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Re: [new_distillers] Re: Confused

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  • Brian Hopper
    ... From: Royce Thigpen Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Confused To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 11 August, 2010,
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 11, 2010
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      --- On Wed, 11/8/10, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@...> wrote:

      From: Royce Thigpen <fireside58@...>
      Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Confused
      To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, 11 August, 2010, 2:45

       

      I have just finished my last run of the peach wash.  I have collected, all total and put together, one gallon of about 35% ABV.  My intent is to run all of it again slower and collect batches.  Do I still throw out the first 100 ml as before?  I also intend to add some distilled water to it to add volume to the pot.  Is this the correct way to make a spirit run?



      From: jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@ yahoo.com>
      To: new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com
      Sent: Tue, August 10, 2010 5:54:50 PM
      Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Confused

       


      Hey Royce,

      No problem. That joke about distillus interuptus was just a silly one
      between ZB and I since he coined that expression (from coitus
      interruptus) which makes one onery on both counts.

      Nothing personal against you. However, it does sound like your still
      does have mucho internal relfux which might explain the lack of flavors,
      smells and high ABV in the first part of your run or heads. I had a
      vertical riser and horizontal lyne arme that then went straight down to
      the condenser and was getting 160 proof heads from a 14% distillation.
      When I changed it to a 45 degree angle down to the condenser, it changed
      to 120 proof heads which is more inline with pot still calculations.

      I think now the main reason for the confusion is your relying too
      heavily on the head temperature of your still. After you become more
      experienced, you start relying less on head temps and more on the taste
      and smell of the distillate as I do (very rarely ever use a thermometer
      now). The head temp is totally dependant on the ABV of your
      fermentation, whether it is a 10% or 16% ABV. Heck, at high ABV in your
      pot, you could still be in the Heads when the temp says 176F. Sort of
      like the old story of 3 blind people feeling an elephant, one feeling
      the trunk saying it a tree, one feeling the tail, saying its a snake and
      one feeling the side and saying its a wall. You really need to take all
      the variables into consideration, especally sight, taste and smell.

      I still strongly suggest you do a spirits run and combine everything
      you have from both runs, but collect in smaller quantities, then do the
      taste and smell test and make your cuts.

      Vino es Veritas,

      Jim aka Waldo.

      --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@. ..>
      wrote:
      >
      > I guess that trying to save space and face, I neglected to put in the
      necessary
      > information. I am using a very small copper pot still that has
      some strange
      > reflux action in it. Unintentional. But it is what it is.Â
      My heat source is a
      > gas burner adjustable from almost out to quite hot. I started
      with a wash of
      > about 9 or 10%. I got rid of the first 100 ml or so and
      started collecting. I
      > realize I left some alcohol in the boiler. Unavoidable last
      night. I am still
      > a little confused about the hearts though.  In reading,
      taking things a little
      > literal, I was under the impression that the hearts come out at the
      optimal heat
      > range of 176 degrees. Anything before out and anythingÂ
      after were typically
      > headed for the next run. At 70% off the still, there is hardly
      any nose and
      > quite a burn to the taste. At 45% there is a good noseÂ
      but a undesirable
      > taste. To me anyhow. I know there is something in between, I
      just don't know
      > what it is yet. I don't know if I am too literal or just don't
      understand.Â
      > However, I really appreciate you folks for responding and willing
      to give
      > advise and guidance.

      hi bud iam usinng a very small alembic normaly i throw way the heads saving the middle third and last part i restill this works a treat theirs a lot of waste so i recommend doing it mightly low heat becouse to fast its going to mix or overlap tasting and smelling crap.

      also i reccomend the accasional taste of the heads when doing your first portion once you got 60ml heads start tasting for flavour and smelling your finger then later once your collecting your hearts i recomend tasting for off flavours until you think you made the cut hope this works for you brian its an art but you should just be ultra carefull better to collect to soon then over collect off tastes by from brian
      havnt been on here much lately bye brian

    • jamesonbeam1
      Nope Royce, If you already got rid of the foreshots then no need to again. Since your still seems to have so much internal reflux in it, I might want to
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 11, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Nope Royce,

        If you already got rid of the foreshots then no need to again. Since
        your still seems to have so much internal reflux in it, I might want to
        dilute it more down to 20% or so and try that.

        Otherwise sounds good.

        JB.


