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Re: JEM Wash questions

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  • gff_stwrt
    There would seem to be no reason the method we used in making ginger beer would not work. (Makes good ginger beer; the original batch of ginger beer plant uses
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 3, 2011
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      There would seem to be no reason the method we used in making ginger beer would not work.
      (Makes good ginger beer; the original batch of ginger beer plant uses 'wild' yeast, don't know where from, might be from the sultanas or from the air but it always seems to work.
      It SHOULD be possible to raise similar yeast in this way for distillation if you have no access to commercial yeast or if you want to try it as an experiment.) (Just don't use ginger!)

      The following is copied from Green Living Australia.com.au

      Judith
      Guest
      Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:46 am Post subject: Ginger Beer.

      I'm just starting off my Ginger Beer Plant as we find it really refreshing in the evenings and thought others might like the recipe.

      To Make the Plant.

      8 sultanas 4 teaspoons sugar
      juice of 2 lemons 2 teaspoons ground ginger
      1 teaspoon lemon pulp 1 pint of cold water.

      Put all above into a screw top jar. Leave for 2 / 3 days, (longer in cold weather) and mixture should begin to ferment.

      After fermentation has started, feed daily for 7 days with

      2 teaspoons ground ginger and 4 teaspoons sugar

      To Make Ginger Beer.

      2 pints Boiling Water Juice of 4 Lemons
      2 lb Sugar 14 pints of Cold Water.

      Pour boiling water onto sugar. Stir until dossolved. Add lemon juice. Strain the ginger beer plant into this mixture using a piece of muslin, squeeze the muslin dry and set aside. Add cold water stir and pour into clean dry air-tight bottles. Seal securely. I use stubby bottles and cap them but my friend uses any soft drink bottles with a screw cap.
      Halve the residue in muslin and place back into the jar with
      1 pint of water 2 teaspoons ginger and 4 teaspoons sugar.

      Feed for another week and bottle again.

      I find I have to be careful with the sugar if using the capped bottles as too much will cause them to explode. Rather messy and all that work gone to waste.
      Judith

      end quote

      So.
      If you strain the trub through muslin; (you don't have to...)
      (and if you want, start a new, same size, batch of wash with half the trub, using just lukewarm water);
      then for each 'yeast batch' using half the trub, add water (I would use just lukewarm, not cold)
      (for a ginger beer batch of around 7 quarts/litres she adds half a quart/litre so increase in proportion to the amount of your original wash)
      then add 4 teaspoons of sugar a day for the 7 quarts so increase in proportion;
      and in 7 days you should have a batch of yeast ready for another wash.
      (I would use an airlock).

      Should work and it is simple.

      Regards,
      The Baker

      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <tomhawk412@...> wrote:
      >
      > JB,
      >
      > Can trub be safely stored

      snip>
      > Thanks,
      >
      > Tom
      >
    • jamesonbeam1
      Yes Tom, It can be stored at this temp for up to 6 months according to Dr. MB Raines-Cassleman. However, she strongly reommends keeping a master stock and
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 3, 2011
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        Yes Tom,

        It can be stored at this temp for up to 6 months according to Dr. MB Raines-Cassleman.  However, she strongly reommends keeping a master stock and drawing from that.  There are several media you can use to do this.  Freezing is also an option with longer life spans than the liquid media. I highly recommend you read through her excellent discussiion on Yeast Maintenance and Propagation at http://maltosefalcons.com/tech/yeast-propagation-and-maintenance-principles-and-practicess  and see which method is best for you.  I also only practice harvesting yeast during the summers when fermenting all the time.

        And yes, backset may also be kept for a long time if taken directly from the boiler and then frozen or put in air-tight jars as JD mentioned.  Of course, if your making rum, many distillers let the backset or 'dunder' as its called in rum making, age and oxidize and exposed to air for additional flavors.

        JB. aka Waldo.

