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Taste of low wine hearts

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  • sojourn_61
    Hi All, The basic question: If cut properly can the hearts of the low wine (first run through a pot still no column) taste good? If my wine is slightly sweet
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 3, 2011
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      Hi All,

      The basic question: If cut properly can the hearts of the low wine (first run through a pot still no column) taste good? If my wine is slightly sweet will I get some of that sweetness in my distilled spirit? If your running an alembic or similar, basic pot still to make brandies (grape, mead, fruit, etc) I'd love to get your input.

      Elaboration:
      Haven't built or bought a still yet but just trying to get a feel before I start. I want to make fine brandy (i.e. no flavors added just aged on chips/cubes/staves. Most fine brandies (cognac being the obvious example) are made through double distillation in pot stills. The idea being retaining much of the character of the original wine. Now I found a calculator that produces a chart as follows (note that the definition of tails etc is up to you I just used defaults):
      Link to calculator: http://www.copper-alembic.com/distilling_calculator.php?lang=en&strongi=15&amounti=10&volume=liters&initi=28&temperature=centigrade&powerhi=1200&power=watts&powerdi=1200&refluxi=10×i=10&timemi=120&timeti=15&pr_friendly=on


      Time Boil Temp Vapor Temp Collected Purity Collected Purity
      ------ --------- ---------- --------- ------ --------- ------
      10 min 91.99°C 82.03°C 518mL 57.7% 518mL 57.69%
      20 min 93.16°C 82.60°C 489mL 52.9% 1.01 L 55.36%
      30 min 94.30°C 83.29°C 460mL 47.5% 1.47 L 52.89%
      40 min 95.38°C 84.15°C 433mL 41.6% 1.90 L 50.32%
      50 min 96.34°C 85.25°C 407mL 35.4% 2.31 L 47.69%
      60 min 97.18°C 86.65°C 384mL 29.2% 2.69 L 45.06%
      70 min 97.89°C 88.34°C 365mL 23.4% 3.06 L 42.48%
      80 min 98.45°C 90.24°C 349mL 18.1% 3.40 L 39.99%
      90 min 98.90°C 92.20°C 336mL 13.6% 3.74 L 37.62%
      100 min 99.23°C 94.06°C 326mL 9.8% 4.07 L 35.39%
      110 min 99.48°C 95.69°C 319mL 6.9% 4.39 L 33.32%
      120 min 99.66°C 97.01°C 314mL 4.7% 4.70 L 31.41%

      *** Summary of Distillation ***

      Starting: 10.00L @ 15.0% (1.50 L pure Ethanol)
      Main Run: 4.70L @ 31.4% (1.48 L pure Ethanol)
      Tails Run: 0.03L @ 3.7% (1mL pure Ethanol)
      In boiler: 5.27L @ 0.43% (23mL pure Ethanol)

      Note that in one run of the pot still it is possible to collect ~2 liters of greater than 40% ABV brandy with a starting point of 15% ABV 10 Liters (which is where most of my wine is at). Of course this depends on where exactly I make the heads/tails cut. It seems this should be pure enough and might retain a bit more of the original wine flavor.

      I would appreciate comments.
      Thanks in advance,
      Sojourn.
    • tgfoitwoods
      Sojourn, Short answer - yes. As for sweetness, that depends entirely on what part of the sweet taste you are getting is from volatile compounds that will
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 3, 2011
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        Sojourn,

        Short answer - yes.

        As for sweetness, that depends entirely on what part of the sweet taste
        you are getting is from volatile compounds that will "cross over"
        through the condensed vapor, and that's hard to say. What is certain,
        however, is that none of the sugars will apear in the distillate.

        For a long time, I mostly distilled wines from fruits I was lucky enough
        to score, and that usually meant small amounts of wines, and for that
        reason I usually single-pot-distilled those wines. The plus side of
        single-distillation is that flavors, hopefully the good ones, can be
        maximized. On the distaff side, there is a lot of fraction "smearing" in
        a single potstill run, so good cuts will exclude of lot of your spirit.

        Clear Creek Distillery, as far as I know from talking to them, does only
        single run spirits (including a single-malt whisky, which sounds like a
        lot of work for a bit of whisky, but it's very good whisky) and their
        products are notable for great flavors.