        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > I have just finished my last run of the peach wash. I have collected,
        all total
        > and put together, one gallon of about 35% ABV. My intent is to run all
        of it
        > again slower and collect batches. Do I still throw out the first 100
        ml as
        > before? I also intend to add some distilled water to it to add volume
        to the
        > pot. Is this the correct way to make a spirit run?
      • Brian
        ... second cut is made when your spirit starts to have off tastes you gotta do this one quik and precise or th whole exercise is a loss iam not saying drink
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 11, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Brian Hopper <brianhopper11@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > --- On Wed, 11/8/10, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@...> wrote:
          >
          > From: Royce Thigpen <fireside58@...>
          > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Confused
          > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Wednesday, 11 August, 2010, 2:45
          >
          >
          >
          > hey royce sounds like you need to decern the cuts it not easy but youl mannage normaly the heads tastes like burning acrid taste when you taste the flavour coming through and the burning subsiding then this is were you pause wait a second then make the cut job done
          second cut is made when your spirit starts to have off tastes you gotta do this one quik and precise or th whole exercise is a loss iam not saying drink the heads to taste just a drop on your finger taste then spit that shit out hope this helps bud
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >  
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > I have just finished my last run of the peach wash.  I have collected, all total and put together, one gallon of about 35% ABV.  My intent is to run all of it again slower and collect batches.  Do I still throw out the first 100 ml as before?  I also intend to add some distilled water to it to add volume to the pot.  Is this the correct way to make a spirit run?
          >
          >
          > From: jamesonbeam1
          > <jamesonbeam1@ yahoo.com>
          > To: new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com
          > Sent: Tue, August 10, 2010 5:54:50 PM
          > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Confused
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >  
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Hey Royce,
          >
          >
          >
          > No problem. That joke about distillus interuptus was just a silly one
          >
          > between ZB and I since he coined that expression (from coitus
          >
          > interruptus) which makes one onery on both counts.
          >
          >
          >
          > Nothing personal against you. However, it does sound like your still
          >
          > does have mucho internal relfux which might explain the lack of flavors,
          >
          > smells and high ABV in the first part of your run or heads. I had a
          >
          > vertical riser and horizontal lyne arme that then went straight down to
          >
          > the condenser and was getting 160 proof heads from a 14% distillation.
          >
          > When I changed it to a 45 degree angle down to the condenser, it changed
          >
          > to 120 proof heads which is more inline with pot still calculations.
          >
          >
          >
          > I think now the main reason for the confusion is your relying too
          >
          > heavily on the head temperature of your still. After you become more
          >
          > experienced, you start relying less on head temps and more on the taste
          >
          > and smell of the distillate as I do (very rarely ever use a thermometer
          >
          > now). The head temp is totally dependant on the ABV of your
          >
          > fermentation, whether it is a 10% or 16% ABV. Heck, at high ABV in your
          >
          > pot, you could still be in the Heads when the temp says 176F. Sort of
          >
          > like the old story of 3 blind people feeling an elephant, one feeling
          >
          > the trunk saying it a tree, one feeling the tail, saying its a snake and
          >
          > one feeling the side and saying its a wall. You really need to take all
          >
          > the variables into consideration, especally sight, taste and smell.
          >
          >
          >
          > I still strongly suggest you do a spirits run and combine everything
          >
          > you have from both runs, but collect in smaller quantities, then do the
          >
          > taste and smell test and make your cuts.
          >
          >
          >
          > Vino es Veritas,
          >
          >
          >
          > Jim aka Waldo.
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@ ..>
          >
          > wrote:
          >
          > >
          >
          > > I guess that trying to save space and face, I neglected to put in the
          >
          > necessary
          >
          > > information. I am using a very small copper pot still that has
          >
          > some strange
          >
          > > reflux action in it. Unintentional. But it is what it is.Â
          >
          > My heat source is a
          >
          > > gas burner adjustable from almost out to quite hot. I started
          >
          > with a wash of
          >
          > > about 9 or 10%. I got rid of the first 100 ml or so and
          >
          > started collecting. I
          >
          > > realize I left some alcohol in the boiler. Unavoidable last
          >
          > night. I am still
          >
          > > a little confused about the hearts though.  In reading,
          >
          > taking things a little
          >
          > > literal, I was under the impression that the hearts come out at the
          >
          > optimal heat
          >
          > > range of 176 degrees. Anything before out and anythingÂ
          >
          > after were typically
          >
          > > headed for the next run. At 70% off the still, there is hardly
          >
          > any nose and
          >
          > > quite a burn to the taste. At 45% there is a good noseÂ
          >
          > but a undesirable
          >
          > > taste. To me anyhow. I know there is something in between, I
          >
          > just don't know
          >
          > > what it is yet. I don't know if I am too literal or just don't
          >
          > understand.Â
          >
          > > However, I really appreciate you folks for responding and willing
          >
          > to give
          >
          > > advise and guidance.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > hi bud iam usinng a very small alembic normaly i throw way the heads saving the middle third and last part i restill this works a treat theirs a lot of waste so i recommend doing it mightly low heat becouse to fast its going to mix or overlap tasting and smelling crap.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > also i reccomend the accasional taste of the heads when doing your first portion once you got 60ml heads start tasting for flavour and smelling your finger then later once your collecting your hearts i recomend tasting for off flavours until you think you made the cut hope this works for you brian its an art but you should just be ultra carefull better to collect to soon then over collect off tastes by from brianhavnt been on here much lately bye brian
          >
        • Royce Thigpen
          I will. I assume (you know what that means) that you run the spirit run as before, down to a low ABV and make the cuts in smaller batches.  I am very
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 11, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            I will. I assume (you know what that means) that you run the spirit run as before, down to a low ABV and make the cuts in smaller batches.  I am very interested in how you worked the coffee maker.  I happen to have one on the shelf that doesn't work properly for making coffee, but I might can make it work without much trouble.  It is a 100 cup perculator type.


            From: jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@...>
            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wed, August 11, 2010 11:26:44 AM
            Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Confused

             


            Nope Royce,

            If you already got rid of the foreshots then no need to again. Since
            your still seems to have so much internal reflux in it, I might want to
            dilute it more down to 20% or so and try that.

            Otherwise sounds good.

            JB.

