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Backset

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  • gavinflett
    I have decided to try using backset for mashing. Can anyone tell me what I am doing wrong when I am using backset for my mash? Almost immediately after I
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 14 8:54 PM
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      I have decided to try using backset for mashing. Can anyone tell me what I am doing wrong when I am using backset for my mash? Almost immediately after I distill I use the already heated backset for mashing. I have done this twice and twice I have ended up with what I can only refer to as uncured cement and very little if any mash draining.

      Do I need to mill the grain to a coarser grind when using backset. I did notice that backset is consideraby stickier and thicker than water. Plus when I let it settle I also notice that there is still solids in the backset that I could not remove from the mash.

      Someone with backset experience please enlighten me, waiting 16 hrs for a mash to sparge should not be happening.
    • jamesonbeam1
      Never had that problem. How are you sparging your mash? If its that thick, im surprised your not burning it. Try using a straining bag - 5 gallon paint
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 15 5:26 AM
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        Never had that problem. How are you sparging your mash? If its that
        thick, im surprised your not burning it. Try using a straining bag - 5
        gallon paint strainers work well. I also let the backset sit for a few
        days to help separate any solids in it.

        JB. aka Waldo.

        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gavinflett" <gavin_flett@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > I have decided to try using backset for mashing. Can anyone tell me
        what I am doing wrong when I am using backset for my mash? Almost
        immediately after I distill I use the already heated backset for
        mashing. I have done this twice and twice I have ended up with what I
        can only refer to as uncured cement and very little if any mash
        draining.
        >
        > Do I need to mill the grain to a coarser grind when using backset. I
        did notice that backset is consideraby stickier and thicker than water.
        Plus when I let it settle I also notice that there is still solids in
        the backset that I could not remove from the mash.
        >
        > Someone with backset experience please enlighten me, waiting 16 hrs
        for a mash to sparge should not be happening.
        >
      • Jerry McCullough
        Does backset have a shelf life? ... From: jamesonbeam1 Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Backset To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com Date:
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 15 6:51 AM
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          Does backset have a shelf life?

          --- On Tue, 3/15/11, jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:

          From: jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@...>
          Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Backset
          To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Tuesday, March 15, 2011, 7:26 AM

           
          Never had that problem. How are you sparging your mash? If its that
          thick, im surprised your not burning it. Try using a straining bag - 5
          gallon paint strainers work well. I also let the backset sit for a few
          days to help separate any solids in it.

          JB. aka Waldo.

          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gavinflett" <gavin_flett@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > I have decided to try using backset for mashing. Can anyone tell me
          what I am doing wrong when I am using backset for my mash? Almost
          immediately after I distill I use the already heated backset for
          mashing. I have done this twice and twice I have ended up with what I
          can only refer to as uncured cement and very little if any mash
          draining.
          >
          > Do I need to mill the grain to a coarser grind when using backset. I
          did notice that backset is consideraby stickier and thicker than water.
          Plus when I let it settle I also notice that there is still solids in
          the backset that I could not remove from the mash.
          >
          > Someone with backset experience please enlighten me, waiting 16 hrs
          for a mash to sparge should not be happening.
          >


        • jamesonbeam1
          Yes, If left out, it will get infected with bacteria, which is desirable in making aged dunder for rum, but not for making a sour mash for whiskey. After it
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 15 6:55 AM
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            Yes,

            If left out, it will get infected with bacteria, which is desirable in
            making aged dunder for rum, but not for making a sour mash for whiskey.
            After it cools from distillation, I will refrigerate it or if not using
            for a while, will even freeze it to keep it clean.

            JB. aka Waldo.


            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Jerry McCullough <jkmccull@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Does backset have a shelf life?
          • gavinflett
            Not letting it settle and using it right away might be the issue, as I said this stuff ends up so thick that the flour just sits as a layer of sediment on top
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 16 9:21 AM
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              Not letting it settle and using it right away might be the issue, as I said this stuff ends up so thick that the flour just sits as a layer of sediment on top of the grain bed. I never had that issue when using just water. I'll try letting it settle and see how that goes;.