        Because a grain whisk(e)y starts with a beer ABV much lower that most
        wines, single-stilling whisk(e)y is hard work, and is (if I may use the
        word I hate bandied about loosely) inefficient, in terms of amount of
        whisk(e)y per unit money, labor, or time.

        I don't pay a lot of attention to yield numbers, so I'm no help there,
        but using the word "purity" applied to naturally flavored distillate is
        hugely misleading. The most valued flavors in the finest whiskys,
        whiskeys, brandies, rums or marcs, are all impurities, and highly
        valued. The purest spirit we can make is the ethanol-water azeotrope,
        quite literally rocket fuel (V2, for one (or A4 if you don't like the
        "vengeance" part)), which can be diluted to vodka, the tofu of spirits
        (it tastes like whatever you put on it, if you did it right).

        I hope this helps, and should probably apologize for my biases, but what
        the hell.

        Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "sojourn_61" <sojourn_61@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Hi All,
        >
        > The basic question: If cut properly can the hearts of the low wine
        (first run through a pot still no column) taste good? If my wine is
        slightly sweet will I get some of that sweetness in my distilled spirit?
        If your running an alembic or similar, basic pot still to make brandies
        (grape, mead, fruit, etc) I'd love to get your input.
        >
        > Elaboration:
        > Haven't built or bought a still yet but just trying to get a feel
        before I start. I want to make fine brandy (i.e. no flavors added just
        aged on chips/cubes/staves. Most fine brandies (cognac being the obvious
        example) are made through double distillation in pot stills. The idea
        being retaining much of the character of the original wine. Now I found
        a calculator that produces a chart as follows (note that the definition
        of tails etc is up to you I just used defaults):
        > Link to calculator:
        http://www.copper-alembic.com/distilling_calculator.php?lang=en&strongi=\
        15&amounti=10&volume=liters&initi=28&temperature=centigrade&powerhi=1200\
        &power=watts&powerdi=1200&refluxi=10×i=10&timemi=120&timeti=15&pr_f\
        riendly=on
        >
        >
        ----snip----
        >
        > Note that in one run of the pot still it is possible to collect ~2
        liters of greater than 40% ABV brandy with a starting point of 15% ABV
        10 Liters (which is where most of my wine is at). Of course this depends
        on where exactly I make the heads/tails cut. It seems this should be
        pure enough and might retain a bit more of the original wine flavor.
        >
        > I would appreciate comments.
        > Thanks in advance,
        > Sojourn.
        >
      • sojourn_61
        Hi Bob, Thanks very much for your input. It confirms much of what I suspected. And good to know (if not a little disappointing) that no sugar makes it through.
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 4, 2011
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          Hi Bob,
          Thanks very much for your input. It confirms much of what I suspected. And good to know (if not a little disappointing) that no sugar makes it through. This will effect the way I make my wine when I finally get it together to make or buy a still.

          I guess that bourbon and brandies get their sweetness then entirely from the wood where as the wine adds flavor. Your the first source that has told me that no sugars make it over.

          Do you flavor or age your brandy? Barrels, chips, cubes, or staves? how long?