         

         --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <tomhawk412@...> wrote:

        >
        > JB,
        >
        > Can trub be safely stored under refrigeration at 40 degrees F (4 degrees C)? If so, for how long? Can it be frozen and safely stored? If so, for how long? As I understand it, there are many benefits to using trub but if the fermentation process has to be repeated immediately after it's finished, in order to maintain the integrity of the trub, A hobbyiest such as I will have a difficult time taking full advantage of the process.
        >
        > When using "backset" for sour mash, can it be stored under refrigeration (cold or frozen) for the same reasons; and again, for how long?
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Tom
        >
        >
        > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" jamesonbeam1@ wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > Duane,
        > >
        > > Looks like you did everything correctly. I would check you yeast date
        > > codes and make sure they are current. I would also try a couple of more
        > > runs with all the left over trub and see if your times start decreasing.
        > > Make sure this trub is not left sitting around after fermentation and
        > > clearing, but is kept refigerated.
        > >
        > > JB. aka Waldo.
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Duane" <dsmith1997@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I used 12# sugar, 2 tblspn miracle grow, 2 packs EC-1118 for first
        > > batch, 1 16oz can Rockstar. I inverted sugar each time using 12 cups
        > > water and 8 tblsp (24 tsp) lemon juice. Topped this to 5 gal. For batch
        > > 2 and three used 2 quarts trub from batch's 1 and 2 respectively and
        > > added a new pack EC-1118 to batch 2 and 3. Inverted sugar for the
        > > additional batches as well.
        > > >
        > > > Just didn't get the performance I was hoping for?
        > > >
        > > > Duane
        > >
        >

      • jamesonbeam1
        Thankyou Dave, And this excellent information. Hope other people interested in reusing the trub read this also. JB. aka Waldo. ... Hi Jim and Duane
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 3, 2011
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          Thankyou Dave,

          And this excellent information.  Hope other people interested in reusing the trub read this also.

          JB. aka Waldo.


          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Dave <bbmdave@...> wrote:

          Hi Jim and Duane

          Congratulations on the ownership thing Jim, and thank you for the JEM wash.
          Of all the washes that I have done the Jem wash produces the smoothest vodka
          with no off tastes.

          On the problem of not having very much trub when you are just starting up,
          what I do now on the first two fermentations is add a small can of tomato paste
          5 or 6 oz and two womans muti vitamins ground up in a blender, to the mix.
          The paste seems to bulk it up and make it slightly thicker.

          I get more trub and it comes out OK every time, I don't know if the mix needs the added vitamins, but it dosent seem to hurt anything. I go back to the original recipe after
          the first two times.

          fermentation time is approx 5 to 6 days the third time, air temperature between 75F and 82F (I have a temperature controlled Styrofoam box to keep the temp constant) I live in Canada temperatures drop at night even in the summer

          I have gone up to 10 times adding one packet of EC-1118 every time (I don't know if I need the yeast packet every time but it just seems like cheap insurance)

          Dave
        • Tom
          JB, Thanks! I appreciate the information and the timeliness of your response, as usual. Tom
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 4, 2011
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            JB,

            Thanks! I appreciate the information and the timeliness of your response, as usual.