              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
              >
              > Never had that problem. How are you sparging your mash? If its that
              > thick, im surprised your not burning it. Try using a straining bag - 5
              > gallon paint strainers work well. I also let the backset sit for a few
              > days to help separate any solids in it.
              >
              > JB. aka Waldo.
              >
              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gavinflett" <gavin_flett@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > I have decided to try using backset for mashing. Can anyone tell me
              > what I am doing wrong when I am using backset for my mash? Almost
              > immediately after I distill I use the already heated backset for
              > mashing. I have done this twice and twice I have ended up with what I
              > can only refer to as uncured cement and very little if any mash
              > draining.
              > >
              > > Do I need to mill the grain to a coarser grind when using backset. I
              > did notice that backset is consideraby stickier and thicker than water.
              > Plus when I let it settle I also notice that there is still solids in
              > the backset that I could not remove from the mash.
              > >
              > > Someone with backset experience please enlighten me, waiting 16 hrs
              > for a mash to sparge should not be happening.
              > >
              >
            • olrgernr
              Was there ever an answer to does backset have a shelf life? Can it be stored (sealed, refrigerated etc) for any amount of time? If I can t keep mash going
              Message 6 of 16 , Oct 6, 2011
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                Was there ever an answer to "does backset have a shelf life? Can it be stored (sealed, refrigerated etc) for any amount of time? If I can't keep mash going continuously do i always have to do 2 runs back to back or can i wait a week or two between runs?

                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Jerry McCullough <jkmccull@...> wrote:
                >
                > Does backset have a shelf life?
                >
                > --- On Tue, 3/15/11, jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > From: jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@...>
                > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Backset
                > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Tuesday, March 15, 2011, 7:26 AM
                >
                >
                >  
                >
                >
                >
                > Never had that problem. How are you sparging your mash? If its that
                > thick, im surprised your not burning it. Try using a straining bag - 5
                > gallon paint strainers work well. I also let the backset sit for a few
                > days to help separate any solids in it.
                >
                > JB. aka Waldo.
                >
                > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gavinflett" <gavin_flett@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > I have decided to try using backset for mashing. Can anyone tell me
                > what I am doing wrong when I am using backset for my mash? Almost
                > immediately after I distill I use the already heated backset for
                > mashing. I have done this twice and twice I have ended up with what I
                > can only refer to as uncured cement and very little if any mash
                > draining.
                > >
                > > Do I need to mill the grain to a coarser grind when using backset. I
                > did notice that backset is consideraby stickier and thicker than water.
                > Plus when I let it settle I also notice that there is still solids in
                > the backset that I could not remove from the mash.
                > >
                > > Someone with backset experience please enlighten me, waiting 16 hrs
                > for a mash to sparge should not be happening.
                > >
                >
              • Gavin Flett
                I can answer the below problem of having drainage issues when using backset. i did several experiments using backset and one thing i noticed was that the
                Message 7 of 16 , Oct 6, 2011
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                  I can answer the below problem of having drainage issues when using backset. i did several experiments using backset and one thing i noticed was that the stickiness of backset requires a coarser grind for sure. As well I was unable to get an SG of higher than 1.062 when using 40% or greater backset (no matter what my grain to water ratio was). So use less than 40% backset when mashing. What you can do to get the flow of the backset going, there will be a layer of what is essentially flour that will have settled over top of your grain bed after sometime. This occures due to the slow drainage. What I found worked was simply opening up a small (about a 3 inch or so) hole on the opposite end of your drain valve on the grain bed. this allows the backset to continue flowing through the grain bed from the back to the front so it still filters any remaining flour and comes out clean.

                  I am not positive if backset (basically the tailings coming from a whiskey distillation) has a shelf life, but dunder (tailings coming from a rum distillation) does. It gets what I believe is called lacto bactillius on the top of it. And I think it's a form of fungus, i did get it on one of my Whiskey fermentations and it made the alcohol taste awfull. 

                  I would brew one batch of whiskey a week, and I did this for months. So I had no trouble letting the backset sit (with particles and everything) for the one week between brews.

                  Hope all of that helps, that's info coming from hours upon hours and hours of hard earned knowledge so I would like my mistakes to not be repeated by someone else if i can help it


                  To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  From: olrgernr@...
                  Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 02:37:44 +0000
                  Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Backset

                   
                  Was there ever an answer to "does backset have a shelf life? Can it be stored (sealed, refrigerated etc) for any amount of time? If I can't keep mash going continuously do i always have to do 2 runs back to back or can i wait a week or two between runs?