          Thanks again for taking the time to answer,
          Sojourn


          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
          >
          > Sojourn,
          >
          > Short answer - yes.
          >
          > As for sweetness, that depends entirely on what part of the sweet taste
          > you are getting is from volatile compounds that will "cross over"
          > through the condensed vapor, and that's hard to say. What is certain,
          > however, is that none of the sugars will apear in the distillate.
          >
          > For a long time, I mostly distilled wines from fruits I was lucky enough
          > to score, and that usually meant small amounts of wines, and for that
          > reason I usually single-pot-distilled those wines. The plus side of
          > single-distillation is that flavors, hopefully the good ones, can be
          > maximized. On the distaff side, there is a lot of fraction "smearing" in
          > a single potstill run, so good cuts will exclude of lot of your spirit.
          >
          > Clear Creek Distillery, as far as I know from talking to them, does only
          > single run spirits (including a single-malt whisky, which sounds like a
          > lot of work for a bit of whisky, but it's very good whisky) and their
          > products are notable for great flavors.
          >
          > Because a grain whisk(e)y starts with a beer ABV much lower that most
          > wines, single-stilling whisk(e)y is hard work, and is (if I may use the
          > word I hate bandied about loosely) inefficient, in terms of amount of
          > whisk(e)y per unit money, labor, or time.
          >
          > I don't pay a lot of attention to yield numbers, so I'm no help there,
          > but using the word "purity" applied to naturally flavored distillate is
          > hugely misleading. The most valued flavors in the finest whiskys,
          > whiskeys, brandies, rums or marcs, are all impurities, and highly
          > valued. The purest spirit we can make is the ethanol-water azeotrope,
          > quite literally rocket fuel (V2, for one (or A4 if you don't like the
          > "vengeance" part)), which can be diluted to vodka, the tofu of spirits
          > (it tastes like whatever you put on it, if you did it right).
          >
          > I hope this helps, and should probably apologize for my biases, but what
          > the hell.
          >
          > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
          >
          > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "sojourn_61" <sojourn_61@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi All,
          > >
          > > The basic question: If cut properly can the hearts of the low wine
          > (first run through a pot still no column) taste good? If my wine is
          > slightly sweet will I get some of that sweetness in my distilled spirit?
          > If your running an alembic or similar, basic pot still to make brandies
          > (grape, mead, fruit, etc) I'd love to get your input.
          > >
          > > Elaboration:
          > > Haven't built or bought a still yet but just trying to get a feel
          > before I start. I want to make fine brandy (i.e. no flavors added just
          > aged on chips/cubes/staves. Most fine brandies (cognac being the obvious
          > example) are made through double distillation in pot stills. The idea
          > being retaining much of the character of the original wine. Now I found
          > a calculator that produces a chart as follows (note that the definition
          > of tails etc is up to you I just used defaults):
          > > Link to calculator:
          > http://www.copper-alembic.com/distilling_calculator.php?lang=en&strongi=\
          > 15&amounti=10&volume=liters&initi=28&temperature=centigrade&powerhi=1200\
          > &power=watts&powerdi=1200&refluxi=10×i=10&timemi=120&timeti=15&pr_f\
          > riendly=on
          > >
          > >
          > ----snip----
          > >
          > > Note that in one run of the pot still it is possible to collect ~2
          > liters of greater than 40% ABV brandy with a starting point of 15% ABV
          > 10 Liters (which is where most of my wine is at). Of course this depends
          > on where exactly I make the heads/tails cut. It seems this should be
          > pure enough and might retain a bit more of the original wine flavor.
          > >
          > > I would appreciate comments.
          > > Thanks in advance,
          > > Sojourn.
          > >
          >
        • tgfoitwoods
          Sojourn, To make sure I wasn t exaggerating about no sugar in the distillate, I googled the MSDS for sucrose, to see what its vapor pressure is (no vapor
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 4, 2011
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            Sojourn,

            To make sure I wasn't exaggerating about no sugar in the distillate, I googled the MSDS for sucrose, to see what its vapor pressure is (no vapor pressure, no vapor, and no sugar in the distillate). According to that, vapor pressure in mm Hg is "no information found", that is, no measurable vapor pressure.

            As far as what compounds give the illusion or fact of sweetness, simple oaking dissolves tannins and flavinoids into the spirit, and oxidation (that's why I airstone O2) changes some of those compounds to a class of compounds called "vanillins", which I think are not actually sweet, but appear to confer "sweetness" on the spirit in the same way that vanilla extract appears to make whipped cream sweeter, with having any real sweetness in it.

            In some cases, spirits are actually sweetened by either the addition of port or sherry directly (I think that cheapass "cognac" that we used to drink in Spain was laced with port to make it more palatable), or by aging in barrels previously used for port or sherry. The caramel used to color some spirits inevitably still has a bit of sugar in it.

            In addition to sugars, there is a whole raft of compounds that really are sweet, like glycerine, ethylene glycol (an automotive anti freeze - if your heater leaks, your car smells like maple syrup), all the artificial sweeteners, and even lead acetate, that toxic compound called "sugar of lead" for its sweetness. I'm sure there must be hundreds more, but I hope only the non-toxic ones find their way into your spirit (glycerine is used in some spirits to give both sweetness and mouthfeel).

            I oak/age many of my spirits, and many of those are brandies, in glass with splints cut, split, and toasted from used bourbon barrels, and I beleive that gives me access to a complex mess of flavoring compounds that have developed in the wood during the original whiskey aging. I think there's no doubt that there are fewer of the harsh wood compounds left in the wood after that original whiskey aging. I don't use a fixed time; I make my judgements first by color, and fine-tune by taste.

