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using raw water

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  • bravo
    hi again if i was to use raw spring water for my ferment. of course as nature insist there will be bad organism and good ones now the question is knowing that
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 1 8:23 PM
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      hi again
      if i was to use raw spring water for my ferment.
      of course as nature insist there will be bad organism and good ones
      now the question is
      knowing that there is the bad microbacteria in there and i go ahead without treating the water first
      will the acid level that i will add kill them
      will the yeast kill them or will they kill the yeast
      and as teh alchohol start to produce will the co2 kill it or the alchohol level which at the end should be around 12%-15%abv

      which would be the best quemical to use to kill the bad guys at the very begining so that i dont have to wory about that
      remember its like 1000 liter mash
      thanks
      louis
    • geoff burrows
      I used to live in Sligo in the west of Ireland and all our drinking water was drawn from our artesian well high on the side of a hill. As have my wife s
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 2 12:51 AM
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             I used to live in Sligo in the west of Ireland and all our drinking water was drawn from our artesian well high on the side of a hill.  As have my wife's family (The Sherlocks) have drawn from the same well for over 2 to 3 hundred years and that's as far as we can search back in the records to.  All of the men in her family are healthy 6 foot plus men whose average age, baring accidents civil wars in Ireland, in the US and world wars, is well into the 80 year old plus.
             They have always used the well water and up until this last 15 years it has always been carried to the main house in white enamel buckets with the odd tad pole  swimming around in it.  I've done countless ferments in this water and washes. 
             And apparently my wife's great grandfather has done quite a few poteen mashes (with barley) that Trevelyan (a 38-year-old English civil servant named Charles Edward Trevelyan) didn't get a hold of.   Google the name, in Irish history he was a very bad man to put it mildly. 
             So what I'm really saying is if you would drink the water straight from the well, as possibly your parents or grand parents did, with no ill effects then i would say it's fine.
        HTH
        Geoff  
      • landrover_ffr
        Hi Bravo, Spring water should be just fine and dandy. I use well water of doubtful quality (almost undrinkable. I don t use it for dilution) with good results.
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 2 1:38 AM
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          Hi Bravo,
          Spring water should be just fine and dandy. I use well water of doubtful quality (almost undrinkable. I don't use it for dilution) with good results.
          As you are look at 1000 litre ferments I would recommend getting a full water test done. I got one for our new well (which has great tasting water) and I think it is well worth the investment. I don't have the test results on me, but I could find it if you are interested. It cost me about $200NZD and contained information on metals (lead, iron, copper etc.), biological nasties (fecal chloroforms, nitrates etc.) and softness, turbidity and the like.
          The information about metals and nasties is good to know for any product. The softness etc. is only really useful when brewing beer (hardness has a direct affect on perceived bitterness).
          My advice is that if you are getting serious, get a water test.
          Regards,
          Sid.
        • bravo
          thanks guys, i havedone a water test, there are some nasties in there but the norm nasties only wanted to know if those nasties would do like the yeast and
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 2 11:02 PM
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            thanks guys,
            i havedone a water test,
            there are some nasties in there
            but the norm nasties
            only wanted to know if those nasties would do like the yeast and explode in numbers when they see all the sex going on next to them
            lol
            the chemical contents are ok where metal is concern
            thanks for the reply
            if any body has some info about microbes reaction in a ferment
            do they strive or die
            would be glad to know
          • jamesonbeam1
            Bravo, You can kill any nasties in both the water and on you mango fruits using potassium or sodium metabisulfite, which is a chemical added to the
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 4 4:37 AM
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              Bravo,

              You can kill any nasties in both the water and on you mango fruits using potassium or sodium metabisulfite, which is a chemical added to the fermentation a day before the yeast is added.  This produces SO2 gas which will kill any bacterial.  It is used extensively in the wine industry for sterilizing a fermentation.  I believe potassium metabisulfite is the preferred one to use. 

              Add this to your fermentation before you add your yeast and wait 24 hours or so for the sulfer dioxide gas to escape before adding yeast. 

              JB. aka Waldo.

              Wine

              Potassium metabisulfite is a common wine or must additive, in which it forms sulfur dioxide gas (SO2). This both prevents most wild microorganisms from growing, and it acts as a potent antioxidant, protecting both the color and delicate flavors of wine.

              The typical dosage is 1/4 tsp potassium metabisulfite per six-gallon bucket of must (yielding roughly 75 ppm of SO2) prior to fermentation; then 1/2 tsp per six-gallon bucket (150 ppm of SO2) at bottling.

              Winemaking equipment is sanitized by spraying with a 1% SO2 (2 tsp potassium metabisulfite per L) solution.

