Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [new_distillers] Re: Aeration

Expand Messages
  • Gavin Flett
    That s outstanding information, thanks for that To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com From: bruichladdich44@gmail.com Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 15:31:56 +0000
    Message 1 of 30 , Mar 26, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      That's outstanding information, thanks for that


      To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
      From: bruichladdich44@...
      Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 15:31:56 +0000
      Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Aeration

       

      > One more thing, how can I guage how many ppm of oxygen I am getting in my wash?

      Using oxygen through a .5 micron ss stone I have been very happy with 60 seconds on a normal beer and 90 seconds on a big beer. If you're shaking/splashing the carboy, you can do it until you get tired.

      One thing I wanted to add was Wyeast did a presentation a few years back at our beer club meeting and when making a big beer (or wash if you will) say 14% and over, they strongly recommended aerating the wort on up to 2 minute oxygen blasts through a stone periodically in the initial stages of fermentation. Their testing found no off-flavors in the final beer so long as all added aeration was stopped by 50% of your expected final gravity. So if you have a 1.120 wort, you could effectively continue aerating it until you reach .070 or so, if you expect it to end around 1.010.


    • jamesonbeam1
      Gavin, Only time will tell for your whiskey (if you can wait that long [;)] )... As far as testing for oxygen in your fermentation, all aquarium stores for
      Message 2 of 30 , Mar 27, 2011
      • 0 Attachment

        Gavin,

        Only time will tell for your whiskey (if you can wait that long ;))...

        As far as testing for oxygen in your fermentation, all aquarium stores for fish have O2 testing kits that work just like a pH testing kit where you add chemicals and see what the color is,

        JB. aka Waldo.


        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > So it may be as I had originally suspected, my wash has simply fermented out quicker than expected..
        > After reading that I would have say woops. It seems I am again misinformed as to the aerobic and anaerobic phases of the fermentation. In my attempt at making sure the wash had sufficient aeration (plus thinking that yeast growth can occur at least through the 48 hr period) I syphoned it from carboy to carboy twice (one each day) and making sure it had plenty of splash to try and get the oxygen in the mix plus mixing it to get the mash cap down etc, etc..... The yeast I am using is I think W-Yeast and it's a whiskey yeast from my local brew shop and i have experimented with varying temperatures with so far less than pleasing results. I am making my way up to an average temperature of 29C as i had begun in the low 20'sC
        > However the oldest batch I have aging right now is about 9 months. I have grown to like drinking 18 and 21 year scotch, so perhaps I have set the bar a bit high, however my goal is still to at least match those. The trouble I am having is, how do I know my product now will turn out delicious in 10, 12, 15 18 years. If anyone can let me know that I will be grategully indebted.
        > One more thing, how can I guage how many ppm of oxygen I am getting in my wash?

      • Gavin Flett
        Once again, thanks for the info! To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com From: jamesonbeam1@yahoo.com Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 13:10:22 +0000 Subject:
        Message 3 of 30 , Mar 27, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          Once again, thanks for the info!


          To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
          From: jamesonbeam1@...
          Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 13:10:22 +0000
          Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Aeration

           

          Gavin,
          Only time will tell for your whiskey (if you can wait that long ;))...
          As far as testing for oxygen in your fermentation, all aquarium stores for fish have O2 testing kits that work just like a pH testing kit where you add chemicals and see what the color is,
          JB. aka Waldo.

          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gavin Flett <gavin_flett@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > So it may be as I had originally suspected, my wash has simply fermented out quicker than expected..
          > After reading that I would have say woops. It seems I am again misinformed as to the aerobic and anaerobic phases of the fermentation. In my attempt at making sure the wash had sufficient aeration (plus thinking that yeast growth can occur at least through the 48 hr period) I syphoned it from carboy to carboy twice (one each day) and making sure it had plenty of splash to try and get the oxygen in the mix plus mixing it to get the mash cap down etc, etc..... The yeast I am using is I think W-Yeast and it's a whiskey yeast from my local brew shop and i have experimented with varying temperatures with so far less than pleasing results. I am making my way up to an average temperature of 29C as i had begun in the low 20'sC
          > However the oldest batch I have aging right now is about 9 months. I have grown to like drinking 18 and 21 year scotch, so perhaps I have set the bar a bit high, however my goal is still to at least match those. The trouble I am having is, how do I know my product now will turn out delicious in 10, 12, 15 18 years. If anyone can let me know that I will be grategully indebted.
          > One more thing, how can I guage how many ppm of oxygen I am getting in my wash?