            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@...>
            wrote:

            >
            > I have just finished my last run of the peach wash. I have collected,
            all total
            > and put together, one gallon of about 35% ABV. My intent is to run all
            of it
            > again slower and collect batches. Do I still throw out the first 100
            ml as
            > before? I also intend to add some distilled water to it to add volume
            to the
            > pot. Is this the correct way to make a spirit run?


          • Brian
            ... saving the tails discarding the heads, bottle the heads, then redistill all of the tails but be sure you made the cut right on the tails then decide if you
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 11, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Brian" <brianhopper11@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Brian Hopper <brianhopper11@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- On Wed, 11/8/10, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@> wrote:
              > >
              > > From: Royce Thigpen <fireside58@>
              > > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Confused
              > > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
              > > Date: Wednesday, 11 August, 2010, 2:45
              > >
              > > royce heres your solution collect the heads from your runs
              saving the tails discarding the heads, bottle the heads,
              then redistill all of the tails but be sure you made the cut right on the tails then
              decide if you wanna add them to the hearts
              > >
              > > hey royce sounds like you need to decern the cuts it not easy but youl mannage normaly the heads tastes like burning acrid taste when you taste the flavour coming through and the burning subsiding then this is were you pause wait a second then make the cut job done
              > second cut is made when your spirit starts to have off tastes you gotta do this one quik and precise or th whole exercise is a loss iam not saying drink the heads to taste just a drop on your finger taste then spit that shit out hope this helps bud
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >  
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > I have just finished my last run of the peach wash.  I have collected, all total and put together, one gallon of about 35% ABV.  My intent is to run all of it again slower and collect batches.  Do I still throw out the first 100 ml as before?  I also intend to add some distilled water to it to add volume to the pot.  Is this the correct way to make a spirit run?
              > >
              > >
              > > From: jamesonbeam1
              > > <jamesonbeam1@ yahoo.com>
              > > To: new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com
              > > Sent: Tue, August 10, 2010 5:54:50 PM
              > > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Confused
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >  
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Hey Royce,
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > No problem. That joke about distillus interuptus was just a silly one
              > >
              > > between ZB and I since he coined that expression (from coitus
              > >
              > > interruptus) which makes one onery on both counts.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Nothing personal against you. However, it does sound like your still
              > >
              > > does have mucho internal relfux which might explain the lack of flavors,
              > >
              > > smells and high ABV in the first part of your run or heads. I had a
              > >
              > > vertical riser and horizontal lyne arme that then went straight down to
              > >
              > > the condenser and was getting 160 proof heads from a 14% distillation.
              > >
              > > When I changed it to a 45 degree angle down to the condenser, it changed
              > >
              > > to 120 proof heads which is more inline with pot still calculations.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > I think now the main reason for the confusion is your relying too
              > >
              > > heavily on the head temperature of your still. After you become more
              > >
              > > experienced, you start relying less on head temps and more on the taste
              > >
              > > and smell of the distillate as I do (very rarely ever use a thermometer
              > >
              > > now). The head temp is totally dependant on the ABV of your
              > >
              > > fermentation, whether it is a 10% or 16% ABV. Heck, at high ABV in your
              > >
              > > pot, you could still be in the Heads when the temp says 176F. Sort of
              > >
              > > like the old story of 3 blind people feeling an elephant, one feeling
              > >
              > > the trunk saying it a tree, one feeling the tail, saying its a snake and
              > >
              > > one feeling the side and saying its a wall. You really need to take all
              > >
              > > the variables into consideration, especally sight, taste and smell.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > I still strongly suggest you do a spirits run and combine everything
              > >
              > > you have from both runs, but collect in smaller quantities, then do the
              > >
              > > taste and smell test and make your cuts.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Vino es Veritas,
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Jim aka Waldo.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@ ..>
              > >
              > > wrote:
              > >
              > > >
              > >
              > > > I guess that trying to save space and face, I neglected to put in the
              > >
              > > necessary
              > >
              > > > information. I am using a very small copper pot still that has
              > >
              > > some strange
              > >
              > > > reflux action in it. Unintentional. But it is what it is.Â
              > >
              > > My heat source is a
              > >
              > > > gas burner adjustable from almost out to quite hot. I started
              > >
              > > with a wash of
              > >
              > > > about 9 or 10%. I got rid of the first 100 ml or so and
              > >
              > > started collecting. I
              > >
              > > > realize I left some alcohol in the boiler. Unavoidable last
              > >
              > > night. I am still
              > >
              > > > a little confused about the hearts though.  In reading,
              > >
              > > taking things a little
              > >
              > > > literal, I was under the impression that the hearts come out at the
              > >
              > > optimal heat
              > >
              > > > range of 176 degrees. Anything before out and anythingÂ
              > >
              > > after were typically
              > >
              > > > headed for the next run. At 70% off the still, there is hardly
              > >
              > > any nose and
              > >
              > > > quite a burn to the taste. At 45% there is a good noseÂ
              > >
              > > but a undesirable
              > >
              > > > taste. To me anyhow. I know there is something in between, I
              > >
              > > just don't know
              > >
              > > > what it is yet. I don't know if I am too literal or just don't
              > >
              > > understand.Â
              > >
              > > > However, I really appreciate you folks for responding and willing
              > >
              > > to give
              > >
              > > > advise and guidance.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > hi bud iam usinng a very small alembic normaly i throw way the heads saving the middle third and last part i restill this works a treat theirs a lot of waste so i recommend doing it mightly low heat becouse to fast its going to mix or overlap tasting and smelling crap.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > also i reccomend the accasional taste of the heads when doing your first portion once you got 60ml heads start tasting for flavour and smelling your finger then later once your collecting your hearts i recomend tasting for off flavours until you think you made the cut hope this works for you brian its an art but you should just be ultra carefull better to collect to soon then over collect off tastes by from brianhavnt been on here much lately bye brian
              > >
              >
            • jamesonbeam1
              Lol yes Royce, Know what ass out of u and me means. Just run it slow and careful - watch as the ABV drops and use your smell and tastes. You will soon learn
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 11, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Lol yes Royce,

