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Re: Flake vs Corn

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  • jamesonbeam1
    Todd, The key to working with cracked corn is to cook it at a higher temp then the striking temp so as to gelatinize the corn and starches first before adding
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 29, 2010
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      Todd,

      The key to working with cracked corn is to cook it at a higher temp then the striking temp so as to gelatinize the corn and starches first before adding your malted barley when the temp gets around 151F to 160F.   It will convert starches to sugars at this temp level.  If you go above 170F it will distroy the enzyme capabilities.  So its not a question of converting at higher temps.

      There are many good pointers in Tony's site on the grains  and mashing section - see http://www.homedistiller.org/wash-grain.htm#recipes .  I would do some homework and read through this section.  Also ZB is well versed at all grain mashing an might give a few hints.

      JB.

      PS>   a couple of good pointers are: 

      Mashing

      This step converts the remaining starches to sugars. Heat the grain (and malt or amalyse) to 62-63 °C for 45 min to 1 hour (stir occasionally), using 4.5L water per kg grain, then strain out the grains (use a kitchen sieve), keep the liquid (the wort/mash). Some methods involve bringing it to temperature, then holding it there for 2 hours in a big pot etc in the oven. When straining out the grains, rinse them several times with a small portion of the wort to fully wash them clean. Take care when heating the wort - it will easily boil over, quickly getting you banished from the kitchen. Watch it carefully, and enjoy the aroma.

      When due to separate the grains from the liquid (lautering), raise the temperature to 75-77 °C. At this "mash-off" temperature the wort viscosity is favourable for quick & complete separation, enzymes are mainly inactive, and bacterial action is precluded.

      It can be a differcult exercise to rinse the grains - getting them to soak through a collander or using a brewers "false bottomed" pail. John V writes ..

        Herewith a tip for those stuck with draining mash. The ideal item for this is the nylon paint straining bags sold at paint supplies stores. It comes in two sizes, the larger ones fits over an average-sized kitchenpan. I now use them for straining mash; my wife 'borrow' them for straining berry juice for jams and jellies. They clean very easily, just hold under running water.

      To which Tony adds ...

        The nylon paint straining bags work well for me as well. I prefer using them over the top of large food grade plastic pails (available free at restaurants or deli's). The deep pail gives lots of capacity for strained liquid and leaving it drain overnight recovers prety much all of the available liquid from the fruit or mash. When the mash is too heavy the strainer elastic can't hold the weight, in this case use a stainless hose clamp (band clamp)to secure the strainer to the top of the pail. If you can't find a large enough clamp to fit around the bucket two smaller clamps can be easily assembled end to end and they are less expensive than one large one. I paid $1.70 Cdn. for a pair of small clamps a few days ago.


      There are two enzymes which convert the starches to sugars & dextrins. Beta-amaylase "chops" the long starch molecules in half into shorter chains, whereas Alpha-amaylase "breaks off" the branches in the starch structure. Working together they do a great job, and convert 60-80% of the available starch to fermentable sugars.

      Of the malted barleys, their enzyme potency is (in decreasing activity) 6 Row by a country mile, then 2 Row, Pilsner malts, Lager malts, Ale malts then Viennas and then Munichs.

      From
      http://realbeer.com/jjpalmer/ch14.html

        Starch Conversion / Saccharification Rest
        In this stage the diastatic enzymes start acting on the starches, breaking them up into sugars (hence the term saccharification). One group, the amylases, are enzymes that work on the more complex starches and sugars. The two main amylases are Alpha and Beta. Alpha works by breaking up long, branched starch chains at the branch points, leaving behind a variety of straight chain starches and dextrin-type sugars. The reduction of these large branched chains reduces the viscosity and "liquifies" the mash. Beta amylase works by separating these straight chains into fermentable maltose sugar units.

      From http://www.howtobrew.com/

        Beta amylase works by hydrolyzing the straight chain bonds, but it can only work on "twig" ends of the chain, not the "root" end. It can only remove one (maltose) sugar unit at a time, so on amylose, it works sequentially. (A maltose unit is composed of two glucose units, by the way.) On an amylopectin, there are many ends available, and it can remove a lot of maltose very efficaciously (like a hedge trimmer). However, probably due to its size/structure, beta cannot get close to the branch joints. It will stop working about 3 glucoses away from a branch joint, leaving behind a "beta amylase limit dextrin."

        Alpha amylase also works by hydrolyzing the straight chain bonds, but it can attack them randomly, much as you can with a pair of clippers. Alpha amylase is instrumental in breaking up large amylopectins into smaller amylopectins and amyloses, creating more ends for beta amylase to work on. Alpha is able to get within one glucose unit of a amylopectin branch and it leaves behind an "alpha amylase limit dextrin."


      Alpha-amylase works best between 65-67 °C, and dies within 2 hours at 67 °C.
      Beta-amylase works best between 52-62 °C, deactivating within 40min at 65 °C.

      The reaction taking place during mashing is one of hydrolysis and all the components of the grain particle are subject to varying degrees of changes. While the conversion of starch results mainly in fermentable sugars, the degradation products of the proteins and other components will ferment into fusel oils, aldehydes, esters and acids, which are grouped under the generic title of "cogeners". The composition and concentration of these cogeners determine the quality and characteristics of a whiskey. Thus corn, with its high starch content, provides the source of alcohol, while rye, with its high protein content, provides the "flavour". The variation of the respective proportions of corn and rye leads to different mash bills which exhibit different levels of flavour. The malt, with its unique function (to provide the amalyse to break down the starch), always occurs at a constant predetermined percentage, typically 10-12% of the grain bill.