               Beer

              Potassium metabisulfite is sometimes used in the brewing industry to inhibit the growth of wild yeasts, bacteria, and fungi. This is called 'stabilizing'. It is also used to neutralize chloramine that has been added to tap water at the source as a disinfectant. It is used both by homebrewers and commercial brewers alike. It is not used as much for brewing beer, because the wort is almost always boiled, which kills most microorganisms anyway. It can also be added to strike water (the water used to mash the barley) in order to remove chloramines which can cause phenolic off flavors in beer.



              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "bravo" <bravoseychelles@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > thanks guys,
              > i havedone a water test,
              > there are some nasties in there
              > but the norm nasties
              > only wanted to know if those nasties would do like the yeast and explode in numbers when they see all the sex going on next to them
              > lol
              > the chemical contents are ok where metal is concern
              > thanks for the reply
              > if any body has some info about microbes reaction in a ferment
              > do they strive or die
              > would be glad to know
              >
            • bravo
              ok i was reading and they say that there are 2 other ways that this can be done 1st buy a uv light sterilizer which your water pass through before reaching the
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 4 10:13 AM
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                ok
                i was reading and they say that there are 2 other ways that this can be done
                1st buy a uv light sterilizer which your water pass through before reaching the fermentors

                2nd is to use a ozoniser
                i think this might not be the best idea since ozoniser makes the water 03 correct me if im wrong please
                03 will kill even the yeast

                if anybody out there have used it then i welcome yor feedback
                i just want to eliminate the need to rely on importing bags of chemicals every 3 or 6 months
                thanks waldo for the advise
                bossy

                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                >
                > Bravo,
                >
                > You can kill any nasties in both the water and on you mango fruits using
                > potassium or sodium metabisulfite, which is a chemical added to the
                > fermentation a day before the yeast is added. This produces SO2 gas
                > which will kill any bacterial. It is used extensively in the wine
                > industry for sterilizing a fermentation. I believe potassium
                > metabisulfite is the preferred one to use.
                >
                > Add this to your fermentation before you add your yeast and wait 24
                > hours or so for the sulfer dioxide gas to escape before adding yeast.
                >
                > JB. aka Waldo.
                >
                > Wine
                > Potassium metabisulfite is a common wine
                > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine> or must
                > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Must> additive, in which it forms sulfur
                > dioxide gas (SO2). This both prevents most wild microorganisms
                > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microorganism> from growing, and it acts
                > as a potent antioxidant <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antioxidant> ,
                > protecting both the color and delicate flavors of wine.
                >
                > The typical dosage is 1/4 tsp potassium metabisulfite per six-gallon
                > bucket of must (yielding roughly 75 ppm of SO2) prior to fermentation;
                > then 1/2 tsp per six-gallon bucket (150 ppm of SO2) at bottling.
                >
                > Winemaking equipment is sanitized by spraying with a 1% SO2 (2 tsp
                > potassium metabisulfite per L) solution.
                > Beer
                > Potassium metabisulfite is sometimes used in the brewing
                > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewing> industry to inhibit the growth
                > of wild yeasts <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeast> , bacteria
                > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacteria> , and fungi
                > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fungi> . This is called 'stabilizing'. It
                > is also used to neutralize chloramine
                > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloramine> that has been added to tap
                > water at the source as a disinfectant. It is used both by homebrewers
                > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homebrewing> and commercial brewers
                > alike. It is not used as much for brewing beer
                > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer> , because the wort
                > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wort_%28brewing%29> is almost always
                > boiled, which kills most microorganisms anyway. It can also be added to
                > strike water (the water used to mash the barley) in order to remove
                > chloramines which can cause phenolic off flavors in beer.
                >
                >
                > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "bravo" <bravoseychelles@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > thanks guys,
                > > i havedone a water test,
                > > there are some nasties in there
                > > but the norm nasties
                > > only wanted to know if those nasties would do like the yeast and
                > explode in numbers when they see all the sex going on next to them
                > > lol
                > > the chemical contents are ok where metal is concern
                > > thanks for the reply
                > > if any body has some info about microbes reaction in a ferment
                > > do they strive or die
                > > would be glad to know
                > >
                >
              • squirrelliquer
                Please don t beat me up about this as it s a thought and I m a beginner. Please correct me if I am wrong though. Years ago there was no way to test water other
                Message 7 of 10 , Apr 4 12:58 PM
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                  Please don't beat me up about this as it's a thought and I'm a beginner. Please correct me if I am wrong though. Years ago there was no way to test water other than location and plants around a well,creek,or any other type of water source. People used to use untreated water to make their whiskey and find out what water source tasted or worked the best. When they found good water they would stick to it and I think some distilleries and beer makers still do. If you have the time, resources, and patience to make several small batches from several sources, one batch using chemicals, and using the identical recipe to find out what works and tastes best. Almost like starting completely over I know.