                Know what ass out of u and me means. Just run it slow and careful -
                watch as the ABV drops and use your smell and tastes. You will soon
                learn not to rely on temps so much.

                If your coffee maker is designed like mine, taking off the plastic
                bottom will expose the wiring to the perculator controls and thermostat.
                Mine has a white wire (ground) from the plug to the thermostat and
                another white wire below it going to the heater coil. By just wrapping
                a stripped electrical wire between the 2 white grounds, it will override
                the themostat and produce constant heat to provide continuous boiling.
                Even though its just from that little center indentation for the
                perculator stem, its enough to provide a constant stream of distillate
                for stripping. Unfortunately, unless you connect an external variac or
                variable control, there is no way to adjust the heat.

                I just drilled a 5/8" hole in the top for the 1/2" riser and lyne arme.
                By taking off that glass viewer on top, I can take out the spent wash
                from the bottom coffee spigot and just funnel in fresh wash on top and
                replace it (use a little bit of plumbers putty to keep it air tight).

                Can strip about 6 gallons of wash in 4 1/2 hours or so.

                JB.




                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > I will. I assume (you know what that means) that you run the
                spirit run as
                > before, down to a low ABV and make the cuts in smaller batches. I
                am very
                > interested in how you worked the coffee maker. I happen to have
                one on the
                > shelf that doesn't work properly for making coffee, but I might can
                make it work
                > without much trouble. It is a 100 cup perculator type.
              • Royce Thigpen
                Thanks.  I will pull the bottom off mine and see what is there. ________________________________ From: jamesonbeam1 To:
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 11, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Thanks.  I will pull the bottom off mine and see what is there.


                  From: jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@...>
                  To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wed, August 11, 2010 3:27:25 PM
                  Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Confused

                   


                  Lol yes Royce,

                  Know what ass out of u and me means. Just run it slow and careful -
                  watch as the ABV drops and use your smell and tastes. You will soon
                  learn not to rely on temps so much.

                  If your coffee maker is designed like mine, taking off the plastic
                  bottom will expose the wiring to the perculator controls and thermostat.
                  Mine has a white wire (ground) from the plug to the thermostat and
                  another white wire below it going to the heater coil. By just wrapping
                  a stripped electrical wire between the 2 white grounds, it will override
                  the themostat and produce constant heat to provide continuous boiling.
                  Even though its just from that little center indentation for the
                  perculator stem, its enough to provide a constant stream of distillate
                  for stripping. Unfortunately, unless you connect an external variac or
                  variable control, there is no way to adjust the heat.

                  I just drilled a 5/8" hole in the top for the 1/2" riser and lyne arme.
                  By taking off that glass viewer on top, I can take out the spent wash
                  from the bottom coffee spigot and just funnel in fresh wash on top and
                  replace it (use a little bit of plumbers putty to keep it air tight).

                  Can strip about 6 gallons of wash in 4 1/2 hours or so.

                  JB.

                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@...>
                  wrote:

                  >
                  > I will. I assume (you know what that means) that you run the
                  spirit run as
                  > before, down to a low ABV and make the cuts in smaller batches. I
                  am very
                  > interested in how you worked the coffee maker. I happen to have
                  one on the
                  > shelf that doesn't work properly for making coffee, but I might can
                  make it work
                  > without much trouble. It is a 100 cup
                  perculator type.


                • Royce Thigpen
                  Brian, unless I am missing something, I can see where you are responding, but nothing is there. ________________________________ From: Brian
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 11, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Brian, unless I am missing something, I can see where you are responding, but nothing is there.


                    From: Brian <brianhopper11@...>
                    To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wed, August 11, 2010 3:17:34 PM
                    Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Confused

                     



