The aeration will add the oxygen and also disperses the
                metabi (I aim for 25ppm) so it is pretty much gone into the air when
                I pitch my yeast. For the most part I also use killer yeasts that
                are strong enough to kill any wild (usually weaker) yeasts.
                At 09:58 AM 8/30/2011, you wrote:
                >
                >
                >When aerating you are shooting for a fast start to the Yeast
                >fermentation to out compete other organisms. This should not be an
                >issue if using a large healthy active yeast pitch. No Sulfate
                >required. traditionally a grain mash is allowed to ferment with some
                >souring agent (sour mash) but a fast yeast start will minimize that.
                >No worries.

                Derek
                I've traveled a long way
                And some of the roads weren't paved
              • JD
                cover it with a wet towel. putt the airhose between the lid and tun. greets
                Message 7 of 30 , Aug 30, 2011
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                  cover it with a wet towel.
                  putt the airhose between the lid and tun.

                  greets

                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Alli" <allibugger@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > In this business more than many the devil is in the details. When areating for 4-6 hours after the yeast has been pitched, how does one keep the air borne wild yeast out of the mash? I thought of putting the lid on the fermentor and running the air hose through the hole for the airlock, but that might restrict the air flow in/out of the vessel. Just wordering how other folks do this. Thanks.
                  > Alli
                  >
                • JerryM
                  I aeration necessary if you are pitching trub? Thanks.
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jan 19, 2013
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                    I aeration necessary if you are pitching trub? Thanks.
                  • Fredrick Lee
                    Aeration is always needed. The yeast cells will consume oxygen and end up cloning themselves. Sometime shortly after the oxygen runs out, they start fuckin,
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jan 19, 2013
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                      Aeration is always needed. The yeast cells will consume oxygen and end up cloning themselves. Sometime shortly after the oxygen runs out, they start fuckin, which leads to mutations. The more mutation, the less control you have, the less chance you'll make that one amazing recipe again.  I would use oxygenated yeast no more than 11 generations. 

                      On Jan 19, 2013, at 3:28 PM, "JerryM" <jkmccull@...> wrote:

                       

                      I aeration necessary if you are pitching trub? Thanks.

                    • o1bigtenor
                      ... Why 11? D
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jan 19, 2013
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                        On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...> wrote:


                        Aeration is always needed. The yeast cells will consume oxygen and end up cloning themselves. Sometime shortly after the oxygen runs out, they start fuckin, which leads to mutations. The more mutation, the less control you have, the less chance you'll make that one amazing recipe again.  I would use oxygenated yeast no more than 11 generations. 


                        Why 11?                       D
                      • RLB
                        Most of my reading suggests no more than 10 generations.  They hint that yeast burns out after 10 generation.  It s still there, but it s weaker against wild
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jan 19, 2013
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                          Most of my reading suggests no more than 10 generations.  They hint that yeast burns out after 10 generation.  It's still there, but it's weaker against wild yeast and bacteria.

                          Robert



                          From: o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@...>
                          To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2013 11:21 PM
                          Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Aeration

                           


                          On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...> wrote:


                          Aeration is always needed. The yeast cells will consume oxygen and end up cloning themselves. Sometime shortly after the oxygen runs out, they start fuckin, which leads to mutations. The more mutation, the less control you have, the less chance you'll make that one amazing recipe again.  I would use oxygenated yeast no more than 11 generations. 


                          Why 11?                       D


                        • Fredrick Lee
                          Even with aeration, the main fermentation phase causes enough mutations that after the 11th generation, flavor traits are significantly altered. After 16
                          Message 12 of 30 , Jan 20, 2013
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                            Even with aeration, the main fermentation phase causes enough mutations that after the 11th generation, flavor traits are significantly altered. After 16 generations, the yeast cells are nearly indistinguishable from the original.  That said, there are breweries that have thousands of generations on their strains, the yeast can adapt to a system and become a "house strain." Usually attenuation suffers, or lag time or some trade off occurs from the original strain, but if it works for you, then go for it. Just don't expect consistent results. 


                            On Jan 19, 2013, at 11:21 PM, o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@...> wrote:

                             



                            On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...> wrote:


                            Aeration is always needed. The yeast cells will consume oxygen and end up cloning themselves. Sometime shortly after the oxygen runs out, they start fuckin, which leads to mutations. The more mutation, the less control you have, the less chance you'll make that one amazing recipe again.  I would use oxygenated yeast no more than 11 generations. 


                            Why 11?                       D

                          • o1bigtenor
                            ... 11 things have changed too much. Then you say that after 16 generations there is no change. Sorry only one of the foregoing can be true. D
                            Message 13 of 30 , Jan 20, 2013
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                              On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 7:06 AM, Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...> wrote:


                              Even with aeration, the main fermentation phase causes enough mutations that after the 11th generation, flavor traits are significantly altered. After 16 generations, the yeast cells are nearly indistinguishable from the original.  That said, there are breweries that have thousands of generations on their strains, the yeast can adapt to a system and become a "house strain." Usually attenuation suffers, or lag time or some trade off occurs from the original strain, but if it works for you, then go for it. Just don't expect consistent results.