      Reese answers some common questions ...


        Q1) I have thought about using a different corn - but would the chopped or cracked corn not behave in the same way as flaked corn? Would it not absorb the water in the same way, after all it is still corn starch?
        It absorbs water, yes, but it only swells and remains relatively intact. Flaked corn, on the other hand, is corn that has been ground, rolled and then cut into flakes. When it absorbs water, it reverts back to its finely-ground state, hence your porridge problem. Chopped or cracked corn, while it absorbs water, will do so slowly, so you need to cook it longer and at a higher temperature. I kept my water at boiling through out the whole cooking process.
        Q2) Also, I take it that you suspend the boiled cracked corn inside a feed bag during fermentation?
        Yes. I have a large brewers bag that fits over the opening of my fermentation bucket, reaching to its bottom. After filling the fermentation bucket with sugar water, I line the bucket with the bag, cook the corn/malt and then simply pour it (and the excess water in which it was cooked) in. Then I tie the bag off with a loose overhand knot and put the lid on the bucket while it cools. It remains in the bucket and tied during the whole fermentation process. Afterwards, the bag will be emptied and washed for use in my next go.
        Q3) How do you get the wort off the fermented corn - squeezing with your hands? Some sort of press? A lauter vat/set-up?
        It should be possible to just simply rinse the bag with warm water, capturing what drains through. A good squeezing might help, but what you would get off wouldn't match the quantities of wort already suspended in the remainder of your now-brewer-bag-free fermentation bucket. The excess water that was available after cooking the corn/malt mix (and the corn's action on the wort while in the bucket) should have already contained enough starchy goodness to flavor the sugar-water wort base well enough.

      Scott writes ...

        I'm no expert, but I do know from reading and personal experience that it's best to boil corn for 30 or 40 minutes to soften it up and gelatinize the starches (unless it's flaked corn, which has already been gelatinized). Make sure you use a stockpot that won't scorch the corn (e.g. thick stainless with a copper or aluminum bottom -- expensive! Or, like me, a non-stick aluminum pot -- less expensive). If you scorch the corn, your hooch will have a nasty stink (personal experience). If you don't free up the corn starches with a boil, your yield will be significantly lower. 1.040 is actually pretty good condsidering your mashing method, the amount of grain and the volume of water you used. You should be able to get closer to 1.060 if you add something like the enzyme gluco-amylase to the mash or wash.

        Why don't you get as much as with a sugar wash? Grain is about 50% starch, and you're never going to convert 100% of that to fermentable sugars. If you convert 75%, you're doing well.

      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <toddweiss@...> wrote:>

      >
      > > But again, while the UJSSSM method is a easy beginners way to start off,
      > > there is no substitution for using a full grain mash bill which would
      > > include 51% corn, rye or wheat and malted barley to make a true corn
      > > whiskey the way the big boys do it..... [;)]
      > >
      > > JB.
      >
      > I have never done a full grain mash bill using corn. I know it converts at a higher temp than barley (as do wheat and rye). How would you do a mixed grain mash like this?
      >
      > Thanks,
      > T.
      >

    • Royce Thigpen
      I have read the articles on Mr. Tony s site.  As a beginner, I really don t understand it all, but from what you are saying, I gather that I can just regular
      Message 2 of 18 , Sep 29, 2010
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        I have read the articles on Mr. Tony's site.  As a beginner, I really don't understand it all, but from what you are saying, I gather that I can just regular old corn, just cook it longer and at a higher temp.  Correct?  I don't think I am ready for an all grain mash, but it will take me some figuring out before I start.


        From: jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@...>
        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wed, September 29, 2010 9:47:34 AM
        Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Flake vs Corn

         

        Todd,

        The key to working with cracked corn is to cook it at a higher temp then the striking temp so as to gelatinize the corn and starches first before adding your malted barley when the temp gets around 151F to 160F.   It will convert starches to sugars at this temp level.  If you go above 170F it will distroy the enzyme capabilities.  So its not a question of converting at higher temps.

        There are many good pointers in Tony's site on the grains  and mashing section - see http://www.homedistiller.org/wash-grain.htm#recipes .  I would do some homework and read through this section.  Also ZB is well versed at all grain mashing an might give a few hints.

        JB.

        PS>   a couple of good pointers are: 

        Mashing

        This step converts the remaining starches to sugars. Heat the grain (and malt or amalyse) to 62-63 °C for 45 min to 1 hour (stir occasionally), using 4.5L water per kg grain, then strain out the grains (use a kitchen sieve), keep the liquid (the wort/mash). Some methods involve bringing it to temperature, then holding it there for 2 hours in a big pot etc in the oven. When straining out the grains, rinse them several times with a small portion of the wort to fully wash them clean. Take care when heating the wort - it will easily boil over, quickly getting you banished from the kitchen. Watch it carefully, and enjoy the aroma.

        When due to separate the grains from the liquid (lautering), raise the temperature to 75-77 °C. At this "mash-off" temperature the wort viscosity is favourable for quick & complete separation, enzymes are mainly inactive, and bacterial action is precluded.

        It can be a differcult exercise to rinse the grains - getting them to soak through a collander or using a brewers "false bottomed" pail. John V writes ..

          Herewith a tip for those stuck with draining mash. The ideal item for this is the nylon paint straining bags sold at paint supplies stores. It comes in two sizes, the larger ones fits over an average-sized kitchenpan. I now use them for straining mash; my wife 'borrow' them for straining berry juice for jams and jellies. They clean very easily, just hold under running water.