                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Brian" <brianhopper11@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Brian Hopper <brianhopper11@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- On Wed, 11/8/10, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > From: Royce Thigpen <fireside58@>
                    > > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Confused
                    > > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Date: Wednesday, 11 August, 2010, 2:45
                    > >
                    > > royce heres your solution collect the heads from your runs
                    saving the tails discarding the heads, bottle the heads,
                    then redistill all of the tails but be sure you made the cut right on the tails then
                    decide if you wanna add them to the hearts
                    > >
                    > > hey royce sounds like you need to decern the cuts it not easy but youl mannage normaly the heads tastes like burning acrid taste when you taste the flavour coming through and the burning subsiding then this is were you pause wait a second then make the cut job done
                    > second cut is made when your spirit starts to have off tastes you gotta do this one quik and precise or th whole exercise is a loss iam not saying drink the heads to taste just a drop on your finger taste then spit that shit out hope this helps bud
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >  
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I have just finished my last run of the peach wash.  I have collected, all total and put together, one gallon of about 35% ABV.  My intent is to run all of it again slower and collect batches.  Do I still throw out the first 100 ml as before?  I also intend to add some distilled water to it to add volume to the pot.  Is this the correct way to make a spirit run?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > From: jamesonbeam1
                    > > <jamesonbeam1@ yahoo.com>
                    > > To: new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com
                    > > Sent: Tue, August 10, 2010 5:54:50 PM
                    > > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Confused
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >  
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Hey Royce,
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > No problem. That joke about distillus interuptus was just a silly one
                    > >
                    > > between ZB and I since he coined that expression (from coitus
                    > >
                    > > interruptus) which makes one onery on both counts.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Nothing personal against you. However, it does sound like your still
                    > >
                    > > does have mucho internal relfux which might explain the lack of flavors,
                    > >
                    > > smells and high ABV in the first part of your run or heads. I had a
                    > >
                    > > vertical riser and horizontal lyne arme that then went straight down to
                    > >
                    > > the condenser and was getting 160 proof heads from a 14% distillation.
                    > >
                    > > When I changed it to a 45 degree angle down to the condenser, it changed
                    > >
                    > > to 120 proof heads which is more inline with pot still calculations.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I think now the main reason for the confusion is your relying too
                    > >
                    > > heavily on the head temperature of your still. After you become more
                    > >
                    > > experienced, you start relying less on head temps and more on the taste
                    > >
                    > > and smell of the distillate as I do (very rarely ever use a thermometer
                    > >
                    > > now). The head temp is totally dependant on the ABV of your
                    > >
                    > > fermentation, whether it is a 10% or 16% ABV. Heck, at high ABV in your
                    > >
                    > > pot, you could still be in the Heads when the temp says 176F. Sort of
                    > >
                    > > like the old story of 3 blind people feeling an elephant, one feeling
                    > >
                    > > the trunk saying it a tree, one feeling the tail, saying its a snake and
                    > >
                    > > one feeling the side and saying its a wall. You really need to take all
                    > >
                    > > the variables into consideration, especally sight, taste and smell.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I still strongly suggest you do a spirits run and combine everything
                    > >
                    > > you have from both runs, but collect in smaller quantities, then do the
                    > >
                    > > taste and smell test and make your cuts.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Vino es Veritas,
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Jim aka Waldo.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@ ..>
                    > >
                    > > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > > I guess that trying to save space and face, I neglected to put in the
                    > >
                    > > necessary
                    > >
                    > > > information. I am using a very small copper pot still that has
                    > >
                    > > some strange
                    > >
                    > > > reflux action in it. Unintentional. But it is what it is.Â
                    > >
                    > > My heat source is a
                    > >
                    > > > gas burner adjustable from almost out to quite hot. I started
                    > >
                    > > with a wash of
                    > >
                    > > > about 9 or 10%. I got rid of the first 100 ml or so and
                    > >
                    > > started collecting. I
                    > >
                    > > > realize I left some alcohol in the boiler. Unavoidable last
                    > >
                    > > night. I am still
                    > >
                    > > > a little confused about the hearts though.  In reading,
                    > >
                    > > taking things a little
                    > >
                    > > > literal, I was under the impression that the hearts come out at the
                    > >
                    > > optimal heat
                    > >
                    > > > range of 176 degrees. Anything before out and anythingÂ
                    > >
                    > > after were typically
                    > >
                    > > > headed for the next run. At 70% off the still, there is hardly
                    > >
                    > > any nose and
                    > >
                    > > > quite a burn to the taste. At 45% there is a good noseÂ
                    > >
                    > > but a undesirable
                    > >
                    > > > taste. To me anyhow. I know there is something in between, I
                    > >
                    > > just don't know
                    > >
                    > > > what it is yet. I don't know if I am too literal or just don't
                    > >
                    > > understand.Â
                    > >
                    > > > However, I really appreciate you folks for responding and willing
                    > >
                    > > to give
                    > >
                    > > > advise and guidance.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > hi bud iam usinng a very small alembic normaly i throw way the heads saving the middle third and last part i restill this works a treat theirs a lot of waste so i recommend doing it mightly low heat becouse to fast its going to mix or overlap tasting and smelling crap.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > also i reccomend the accasional taste of the heads when doing your first portion once you got 60ml heads start tasting for flavour and smelling your finger then later once your collecting your hearts i recomend tasting for off flavours until you think you made the cut hope this works for you brian its an art but you should just be ultra carefull better to collect to soon then over collect off tastes by from brianhavnt been on here much lately bye brian
                    > >
                    >


                  • Brian Hopper
                    every body is confused iam confused thigpen confuced james beam its this random posts are freaking me out iam confuced ... From: Royce Thigpen
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 11, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      every body is confused iam confused thigpen confuced james beam its this random posts are freaking me out iam confuced

                      --- On Wed, 11/8/10, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@...> wrote:

                      From: Royce Thigpen <fireside58@...>
                      Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Confused
                      To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Wednesday, 11 August, 2010, 20:02

                       

                      Brian, unless I am missing something, I can see where you are responding, but nothing is there.