        • brzdistiller
          I ve seen a lot of people advising the use of an aquarium pump and stone, but was wondering how one goes about cleaning that porous stone? I ve been using a
          Message 4 of 30 , Apr 6 7:44 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            I've seen a lot of people advising the use of an aquarium pump and stone, but was wondering how one goes about cleaning that porous stone?

            I've been using a blender or hand mixer to aerate my starter for a few minutes before pitching the yeast. After the yeast is introduced, I let it work for 24 hours in this mixture of sugar water and tomato paste than add it to the mash.

            Is this enough?
          • Harry
            ... Don t use an ordinary stone. They re glued together. They will fall apart with exposure to alcohol. You need one of these...
            Message 5 of 30 , Apr 6 8:25 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "brzdistiller" <brzdistiller@...> wrote:
              >
              > I've seen a lot of people advising the use of an aquarium pump and stone, but was wondering how one goes about cleaning that porous stone?


              Don't use an ordinary stone. They're glued together. They will fall apart with exposure to alcohol. You need one of these...
              http://www.homebrewing.com/equipment/stainless-steel-air-stone.php
              >
              > I've been using a blender or hand mixer to aerate my starter for a few minutes before pitching the yeast. After the yeast is introduced, I let it work for 24 hours in this mixture of sugar water and tomato paste than add it to the mash.
              >
              > Is this enough?
              >

              I use 100gm yeast granulated to start a 60 litre ferment. I take a 2 litre jug, add 300-400 ml of 40C water, and 100ml of my prepared wort. Then add the yeast, dissolve it (use your hand to squeeze it into the liquid). Let it set for about 10 minutes and it will fill the 2-litre jug with froth. This is what I pitch into the wort. Then bag it or airlock it, your choice.

              The rationale is to re-hydrate the dried granulated yeast using a weak mixture of the wort environment it is to work in (too strong will shock the yeast), and have it warm enough to rapidly absorb the moisture and activate.

              It never fails with DGY, but don't do it with turbos. If using turbos, always follow maker's instructions.


              Slainte!
              regards Harry
            • Alli
              In this business more than many the devil is in the details. When areating for 4-6 hours after the yeast has been pitched, how does one keep the air borne
              Message 6 of 30 , Aug 30, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                In this business more than many the devil is in the details. When areating for 4-6 hours after the yeast has been pitched, how does one keep the air borne wild yeast out of the mash? I thought of putting the lid on the fermentor and running the air hose through the hole for the airlock, but that might restrict the air flow in/out of the vessel. Just wordering how other folks do this. Thanks.
                Alli
              • Bob Glicksman
                In winemaking, the wort is sulfated so that sulpher dioxide gas is released and kills the wild yeast, bacteria, and other undersireable organisms. Wine yeast
                Message 7 of 30 , Aug 30, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  In winemaking, the wort is sulfated so that sulpher dioxide gas is released and kills the wild yeast, bacteria, and other undersireable organisms.  Wine yeast is bred to tolerate higher levels of sulfates than do wild varieties.  Use sodium bisulfate (campden tablets) or potassium metabisulfate power.  These are availabe in any wine/beermaking store.



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Alli <allibugger@...>
                  To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tue, Aug 30, 2011 9:05 am
                  Subject: [new_distillers] Aeration

                   
                  In this business more than many the devil is in the details. When areating for 4-6 hours after the yeast has been pitched, how does one keep the air borne wild yeast out of the mash? I thought of putting the lid on the fermentor and running the air hose through the hole for the airlock, but that might restrict the air flow in/out of the vessel. Just wordering how other folks do this. Thanks.
                  Alli

                • Ric Cunningham
                  When aerating you are shooting for a fast start to the Yeast fermentation to out compete other organisms. This should not be an issue if using a large healthy
                  Message 8 of 30 , Aug 30, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    When aerating you are shooting for a fast start to the Yeast fermentation to out compete other organisms. This should not be an issue if using a large healthy active yeast pitch. No Sulfate required. traditionally a grain mash is allowed to ferment with some souring agent (sour mash) but a fast yeast start will minimize that. No worries. 