                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Jerry McCullough <jkmccull@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Does backset have a shelf life?
                  >
                  > --- On Tue, 3/15/11, jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > From: jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@...>
                  > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Backset
                  > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Tuesday, March 15, 2011, 7:26 AM
                  >
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Never had that problem. How are you sparging your mash? If its that
                  > thick, im surprised your not burning it. Try using a straining bag - 5
                  > gallon paint strainers work well. I also let the backset sit for a few
                  > days to help separate any solids in it.
                  >
                  > JB. aka Waldo.
                  >
                  > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gavinflett" <gavin_flett@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I have decided to try using backset for mashing. Can anyone tell me
                  > what I am doing wrong when I am using backset for my mash? Almost
                  > immediately after I distill I use the already heated backset for
                  > mashing. I have done this twice and twice I have ended up with what I
                  > can only refer to as uncured cement and very little if any mash
                  > draining.
                  > >
                  > > Do I need to mill the grain to a coarser grind when using backset. I
                  > did notice that backset is consideraby stickier and thicker than water.
                  > Plus when I let it settle I also notice that there is still solids in
                  > the backset that I could not remove from the mash.
                  > >
                  > > Someone with backset experience please enlighten me, waiting 16 hrs
                  > for a mash to sparge should not be happening.
                  > >
                  >


                • Jerry McCullough
                  below is a copy of the reply:  Re: Backset Yes, If left out, it will get infected with bacteria, which is desirable in making aged dunder for rum, but not for
                  Message 8 of 16 , Oct 7, 2011
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                    below is a copy of the reply:
                     
                    Re: Backset


                    Yes,

                    If left out, it will get infected with bacteria, which is desirable in
                    making aged dunder for rum, but not for making a sour mash for whiskey.
                    After it cools from distillation, I will refrigerate it or if not using
                    for a while, will even freeze it to keep it clean.

                    JB. aka Waldo.


                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Jerry McCullough <jkmccull@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Does backset
                    have a shelf life?



                    From: olrgernr <olrgernr@...>
                    To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2011 9:37 PM
                    Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Backset

                     
                    Was there ever an answer to "does backset have a shelf life? Can it be stored (sealed, refrigerated etc) for any amount of time? If I can't keep mash going continuously do i always have to do 2 runs back to back or can i wait a week or two between runs?

                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Jerry McCullough <jkmccull@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Does backset have a shelf life?
                    >
                    > --- On Tue, 3/15/11, jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > From: jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@...>
                    > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Backset
                    > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Tuesday, March 15, 2011, 7:26 AM
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Never had that problem. How are you sparging your mash? If its that
                    > thick, im surprised your not burning it. Try using a straining bag - 5
                    > gallon paint strainers work well. I also let the backset sit for a few
                    > days to help separate any solids in it.
                    >
                    > JB. aka Waldo.
                    >
                    > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gavinflett" <gavin_flett@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I have decided to try using backset for mashing. Can anyone tell me
                    > what I am doing wrong when I am using backset for my mash? Almost
                    > immediately after I distill I use the already heated backset for
                    > mashing. I have done this twice and twice I have ended up with what I
                    > can only refer to as uncured cement and very little if any mash
                    > draining.
                    > >
                    > > Do I need to mill the grain to a coarser grind when using backset. I
                    > did notice that backset is consideraby stickier and thicker than water.
                    > Plus when I let it settle I also notice that there is still solids in
                    > the backset that I could not remove from the mash.
                    > >
                    > > Someone with backset experience please enlighten me, waiting 16 hrs
                    > for a mash to sparge should not be happening.
                    > >
                    >



                  • olrgernr
                    thanks thought there had to be a way to spread out the runs. I am working on may first pot and hope to be able to try it out in a couple of weeks. I think I
                    Message 9 of 16 , Oct 7, 2011
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                      thanks
                      thought there had to be a way to spread out the runs. I am working on may first pot and hope to be able to try it out in a couple of weeks. I think I am starting to get a clear picture of the process
                      rnr