                      From: Brian <brianhopper11@ yahoo.co. uk>
                      To: new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com
                      Sent: Wed, August 11, 2010 3:17:34 PM
                      Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Confused

                       



                      --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, "Brian" <brianhopper11@ ...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, Brian Hopper <brianhopper11@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- On Wed, 11/8/10, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > From: Royce Thigpen <fireside58@>
                      > > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Confused
                      > > To: new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com
                      > > Date: Wednesday, 11 August, 2010, 2:45
                      > >
                      > > royce heres your solution collect the heads from your runs
                      saving the tails discarding the heads, bottle the heads,
                      then redistill all of the tails but be sure you made the cut right on the tails then
                      decide if you wanna add them to the hearts
                      > >
                      > > hey royce sounds like you need to decern the cuts it not easy but youl mannage normaly the heads tastes like burning acrid taste when you taste the flavour coming through and the burning subsiding then this is were you pause wait a second then make the cut job done
                      > second cut is made when your spirit starts to have off tastes you gotta do this one quik and precise or th whole exercise is a loss iam not saying drink the heads to taste just a drop on your finger taste then spit that shit out hope this helps bud
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >  
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I have just finished my last run of the peach wash.  I have collected, all total and put together, one gallon of about 35% ABV.  My intent is to run all of it again slower and collect batches.  Do I still throw out the first 100 ml as before?  I also intend to add some distilled water to it to add volume to the pot.  Is this the correct way to make a spirit run?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > From: jamesonbeam1
                      > > <jamesonbeam1@ yahoo.com>
                      > > To: new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com
                      > > Sent: Tue, August 10, 2010 5:54:50 PM
                      > > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Confused
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >  
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Hey Royce,
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > No problem. That joke about distillus interuptus was just a silly one
                      > >
                      > > between ZB and I since he coined that expression (from coitus
                      > >
                      > > interruptus) which makes one onery on both counts.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Nothing personal against you. However, it does sound like your still
                      > >
                      > > does have mucho internal relfux which might explain the lack of flavors,
                      > >
                      > > smells and high ABV in the first part of your run or heads. I had a
                      > >
                      > > vertical riser and horizontal lyne arme that then went straight down to
                      > >
                      > > the condenser and was getting 160 proof heads from a 14% distillation.
                      > >
                      > > When I changed it to a 45 degree angle down to the condenser, it changed
                      > >
                      > > to 120 proof heads which is more inline with pot still calculations.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I think now the main reason for the confusion is your relying too
                      > >
                      > > heavily on the head temperature of your still. After you become more
                      > >
                      > > experienced, you start relying less on head temps and more on the taste
                      > >
                      > > and smell of the distillate as I do (very rarely ever use a thermometer
                      > >
                      > > now). The head temp is totally dependant on the ABV of your
                      > >
                      > > fermentation, whether it is a 10% or 16% ABV. Heck, at high ABV in your
                      > >
                      > > pot, you could still be in the Heads when the temp says 176F. Sort of
                      > >
                      > > like the old story of 3 blind people feeling an elephant, one feeling
                      > >
                      > > the trunk saying it a tree, one feeling the tail, saying its a snake and
                      > >
                      > > one feeling the side and saying its a wall. You really need to take all
                      > >
                      > > the variables into consideration, especally sight, taste and smell.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I still strongly suggest you do a spirits run and combine everything
                      > >
                      > > you have from both runs, but collect in smaller quantities, then do the
                      > >
                      > > taste and smell test and make your cuts.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Vino es Veritas,
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Jim aka Waldo.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@ ..>
                      > >
                      > > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > > I guess that trying to save space and face, I neglected to put in the
                      > >
                      > > necessary
                      > >
                      > > > information. I am using a very small copper pot still that has
                      > >
                      > > some strange
                      > >
                      > > > reflux action in it. Unintentional. But it is what it is.Â
                      > >
                      > > My heat source is a
                      > >
                      > > > gas burner adjustable from almost out to quite hot. I started
                      > >
                      > > with a wash of
                      > >
                      > > > about 9 or 10%. I got rid of the first 100 ml or so and
                      > >
                      > > started collecting. I
                      > >
                      > > > realize I left some alcohol in the boiler. Unavoidable last
                      > >
                      > > night. I am still
                      > >
                      > > > a little confused about the hearts though.  In reading,
                      > >
                      > > taking things a little
                      > >
                      > > > literal, I was under the impression that the hearts come out at the
                      > >
                      > > optimal heat
                      > >
                      > > > range of 176 degrees. Anything before out and anythingÂ
                      > >
                      > > after were typically
                      > >
                      > > > headed for the next run. At 70% off the still, there is hardly
                      > >
                      > > any nose and
                      > >
                      > > > quite a burn to the taste. At 45% there is a good noseÂ
                      > >
                      > > but a undesirable
                      > >
                      > > > taste. To me anyhow. I know there is something in between, I
                      > >
                      > > just don't know
                      > >
                      > > > what it is yet. I don't know if I am too literal or just don't
                      > >
                      > > understand.Â
                      > >
                      > > > However, I really appreciate you folks for responding and willing
                      > >
                      > > to give
                      > >
                      > > > advise and guidance.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > hi bud iam usinng a very small alembic normaly i throw way the heads saving the middle third and last part i restill this works a treat theirs a lot of waste so i recommend doing it mightly low heat becouse to fast its going to mix or overlap tasting and smelling crap.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > also i reccomend the accasional taste of the heads when doing your first portion once you got 60ml heads start tasting for flavour and smelling your finger then later once your collecting your hearts i recomend tasting for off flavours until you think you made the cut hope this works for you brian its an art but you should just be ultra carefull better to collect to soon then over collect off tastes by from brianhavnt been on here much lately bye brian
                      > >
                      >