        To which Tony adds ...

          The nylon paint straining bags work well for me as well. I prefer using them over the top of large food grade plastic pails (available free at restaurants or deli's). The deep pail gives lots of capacity for strained liquid and leaving it drain overnight recovers prety much all of the available liquid from the fruit or mash. When the mash is too heavy the strainer elastic can't hold the weight, in this case use a stainless hose clamp (band clamp)to secure the strainer to the top of the pail. If you can't find a large enough clamp to fit around the bucket two smaller clamps can be easily assembled end to end and they are less expensive than one large one. I paid $1.70 Cdn. for a pair of small clamps a few days ago.


        There are two enzymes which convert the starches to sugars & dextrins. Beta-amaylase "chops" the long starch molecules in half into shorter chains, whereas Alpha-amaylase "breaks off" the branches in the starch structure. Working together they do a great job, and convert 60-80% of the available starch to fermentable sugars.

        Of the malted barleys, their enzyme potency is (in decreasing activity) 6 Row by a country mile, then 2 Row, Pilsner malts, Lager malts, Ale malts then Viennas and then Munichs.

        From
        http://realbeer.com/jjpalmer/ch14.html

          Starch Conversion / Saccharification Rest
          In this stage the diastatic enzymes start acting on the starches, breaking them up into sugars (hence the term saccharification). One group, the amylases, are enzymes that work on the more complex starches and sugars. The two main amylases are Alpha and Beta. Alpha works by breaking up long, branched starch chains at the branch points, leaving behind a variety of straight chain starches and dextrin-type sugars. The reduction of these large branched chains reduces the viscosity and "liquifies" the mash. Beta amylase works by separating these straight chains into fermentable maltose sugar units.

        From http://www.howtobrew.com/

          Beta amylase works by hydrolyzing the straight chain bonds, but it can only work on "twig" ends of the chain, not the "root" end. It can only remove one (maltose) sugar unit at a time, so on amylose, it works sequentially. (A maltose unit is composed of two glucose units, by the way.) On an amylopectin, there are many ends available, and it can remove a lot of maltose very efficaciously (like a hedge trimmer). However, probably due to its size/structure, beta cannot get close to the branch joints. It will stop working about 3 glucoses away from a branch joint, leaving behind a "beta amylase limit dextrin."

          Alpha amylase also works by hydrolyzing the straight chain bonds, but it can attack them randomly, much as you can with a pair of clippers. Alpha amylase is instrumental in breaking up large amylopectins into smaller amylopectins and amyloses, creating more ends for beta amylase to work on. Alpha is able to get within one glucose unit of a amylopectin branch and it leaves behind an "alpha amylase limit dextrin."


        Alpha-amylase works best between 65-67 °C, and dies within 2 hours at 67 °C.
        Beta-amylase works best between 52-62 °C, deactivating within 40min at 65 °C.

        The reaction taking place during mashing is one of hydrolysis and all the components of the grain particle are subject to varying degrees of changes. While the conversion of starch results mainly in fermentable sugars, the degradation products of the proteins and other components will ferment into fusel oils, aldehydes, esters and acids, which are grouped under the generic title of "cogeners". The composition and concentration of these cogeners determine the quality and characteristics of a whiskey. Thus corn, with its high starch content, provides the source of alcohol, while rye, with its high protein content, provides the "flavour". The variation of the respective proportions of corn and rye leads to different mash bills which exhibit different levels of flavour. The malt, with its unique function (to provide the amalyse to break down the starch), always occurs at a constant predetermined percentage, typically 10-12% of the grain bill.

        Reese answers some common questions ...


          Q1) I have thought about using a different corn - but would the chopped or cracked corn not behave in the same way as flaked corn? Would it not absorb the water in the same way, after all it is still corn starch?
          It absorbs water, yes, but it only swells and remains relatively intact. Flaked corn, on the other hand, is corn that has been ground, rolled and then cut into flakes. When it absorbs water, it reverts back to its finely-ground state, hence your porridge problem. Chopped or cracked corn, while it absorbs water, will do so slowly, so you need to cook it longer and at a higher temperature. I kept my water at boiling through out the whole cooking process.
          Q2) Also, I take it that you suspend the boiled cracked corn inside a feed bag during fermentation?
          Yes. I have a large brewers bag that fits over the opening of my fermentation bucket, reaching to its bottom. After filling the fermentation bucket with sugar water, I line the bucket with the bag, cook the corn/malt and then simply pour it (and the excess water in which it was cooked) in. Then I tie the bag off with a loose overhand knot and put the lid on the bucket while it cools. It remains in the bucket and tied during the whole fermentation process. Afterwards, the bag will be emptied and washed for use in my next go.
          Q3) How do you get the wort off the fermented corn - squeezing with your hands? Some sort of press? A lauter vat/set-up?
          It should be possible to just simply rinse the bag with warm water, capturing what drains through. A good squeezing might help, but what you would get off wouldn't match the quantities of wort already suspended in the remainder of your now-brewer-bag-free fermentation bucket. The excess water that was available after cooking the corn/malt mix (and the corn's action on the wort while in the bucket) should have already contained enough starchy goodness to flavor the sugar-water wort base well enough.

        Scott writes ...