            Tom

            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Yes Tom,
            >
            > It can be stored at this temp for up to 6 months according to Dr. MB
            > Raines-Cassleman. However, she strongly reommends keeping a master
            > stock and drawing from that. There are several media you can use to do
            > this. Freezing is also an option with longer life spans than the liquid
            > media. I highly recommend you read through her excellent discussiion on
            > Yeast Maintenance and Propagation at
            > http://maltosefalcons.com/tech/yeast-propagation-and-maintenance-princip\
            > les-and-practicess
            > <http://maltosefalcons.com/tech/yeast-propagation-and-maintenance-princi\
            > ples-and-practicess> and see which method is best for you. I also
            > only practice harvesting yeast during the summers when fermenting all
            > the time.
            >
            > And yes, backset may also be kept for a long time if taken directly from
            > the boiler and then frozen or put in air-tight jars as JD mentioned. Of
            > course, if your making rum, many distillers let the backset or 'dunder'
            > as its called in rum making, age and oxidize and exposed to air for
            > additional flavors.
            >
            > JB. aka Waldo.
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <tomhawk412@> wrote:
            > >
            > > JB,
            > >
            > > Can trub be safely stored under refrigeration at 40 degrees F (4
            > degrees C)? If so, for how long? Can it be frozen and safely stored? If
            > so, for how long? As I understand it, there are many benefits to using
            > trub but if the fermentation process has to be repeated immediately
            > after it's finished, in order to maintain the integrity of the trub, A
            > hobbyiest such as I will have a difficult time taking full advantage of
            > the process.
            > >
            > > When using "backset" for sour mash, can it be stored under
            > refrigeration (cold or frozen) for the same reasons; and again, for how
            > long?
            > >
            > > Thanks,
            > >
            > > Tom
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" jamesonbeam1@
            > wrote:
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Duane,
            > > >
            > > > Looks like you did everything correctly. I would check you yeast
            > date
            > > > codes and make sure they are current. I would also try a couple of
            > more
            > > > runs with all the left over trub and see if your times start
            > decreasing.
            > > > Make sure this trub is not left sitting around after fermentation
            > and
            > > > clearing, but is kept refigerated.
            > > >
            > > > JB. aka Waldo.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Duane" <dsmith1997@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > I used 12# sugar, 2 tblspn miracle grow, 2 packs EC-1118 for first
            > > > batch, 1 16oz can Rockstar. I inverted sugar each time using 12 cups
            > > > water and 8 tblsp (24 tsp) lemon juice. Topped this to 5 gal. For
            > batch
            > > > 2 and three used 2 quarts trub from batch's 1 and 2 respectively and
            > > > added a new pack EC-1118 to batch 2 and 3. Inverted sugar for the
            > > > additional batches as well.
            > > > >
            > > > > Just didn't get the performance I was hoping for?
            > > > >
            > > > > Duane
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Duane
            Hi Guys, Dave thanks for your comments on this as well. These batched were done back to back, no storage in frig. Sorry to say I gave up after batch 3 and will
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 4, 2011
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              Hi Guys,

              Dave thanks for your comments on this as well. These batched were done back to back, no storage in frig. Sorry to say I gave up after batch 3 and will have to start over. Last year when I got the better results using rockstar I do remember having used tomato paste as well. Anyway it will be a few months before I can go at this again. Oh teah the dates on the EC1118 were current.

              Thanks again for the advice.

              Duane

              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Thankyou Dave,
              >
              > And this excellent information. Hope other people interested in reusing
              > the trub read this also.
              >
              > JB. aka Waldo.
              >
              >
              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Dave <bbmdave@> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Jim and Duane
              > Congratulations on the ownership thing Jim, and thank you for the JEM
              > wash. Of all the washes that I have done the Jem wash produces the
              > smoothest vodka with no off tastes.
              > On the problem of not having very much trub when you are just starting
              > up, what I do now on the first two fermentations is add a small can of
              > tomato paste 5 or 6 oz and two womans muti vitamins ground up in a
              > blender, to the mix. The paste seems to bulk it up and make it slightly
              > thicker.
              > I get more trub and it comes out OK every time, I don't know if the mix
              > needs the added vitamins, but it dosent seem to hurt anything. I go back
              > to the original recipe after the first two times.
              > fermentation time is approx 5 to 6 days the third time, air temperature
              > between 75F and 82F (I have a temperature controlled Styrofoam box to
              > keep the temp constant) I live in Canada temperatures drop at night even
              > in the summer
              > I have gone up to 10 times adding one packet of EC-1118 every time (I
              > don't know if I need the yeast packet every time but it just seems like
              > cheap insurance)
              > Dave
              >
            • Dave
              Hi again, As a follow up on the addition of tomato paste,to the JEM wash and also the addition of absorbic acid or vitamin C . I hope this way to add info to
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 13, 2011
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                Hi again,
                 
                As a follow up on the addition of tomato paste,to the JEM wash and also the addition of absorbic acid or vitamin C .
                I hope this way to add info to the thread works,
                Thank you Mark for finding this and Harry for the original post.