                    On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 10:44 AM, Bob Glicksman <bobg542492@...> wrote:
                     

                    In winemaking, the wort is sulfated so that sulpher dioxide gas is released and kills the wild yeast, bacteria, and other undersireable organisms.  Wine yeast is bred to tolerate higher levels of sulfates than do wild varieties.  Use sodium bisulfate (campden tablets) or potassium metabisulfate power.  These are availabe in any wine/beermaking store.





                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Alli <allibugger@...>
                    To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tue, Aug 30, 2011 9:05 am
                    Subject: [new_distillers] Aeration

                     
                    In this business more than many the devil is in the details. When areating for 4-6 hours after the yeast has been pitched, how does one keep the air borne wild yeast out of the mash? I thought of putting the lid on the fermentor and running the air hose through the hole for the airlock, but that might restrict the air flow in/out of the vessel. Just wordering how other folks do this. Thanks.
                    Alli




                    --
                    If you can make macaroni and cheese from a box, you can make a great beer.
                  • Derek Hamlet
                    Small Point but they are metabisulfites, not metabisulphates. Two different animals. Also, (and this is just me). I sulfite my wines immediately after
                    Message 9 of 30 , Aug 30, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Small Point but they are metabisulfites, not metabisulphates. Two
                      different animals.
                      Also, (and this is just me). I sulfite my wines immediately after
                      crushing to kill any wild yeasts. But I wait 24 hours before
                      pitching my good yeast.
                      I may be all wrong but when distilling I prepare my sulfited wort,
                      aerate the daylights out of it for 8 hours before pitching my
                      yeast. The aeration will add the oxygen and also disperses the
                      metabi (I aim for 25ppm) so it is pretty much gone into the air when
                      I pitch my yeast. For the most part I also use killer yeasts that
                      are strong enough to kill any wild (usually weaker) yeasts.
                      At 09:58 AM 8/30/2011, you wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >When aerating you are shooting for a fast start to the Yeast
                      >fermentation to out compete other organisms. This should not be an
                      >issue if using a large healthy active yeast pitch. No Sulfate
                      >required. traditionally a grain mash is allowed to ferment with some
                      >souring agent (sour mash) but a fast yeast start will minimize that.
                      >No worries.

                      Derek
                      I've traveled a long way
                      And some of the roads weren't paved
                    • JD
                      cover it with a wet towel. putt the airhose between the lid and tun. greets
                      Message 10 of 30 , Aug 30, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        cover it with a wet towel.
                        putt the airhose between the lid and tun.

                        greets

                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Alli" <allibugger@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > In this business more than many the devil is in the details. When areating for 4-6 hours after the yeast has been pitched, how does one keep the air borne wild yeast out of the mash? I thought of putting the lid on the fermentor and running the air hose through the hole for the airlock, but that might restrict the air flow in/out of the vessel. Just wordering how other folks do this. Thanks.
                        > Alli
                        >
                      • JerryM
                        I aeration necessary if you are pitching trub? Thanks.
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jan 19, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I aeration necessary if you are pitching trub? Thanks.
                        • Fredrick Lee
                          Aeration is always needed. The yeast cells will consume oxygen and end up cloning themselves. Sometime shortly after the oxygen runs out, they start fuckin,
                          Message 12 of 30 , Jan 19, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Aeration is always needed. The yeast cells will consume oxygen and end up cloning themselves. Sometime shortly after the oxygen runs out, they start fuckin, which leads to mutations. The more mutation, the less control you have, the less chance you'll make that one amazing recipe again.  I would use oxygenated yeast no more than 11 generations. 