          I'm no expert, but I do know from reading and personal experience that it's best to boil corn for 30 or 40 minutes to soften it up and gelatinize the starches (unless it's flaked corn, which has already been gelatinized). Make sure you use a stockpot that won't scorch the corn (e.g. thick stainless with a copper or aluminum bottom -- expensive! Or, like me, a non-stick aluminum pot -- less expensive). If you scorch the corn, your hooch will have a nasty stink (personal experience). If you don't free up the corn starches with a boil, your yield will be significantly lower. 1.040 is actually pretty good condsidering your mashing method, the amount of grain and the volume of water you used. You should be able to get closer to 1.060 if you add something like the enzyme gluco-amylase to the mash or wash.

          Why don't you get as much as with a sugar wash? Grain is about 50% starch, and you're never going to convert 100% of that to fermentable sugars. If you convert 75%, you're doing well.

        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <toddweiss@...> wrote:>

        >
        > > But again, while the UJSSSM method is a easy beginners way to start off,
        > > there is no substitution for using a full grain mash bill which would
        > > include 51% corn, rye or wheat and malted barley to make a true corn
        > > whiskey the way the big boys do it..... [;)]
        > >
        > > JB.
        >
        > I have never done a full grain mash bill using corn. I know it converts at a higher temp than barley (as do wheat and rye). How would you do a mixed grain mash like this?
        >
        > Thanks,
        > T.
        >


      • jamesonbeam1
        Royce, Bout the only way your going to learn is to jump in and try it. Might be a failure at first, but most learning is done from failures (execpt sky
        Message 3 of 18 , Sep 29, 2010
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          Royce,

          Bout the only way your going to learn is to jump in and try it.  Might be a failure at first, but most learning is done from failures (execpt sky diving) and first attempts - remember, you will never learn to sky dive unless you jump out of the airplane first lol :( (gulp)....

          Just try a simple mash at first - forget the rye or wheat and just try about 9 lbs. of cracked corn and a pound or so of malted 6 row barley in about 5 gallons of water (one of the recipes say 4.5 liters of water per kilogram of grains - usually at least 10 to 12% is malted barley, but never hurts to add a bit more).  Soak the corn and let it simmer for about an hour till it gets soft and mushy.  Then let the temp (using a confectioners themometer or digital) get to around 151 to 160F and adjust your heat so it stays at that temp.  Add your malted barley and let it go thru the Saccharification Rest for about an hour or more until the iodine test (see Tony's instructions) does not turn blackish brown.

          Using a straining bag as he states, let the liquids drain overnight (called lautering) and sparge it see:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lautering from the grains or just ferment it on the grain, then lauter.  Expect only about a 7% or so ABV since corn contains only about 50 to 60% starch and not all of it will be converted to maltose sugars.

          Again, the only way to learn is to just jump in (or out) and try it.

          JB.


          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@...> wrote:
          >
          > I have read the articles on Mr. Tony's site.  As a beginner, I really don't
          > understand it all, but from what you are saying, I gather that I can just
          > regular old corn, just cook it longer and at a higher temp.  Correct?  I don't
          > think I am ready for an all grain mash, but it will take me some figuring out
          > before I start.

        • jamesonbeam1
          Sidenote: Using some of Gert Strand s Whiskey yeast with AG or yeast with some crushed up Beano tablets will improve the starch to sugar conversions during the
          Message 4 of 18 , Sep 29, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Sidenote:

            Using some of Gert Strand's Whiskey yeast with AG or yeast with some
            crushed up Beano tablets will improve the starch to sugar conversions
            during the fermentation process if your fermenting on the grain.

            JB.


            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...>
            wrote:
            >
            >
            > Royce,
            >
            > Bout the only way your going to learn is to jump in and try it. Might
            > be a failure at first, but most learning is done from failures (execpt
            > sky diving) and first attempts - remember, you will never learn to sky
            > dive unless you jump out of the airplane first lol [:(] (gulp)....
            >
            > Just try a simple mash at first - forget the rye or wheat and just try
            > about 9 lbs. of cracked corn and a pound or so of malted 6 row barley
            in
            > about 5 gallons of water (one of the recipes say 4.5 liters of water
            per
            > kilogram of grains - usually at least 10 to 12% is malted barley, but
            > never hurts to add a bit more). Soak the corn and let it simmer for
            > about an hour till it gets soft and mushy. Then let the temp (using a
            > confectioners themometer or digital) get to around 151 to 160F and
            > adjust your heat so it stays at that temp. Add your malted barley and
            > let it go thru the Saccharification Rest for about an hour or more
            until
            > the iodine test (see Tony's instructions) does not turn blackish
            brown.
            >
            > Using a straining bag as he states, let the liquids drain overnight
            > (called lautering) and sparge it see:
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lautering
            > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lautering> from the grains or just
            > ferment it on the grain, then lauter. Expect only about a 7% or so ABV
            > since corn contains only about 50 to 60% starch and not all of it will
            > be converted to maltose sugars.
            >
            > Again, the only way to learn is to just jump in (or out) and try it.
            >
            > JB.
          • Royce Thigpen
            I just happen to have some malted barley, about three or four pounds, and a bunch of corn.  As you say, just soak it for a while and then heat it.  Does it
            Message 5 of 18 , Sep 29, 2010
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              I just happen to have some malted barley, about three or four pounds, and a bunch of corn.  As you say, just soak it for a while and then heat it.  Does it get soft during soaking or heating?


              From: jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@...>
              To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, September 29, 2010 2:49:45 PM
              Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Flake vs Corn

               


              Sidenote:

              Using some of Gert Strand's Whiskey yeast with AG or yeast with some
              crushed up Beano tablets will improve the starch to sugar conversions
              during the fermentation process if your fermenting on the grain.