                    • Harry
                      ... Brian, This is the sort of confusion that happens when you don t trim your posts. You are posting comments right at the very end of long lists of previous
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 11, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Brian Hopper <brianhopper11@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > every body is confused iam confused thigpen confuced james beam its this random posts are freaking me out iam confuced
                        >
                        > --- On Wed, 11/8/10, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > From: Royce Thigpen <fireside58@...>
                        > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Confused
                        > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Wednesday, 11 August, 2010, 20:02



                        Brian,

                        This is the sort of confusion that happens when you don't trim your posts.

                        You are posting comments right at the very end of long lists of previous post/messages material. Nobody can see them.

                        Please delete all unwanted stuff, then type your reply. 'Top of msg' or 'bottom of msg' posting are both acceptable, but please trim the junk.


                        Slainte!
                        regards Harry
                        Groups Owner
                      • jamesonbeam1
                        Brian, As Harry mentioned its not a the random posting thing. You respond to the latest posting and delete all the previous postings or put a *Snip _____ * in
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 12, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Brian,

                          As Harry mentioned its not a the random posting thing. You respond to
                          the latest posting and delete all the previous postings or put a *Snip
                          _____ * in the older messages that have more then one or 2 of these <<<
                          thingies.. if you look at your recent posting and the way I sniped it,
                          makes alot more sense....




                          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Brian Hopper <brianhopper11@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > every body is confused iam confused thigpen confuced james beam its
                          this random posts are freaking me out iam confuced
                          >
                          > --- On Wed, 11/8/10, Royce Thigpen fireside58@... wrote:

                          Snip________________


                          > royce heres your solution collect the heads from your runs
                          > saving the tails discarding the heads, bottle the heads,
                          > then redistill all of the tails but be sure you made the cut right on
                          the tails then
                          > decide if you wanna add them to the hearts
                          > > >
                          > > > hey royce sounds like you need to decern the cuts it not easy but
                          youl mannage normaly the heads tastes like burning acrid taste when you
                          taste the flavour coming through and the burning subsiding then this is
                          were you pause wait a second then make the cut job done
                          > > second cut is made when your spirit starts to have off tastes you
                          gotta do this one quik and precise or th whole exercise is a loss iam
                          not saying drink the heads to taste just a drop on your finger taste
                          then spit that shit out hope this helps bud
                        • Royce Thigpen
                          I did the spirit run yesterday.  Ended up with 2 quarts of 70% ABV.  Some nose in it and I have put in on wood chips for a while.  I guess the next step is
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 13, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I did the spirit run yesterday.  Ended up with 2 quarts of 70% ABV.  Some nose in it and I have put in on wood chips for a while.  I guess the next step is to cut it to drinking %.  I think most brandy is about 40%.


                            From: Royce Thigpen <fireside58@...>
                            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wed, August 11, 2010 2:04:41 PM
                            Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Confused

                             

                            I will. I assume (you know what that means) that you run the spirit run as before, down to a low ABV and make the cuts in smaller batches.  I am very interested in how you worked the coffee maker.  I happen to have one on the shelf that doesn't work properly for making coffee, but I might can make it work without much trouble.  It is a 100 cup perculator type.


                            From: jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@ yahoo.com>
                            To: new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com
                            Sent: Wed, August 11, 2010 11:26:44 AM
                            Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Confused

                             


                            Nope Royce,

                            If you already got rid of the foreshots then no need to again. Since
                            your still seems to have so much internal reflux in it, I might want to
                            dilute it more down to 20% or so and try that.

                            Otherwise sounds good.

                            JB.

                            --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@. ..>
                            wrote:

                            >
                            > I have just finished my last run of the peach wash. I have collected,
                            all total
                            > and put together, one gallon of about 35% ABV. My intent is to run all
                            of it
                            > again slower and collect batches. Do I still throw out the first 100
                            ml as
                            > before? I also intend to add some distilled water to it to add volume
                            to the
                            > pot. Is this the correct way to make a spirit
                            run?



                          • jamesonbeam1
                            Royce, There have been several studies showing that diluting the spirits down to 124 / 125 proof, as Wal and others have mentioned, gives much better results.
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 13, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Royce,

                              There have been several studies showing that diluting the spirits down
                              to 124 / 125 proof, as Wal and others have mentioned, gives much better
                              results. Then after aging, you can bring it down to drinking
                              percentage. Same for brandies.

                              Matter O' fact the federal laws for making our Bourbons, Tennessee
                              Whiskey and Rye require distillers to reduce their distillate of no more
                              then 160 proof down to 125 proof before barreling for a minimum of 2
                              years.

                              JB.

                              PS> Might want to shake and open your containers a couple of times per
                              month to aerate the spirits as barrels do this naturally.