                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Bravo,
                  >
                  > You can kill any nasties in both the water and on you mango fruits using
                  > potassium or sodium metabisulfite, which is a chemical added to the
                  > fermentation a day before the yeast is added. This produces SO2 gas
                  > which will kill any bacterial. It is used extensively in the wine
                  > industry for sterilizing a fermentation. I believe potassium
                  > metabisulfite is the preferred one to use.
                  >
                  > Add this to your fermentation before you add your yeast and wait 24
                  > hours or so for the sulfer dioxide gas to escape before adding yeast.
                  >
                  > JB. aka Waldo.
                  >
                  > Wine
                  > Potassium metabisulfite is a common wine
                  > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine> or must
                  > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Must> additive, in which it forms sulfur
                  > dioxide gas (SO2). This both prevents most wild microorganisms
                  > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microorganism> from growing, and it acts
                  > as a potent antioxidant <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antioxidant> ,
                  > protecting both the color and delicate flavors of wine.
                  >
                  > The typical dosage is 1/4 tsp potassium metabisulfite per six-gallon
                  > bucket of must (yielding roughly 75 ppm of SO2) prior to fermentation;
                  > then 1/2 tsp per six-gallon bucket (150 ppm of SO2) at bottling.
                  >
                  > Winemaking equipment is sanitized by spraying with a 1% SO2 (2 tsp
                  > potassium metabisulfite per L) solution.
                  > Beer
                  > Potassium metabisulfite is sometimes used in the brewing
                  > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewing> industry to inhibit the growth
                  > of wild yeasts <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeast> , bacteria
                  > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacteria> , and fungi
                  > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fungi> . This is called 'stabilizing'. It
                  > is also used to neutralize chloramine
                  > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloramine> that has been added to tap
                  > water at the source as a disinfectant. It is used both by homebrewers
                  > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homebrewing> and commercial brewers
                  > alike. It is not used as much for brewing beer
                  > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer> , because the wort
                  > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wort_%28brewing%29> is almost always
                  > boiled, which kills most microorganisms anyway. It can also be added to
                  > strike water (the water used to mash the barley) in order to remove
                  > chloramines which can cause phenolic off flavors in beer.
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "bravo" <bravoseychelles@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > thanks guys,
                  > > i havedone a water test,
                  > > there are some nasties in there
                  > > but the norm nasties
                  > > only wanted to know if those nasties would do like the yeast and
                  > explode in numbers when they see all the sex going on next to them
                  > > lol
                  > > the chemical contents are ok where metal is concern
                  > > thanks for the reply
                  > > if any body has some info about microbes reaction in a ferment
                  > > do they strive or die
                  > > would be glad to know
                  > >
                  >
                • JP
                  Is boiling the raw water, say in your still, in order to kill nasties an option? Or would this remove other desirable features of the water? Uses fuel
                  Message 8 of 10 , Apr 5 6:52 AM
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                    Is boiling the raw water, say in your still, in order to kill "nasties" an option? Or would this remove other desirable features of the water?

                    Uses fuel obviously.

                    I don't know. Just a thought if you are worried about fecals and such...

                    What about distilling the water through your still. Maybe throwing-out the last 20% or something.