              JB.

              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...>
              wrote:

              >
              >
              > Royce,
              >
              > Bout the only way your going to learn is to jump in and try it. Might
              > be a failure at first, but most learning is done from failures (execpt
              > sky diving) and first attempts - remember, you will never learn to sky
              > dive unless you jump out of the airplane first lol [:(] (gulp)....
              >
              > Just try a simple mash at first - forget the rye or wheat and just try
              > about 9 lbs. of cracked corn and a pound or so of
              malted 6 row barley
              in
              > about 5 gallons of water (one of the recipes say 4.5 liters of water
              per
              > kilogram of grains - usually at least 10 to 12% is malted barley, but
              > never hurts to add a bit more). Soak the corn and let it simmer for
              > about an hour till it gets soft and mushy. Then let the temp (using a
              > confectioners themometer or digital) get to around 151 to 160F and
              > adjust your heat so it stays at that temp. Add your malted barley and
              > let it go thru the Saccharification Rest for about an hour or more
              until
              > the iodine test (see Tony's instructions) does not turn blackish
              brown.
              >
              > Using a straining bag as he states, let the liquids drain overnight
              > (called lautering) and sparge it see:
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lautering
              > <
              rel=nofollow>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lautering> from the grains or just
              > ferment it on the grain, then lauter. Expect only about a 7% or so ABV
              > since corn contains only about 50 to 60% starch and not all of it will
              > be converted to maltose sugars.
              >
              > Again, the only way to learn is to just jump in (or out) and try it.
              >
              > JB.


            • rosnekcaj
              There are two types of corn: feed corn and sweet corn Feed corn is the type we grow to use for animal feed. Sweet corn is the type of corn we use for human
              Message 6 of 18 , Sep 29, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                There are two types of corn: feed corn and sweet corn
                Feed corn is the type we grow to use for animal feed.
                Sweet corn is the type of corn we use for human consumption. Some people even call it sugar corn.
                I would tend to think that sweet corn would be better for making alcohol because it appearently has more sugar in it and is sweeter.
                However maybe it doesn't matter since in the process the carbohydrate is converted to sugar.
                Any comments?

                rosnekcaj

                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@...> wrote:
                >
                > I just happen to have some malted barley, about three or four pounds, and a
                > bunch of corn.  As you say, just soak it for a while and then heat it.  Does it
                > get soft during soaking or heating?
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@...>
                > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Wed, September 29, 2010 2:49:45 PM
                > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Flake vs Corn
                >
                >  
                >
                > Sidenote:
                >
                > Using some of Gert Strand's Whiskey yeast with AG or yeast with some
                > crushed up Beano tablets will improve the starch to sugar conversions
                > during the fermentation process if your fermenting on the grain.
                >
                > JB.
                >
                > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > Royce,
                > >
                > > Bout the only way your going to learn is to jump in and try it. Might
                > > be a failure at first, but most learning is done from failures (execpt
                > > sky diving) and first attempts - remember, you will never learn to sky
                > > dive unless you jump out of the airplane first lol [:(] (gulp)....
                > >
                > > Just try a simple mash at first - forget the rye or wheat and just try
                > > about 9 lbs. of cracked corn and a pound or so of malted 6 row barley
                > in
                > > about 5 gallons of water (one of the recipes say 4.5 liters of water
                > per
                > > kilogram of grains - usually at least 10 to 12% is malted barley, but
                > > never hurts to add a bit more). Soak the corn and let it simmer for
                > > about an hour till it gets soft and mushy. Then let the temp (using a
                > > confectioners themometer or digital) get to around 151 to 160F and
                > > adjust your heat so it stays at that temp. Add your malted barley and
                > > let it go thru the Saccharification Rest for about an hour or more
                > until
                > > the iodine test (see Tony's instructions) does not turn blackish
                > brown.
                > >
                > > Using a straining bag as he states, let the liquids drain overnight
                > > (called lautering) and sparge it see:
                > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lautering
                > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lautering> from the grains or just
                > > ferment it on the grain, then lauter. Expect only about a 7% or so ABV
                > > since corn contains only about 50 to 60% starch and not all of it will
                > > be converted to maltose sugars.
                > >
                > > Again, the only way to learn is to just jump in (or out) and try it.
                > >
                > > JB.
                >
              • jamesonbeam1
                Yup, First step is to soak for about an hour, then put on simmer and get it nice and mushy to gelentinize the starches. The key to sugar conversion is the
                Message 7 of 18 , Sep 29, 2010
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                  Yup,

                  First step is to soak for about an hour, then put on simmer and get it
                  nice and mushy to gelentinize the starches. The key to sugar conversion
                  is the amount of starches in the corn regardless of whether it is sweet
                  corn or animal feed corn as Ros asked about. This should be in the
                  ingredients section on the package.

                  JB.


                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > I just happen to have some malted barley, about three or four pounds,
                  and a
                  > bunch of corn. As you say, just soak it for a while and then heat
                  it. Does it
                  > get soft during soaking or heating?
                • Royce Thigpen
                  My container is a bucket right off the combine that was picking the corn. I know this is field corn, not what is called sweet corn.  However, now the corn is
                  Message 8 of 18 , Sep 30, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    My container is a bucket right off the combine that was picking the corn. I know this is field corn, not what is called sweet corn.  However, now the corn is not the problem.  I looked last night at my barley.  I bought it a while back and was going to remember what it was supposed to be.  The container just says 2 roll on it.  I don't know if it is malted or what.  For the  most part I would think malted but I don't know.  (A mind is a terrible thing to waste)  Is there a way to tell or is all barley from a brew shop malted?