            I know I'm doing a lot of hand-waving, and making this seem complicated, but the human olfactory system and the brain parts that handle that input are hugely complex. I'm just trying to make some sense of how we deal with all that.

            I hope this helps.


            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "sojourn_61" <sojourn_61@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Bob,
            > Thanks very much for your input. It confirms much of what I suspected. And good to know (if not a little disappointing) that no sugar makes it through. This will effect the way I make my wine when I finally get it together to make or buy a still.
            >
            > I guess that bourbon and brandies get their sweetness then entirely from the wood where as the wine adds flavor. Your the first source that has told me that no sugars make it over.
            >
            > Do you flavor or age your brandy? Barrels, chips, cubes, or staves? how long?
            >
            > Thanks again for taking the time to answer,
            > Sojourn
            >
            >
            > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Sojourn,
            > >
            > > Short answer - yes.
            > >
            ----snip----
            > > >
            > > > I would appreciate comments.
            > > > Thanks in advance,
            > > > Sojourn.
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • sojourn_61
            Hi Bob, Thanks again for the input. I m an engineer and research things to death so I liked the hand waving . I used wolfram alpha to get the specific heat of
            Message 5 of 14 , Jan 14, 2011
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              Hi Bob,
              Thanks again for the input. I'm an engineer and research things to death so I liked the "hand waving". I used wolfram alpha to get the specific heat of vaporization which turns out to be 0.34Kg/gram. I'm not sure how to translate that to temperature in solution but there at least does seem to be a vaporization point leaving open the possibility that some might make it over to the distillate. I remember in my web search for information that one of the bourbon web sites talked about the fact that corn gives the distillate its sweetness suggesting that perhaps some sugar makes it over. But then again perhaps it is a perceived sweetness from some of the other flavors.

              Oak definitely has some sugars in it. I have seen this in a few places. Here is a good description of that there are others:
              www.bjcp.org/mead/Oak_and_Mead.pdf

              Hope this interests you as much as I.
              Sojourn


              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
              >
              > Sojourn,
              >
              > To make sure I wasn't exaggerating about no sugar in the distillate, I googled the MSDS for sucrose, to see what its vapor pressure is (no vapor pressure, no vapor, and no sugar in the distillate). According to that, vapor pressure in mm Hg is "no information found", that is, no measurable vapor pressure.
              >
              > As far as what compounds give the illusion or fact of sweetness, simple oaking dissolves tannins and flavinoids into the spirit, and oxidation (that's why I airstone O2) changes some of those compounds to a class of compounds called "vanillins", which I think are not actually sweet, but appear to confer "sweetness" on the spirit in the same way that vanilla extract appears to make whipped cream sweeter, with having any real sweetness in it.
              >
              > In some cases, spirits are actually sweetened by either the addition of port or sherry directly (I think that cheapass "cognac" that we used to drink in Spain was laced with port to make it more palatable), or by aging in barrels previously used for port or sherry. The caramel used to color some spirits inevitably still has a bit of sugar in it.
              >
              > In addition to sugars, there is a whole raft of compounds that really are sweet, like glycerine, ethylene glycol (an automotive anti freeze - if your heater leaks, your car smells like maple syrup), all the artificial sweeteners, and even lead acetate, that toxic compound called "sugar of lead" for its sweetness. I'm sure there must be hundreds more, but I hope only the non-toxic ones find their way into your spirit (glycerine is used in some spirits to give both sweetness and mouthfeel).
              >
              > I oak/age many of my spirits, and many of those are brandies, in glass with splints cut, split, and toasted from used bourbon barrels, and I beleive that gives me access to a complex mess of flavoring compounds that have developed in the wood during the original whiskey aging. I think there's no doubt that there are fewer of the harsh wood compounds left in the wood after that original whiskey aging. I don't use a fixed time; I make my judgements first by color, and fine-tune by taste.
              >
              > I know I'm doing a lot of hand-waving, and making this seem complicated, but the human olfactory system and the brain parts that handle that input are hugely complex. I'm just trying to make some sense of how we deal with all that.
              >
              > I hope this helps.
              >
              >
              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "sojourn_61" <sojourn_61@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Bob,
              > > Thanks very much for your input. It confirms much of what I suspected. And good to know (if not a little disappointing) that no sugar makes it through. This will effect the way I make my wine when I finally get it together to make or buy a still.
              > >
              > > I guess that bourbon and brandies get their sweetness then entirely from the wood where as the wine adds flavor. Your the first source that has told me that no sugars make it over.
              > >
              > > Do you flavor or age your brandy? Barrels, chips, cubes, or staves? how long?
              > >
              > > Thanks again for taking the time to answer,
              > > Sojourn
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Sojourn,
              > > >
              > > > Short answer - yes.
              > > >
              > ----snip----
              > > > >
              > > > > I would appreciate comments.
              > > > > Thanks in advance,
              > > > > Sojourn.
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • sojourn_61
              replying to myself. How pathetic. Just to clarify the specific heat of vaporization I mentioned was for sucrose. Just realized that I forgot to write that.
              Message 6 of 14 , Jan 14, 2011
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                replying to myself. How pathetic. Just to clarify the specific heat of vaporization I mentioned was for sucrose. Just realized that I forgot to write that.
                Sojourn