                              Sorry - - I asked why 11 generations and you responded its because after 11 things have changed too much. Then you say that after 16 generations there is no change. Sorry only one of the foregoing can be true.                  D

                            • Fredrick Lee
                              No after 16 it s changed so much that the strains are completely different you can barely even tell they were related without mitochondrial DNA testing.
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jan 20, 2013
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                                No after 16 it's changed so much that the strains are completely different you can barely even tell they were related without mitochondrial DNA testing. 




                                On Jan 20, 2013, at 8:12 AM, o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@...> wrote:

                                 



                                On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 7:06 AM, Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...> wrote:


                                Even with aeration, the main fermentation phase causes enough mutations that after the 11th generation, flavor traits are significantly altered. After 16 generations, the yeast cells are nearly indistinguishable from the original.  That said, there are breweries that have thousands of generations on their strains, the yeast can adapt to a system and become a "house strain." Usually attenuation suffers, or lag time or some trade off occurs from the original strain, but if it works for you, then go for it. Just don't expect consistent results.

                                Sorry - - I asked why 11 generations and you responded its because after 11 things have changed too much. Then you say that after 16 generations there is no change. Sorry only one of the foregoing can be true.                  D

                              • o1bigtenor
                                ... So how do the big breweries get consistent results with high replication numbers yeasts? D
                                Message 15 of 30 , Jan 20, 2013
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                                  On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 7:14 AM, Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...> wrote:


                                  No after 16 it's changed so much that the strains are completely different you can barely even tell they were related without mitochondrial DNA testing.

                                  Thank you for clarifying!

                                  So how do the big breweries get consistent results with high replication numbers yeasts?                            D

                                • Fredrick Lee
                                  ... 1.) House strains become accustomed to their environment and a certain flavor profile develops, but the yeast strains will continue to mutate until the
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Jan 20, 2013
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                                    So how do the big breweries get consistent results with high replication numbers yeasts?                            D 

                                    1.) House strains become accustomed to their environment and a certain flavor "profile" develops, but the yeast strains will continue to mutate until the most beneficial mutations are established.  Breweries with house strains must have consistent processes and ingredients to ensure the strain remains consistent as possible.

                                    2.) Large breweries (and even small ones like ours) maintain a yeast lab where they keep a library of pure cultures of the strains (in sealed test tubes called slants). When the 11th batch goes out the door on the production line, the yeast lab prepares another pure strain from a slant on a Petri dish or culture flask, and subsequently grow it up until its big enough to pitch. In our case we grow it up to about 10 gallons, and pitch it into ~300 gallons.  What comes off that 300 gallon tank is used about 10 more times. Myself and our brewmaster (and a few others) can start noticing a very subtle change in the flavor around generations 5-6. The gas chromatograph in our lab also shows these differences, but 99% of people will not be able to tell, or if they can tell, it's not too much of a difference that they'll think the beer is defective. 

                                    3.) Somewhere during the culturing phase, we'll select the colony from a petri dish and make a dozen or so new slants.  People also sell and trade slants.  This way, we can have access to hundreds of strains from all over the world.  



                                    On Jan 20, 2013, at 9:38 AM, o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@...> wrote:

                                     



                                    On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 7:14 AM, Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...> wrote:


                                    No after 16 it's changed so much that the strains are completely different you can barely even tell they were related without mitochondrial DNA testing.

                                    Thank you for clarifying!

                                    So how do the big breweries get consistent results with high replication numbers yeasts?                            D

                                  • RLB
                                    Most people don t raise their own yeast, so they don t worry about aeration.  At $0.99 per a 5g pack of yeast almost makes it not worth the effort of raising
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Jan 20, 2013
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                                      Most people don't raise their own yeast, so they don't worry about aeration.  At $0.99 per a 5g pack of yeast almost makes it not worth the effort of raising your own yeast.

                                      Robert



                                      From: Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...>
                                      To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 8:14 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Aeration

                                       
                                      No after 16 it's changed so much that the strains are completely different you can barely even tell they were related without mitochondrial DNA testing. 




                                      On Jan 20, 2013, at 8:12 AM, o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@...> wrote:

                                       


                                      On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 7:06 AM, Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...> wrote:


                                      Even with aeration, the main fermentation phase causes enough mutations that after the 11th generation, flavor traits are significantly altered. After 16 generations, the yeast cells are nearly indistinguishable from the original.  That said, there are breweries that have thousands of generations on their strains, the yeast can adapt to a system and become a "house strain." Usually attenuation suffers, or lag time or some trade off occurs from the original strain, but if it works for you, then go for it. Just don't expect consistent results.

                                      Sorry - - I asked why 11 generations and you responded its because after 11 things have changed too much. Then you say that after 16 generations there is no change. Sorry only one of the foregoing can be true.                  D



                                    • ballard_bootlegger
                                      In short: No. :-)
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Jan 23, 2013
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                                        In short: No. :-)

                                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gavinflett" wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Does anyone think it's possible to aerate the wash too much to the point where it kills the ferment?
                                        >
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