                    From: jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@...>
                    To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wed, September 29, 2010 6:50:05 PM
                    Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Flake vs Corn

                     


                    Yup,

                    First step is to soak for about an hour, then put on simmer and get it
                    nice and mushy to gelentinize the starches. The key to sugar conversion
                    is the amount of starches in the corn regardless of whether it is sweet
                    corn or animal feed corn as Ros asked about. This should be in the
                    ingredients section on the package.

                    JB.

                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@...>
                    wrote:

                    >
                    > I just happen to have some malted barley, about three or four pounds,
                    and a
                    > bunch of corn. As you say, just soak it for a while and then heat
                    it. Does it
                    > get soft during soaking or heating?


                  • jamesonbeam1
                    Oh boy LOL, Looks like we are off to a good start. Barley can be bought malted or unmalted from a brew shop (though its usually malted). The process of
                    Message 9 of 18 , Sep 30, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment

                      Oh boy LOL,

                      Looks like we are off to a good start.  Barley can be bought malted or unmalted from a brew shop (though its usually malted).  The process of malting entails letting the barley seeds germinate and develop an acrospire (or developing plant embryo), then drying it by heat on a wooden floor.  Unmalted barley will look like a full grain that has not sprouted.  Below are a couple of pictures of malted vs unmalted barley.

                      Unless someone has a better idea, I would test the diastatic power (enzyme capability to convert starch to sugar) by taking a 1/4 cup of your barley and letting it sit in a cup or 2 of 150 to 160F water for about an hour (trying to keep it at that temp).

                      Then take some reugular medical iodine and add a few drops to a TBs. of the liquid.  If the iodine turns dark bluish black, then no starches have been converted to sugars.  If it stays a yellowish orange, then your barley has diastatic power and may be used.

                      JB.

                      View Image

                      Unmalted Barley - click to enlarge

                       

                      View Image

                      Malted Barley - click to enlarge.


                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > My container is a bucket right off the combine that was picking the corn. I know
                      > this is field corn, not what is called sweet corn.  However, now the corn is not
                      > the problem.  I looked last night at my barley.  I bought it a while back and
                      > was going to remember what it was supposed to be.  The container just says 2
                      > roll on it.  I don't know if it is malted or what.  For the  most part I would
                      > think malted but I don't know.  (A mind is a terrible thing to waste)  Is there
                      > a way to tell or is all barley from a brew shop malted?

                      > ________________________________
                      > From: jamesonbeam1 jamesonbeam1@...
                      > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Wed, September 29, 2010 6:50:05 PM
                      > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Flake vs Corn
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      > Yup,
                      >
                      > First step is to soak for about an hour, then put on simmer and get it
                      > nice and mushy to gelentinize the starches. The key to sugar conversion
                      > is the amount of starches in the corn regardless of whether it is sweet
                      > corn or animal feed corn as Ros asked about. This should be in the
                      > ingredients section on the package.
                      >
                      > JB.

                    • Royce Thigpen
                      If I can t determine by comparing the pictures, I will try what is suggested below.  If I get back to the brew shop soon, I will buy some malted and compare
                      Message 10 of 18 , Sep 30, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        If I can't determine by comparing the pictures, I will try what is suggested below.  If I get back to the brew shop soon, I will buy some malted and compare like that.  I have had it long enough to forget, I guess I can wait a little longer.


                        From: jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@...>
                        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thu, September 30, 2010 9:57:26 AM
                        Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Flake vs Corn

                         

                        Oh boy LOL,

                        Looks like we are off to a good start.  Barley can be bought malted or unmalted from a brew shop (though its usually malted).  The process of malting entails letting the barley seeds germinate and develop an acrospire (or developing plant embryo), then drying it by heat on a wooden floor.  Unmalted barley will look like a full grain that has not sprouted.  Below are a couple of pictures of malted vs unmalted barley.

                        Unless someone has a better idea, I would test the diastatic power (enzyme capability to convert starch to sugar) by taking a 1/4 cup of your barley and letting it sit in a cup or 2 of 150 to 160F water for about an hour (trying to keep it at that temp).

                        Then take some reugular medical iodine and add a few drops to a TBs. of the liquid.  If the iodine turns dark bluish black, then no starches have been converted to sugars.  If it stays a yellowish orange, then your barley has diastatic power and may be used.

                        JB.

                        View Image

                        Unmalted Barley - click to enlarge

                         

                        View Image

                        Malted Barley - click to enlarge.


                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > My container is a bucket right off the combine that was picking the corn. I know
                        > this is field corn, not what is called sweet corn.  However, now the corn is not
                        > the problem.  I looked last night at my barley.  I bought it a while back and
                        > was going to remember what it was supposed to be.  The container just says 2
                        > roll on it.  I don't know if it is malted or what.  For the  most part I would
                        > think malted but I don't know.  (A mind is a terrible thing to waste)  Is there
                        > a way to tell or is all barley from a brew shop malted?

                        > ________________________________
                        > From: jamesonbeam1 jamesonbeam1@...
                        > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Wed, September 29, 2010 6:50:05 PM
                        > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Flake vs Corn
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        > Yup,
                        >
                        > First step is to soak for about an hour, then put on simmer and get it
                        > nice and mushy to gelentinize the starches. The key to sugar conversion
                        > is the amount of starches in the corn regardless of whether it is sweet
                        > corn or animal feed corn as Ros asked about. This should be in the
                        > ingredients section on the package.
                        >
                        > JB.