                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "sojourn_61" <sojourn_61@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Bob,
                > Thanks again for the input. I'm an engineer and research things to death so I liked the "hand waving". I used wolfram alpha to get the specific heat of vaporization which turns out to be 0.34Kg/gram. I'm not sure how to translate that to temperature in solution but there at least does seem to be a vaporization point leaving open the possibility that some might make it over to the distillate. I remember in my web search for information that one of the bourbon web sites talked about the fact that corn gives the distillate its sweetness suggesting that perhaps some sugar makes it over. But then again perhaps it is a perceived sweetness from some of the other flavors.
                >
                > Oak definitely has some sugars in it. I have seen this in a few places. Here is a good description of that there are others:
                > www.bjcp.org/mead/Oak_and_Mead.pdf
                >
                > Hope this interests you as much as I.
                > Sojourn
                >
                >
                > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Sojourn,
                > >
                > > To make sure I wasn't exaggerating about no sugar in the distillate, I googled the MSDS for sucrose, to see what its vapor pressure is (no vapor pressure, no vapor, and no sugar in the distillate). According to that, vapor pressure in mm Hg is "no information found", that is, no measurable vapor pressure.
                > >
                > > As far as what compounds give the illusion or fact of sweetness, simple oaking dissolves tannins and flavinoids into the spirit, and oxidation (that's why I airstone O2) changes some of those compounds to a class of compounds called "vanillins", which I think are not actually sweet, but appear to confer "sweetness" on the spirit in the same way that vanilla extract appears to make whipped cream sweeter, with having any real sweetness in it.
                > >
                > > In some cases, spirits are actually sweetened by either the addition of port or sherry directly (I think that cheapass "cognac" that we used to drink in Spain was laced with port to make it more palatable), or by aging in barrels previously used for port or sherry. The caramel used to color some spirits inevitably still has a bit of sugar in it.
                > >
                > > In addition to sugars, there is a whole raft of compounds that really are sweet, like glycerine, ethylene glycol (an automotive anti freeze - if your heater leaks, your car smells like maple syrup), all the artificial sweeteners, and even lead acetate, that toxic compound called "sugar of lead" for its sweetness. I'm sure there must be hundreds more, but I hope only the non-toxic ones find their way into your spirit (glycerine is used in some spirits to give both sweetness and mouthfeel).
                > >
                > > I oak/age many of my spirits, and many of those are brandies, in glass with splints cut, split, and toasted from used bourbon barrels, and I beleive that gives me access to a complex mess of flavoring compounds that have developed in the wood during the original whiskey aging. I think there's no doubt that there are fewer of the harsh wood compounds left in the wood after that original whiskey aging. I don't use a fixed time; I make my judgements first by color, and fine-tune by taste.
                > >
                > > I know I'm doing a lot of hand-waving, and making this seem complicated, but the human olfactory system and the brain parts that handle that input are hugely complex. I'm just trying to make some sense of how we deal with all that.
                > >
                > > I hope this helps.
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "sojourn_61" <sojourn_61@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hi Bob,
                > > > Thanks very much for your input. It confirms much of what I suspected. And good to know (if not a little disappointing) that no sugar makes it through. This will effect the way I make my wine when I finally get it together to make or buy a still.
                > > >
                > > > I guess that bourbon and brandies get their sweetness then entirely from the wood where as the wine adds flavor. Your the first source that has told me that no sugars make it over.
                > > >
                > > > Do you flavor or age your brandy? Barrels, chips, cubes, or staves? how long?
                > > >
                > > > Thanks again for taking the time to answer,
                > > > Sojourn
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Sojourn,
                > > > >
                > > > > Short answer - yes.
                > > > >
                > > ----snip----
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I would appreciate comments.
                > > > > > Thanks in advance,
                > > > > > Sojourn.
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • tgfoitwoods
                Ooooh, Ooooh, Sojourn! That s the best information I ve seen on oak compounds and booze flavoring, and I thank you very much. I m bookmarking this link, and I
                Message 7 of 14 , Jan 14, 2011
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                  Ooooh, Ooooh, Sojourn!