                    JP

                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "squirrelliquer" <squirrelliquer@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Please don't beat me up about this as it's a thought and I'm a beginner. Please correct me if I am wrong though. Years ago there was no way to test water other than location and plants around a well,creek,or any other type of water source. People used to use untreated water to make their whiskey and find out what water source tasted or worked the best. When they found good water they would stick to it and I think some distilleries and beer makers still do. If you have the time, resources, and patience to make several small batches from several sources, one batch using chemicals, and using the identical recipe to find out what works and tastes best. Almost like starting completely over I know.
                    >
                    > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Bravo,
                    > >
                    > > You can kill any nasties in both the water and on you mango fruits using
                    > > potassium or sodium metabisulfite, which is a chemical added to the
                    > > fermentation a day before the yeast is added. This produces SO2 gas
                    > > which will kill any bacterial. It is used extensively in the wine
                    > > industry for sterilizing a fermentation. I believe potassium
                    > > metabisulfite is the preferred one to use.
                    > >
                    > > Add this to your fermentation before you add your yeast and wait 24
                    > > hours or so for the sulfer dioxide gas to escape before adding yeast.
                    > >
                    > > JB. aka Waldo.
                    > >
                    > > Wine
                    > > Potassium metabisulfite is a common wine
                    > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine> or must
                    > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Must> additive, in which it forms sulfur
                    > > dioxide gas (SO2). This both prevents most wild microorganisms
                    > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microorganism> from growing, and it acts
                    > > as a potent antioxidant <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antioxidant> ,
                    > > protecting both the color and delicate flavors of wine.
                    > >
                    > > The typical dosage is 1/4 tsp potassium metabisulfite per six-gallon
                    > > bucket of must (yielding roughly 75 ppm of SO2) prior to fermentation;
                    > > then 1/2 tsp per six-gallon bucket (150 ppm of SO2) at bottling.
                    > >
                    > > Winemaking equipment is sanitized by spraying with a 1% SO2 (2 tsp
                    > > potassium metabisulfite per L) solution.
                    > > Beer
                    > > Potassium metabisulfite is sometimes used in the brewing
                    > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewing> industry to inhibit the growth
                    > > of wild yeasts <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeast> , bacteria
                    > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacteria> , and fungi
                    > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fungi> . This is called 'stabilizing'. It
                    > > is also used to neutralize chloramine
                    > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloramine> that has been added to tap
                    > > water at the source as a disinfectant. It is used both by homebrewers
                    > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homebrewing> and commercial brewers
                    > > alike. It is not used as much for brewing beer
                    > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer> , because the wort
                    > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wort_%28brewing%29> is almost always
                    > > boiled, which kills most microorganisms anyway. It can also be added to
                    > > strike water (the water used to mash the barley) in order to remove
                    > > chloramines which can cause phenolic off flavors in beer.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "bravo" <bravoseychelles@>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > thanks guys,
                    > > > i havedone a water test,
                    > > > there are some nasties in there
                    > > > but the norm nasties
                    > > > only wanted to know if those nasties would do like the yeast and
                    > > explode in numbers when they see all the sex going on next to them
                    > > > lol
                    > > > the chemical contents are ok where metal is concern
                    > > > thanks for the reply
                    > > > if any body has some info about microbes reaction in a ferment
                    > > > do they strive or die
                    > > > would be glad to know
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • bruich44
                    ... I m very curious what normal nasties are? Here, normal nasties is arsenic. A $200 basic 5-stage, under the counter RO filter completely removes this, and
                    Message 9 of 10 , Apr 5 7:40 AM
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                      > > > there are some nasties in there
                      > > > but the norm nasties


                      I'm very curious what normal nasties are? Here, normal nasties is arsenic. A $200 basic 5-stage, under the counter RO filter completely removes this, and we live off our RO as our sole drinking source.

                      I'm also curious what source you tested your water from. Unless you're confident you have a clean tap and your water is truly bad, I'd find the cleanest-looking faucet or spigot on your property, then give it a thorough cleaning with bleach and a tooth brush, taking it apart if possible. Put it back together, run some water out of it, then take another sample and re-test.

                      You'd be surprised how many tests fail due to a dirty aerator on a faucet instead of bacteria in the actual source water.

                      And if you do have a dirty well, you may want to do a bleach cleaning of that and your water lines too. Do a web search on how. It will save you money on chemicals in the long run.


                      -b
                    • jamesonbeam1
                      Hi JP, Yes, both boiling and distilling your water will kill any bacteria that may infect your fermentation. Distilled water will produce some of the purest
                      Message 10 of 10 , Apr 6 4:00 AM
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                        Hi JP,

                        Yes, both boiling and distilling your water will kill any bacteria that
                        may infect your fermentation. Distilled water will produce some of the
                        purest water.

                        However, the desirable feature you will lose with both these options is
                        the available oxygen in it that the yeast need to grow their colony
                        during the exponential growth phase. You can overcome this problem by
                        aerating it with a pump and stone for about 6 hours.

                        As Squirrel mentioned, commercial distilleries still use the natural
                        waters around. The limestone waters in Kentucky and the peat flavored
                        waters in Scotland give Bourbons and Scotch some of their character.
                        While they used it in its natural state in the past, now they purify it
                        by reverse osmosis which is a method of filtering the water thru very
                        fine filters that only allow the water molecules to pass through them.

                        This is another option that Bossy might want to consider.

                        JB. aka Waldo.

                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "JP" <joepeer@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Is boiling the raw water, say in your still, in order to kill
                        "nasties" an option? Or would this remove other desirable features of
                        the water?
                        >
                        > Uses fuel obviously.
                        >
                        > I don't know. Just a thought if you are worried about fecals and
                        such...
                        >
                        > What about distilling the water through your still. Maybe
                        throwing-out the last 20% or something.
                        >
                        > JP
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