                Dave 
                 
                There is more info in the message found here.  [new_distillers] Re: corn syrup and corn meal
                From:
                mav <mavnkaf@...> 
                Add to Contacts
                To:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com    Feb 13, 2011




                From: Duane <dsmith1997@...>
                To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 10:44:25 AM
                Subject: [new_distillers] Re: JEM Wash questions

                 

                Hi Guys,

                Dave thanks for your comments on this as well. These batched were done back to back, no storage in frig. Sorry to say I gave up after batch 3 and will have to start over. Last year when I got the better results using rockstar I do remember having used tomato paste as well. Anyway it will be a few months before I can go at this again. Oh teah the dates on the EC1118 were current.

                Thanks again for the advice.

                Duane

                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Thankyou Dave,
                >
                > And this excellent information. Hope other people interested in reusing
                > the trub read this also.
                >
                > JB. aka Waldo.
                >
                >
                > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Dave <bbmdave@> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Jim and Duane
                > Congratulations on the ownership thing Jim, and thank you for the JEM
                > wash. Of all the washes that I have done the Jem wash produces the
                > smoothest vodka with no off tastes.
                > On the problem of not having very much trub when you are just starting
                > up, what I do now on the first two fermentations is add a small can of
                > tomato paste 5 or 6 oz and two womans muti vitamins ground up in a
                > blender, to the mix. The paste seems to bulk it up and make it slightly
                > thicker.
                > I get more trub and it comes out OK every time, I don't know if the mix
                > needs the added vitamins, but it dosent seem to hurt anything. I go back
                > to the original recipe after the first two times.
                > fermentation time is approx 5 to 6 days the third time, air temperature
                > between 75F and 82F (I have a temperature controlled Styrofoam box to
                > keep the temp constant) I live in Canada temperatures drop at night even
                > in the summer
                > I have gone up to 10 times adding one packet of EC-1118 every time (I
                > don't know if I need the yeast packet every time but it just seems like
                > cheap insurance)
                > Dave
                >



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              • Dave
                Well I see you can t add info that way. Here is the important part of that post ... Ok. For a long while I too couldn t see the value of tomato paste in a wash
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 13, 2011
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                  Well I see you can't add info that way.
                  Here is the important part of that post

                  > The first place I saw tomato paste referenced was in Mathew Rowleys book "Moonshine". A good read by the way. His findings led him to write that it makes a decent primary nutrient for yeast if stuff like DAP and other yeast nutrients are not available. The MUM wash ferment time DOUBLES with out it. I know for a fact that a 6oz can lowers PH 2-3 points in a 5 gallon wash but then so will lemon or lime juice and neither of those seem to help the MUM wash. Some say it does nothing at all and has no purpose in a wash. I beg to differ. Honestly though I dont have a really good explanation and havent read one either that I know of.

                  > Mason
                  > I just believe.
                  >
                  Ok. For a long while I too couldn't see the value of tomato paste in a wash (apart from pH control). Every analysis I saw on tomato paste showed only trace amounts of a few elements.