                  That's the best information I've seen on oak compounds and booze flavoring, and I thank you very much. I'm bookmarking this link, and I can use some of this information for something I'm writing about aging spirits.

                  Because of the complexity of organic chemistry as generated by real organisms, piped through the ager's processes to the human olfactory structures and learned perceptions, pretty much anything we describe is going to involve a lot of generalizations and hand waving, but this information is super.

                  I'd never even heard of the Lactone twins, Cis and Trans, but this supports my thesis that a home-roasted chunk of oak, of an appropriate size, will contain layers of different heat exposure, with different chemistries, and different flavors, can make a huge positive addition to a great spirit.

                  Interestingly, while he touched on caramelization, and what it can do to sugars, he didn't mention the Maillard reaction, a kind of analogous heat-induced reaction in amino acids, also a big deal in flavors.

                  As for vaporizing sucrose, I guess I've seen it happen, and just never thought of it, probably because it happens at temperature that are actively caramelizing the sugar as it boils. I make my own caramel, and start with no water in the sugar, and actually see something that looks like boiling, but that may just be water released from decomposing sucrose losing its "hydration".

                  Thanks so much for this.

                  Don't be ashamed of the engineering part; I suspect there are lot's of 'em lurking around here.

                  Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "sojourn_61" <sojourn_61@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Bob,
                  > Thanks again for the input. I'm an engineer and research things to death so I liked the "hand waving". I used wolfram alpha to get the specific heat of vaporization which turns out to be 0.34Kg/gram. I'm not sure how to translate that to temperature in solution but there at least does seem to be a vaporization point leaving open the possibility that some might make it over to the distillate. I remember in my web search for information that one of the bourbon web sites talked about the fact that corn gives the distillate its sweetness suggesting that perhaps some sugar makes it over. But then again perhaps it is a perceived sweetness from some of the other flavors.
                  ----snip----
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I would appreciate comments.
                  > > > > > Thanks in advance,
                  > > > > > Sojourn.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Harry
                  ... , tgfoitwoods ... flavoring, and I thank you very much. I m bookmarking this link, and I can use
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jan 14, 2011
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                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Ooooh, Ooooh, Sojourn!
                    >
                    > That's the best information I've seen on oak compounds and booze flavoring, and I thank you very much. I'm bookmarking this link, and I can use some of this information for something I'm writing about aging spirits.

                    <snip>

                    I'd never even heard of the Lactone twins, Cis and Trans,

                     

                     

                    Ha!  ZB, where's yer homework?  (yeah I know.  The dog ate it)  :D

                    From the book "Flavors & Fragrances" by R G Berger (2007) pg 226 (237 of 649)

                    It's in my Library in the production section.

                    "By storing distillates in wooden casks, volatile aroma compounds like cis-â-methyl-ã-octalactone and trans-â-methyl-ã-octalactone (`whisky lactone'), vanillin, guajacol, eugenol, cresols, and other phenolic compounds migrate from the toasted wood into the distillate. These compounds are responsible for the characteristic oak wood and vanilla-like flavour [21]. Table 10.3 gives a summary of typical aroma compounds of oak wood and their odour thresholds."

                    There are several books in the Library that deal with oak & barrels & aging.  Feel free to tead them any time.

                    ...and don't forget this one on Tony's site.  It's an in-depth look at oak...
                    http://homedistiller.org/oak.pdf

                    ...and he's got a chart of what toasting level produces which flavours...

                     

                    Slainte!
                    regards Harry

                    http://distillers.tastylime.net/library

                  • tgfoitwoods
                    I shoulda known! I shoulda shoulda known! As soon as I saw you replying to my post, I shoulda known that information was in your library, and that I d
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jan 14, 2011
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                      I shoulda known! I shoulda shoulda known! As soon as I saw you replying to my post, I shoulda known that information was in your library, and that I'd disgraced myself by missing it. Is there any chance I could still blame the dog?