                            On Jan 19, 2013, at 3:28 PM, "JerryM" <jkmccull@...> wrote:

                             

                            I aeration necessary if you are pitching trub? Thanks.

                          • o1bigtenor
                            ... Why 11? D
                            Message 13 of 30 , Jan 19, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...> wrote:


                              Aeration is always needed. The yeast cells will consume oxygen and end up cloning themselves. Sometime shortly after the oxygen runs out, they start fuckin, which leads to mutations. The more mutation, the less control you have, the less chance you'll make that one amazing recipe again.  I would use oxygenated yeast no more than 11 generations. 


                              Why 11?                       D
                            • RLB
                              Most of my reading suggests no more than 10 generations.  They hint that yeast burns out after 10 generation.  It s still there, but it s weaker against wild
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jan 19, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Most of my reading suggests no more than 10 generations.  They hint that yeast burns out after 10 generation.  It's still there, but it's weaker against wild yeast and bacteria.

                                Robert



                                From: o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@...>
                                To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2013 11:21 PM
                                Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Aeration

                                 


                                On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...> wrote:


                                Aeration is always needed. The yeast cells will consume oxygen and end up cloning themselves. Sometime shortly after the oxygen runs out, they start fuckin, which leads to mutations. The more mutation, the less control you have, the less chance you'll make that one amazing recipe again.  I would use oxygenated yeast no more than 11 generations. 


                                Why 11?                       D


                              • Fredrick Lee
                                Even with aeration, the main fermentation phase causes enough mutations that after the 11th generation, flavor traits are significantly altered. After 16
                                Message 15 of 30 , Jan 20, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Even with aeration, the main fermentation phase causes enough mutations that after the 11th generation, flavor traits are significantly altered. After 16 generations, the yeast cells are nearly indistinguishable from the original.  That said, there are breweries that have thousands of generations on their strains, the yeast can adapt to a system and become a "house strain." Usually attenuation suffers, or lag time or some trade off occurs from the original strain, but if it works for you, then go for it. Just don't expect consistent results. 


                                  On Jan 19, 2013, at 11:21 PM, o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@...> wrote:

                                   



                                  On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...> wrote:


                                  Aeration is always needed. The yeast cells will consume oxygen and end up cloning themselves. Sometime shortly after the oxygen runs out, they start fuckin, which leads to mutations. The more mutation, the less control you have, the less chance you'll make that one amazing recipe again.  I would use oxygenated yeast no more than 11 generations. 


                                  Why 11?                       D

                                • o1bigtenor
                                  ... 11 things have changed too much. Then you say that after 16 generations there is no change. Sorry only one of the foregoing can be true. D
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Jan 20, 2013
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 7:06 AM, Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...> wrote:


                                    Even with aeration, the main fermentation phase causes enough mutations that after the 11th generation, flavor traits are significantly altered. After 16 generations, the yeast cells are nearly indistinguishable from the original.  That said, there are breweries that have thousands of generations on their strains, the yeast can adapt to a system and become a "house strain." Usually attenuation suffers, or lag time or some trade off occurs from the original strain, but if it works for you, then go for it. Just don't expect consistent results.

                                    Sorry - - I asked why 11 generations and you responded its because after 11 things have changed too much. Then you say that after 16 generations there is no change. Sorry only one of the foregoing can be true.                  D

                                  • Fredrick Lee
                                    No after 16 it s changed so much that the strains are completely different you can barely even tell they were related without mitochondrial DNA testing.
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Jan 20, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      No after 16 it's changed so much that the strains are completely different you can barely even tell they were related without mitochondrial DNA testing. 




                                      On Jan 20, 2013, at 8:12 AM, o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@...> wrote:

                                       



                                      On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 7:06 AM, Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...> wrote:


                                      Even with aeration, the main fermentation phase causes enough mutations that after the 11th generation, flavor traits are significantly altered. After 16 generations, the yeast cells are nearly indistinguishable from the original.  That said, there are breweries that have thousands of generations on their strains, the yeast can adapt to a system and become a "house strain." Usually attenuation suffers, or lag time or some trade off occurs from the original strain, but if it works for you, then go for it. Just don't expect consistent results.