                  In fact the sodium chloride (salt) levels were a bit of a worry as salt retards yeast activity (dries 'em out & kills 'em).
                  Then it dawned on me....Vitamin C (ascorbic acid, 20mg per 100g) is a CATALYST !! Its presence in metabolic activity (human AND yeastie beasties) accelerates the chemical reactions and uptake of available nutrients (other vitamins & minerals).
                  So to prove the theory I tried Vitamin C powder as a substitute and left out the tomato paste. The ferment was slow. What gives? Another mental flash......if there's no "other vitamins & minerals" (no tomato paste or yeast supplement) then there's nothing to catalyse (speed up).
                  So I tried Vitamin C and a proprietary yeast nutrient powder. Reaction?....VERY FAST. Near TURBO-like!
                  Then I tried tomato paste with added Vitamin C. Almost the same speed as the nutrient / VitC combination.
                  Conclusion...tomato paste has enough trace elements & VitC to enhance a yeast fermentation and is a good alternative source of yeast nutrients. The high salt content doesn't seem to affect the fermentation.
                  Further, VitC is a very good catalyst to yeast nutrient metabolism. And in conjunction with a properly formulated yeast nutrient supplement can be the spark needed in fermentations.
                  Be aware that the VitC itself is NOT used up. Catalysts speed up a reaction without themselves being changed or used up in the reaction. Don't ask me how. I'm not a chemist, but that's how they work.
                  So the added VitC will remain in the finished wash. This is a good thing because ascorbic acid (VitC) has a few more tricks to perform for us. VitC is a non-volatile substance, meaning it doesn't distil over into your distillate. In fact ascorbic acid (specifically L-ascorbic acid 2-glucoside) is a known " sulfide production inhibitor". This means that it can contribute to the lowering of the volatile sulfides present in your wash. That means there's not so much sulfide for the copper to take out, which means cleaner distillate and end-product. 
                  HTH
                  Slainte!
                  regards Harry
                  ps...another snippet to file away in your notes. :)


                  From: Dave <bbmdave@...>
                  To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sun, February 13, 2011 8:51:27 AM
                  Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: JEM Wash questions

                   

                  Hi again,
                   
                  As a follow up on the addition of tomato paste,to the JEM wash and also the addition of absorbic acid or vitamin C .
                  I hope this way to add info to the thread works,
                  Thank you Mark for finding this and Harry for the original post.

                  Dave 
                   
                  There is more info in the message found here.  [new_distillers] Re: corn syrup and corn meal
                  From:
                  mav <mavnkaf@...> 
                  Add to Contacts
                  To:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com    Feb 13, 2011




                  From: Duane <dsmith1997@...>
                  To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 10:44:25 AM
                  Subject: [new_distillers] Re: JEM Wash questions

                   

                  Hi Guys,

                  Dave thanks for your comments on this as well. These batched were done back to back, no storage in frig. Sorry to say I gave up after batch 3 and will have to start over. Last year when I got the better results using rockstar I do remember having used tomato paste as well. Anyway it will be a few months before I can go at this again. Oh teah the dates on the EC1118 were current.

                  Thanks again for the advice.

                  Duane

                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Thankyou Dave,
                  >
                  > And this excellent information. Hope other people interested in reusing
                  > the trub read this also.
                  >
                  > JB. aka Waldo.
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Dave <bbmdave@> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Jim and Duane
                  > Congratulations on the ownership thing Jim, and thank you for the JEM
                  > wash. Of all the washes that I have done the Jem wash produces the
                  > smoothest vodka with no off tastes.
                  > On the problem of not having very much trub when you are just starting
                  > up, what I do now on the first two fermentations is add a small can of
                  > tomato paste 5 or 6 oz and two womans muti vitamins ground up in a
                  > blender, to the mix. The paste seems to bulk it up and make it slightly
                  > thicker.
                  > I get more trub and it comes out OK every time, I don't know if the mix
                  > needs the added vitamins, but it dosent seem to hurt anything. I go back
                  > to the original recipe after the first two times.
                  > fermentation time is approx 5 to 6 days the third time, air temperature
                  > between 75F and 82F (I have a temperature controlled Styrofoam box to
                  > keep the temp constant) I live in Canada temperatures drop at night even
                  > in the summer
                  > I have gone up to 10 times adding one packet of EC-1118 every time (I
                  > don't know if I need the yeast packet every time but it just seems like
                  > cheap insurance)
                  > Dave
                  >



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