                      • Ric Cunningham
                        Take a sample with you to the shop and compare. The brew shop owner or staff should be able to set you right up. ... Take a sample with you to the shop and
                        Message 11 of 18 , Sep 30, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Take a sample with you to the shop and compare. The brew shop owner or staff should be able to set you right up. 

                          On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 10:35 AM, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@...> wrote:
                           

                          If I can't determine by comparing the pictures, I will try what is suggested below.  If I get back to the brew shop soon, I will buy some malted and compare like that.  I have had it long enough to forget, I guess I can wait a little longer.


                          From: jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@...>
                          Sent: Thu, September 30, 2010 9:57:26 AM

                          Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Flake vs Corn

                           

                          Oh boy LOL,

                          Looks like we are off to a good start.  Barley can be bought malted or unmalted from a brew shop (though its usually malted).  The process of malting entails letting the barley seeds germinate and develop an acrospire (or developing plant embryo), then drying it by heat on a wooden floor.  Unmalted barley will look like a full grain that has not sprouted.  Below are a couple of pictures of malted vs unmalted barley.

                          Unless someone has a better idea, I would test the diastatic power (enzyme capability to convert starch to sugar) by taking a 1/4 cup of your barley and letting it sit in a cup or 2 of 150 to 160F water for about an hour (trying to keep it at that temp).

                          Then take some reugular medical iodine and add a few drops to a TBs. of the liquid.  If the iodine turns dark bluish black, then no starches have been converted to sugars.  If it stays a yellowish orange, then your barley has diastatic power and may be used.

                          JB.

                          View Image

                          Unmalted Barley - click to enlarge

                           

                          View Image

                          Malted Barley - click to enlarge.


                          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > My container is a bucket right off the combine that was picking the corn. I know
                          > this is field corn, not what is called sweet corn.  However, now the corn is not
                          > the problem.  I looked last night at my barley.  I bought it a while back and
                          > was going to remember what it was supposed to be.  The container just says 2
                          > roll on it.  I don't know if it is malted or what.  For the  most part I would
                          > think malted but I don't know.  (A mind is a terrible thing to waste)  Is there
                          > a way to tell or is all barley from a brew shop malted?

                          > ________________________________
                          > From: jamesonbeam1 jamesonbeam1@...
                          > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Wed, September 29, 2010 6:50:05 PM
                          > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Flake vs Corn
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          > Yup,
                          >
                          > First step is to soak for about an hour, then put on simmer and get it
                          > nice and mushy to gelentinize the starches. The key to sugar conversion
                          > is the amount of starches in the corn regardless of whether it is sweet
                          > corn or animal feed corn as Ros asked about. This should be in the
                          > ingredients section on the package.
                          >
                          > JB.



                        • tgfoitwoods
                          Jim and Royce, For the first-time grain-masher, may I suggest only malted barley? Not only does it lauter and sparge like a dream (corn is a relative
                          Message 12 of 18 , Sep 30, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Jim and Royce,

                            For the first-time grain-masher, may I suggest only malted barley? Not only does it lauter and sparge like a dream (corn is a relative nightmare), but it's what allgrain beer-makers do, and the information and material support out there is vast. Of course, you're not making bourbon; it's only a single-malt whisk(e)y like Irish or Scotch, but some of us can live with that. (snicker)

                            After you have a successful mashing of barley under your belt, then you can go on to harder stuff, so nothing lost.

                            Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Royce,
                            >
                            > Bout the only way your going to learn is to jump in and try it. Might
                            > be a failure at first, but most learning is done from failures (execpt
                            > sky diving) and first attempts - remember, you will never learn to sky
                            > dive unless you jump out of the airplane first lol [:(] (gulp)....
                            >
                            > Just try a simple mash at first - forget the rye or wheat and just try
                            > about 9 lbs. of cracked corn and a pound or so of malted 6 row barley in
                            > about 5 gallons of water (one of the recipes say 4.5 liters of water per
                            > kilogram of grains - usually at least 10 to 12% is malted barley, but
                            > never hurts to add a bit more). Soak the corn and let it simmer for
                            > about an hour till it gets soft and mushy. Then let the temp (using a
                            > confectioners themometer or digital) get to around 151 to 160F and
                            > adjust your heat so it stays at that temp. Add your malted barley and
                            > let it go thru the Saccharification Rest for about an hour or more until
                            > the iodine test (see Tony's instructions) does not turn blackish brown.
                            >
                            > Using a straining bag as he states, let the liquids drain overnight
                            > (called lautering) and sparge it see:
                            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lautering
                            > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lautering> from the grains or just
                            > ferment it on the grain, then lauter. Expect only about a 7% or so ABV
                            > since corn contains only about 50 to 60% starch and not all of it will
                            > be converted to maltose sugars.
                            >
                            > Again, the only way to learn is to just jump in (or out) and try it.
                            >
                            > JB.
                            >
                            >
                            ----snip---
                          • tgfoitwoods
                            Royce, Eat it. I m really not being a smartass. Unmalted barley is just cattle feed, but malted barly tastes like a good breakfast cereal. It s sweet and
                            Message 13 of 18 , Sep 30, 2010
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                              Royce,

                              Eat it.

                              I'm really not being a smartass. Unmalted barley is just cattle feed,
                              but malted barly tastes like a good breakfast cereal. It's sweet and
                              crucky, and has roasty flavor, admittedly with a lot of hull material in
                              it. I taste malted barley from the LHBS bins all the time, to see what I
                              want to do with the next beer of whisk(e)y.