                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Jerry McCullough <jkmccull@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > below is a copy of the reply:
                      >  Re: Backset
                      >
                      >
                      > Yes,
                      >
                      > If left out, it will get
                      > infected with bacteria, which is desirable in
                      > making aged dunder for rum, but
                      > not for making a sour mash for whiskey.
                      > After it cools from distillation, I
                      > will refrigerate it or if not using
                      > for a while, will even freeze it to keep
                      > it clean.
                      >
                      > JB. aka Waldo.
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com,
                      > Jerry McCullough <jkmccull@>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Does backset
                      > have a shelf life?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: olrgernr <olrgernr@...>
                      > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2011 9:37 PM
                      > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Backset
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      > Was there ever an answer to "does backset have a shelf life? Can it be stored (sealed, refrigerated etc) for any amount of time? If I can't keep mash going continuously do i always have to do 2 runs back to back or can i wait a week or two between runs?
                      >
                      > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Jerry McCullough <jkmccull@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Does backset have a shelf life?
                      > >
                      > > --- On Tue, 3/15/11, jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > From: jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@>
                      > > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Backset
                      > > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Date: Tuesday, March 15, 2011, 7:26 AM
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >  
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Never had that problem. How are you sparging your mash? If its that
                      > > thick, im surprised your not burning it. Try using a straining bag - 5
                      > > gallon paint strainers work well. I also let the backset sit for a few
                      > > days to help separate any solids in it.
                      > >
                      > > JB. aka Waldo.
                      > >
                      > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gavinflett" <gavin_flett@>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > I have decided to try using backset for mashing. Can anyone tell me
                      > > what I am doing wrong when I am using backset for my mash? Almost
                      > > immediately after I distill I use the already heated backset for
                      > > mashing. I have done this twice and twice I have ended up with what I
                      > > can only refer to as uncured cement and very little if any mash
                      > > draining.
                      > > >
                      > > > Do I need to mill the grain to a coarser grind when using backset. I
                      > > did notice that backset is consideraby stickier and thicker than water.
                      > > Plus when I let it settle I also notice that there is still solids in
                      > > the backset that I could not remove from the mash.
                      > > >
                      > > > Someone with backset experience please enlighten me, waiting 16 hrs
                      > > for a mash to sparge should not be happening.
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • jkmccull
                      I am in the process of distilling blackberry brandy. I used about 8 gallons of concentrated blackberry juice, two gallons of water, enough sugar to have a
                      Message 10 of 16 , Dec 26, 2014
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                        I am in the process of distilling blackberry brandy. I used about 8 gallons of concentrated blackberry juice, two gallons of water, enough sugar to have a potential alcohol content of 12% and pitched EC-1118 yeast. I also had a bag of about 6 pounds of crushed berries in the must. I forgot to add yeast nutrients and a few other things. Call it a senior moment. I have fermented blackberry juice, water and sugar and I am sad to say that I ended up with a stuck ferment. Nothing I did would restart the ferment so I decided to go ahead and distill the must.  The final SG indicates that I still had about 5%  potential alcohol. Hindsight says that maybe I should have diluted the blackberry juice with more water and fermented in two batches instead of one.  


                        Anyhow I was thinking that after I distill the must, I could adjust the backset ph back to 5.5 or so, add more sugar, water, the trub from the current batch, yeast nutrients and do a second ferment. My logic is that the blackberry juice is so concentrated and I still have the bag of crushed blackberries that there should be plenty of congers left to make a second batch. This time I would not make the mistake of leaving out the nutrients and other items to finish the ferment.


                        Is there anything wrong with this plan? 

                      • Paulo Jurza
                        I have distilled this rest once and the final product ended up with cardboard-wet-dog smell. My intent was to save some alcohol of the rest, but I didnt find
                        Message 11 of 16 , Dec 26, 2014
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                          I have distilled this rest once and the final product ended up with cardboard-wet-dog smell. My intent was to save some alcohol of the rest, but I didnt find any advantage on it.

                          Jurza
                          Brasil

                          Em 26/12/2014 12:59, "jkmccull@... [new_distillers]" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com> escreveu:
                           

                          I am in the process of distilling blackberry brandy. I used about 8 gallons of concentrated blackberry juice, two gallons of water, enough sugar to have a potential alcohol content of 12% and pitched EC-1118 yeast. I also had a bag of about 6 pounds of crushed berries in the must. I forgot to add yeast nutrients and a few other things. Call it a senior moment. I have fermented blackberry juice, water and sugar and I am sad to say that I ended up with a stuck ferment. Nothing I did would restart the ferment so I decided to go ahead and distill the must.  The final SG indicates that I still had about 5%  potential alcohol. Hindsight says that maybe I should have diluted the blackberry juice with more water and fermented in two batches instead of one.  


                          Anyhow I was thinking that after I distill the must, I could adjust the backset ph back to 5.5 or so, add more sugar, water, the trub from the current batch, yeast nutrients and do a second ferment. My logic is that the blackberry juice is so concentrated and I still have the bag of crushed blackberries that there should be plenty of congers left to make a second batch. This time I would not make the mistake of leaving out the nutrients and other items to finish the ferment.


                          Is there anything wrong with this plan? 