                              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > I did the spirit run yesterday. Ended up with 2 quarts of 70%
                              ABV. Some nose
                              > in it and I have put in on wood chips for a while. I guess the
                              next step is to
                              > cut it to drinking %. I think most brandy is about 40%.
                            • Royce Thigpen
                              I have read about others that can distill a wash at certain proofs (percentages).  With my still, it starts off high and when it gets to a 50 - 60% range, it
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 13, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I have read about others that can distill a wash at certain proofs (percentages).  With my still, it starts off high and when it gets to a 50 - 60% range, it may have some off taste in it, or if I run the still hard enough to distill at a set range, it has what I would consider wash carry over in it with an off taste.  I think I may need to work on my column.  I may take a picture of the boiler and let you folks make suggestions.


                                From: jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@...>
                                To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Fri, August 13, 2010 9:28:36 AM
                                Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Confused

                                 


                                Royce,

                                There have been several studies showing that diluting the spirits down
                                to 124 / 125 proof, as Wal and others have mentioned, gives much better
                                results. Then after aging, you can bring it down to drinking
                                percentage. Same for brandies.

                                Matter O' fact the federal laws for making our Bourbons, Tennessee
                                Whiskey and Rye require distillers to reduce their distillate of no more
                                then 160 proof down to 125 proof before barreling for a minimum of 2
                                years.

                                JB.

                                PS> Might want to shake and open your containers a couple of times per
                                month to aerate the spirits as barrels do this naturally.

                                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@...>
                                wrote:

                                >
                                > I did the spirit run yesterday. Ended up with 2 quarts of 70%
                                ABV. Some nose
                                > in it and I have put in on wood chips for a while. I guess the
                                next step is to
                                > cut it to drinking %. I think most brandy is about 40%.


                              • jamesonbeam1
                                Yes, Please send us a picture of your still.. Really sounds like your getting lots of internal reflux due to either the boiler design or lyne arm design. As
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 13, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Yes,

                                  Please send us a picture of your still.. Really sounds like your
                                  getting lots of internal reflux due to either the boiler design or lyne
                                  arm design. As mentioned before, my horizontal lyne arm caused some
                                  additional reflux since the vapors would just sit and condense there and
                                  cause much higher ABV during the distillation.

                                  Normal calculations on a 14% or so distillation should only produce
                                  about a 115 to 120 proof distillate on the first run. Then, if you
                                  re-distill this and dilute down to 30 percent or so, it should give you
                                  the 160 proof or there abouts level that we shoot for when making
                                  flavored brown stuff. (like bourbons, brandies or rum) Our buddies
                                  with those reflux stills making netural stuff in the 90 to 95.6 percent
                                  range are in a different category.

                                  In a pot still, at 50 to 60% ABV, you should still have a ways to go
                                  before you reach the tails with the off-tastes and cardboard smell.
                                  Lowering the heat during this point also helps.

                                  JB.


                                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I have read about others that can distill a wash at certain proofs
                                  > (percentages). With my still, it starts off high and when it gets
                                  to a 50 - 60%
                                  > range, it may have some off taste in it, or if I run the still hard
                                  enough to
                                  > distill at a set range, it has what I would consider wash carry over
                                  in it with
                                  > an off taste. I think I may need to work on my column. I may
                                  take a picture of
                                  > the boiler and let you folks make suggestions.
                                • Royce Thigpen
                                  I will get a picture and attach it this weekend.  I think my trouble is in the size of the outlet of the pot.  It is only about 5/8 ID.  I have had to have
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 13, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I will get a picture and attach it this weekend.  I think my trouble is in the size of the outlet of the pot.  It is only about 5/8" ID.  I have had to have an adapter made to match the threads of the pot cap. I am using a piece of 3/4" copper soldered in the adapter with a 3/4"X1/2" tee for the horzonial arm turned down to catch the 3/8"copper condensor.
                                     
                                    I am having to have parts made because the kettle is old enough that the standard threads now are not what they were back when.  I think the adapter I had made was something like 3/4 X 13 threads.


                                    From: jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@...>
                                    To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Fri, August 13, 2010 2:27:44 PM
                                    Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Confused

                                     


                                    Yes,

                                    Please send us a picture of your still.. Really sounds like your
                                    getting lots of internal reflux due to either the boiler design or lyne
                                    arm design. As mentioned before, my horizontal lyne arm caused some
                                    additional reflux since the vapors would just sit and condense there and
                                    cause much higher ABV during the distillation.

                                    Normal calculations on a 14% or so distillation should only produce
                                    about a 115 to 120 proof distillate on the first run. Then, if you
                                    re-distill this and dilute down to 30 percent or so, it should give you
                                    the 160 proof or there abouts level that we shoot for when making
                                    flavored brown stuff. (like bourbons, brandies or rum) Our buddies
                                    with those reflux stills making netural stuff in the 90 to 95.6 percent
                                    range are in a different category.

                                    In a pot still, at 50 to 60% ABV, you should still have a ways to go
                                    before you reach the tails with the off-tastes and cardboard smell.
                                    Lowering the heat during this point also helps.

                                    JB.

                                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Royce Thigpen <fireside58@...>
                                    wrote:

                                    >
                                    > I have read about others that can distill a wash at certain proofs
                                    > (percentages). With my still, it starts off high and when it gets
                                    to a 50 - 60%
                                    > range, it may have some off taste in it, or if I run the still hard
                                    enough to
                                    > distill at a set range, it has what I would consider wash carry over
                                    in it with
                                    > an off taste. I think I may need to work on my column. I may
                                    take a picture of
                                    > the boiler and let you folks make suggestions.


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