                                      Sorry - - I asked why 11 generations and you responded its because after 11 things have changed too much. Then you say that after 16 generations there is no change. Sorry only one of the foregoing can be true.                  D

                                    • o1bigtenor
                                      ... So how do the big breweries get consistent results with high replication numbers yeasts? D
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Jan 20, 2013
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 7:14 AM, Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...> wrote:


                                        No after 16 it's changed so much that the strains are completely different you can barely even tell they were related without mitochondrial DNA testing.

                                        Thank you for clarifying!

                                        So how do the big breweries get consistent results with high replication numbers yeasts?                            D

                                      • Fredrick Lee
                                        ... 1.) House strains become accustomed to their environment and a certain flavor profile develops, but the yeast strains will continue to mutate until the
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Jan 20, 2013
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          So how do the big breweries get consistent results with high replication numbers yeasts?                            D 

                                          1.) House strains become accustomed to their environment and a certain flavor "profile" develops, but the yeast strains will continue to mutate until the most beneficial mutations are established.  Breweries with house strains must have consistent processes and ingredients to ensure the strain remains consistent as possible.

                                          2.) Large breweries (and even small ones like ours) maintain a yeast lab where they keep a library of pure cultures of the strains (in sealed test tubes called slants). When the 11th batch goes out the door on the production line, the yeast lab prepares another pure strain from a slant on a Petri dish or culture flask, and subsequently grow it up until its big enough to pitch. In our case we grow it up to about 10 gallons, and pitch it into ~300 gallons.  What comes off that 300 gallon tank is used about 10 more times. Myself and our brewmaster (and a few others) can start noticing a very subtle change in the flavor around generations 5-6. The gas chromatograph in our lab also shows these differences, but 99% of people will not be able to tell, or if they can tell, it's not too much of a difference that they'll think the beer is defective. 

                                          3.) Somewhere during the culturing phase, we'll select the colony from a petri dish and make a dozen or so new slants.  People also sell and trade slants.  This way, we can have access to hundreds of strains from all over the world.  



                                          On Jan 20, 2013, at 9:38 AM, o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@...> wrote:

                                           



                                          On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 7:14 AM, Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...> wrote:


                                          No after 16 it's changed so much that the strains are completely different you can barely even tell they were related without mitochondrial DNA testing.

                                          Thank you for clarifying!

                                          So how do the big breweries get consistent results with high replication numbers yeasts?                            D

                                        • RLB
                                          Most people don t raise their own yeast, so they don t worry about aeration.  At $0.99 per a 5g pack of yeast almost makes it not worth the effort of raising
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Jan 20, 2013
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Most people don't raise their own yeast, so they don't worry about aeration.  At $0.99 per a 5g pack of yeast almost makes it not worth the effort of raising your own yeast.

                                            Robert



                                            From: Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...>
                                            To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 8:14 AM
                                            Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Aeration

                                             
                                            No after 16 it's changed so much that the strains are completely different you can barely even tell they were related without mitochondrial DNA testing. 




                                            On Jan 20, 2013, at 8:12 AM, o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@...> wrote:

                                             


                                            On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 7:06 AM, Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...> wrote:


                                            Even with aeration, the main fermentation phase causes enough mutations that after the 11th generation, flavor traits are significantly altered. After 16 generations, the yeast cells are nearly indistinguishable from the original.  That said, there are breweries that have thousands of generations on their strains, the yeast can adapt to a system and become a "house strain." Usually attenuation suffers, or lag time or some trade off occurs from the original strain, but if it works for you, then go for it. Just don't expect consistent results.

                                            Sorry - - I asked why 11 generations and you responded its because after 11 things have changed too much. Then you say that after 16 generations there is no change. Sorry only one of the foregoing can be true.                  D



                                          • ballard_bootlegger
                                            In short: No. :-)
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Jan 23, 2013
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              In short: No. :-)

                                              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gavinflett" wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Does anyone think it's possible to aerate the wash too much to the point where it kills the ferment?
                                              >
                                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.