                        • Jim Graves
                          I too have had problems with stuck fermentation while using 1118 yeast.  Sooooo, I quit using the 1118 and started using regular old bakers yeast and happy to
                          Message 12 of 16 , Dec 26, 2014
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                            I too have had problems with stuck fermentation while using 1118 yeast.  Sooooo, I quit using the 1118 and started using regular old bakers yeast and happy to say, I have not had another problem.  I do a lot of grapes, crush and then put the crush into a vat, add sugar, water yeast and neutrients and off it goes!!!!  Makes great grappa!


                            On Friday, December 26, 2014 1:09 PM, "Paulo Jurza paulo.jurza@... [new_distillers]" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


                             
                            I have distilled this rest once and the final product ended up with cardboard-wet-dog smell. My intent was to save some alcohol of the rest, but I didnt find any advantage on it.
                            Jurza
                            Brasil
                            Em 26/12/2014 12:59, "jkmccull@... [new_distillers]" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com> escreveu:
                             
                            I am in the process of distilling blackberry brandy. I used about 8 gallons of concentrated blackberry juice, two gallons of water, enough sugar to have a potential alcohol content of 12% and pitched EC-1118 yeast. I also had a bag of about 6 pounds of crushed berries in the must. I forgot to add yeast nutrients and a few other things. Call it a senior moment. I have fermented blackberry juice, water and sugar and I am sad to say that I ended up with a stuck ferment. Nothing I did would restart the ferment so I decided to go ahead and distill the must.  The final SG indicates that I still had about 5%  potential alcohol. Hindsight says that maybe I should have diluted the blackberry juice with more water and fermented in two batches instead of one.  

                            Anyhow I was thinking that after I distill the must, I could adjust the backset ph back to 5.5 or so, add more sugar, water, the trub from the current batch, yeast nutrients and do a second ferment. My logic is that the blackberry juice is so concentrated and I still have the bag of crushed blackberries that there should be plenty of congers left to make a second batch. This time I would not make the mistake of leaving out the nutrients and other items to finish the ferment.

                            Is there anything wrong with this plan? 


                          • edbar44
                            I do this very often because I start with very high OG of 1.130 or more using distillers yeast and the ferment dies at around 1.010 or a little lower but
                            Message 13 of 16 , Dec 27, 2014
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                              I do this very often because I start with very high OG of 1.130 or more using distillers yeast and the ferment dies at around 1.010 or a little lower but rarely makes it to the .980 range so I just use the backset and like you said adjust the pH because it is quite low, add my sugar and nutrients and off to the races again, have never had a problem and I'm making GNS
                            • Jerry McCullough
                              What chemical do you use to elevate the pH? Is there a formula I can use to calculate how much of that chemical I have to use to increase the pH of a known
                              Message 14 of 16 , Dec 31, 2014
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                                What chemical do you use to elevate the pH? Is there a formula I can use to calculate how much of that chemical I have to use to increase the pH of a known volume to a pH of 6?  

                                Jerry McCullough


                                On Saturday, December 27, 2014 10:28 AM, "edbar44@... [new_distillers]" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


                                 
                                I do this very often because I start with very high OG of 1.130 or more using distillers yeast and the ferment dies at around 1.010 or a little lower but rarely makes it to the .980 range so I just use the backset and like you said adjust the pH because it is quite low, add my sugar and nutrients and off to the races again, have never had a problem and I'm making GNS


                              • John The Fatbloke
                                Potassium carbonate. Formula ? Dunno. I just add it in small quantities, then test again....... On 31 Dec 2014 14:18, Jerry McCullough jkmccull@yahoo.com
                                Message 15 of 16 , Dec 31, 2014
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                                  Potassium carbonate. Formula ? Dunno. I just add it in small quantities, then test again.......

                                  On 31 Dec 2014 14:18, "Jerry McCullough jkmccull@... [new_distillers]" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                   

                                  What chemical do you use to elevate the pH? Is there a formula I can use to calculate how much of that chemical I have to use to increase the pH of a known volume to a pH of 6?  

                                  Jerry McCullough


                                  On Saturday, December 27, 2014 10:28 AM, "edbar44@yahoo.com [new_distillers]" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


                                   
                                  I do this very often because I start with very high OG of 1.130 or more using distillers yeast and the ferment dies at around 1.010 or a little lower but rarely makes it to the .980 range so I just use the backset and like you said adjust the pH because it is quite low, add my sugar and nutrients and off to the races again, have never had a problem and I'm making GNS


                                • edbar44
                                  I use soda ash which is sodium carbonate and readily available.
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Jan 3
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                                    I use soda ash which is sodium carbonate and readily available.
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