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Re: All Grain Mash plus sugar

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  • waljaco
    Grain is converted to fermentable glucose. Sugar (sucrose) contains glucose and fructose. The fructose does not give a grain character that is why breweries
    Message 1 of 5 , Oct 9, 2010
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      Grain is converted to fermentable glucose. Sugar (sucrose) contains glucose and fructose. The fructose does not give a grain character that is why breweries add glucose/dextrose to malt.
      wal

      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "JerryM" <jkmccull@...> wrote:
      >
      > Last year I did an all grain bourbon mash. I used feed corn and hand ground it. I used supplier ground malted barley and rye. I cooked the grains to covert the starches. I did not add any sugar.
      >
      > Took me 80+ hours, 80 lbs of grain and ended up with about a 3/4 gallon of some mighty fine 100 proof bourbon. I aged the product for about 3 months and I am happy to say have drank it all. I prefer it to store bought aged bourbon. Now I have a hankering for more.
      >
      > I would like to get a quality product with a bit less work.
      >
      > I was wondering- if I mash the grains the same way as I did last year, then add sugar to increase the alcohol content, will I ruin the flavors of the grains?
      >
    • jamesonbeam1
      Jerry, As Wal mentions, when enzymes break down the starches in grains, they produce maltose, a disaccharide which contains 2 molecules of glucose that the
      Message 2 of 5 , Oct 10, 2010
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        Jerry,

        As Wal mentions,  when enzymes break down the starches in grains, they produce maltose, a disaccharide which contains 2 molecules of glucose that the yeast can breakdown using invertase to digest and produce alchohol.

        When doing non-cook grain femetations with sugar like the UJSSM method,  if you use sucrose, this is a disaccharide containing 1 molecule of glucose and 1 molecule of fructose which the yeast must break down to ferment.

        If you look at the relative sweetness chart below,  fructose has a sweetness index of 173 versus glucosse with a sweetness index of 74.3.  While I started off using the UJSSM and it will produce a passing corn likker, there is still a hint of that sweet taste using cane sugars versus a true full grain mash corn whiskey.

        Now you could try using straight glucose (dextrose) or maltose, but it is way more expensive then cane sugars.

        JB.

        PS> frankly I think with 80 lbs. of grains, you should have ended up with more then just 3/4th of a gallon...

         

        Figure 2: Relative sweetness of sugars and sweeteners.


        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "JerryM" <jkmccull@...> wrote:
        >
        > Last year I did an all grain bourbon mash. I used feed corn and hand ground it. I used supplier ground malted barley and rye. I cooked the grains to covert the starches. I did not add any sugar.
        >
        > Took me 80+ hours, 80 lbs of grain and ended up with about a 3/4 gallon of some mighty fine 100 proof bourbon. I aged the product for about 3 months and I am happy to say have drank it all. I prefer it to store bought aged bourbon. Now I have a hankering for more.
        >
        > I would like to get a quality product with a bit less work.
        >
        > I was wondering- if I mash the grains the same way as I did last year, then add sugar to increase the alcohol content, will I ruin the flavors of the grains?
        >

      • Jerry McCullough
        I agree with you that I shloud have got more than 3/4 gallon. I had several problems as a direct result of my inexperience.  I think I will do better this
        Message 3 of 5 , Oct 11, 2010
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          I agree with you that I shloud have got more than 3/4 gallon. I had several problems as a direct result of my inexperience.  I think I will do better this time around.
           
          Lets say I do a good job of mashing the grains and I end up with for example a 5% potential ABV in the wort. If I were to add dextrose to bring the potential ABV up to 12%, what would I lose?
           
           
          --- On Sun, 10/10/10, jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:


          From: jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@...>
          Subject: [new_distillers] Re: All Grain Mash plus sugar
          To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Sunday, October 10, 2010, 9:14 AM


           




          Jerry,
          As Wal mentions,  when enzymes break down the starches in grains, they produce maltose, a disaccharide which contains 2 molecules of glucose that the yeast can breakdown using invertase to digest and produce alchohol.
          When doing non-cook grain femetations with sugar like the UJSSM method,  if you use sucrose, this is a disaccharide containing 1 molecule of glucose and 1 molecule of fructose which the yeast must break down to ferment.
          If you look at the relative sweetness chart below,  fructose has a sweetness index of 173 versus glucosse with a sweetness index of 74.3.  While I started off using the UJSSM and it will produce a passing corn likker, there is still a hint of that sweet taste using cane sugars versus a true full grain mash corn whiskey.
          Now you could try using straight glucose (dextrose) or maltose, but it is way more expensive then cane sugars.
          JB.
          PS> frankly I think with 80 lbs. of grains, you should have ended up with more then just 3/4th of a gallon...
           


          Figure 2: Relative sweetness of sugars and sweeteners.

          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "JerryM" <jkmccull@...> wrote:
          >
          > Last year I did an all grain bourbon mash. I used feed corn and hand ground it. I used supplier ground malted barley and rye. I cooked the grains to covert the starches. I did not add any sugar.
          >
          > Took me 80+ hours, 80 lbs of grain and ended up with about a 3/4 gallon of some mighty fine 100 proof bourbon. I aged the product for about 3 months and I am happy to say have drank it all. I prefer it to store bought aged bourbon. Now I have a hankering for more.
          >
          > I would like to get a quality product with a bit less work.
          >
          > I was wondering- if I mash the grains the same way as I did last year, then add sugar to increase the alcohol content, will I ruin the flavors of the grains?
          >
        • jamesonbeam1
          Jerry, A decent conversion of lets say about 75% to 80% of the starches should give you around a 7% ABV fermentation which is about average for an all grain
          Message 4 of 5 , Oct 12, 2010
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            Jerry,

            A decent conversion of lets say about 75% to 80% of the starches should give you around a 7% ABV fermentation which is about average for an all grain mash.  You could add some additional dextrose for more yield, but remember - making it too high in gravity will sacrifice some flavors.  Read through http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new_distillers/message/39403 for some pointers on mashing techniques.

            JB.


            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Jerry McCullough <jkmccull@...> wrote:
            >
            > I agree with you that I shloud have got more than 3/4 gallon. I had several problems as a direct result of my inexperience.  I think I will do better this time around.
            >  
            > Lets say I do a good job of mashing the grains and I end up with for example a 5% potential ABV in the wort. If I were to add dextrose to bring the potential ABV up to 12%, what would I lose?

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