                      As far as the oak-toasting/flavor graphic, who has control of Tony's site these days? I've seen and loved that diagram before, but I'd like to ask whoever owns the rights on it these days if I could borrow it, with appropriate attributions, of course.

                      Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com> , "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Ooooh, Ooooh, Sojourn!
                      > >
                      > > That's the best information I've seen on oak compounds and booze
                      > flavoring, and I thank you very much. I'm bookmarking this link, and I
                      > can use some of this information for something I'm writing about aging
                      > spirits.
                      >
                      > <snip>
                      >
                      > I'd never even heard of the Lactone twins, Cis and Trans,
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Ha! ZB, where's yer homework? (yeah I know. The dog ate it) [:D]
                      >
                      > From the book "Flavors & Fragrances" by R G Berger (2007) pg 226 (237 of
                      > 649)
                      >
                      > It's in my Library in the production section.
                      >
                      > "By storing distillates in wooden casks, volatile aroma compounds like
                      > cis-â-methyl-ã-octalactone and trans-â-methyl-ã-octalactone
                      > (`whisky lactone'), vanillin, guajacol, eugenol, cresols, and
                      > other phenolic compounds migrate from the toasted wood into the
                      > distillate. These compounds are responsible for the characteristic oak
                      > wood and vanilla-like flavour [21]. Table 10.3 gives a summary of
                      > typical aroma compounds of oak wood and their odour thresholds."
                      >
                      > There are several books in the Library that deal with oak & barrels &
                      > aging. Feel free to tead them any time.
                      >
                      > ...and don't forget this one on Tony's site. It's an in-depth look at
                      > oak...
                      > http://homedistiller.org/oak.pdf <http://homedistiller.org/oak.pdf>
                      >
                      > ...and he's got a chart of what toasting level produces which
                      > flavours...
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Slainte!
                      > regards Harry
                      >
                      > http://distillers.tastylime.net/library
                      > <http://distillers.tastylime.net/library>
                      >
                    • geoff burrows
                      Hi ZB, Don t you just hate it when you find something real good,and then you find it was yours and you had it all along bugger, bugger, bugger. The master
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jan 14, 2011
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                        Hi ZB,
                             Don't you just hate it when you find something real good,and then you find it was yours and you had it all along bugger, bugger, bugger.  The master plumber that taught me used to let me think I had thought of something brillIant and then the following day he would do exactly what harry just did and say good idea I like the way you were thinking but this is how it's done. 
                             This is how the copper upstand join on the pitch of this very low pitch copper sheet roof should be made to be totally weather proof and incorporate another upstand coming in from right angles to that.  And he would support it with a grainy photo copy of a beautifully drawn picture from a book written and drawn years ago on Copper roofing published in1800 and something or other.  But that was his way of telling you he already knew and here was the proof and I should ask first before assuming I had it all worked out.  He was a bloody good plumber, no oil painting but Hey what fella is an oil painting I think it was his way of "Manning me up"  i was only a ( green spotty 15 year old) like on that film with Clint Eastwood in "Grand Torino"  I think that's spelt right
                        All hail the king just ask and it shall be given (a bottle and a half of red into the evening) bugger wus thar any spelling mistooks?
                        Geoff
                      • jamesonbeam1
                        Hey ZB, That diagram is distributed by World Cooperage.com (click below picture on link). You can contact them at http://www.worldcooperage.com/contact-us
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jan 14, 2011
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                          Hey ZB,

                          That diagram is distributed by World Cooperage.com (click below picture on link).  You can contact them at http://www.worldcooperage.com/contact-us

                          JB. aka Waldo.


                          --- In new_distillers@yah


                          Diagram from http://www.worldcooperage.com

                          oogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote:

                          >
                          > I shoulda known! I shoulda shoulda known! As soon as I saw you replying to my post, I shoulda known that information was in your library, and that I'd disgraced myself by missing it. Is there any chance I could still blame the dog?
                          >
                          > As far as the oak-toasting/flavor graphic, who has control of Tony's site these days? I've seen and loved that diagram before, but I'd like to ask whoever owns the rights on it these days if I could borrow it, with appropriate attributions, of course.
                          >
                          > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                        • tgfoitwoods
                          Thanks Waldo, I guess everbody else know that, too? (Gripe, gripe, grump, feeling really stupid, but thanks for helpin out, Geoff) Zymurgy Bob, a simple
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jan 14, 2011
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                            Thanks Waldo,

                            I guess everbody else know that, too?

