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Re: [new_distillers] Re: bicarb question

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  • justin webster
    thanks, can you name the two esters you re talking about here? is one Isobutyl Propionate? I actually went ahead and tried 4 desertspoons of bicarb in my
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 9, 2010
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      thanks,
      can you name the two esters you're talking about here?
      is one Isobutyl Propionate?

      I actually went ahead and tried 4 desertspoons of bicarb in my spirit run and the results were pretty good.
      admittedly it was a bit of a weird experimental batch which I was expecting to taste foul so I thought I'd just give it a crack.
      I'll avoid it in my good stuff.

      cheers,
      justin

      On 9/11/2010, at 9:39 AM, tgfoitwoods wrote:

       

      Justin,

      Sorry to be so slow getting back to you.

      Firstly, I'd never use bicarb in any flavored-spirit run, like
      whisk(e)y, brandy or rum. What you have seen correctly as suppression of
      ethyl acetate formation is in fact uppression of all ester formation,
      and much of the flavor and/or nose of any good liquor is in its ester
      profile. In rum there are specifically 2 esters that together are called
      "rum oil", and using bicarb will lose you all that flavor.

      Second, I'd never use bicarb in a first run, a beer-stripping run, even
      if I were aiming for a tasteless spirit. The bicarb can raise the pH
      enough to make the nitrogen compounds in your wash, mostly from yeast
      nutrients, react wiht the copper in your still, especially in the
      column, to make Schweizer's reagent, a blue copper ammonia complex that
      colors your spirit blue. And no-one wnats to drink copper compounds.

      Only use bicarb on the second (or more) still run, so there can be no
      nitrogen compounds in the wash.

      Don't worry about pH in a low-wines run; chasing pH can make you crazy
      and mess up a good wash. I use about a quarter cup in a 15-gallon still
      charge. It's certainly overkill, but it hurts nothing, and is simply an
      excess reagent in the reaction.

      Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, justin webster <mail@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi chaps,
      > I've been googling but not finding much info on the effect of bicarb
      on the likes of rum and whiskey.
      > I understand the benefits with respect to ethyl acetate but should I
      be concerned about losing or ruining some of the more desirable
      flavours?
      >
      > and I'm still not quite sure about quantities - should I aim for a
      specific pH? does 6 sound right?
      > and if so - should I be adjusting with citric acid in order to get a
      specific quantity of bicarb in there?
      >
      > cheers,
      > justin
      >


    • Glen - BetGear
      Hi, According to a post I ve read somewhere (most likely home distiller), if you re using bicarb, then it should be left in the low wines to infuse for 3-4
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 9, 2010
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        Hi,

         

        According to a post I’ve read somewhere (most likely home distiller), if you’re using bicarb, then it should be left in the low wines to infuse for 3-4 days before running through the still.

         

        Cheers

         

        Glen.

         

        From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of justin webster
        Sent: 09 November 2010 20:58
        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: bicarb question

         

         

        thanks,

        can you name the two esters you're talking about here?

        is one Isobutyl Propionate?

         

        I actually went ahead and tried 4 desertspoons of bicarb in my spirit run and the results were pretty good.

        admittedly it was a bit of a weird experimental batch which I was expecting to taste foul so I thought I'd just give it a crack.

        I'll avoid it in my good stuff.

         

        cheers,

        justin

         

        On 9/11/2010, at 9:39 AM, tgfoitwoods wrote:



         

        Justin,

        Sorry to be so slow getting back to you.

        Firstly, I'd never use bicarb in any flavored-spirit run, like
        whisk(e)y, brandy or rum. What you have seen correctly as suppression of
        ethyl acetate formation is in fact uppression of all ester formation,
        and much of the flavor and/or nose of any good liquor is in its ester
        profile. In rum there are specifically 2 esters that together are called
        "rum oil", and using bicarb will lose you all that flavor.

        Second, I'd never use bicarb in a first run, a beer-stripping run, even
        if I were aiming for a tasteless spirit. The bicarb can raise the pH
        enough to make the nitrogen compounds in your wash, mostly from yeast
        nutrients, react wiht the copper in your still, especially in the
        column, to make Schweizer's reagent, a blue copper ammonia complex that
        colors your spirit blue. And no-one wnats to drink copper compounds.

        Only use bicarb on the second (or more) still run, so there can be no
        nitrogen compounds in the wash.

        Don't worry about pH in a low-wines run; chasing pH can make you crazy
        and mess up a good wash. I use about a quarter cup in a 15-gallon still
        charge. It's certainly overkill, but it hurts nothing, and is simply an
        excess reagent in the reaction.

        Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, justin webster <mail@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi chaps,
        > I've been googling but not finding much info on the effect of bicarb
        on the likes of rum and whiskey.
        > I understand the benefits with respect to ethyl acetate but should I
        be concerned about losing or ruining some of the more desirable
        flavours?
        >
        > and I'm still not quite sure about quantities - should I aim for a
        specific pH? does 6 sound right?
        > and if so - should I be adjusting with citric acid in order to get a
        specific quantity of bicarb in there?
        >
        > cheers,
        > justin
        >

         

      • waljaco
        If you want ethyl acetate you add acetic acid (vinegar). It reacts with the ethyl alcohol. Vodka distillers also add bicarbonate I guess to neutralize any
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 11, 2010
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          If you want ethyl acetate you add acetic acid (vinegar). It reacts with the ethyl alcohol. Vodka distillers also add bicarbonate I guess to neutralize any excess acid (?). But is ethyl acetate desirable?
          wal


          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, justin webster <mail@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi chaps,
          > I've been googling but not finding much info on the effect of bicarb on the likes of rum and whiskey.
          > I understand the benefits with respect to ethyl acetate but should I be concerned about losing or ruining some of the more desirable flavours?
          >
          > and I'm still not quite sure about quantities - should I aim for a specific pH? does 6 sound right?
          > and if so - should I be adjusting with citric acid in order to get a specific quantity of bicarb in there?
          >
          > cheers,
          > justin
          >
        • tgfoitwoods
          Justin, Isobutyl propionate is one of the rum oils, and for the life of me, I can t find the other. Sorry. Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller (evidently simpler
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 11, 2010
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            Justin,

            Isobutyl propionate is one of the rum oils, and for the life of me, I can't find the other. Sorry.

            Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller (evidently simpler than usual)

            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, justin webster <mail@...> wrote:
            >
            > thanks,
            > can you name the two esters you're talking about here?
            > is one Isobutyl Propionate?
            >
            > I actually went ahead and tried 4 desertspoons of bicarb in my spirit run and the results were pretty good.
            > admittedly it was a bit of a weird experimental batch which I was expecting to taste foul so I thought I'd just give it a crack.
            > I'll avoid it in my good stuff.
            >
            > cheers,
            > justin
            >
            > On 9/11/2010, at 9:39 AM, tgfoitwoods wrote:
            >
            > > Justin,
            > >
            > > Sorry to be so slow getting back to you.
            > >
            > > Firstly, I'd never use bicarb in any flavored-spirit run, like
            > > whisk(e)y, brandy or rum. What you have seen correctly as suppression of
            > > ethyl acetate formation is in fact uppression of all ester formation,
            > > and much of the flavor and/or nose of any good liquor is in its ester
            > > profile. In rum there are specifically 2 esters that together are called
            > > "rum oil", and using bicarb will lose you all that flavor.
            > >
            > > Second, I'd never use bicarb in a first run, a beer-stripping run, even
            > > if I were aiming for a tasteless spirit. The bicarb can raise the pH
            > > enough to make the nitrogen compounds in your wash, mostly from yeast
            > > nutrients, react wiht the copper in your still, especially in the
            > > column, to make Schweizer's reagent, a blue copper ammonia complex that
            > > colors your spirit blue. And no-one wnats to drink copper compounds.
            > >
            > > Only use bicarb on the second (or more) still run, so there can be no
            > > nitrogen compounds in the wash.
            > >
            > > Don't worry about pH in a low-wines run; chasing pH can make you crazy
            > > and mess up a good wash. I use about a quarter cup in a 15-gallon still
            > > charge. It's certainly overkill, but it hurts nothing, and is simply an
            > > excess reagent in the reaction.
            > >
            > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
            > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, justin webster <mail@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hi chaps,
            > > > I've been googling but not finding much info on the effect of bicarb
            > > on the likes of rum and whiskey.
            > > > I understand the benefits with respect to ethyl acetate but should I
            > > be concerned about losing or ruining some of the more desirable
            > > flavours?
            > > >
            > > > and I'm still not quite sure about quantities - should I aim for a
            > > specific pH? does 6 sound right?
            > > > and if so - should I be adjusting with citric acid in order to get a
            > > specific quantity of bicarb in there?
            > > >
            > > > cheers,
            > > > justin
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • tgfoitwoods
            Glen, That might be, but since the reactions are sped up at higher temperatures, I always figured most of what I want to happen will happen during heatup and
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 11, 2010
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              Glen,

              That might be, but since the reactions are sped up at higher temperatures, I always figured most of what I want to happen will happen during heatup and distillation. Of course, I've been wrong before.

              Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Glen - BetGear" <glen@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi,
              >
              >
              >
              > According to a post I've read somewhere (most likely home distiller), if
              > you're using bicarb, then it should be left in the low wines to infuse for
              > 3-4 days before running through the still.
              >
              >
              >
              > Cheers
              >
              >
              >
              > Glen.
              >
              >
              >
              >----snip----
            • jamesonbeam1
              Another oily alcohol (not really an ester) is Furfural found in the tails that gives rum some if its flavor, according to some souces I have read. JB. ...
              Message 6 of 8 , Nov 11, 2010
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                Another oily alcohol (not really an ester) is Furfural found in the
                tails that gives rum some if its flavor, according to some souces I have
                read.

                JB.


                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Justin,
                >
                > Isobutyl propionate is one of the rum oils, and for the life of me, I
                can't find the other. Sorry.
                >
                > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller (evidently simpler than usual)
                >
                > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, justin webster mail@ wrote:
                > >
                > > thanks,
                > > can you name the two esters you're talking about here?
                > > is one Isobutyl Propionate?
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