                              Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > I looked last night at my barley. I bought it a while back and
                              > was going to remember what it was supposed to be. The container
                              just says 2
                              > roll on it. I don't know if it is malted or what. For
                              the most part I would
                              > think malted but I don't know. (A mind is a terrible thing to
                              waste)Â Is there
                              > a way to tell or is all barley from a brew shop malted?
                              >
                              >
                              ----snip----
                            • Royce Thigpen
                              Thanks for the info.  I have wanted to make beer anyway, so I guess if  you can do one you can do the other.  I would assume then that if you do an all
                              Message 14 of 18 , Sep 30, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Thanks for the info.  I have wanted to make beer anyway, so I guess if  you can do one you can do the other.  I would assume then that if you do an all barley mash, it would  be somewhere around 10 pounds of barley to 5 gallons of water.  Heat the water to 150 degreee add barley for an hour or so.  Correct.  JB has used these figures after heating/soaking the corn.  As y'all call tell, I need something simple.


                                From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
                                To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Thu, September 30, 2010 11:57:16 AM
                                Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Flake vs Corn

                                 

                                Jim and Royce,

                                For the first-time grain-masher, may I suggest only malted barley? Not only does it lauter and sparge like a dream (corn is a relative nightmare), but it's what allgrain beer-makers do, and the information and material support out there is vast. Of course, you're not making bourbon; it's only a single-malt whisk(e)y like Irish or Scotch, but some of us can live with that. (snicker)

                                After you have a successful mashing of barley under your belt, then you can go on to harder stuff, so nothing lost.

                                Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > Royce,
                                >
                                > Bout the only way your going to learn is to jump in and try it. Might
                                > be a failure at first, but most learning is done from failures (execpt
                                > sky diving) and first attempts - remember, you will never learn to sky
                                > dive unless you jump out of the airplane first lol [:(] (gulp)....
                                >
                                > Just try a simple mash at first - forget the rye or wheat and just try
                                > about 9 lbs. of cracked corn and a pound or so of malted 6 row barley in
                                > about 5 gallons of water (one of the recipes say 4.5 liters of water per
                                > kilogram of grains - usually at least 10 to 12% is malted barley, but
                                > never hurts to add a bit more). Soak the corn and let it simmer for
                                > about an hour till it gets soft and mushy. Then let the temp (using a
                                > confectioners themometer or digital) get to around 151 to 160F and
                                > adjust your heat so it stays at that temp. Add your malted barley and
                                > let it go thru the Saccharification Rest for about an hour or more until
                                > the iodine test (see Tony's instructions) does not turn blackish brown.
                                >
                                > Using a straining bag as he states, let the liquids drain overnight
                                > (called lautering) and sparge it see:
                                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lautering
                                > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lautering> from the grains or just
                                > ferment it on the grain, then lauter. Expect only about a 7% or so ABV
                                > since corn contains only about 50 to 60% starch and not all of it will
                                > be converted to maltose sugars.
                                >
                                > Again, the only way to learn is to just jump in (or out) and try it.
                                >
                                > JB.
                                >
                                >
                                ----snip---


                              • tgfoitwoods
                                Royce, You re pretty close in principle. The numbers that I happen to have in my head are for the beer I make most, a kickass (1088) malty strong Scotch ale,
                                Message 15 of 18 , Sep 30, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Royce,

                                  You're pretty close in principle. The numbers that I happen to have in
                                  my head are for the beer I make most, a kickass (1088) malty strong
                                  Scotch ale, higher in ABV and UN-converted dextrins for sweetness and
                                  mouthfeel, so they may be a bit different from what you would want in a
                                  beer, and certainly in a whisky.

                                  First I raise 6.5 gallons of water to a temperature calculated to give
                                  me a final, total, temperature of 155F after the 18 pounds of grain are
                                  added. There's a calculation for this starting watre temps, and I'm
                                  looking at changing it, so I won't give you a number. With my setup, I
                                  can adjust that final temp anyway.

                                  I stir thoroughly, and wrap a couple of towels around the kettle, and
                                  let it stand for 75 minutes, stirring a couple of times more. The I
                                  sparge, running 175F water in the top of the grainbed, to kill the
                                  enzymes, while drawing the sweet wort out the bottom, kinda rinsing all
                                  the sugars out of the grain. I collect 7 gallons, and then do the "beer
                                  boil" for about an hour, which brings me to about 6 gallons, which I
                                  chill, aerate, and pitch yeast.

                                  That slightly higher mash-in temp of 155F is designed to impair the
                                  starch conversion a small, calculated, amount, to leave some
                                  unfermentable malto-dextrins for flavor and mouthfeel.

                                  Every brewer, and malt whisky maker, will use some variant of this same
                                  process, but we're all trying to accomplish our versions of the same
                                  thing.

                                  Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Thanks for the info. I have wanted to make beer anyway, so I
                                  guess if you can
                                  > do one you can do the other. I would assume then that if you do
                                  an all barley
                                  > mash, it would be somewhere around 10 pounds of barley to 5
                                  gallons of water.Â
                                  > Heat the water to 150 degreee add barley for an hour or so.Â
                                  Correct. JB has
                                  > used these figures after heating/soaking the corn. As y'all call
                                  tell, I need
                                  > something simple.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ________________________________
                                  > From: tgfoitwoods zymurgybob@...
                                  > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Thu, September 30, 2010 11:57:16 AM
                                  > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Flake vs Corn
                                  >
                                  ----snip----
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