                            (Gripe, gripe, grump, feeling' really stupid, but thanks for helpin' out, Geoff)

                            Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Hey ZB,
                            >
                            > That diagram is distributed by World Cooperage.com (click below picture
                            > on link). You can contact them at
                            > http://www.worldcooperage.com/contact-us
                            > <http://www.worldcooperage.com/contact-us>
                            >
                            > JB. aka Waldo.
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In new_distillers@yah
                            >
                            >
                            > Diagram from http://www.worldcooperage.com
                            > <http://www.worldcooperage.com/>
                            >
                            > oogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" zymurgybob@ wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I shoulda known! I shoulda shoulda known! As soon as I saw you
                            > replying to my post, I shoulda known that information was in your
                            > library, and that I'd disgraced myself by missing it. Is there any
                            > chance I could still blame the dog?
                            > >
                            > > As far as the oak-toasting/flavor graphic, who has control of Tony's
                            > site these days? I've seen and loved that diagram before, but I'd like
                            > to ask whoever owns the rights on it these days if I could borrow it,
                            > with appropriate attributions, of course.
                            > >
                            > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                            >
                          • Harry
                            ... Is there any chance I could still blame the dog? Sure mate! I do (blame the dog) when I fart. :) Slainte! regards Harry
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jan 14, 2011
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                              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
                              >
                              Is there any chance I could still blame the dog?




                              Sure mate! I do (blame the dog) when I fart. :)



                              Slainte!
                              regards Harry
                            • sojourn_61
                              Hi Bob, I will try to share more info I have found when I get a chance. Iawy be proud that I are an engineer, geek, and fermenter of may things, some day
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jan 15, 2011
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                                Hi Bob,
                                I will try to share more info I have found when I get a chance. Iawy be proud that I are an engineer, geek, and fermenter of may things, some day distiller of a few also so no worries there matey (I'll make rum some day also yo-ho-ho).

                                Thanks to all who posted info on wood. Sorry it takes me so long to respond. But engineers as per the reputation have very little time for much.

                                Which reminds me of an old joke about the likes of me:
                                An engineer was crossing a road one day when a frog called out to him and said, "If you kiss me, I'll turn into a beautiful princess." He bent over, picked up the frog and put it in his pocket. The frog spoke up again and said, "If you kiss me and turn me back into a beautiful princess, I will stay with you for one week." The engineer took the frog out of his pocket, smiled at it and returned it to the pocket.

                                The frog then cried out, "If you kiss me and turn me back into a princess, I'll stay with you and do ANYTHING you want." Again the engineer took the frog out, smiled at it and put it back into his pocket.

                                Finally, the frog asked, "What is the matter? I've told you I'm a beautiful princess, that I'll stay with you for a week and do anything you want. Why won't you kiss me?"

                                The engineer said, "Look I'm an engineer. I don't have time for a girlfriend, but a talking frog, now that's cool."

                                OK got to get back to the frog and kids.
                                Sojourn


                                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Ooooh, Ooooh, Sojourn!
                                >
                                > That's the best information I've seen on oak compounds and booze flavoring, and I thank you very much.
                                > Thanks so much for this.
                                .
                                .
                                .
                                > Don't be ashamed of the engineering part; I suspect there are lot's of 'em lurking around here.
                                >
                                > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                                >
                                > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "sojourn_61" <sojourn_61@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hi Bob,
                                > > Thanks again for the input. I'm an engineer and research things to death so I liked the "hand waving". I used wolfram alpha to get the specific heat of vaporization which turns out to be 0.34Kg/gram. I'm not sure how to translate that to temperature in solution but there at least does seem to be a vaporization point leaving open the possibility that some might make it over to the distillate. I remember in my web search for information that one of the bourbon web sites talked about the fact that corn gives the distillate its sweetness suggesting that perhaps some sugar makes it over. But then again perhaps it is a perceived sweetness from some of the other flavors.
                                > ----snip----
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > I would appreciate comments.
                                > > > > > > Thanks in advance,
                                > > > > > > Sojourn.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
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