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Re: I Need Help (again)

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  • jamesonbeam1
    Tom, YWV. However, this is the second or third time I have heard of people producing blue distillate after shutting down and restarting the next day. What
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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      Tom,

      YWV. However, this is the second or third time I have heard of people
      producing blue distillate after shutting down and restarting the next
      day. What happens is that any vapors and liquid, rich in that ammoium
      based nitrogen with sit in the copper parts of your still and cause this
      chemical reaction over that time period. Tis always better to do a
      complete run thru or if you have to stop, take the head off and rinse
      out well before restarting.

      JB.


      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <tomhawk412@...> wrote:
      >
      > JB,
      >
      > Thanks for the help. I'm still confused about the "nose" of the
      output. Even if I got the cuts wrtong, the middle of the middle should
      be as good as it gets and all fractions have the same "nose" and bitter
      after taste.
      >
      > As soon as I have an oportunity, I'm going to redistill it.
      >
      > The "blue" distillate from the previous run is still a mystery too as
      the first day's out pout was very nice. I shut down and resumed the next
      day (it was a double batch - 10 gallons, total) and the output on the
      second day was blue. I changed nothing.
      >
      > In any event, I'm learning and enjoying every twist and turn!
      >
      > Cheers,
      >
      > Tom
    • tgfoitwoods
      Interesting, Waldo, I ve never heard the part about interrupted runs (distillus interruptus?) and the blue ookies, but it makes sense. If I remember the
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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        Interesting, Waldo,

        I've never heard the part about interrupted runs (distillus
        interruptus?) and the blue ookies, but it makes sense. If I remember the
        chemistry correctly, Schweizer's reagent is only formed at all if the
        wash is basic. If Tom has to halt his runs very often, maybe dropping
        the wash pH to, say, 5, would allow him to avoid "feeling blue" even
        with an interrupted run.

        Have you ever tested the pH of your JEM wash?

        I'm still stumped by the offensive nose.

        Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller


        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...>
        wrote:
        >
        >
        > Tom,
        >
        > YWV. However, this is the second or third time I have heard of people
        > producing blue distillate after shutting down and restarting the next
        > day. What happens is that any vapors and liquid, rich in that
        ammoium
        > based nitrogen with sit in the copper parts of your still and cause
        this
        > chemical reaction over that time period. Tis always better to do a
        > complete run thru or if you have to stop, take the head off and rinse
        > out well before restarting.
        >
        > JB.
        >
        >
        > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" tomhawk412@ wrote:
        > >
        > > JB,
        > >
        > > Thanks for the help. I'm still confused about the "nose" of the
        > output. Even if I got the cuts wrtong, the middle of the middle should
        > be as good as it gets and all fractions have the same "nose" and
        bitter
        > after taste.
        > >
        > > As soon as I have an oportunity, I'm going to redistill it.
        > >
        > > The "blue" distillate from the previous run is still a mystery too
        as
        > the first day's out pout was very nice. I shut down and resumed the
        next
        > day (it was a double batch - 10 gallons, total) and the output on the
        > second day was blue. I changed nothing.
        > >
        > > In any event, I'm learning and enjoying every twist and turn!
        > >
        > > Cheers,
        > >
        > > Tom
        >
      • Tom
        JB, Now, that makes sense! I chose to shut down in situ based on a comment in Nixon & McCaw s The Compleat Distiller that a run can be interrupted and
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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          JB,

          Now, that makes sense! I chose to shut down in situ based on a comment in Nixon & McCaw's "The Compleat Distiller" that a run can be interrupted and resumed later with no ill effects and no need to collect foreshots or heads following the resumption as they had been collected earlier. Based on your information, and my recent experience, I will always complete a run.

          Cheers,

          Tom

          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Tom,
          >
          > YWV. However, this is the second or third time I have heard of people
          > producing blue distillate after shutting down and restarting the next
          > day. What happens is that any vapors and liquid, rich in that ammoium
          > based nitrogen with sit in the copper parts of your still and cause this
          > chemical reaction over that time period. Tis always better to do a
          > complete run thru or if you have to stop, take the head off and rinse
          > out well before restarting.
          >
          > JB.
          >
          >
          > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <tomhawk412@> wrote:
          > >
          > > JB,
          > >
          > > Thanks for the help. I'm still confused about the "nose" of the
          > output. Even if I got the cuts wrtong, the middle of the middle should
          > be as good as it gets and all fractions have the same "nose" and bitter
          > after taste.
          > >
          > > As soon as I have an oportunity, I'm going to redistill it.
          > >
          > > The "blue" distillate from the previous run is still a mystery too as
          > the first day's out pout was very nice. I shut down and resumed the next
          > day (it was a double batch - 10 gallons, total) and the output on the
          > second day was blue. I changed nothing.
          > >
          > > In any event, I'm learning and enjoying every twist and turn!
          > >
          > > Cheers,
          > >
          > > Tom
          >
        • jamesonbeam1
          Welp ZB, Again, Im just guessing that something in the wine might have caused those odors if Tom s still was clean. As far as the pH of a JEM wash, if he had
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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            Welp ZB,

            Again, Im just guessing that something in the wine might have caused
            those odors if Tom's still was clean.

            As far as the pH of a JEM wash, if he had followed the directions and
            added lemon juice whilst inverting the sugars, it would have come out
            around a 5.4 to 5.8 pH which would have dropped even more during
            fermentation. Remember in Mason's MUM wash, he uses tomato paste to
            accomplish that.

            But it does seem strange that several members over the past several
            years seem to be getting blue distillate when re-starting a distillation
            the next day. The only execption I remember was when a newbie tried to
            use about 1.4 grams of DAP per liter of fermentation which of course
            caused Schweizer's reagent. *note - that would be almost an ounce of
            DAP in a 5 gallon wash lol. Also if Tom used the correct amount of
            plant food, it should not have caused that reaction in a single run, but
            if left overnight - there might have been enough time for the reaction
            to take place from the vapors and liquids left in the head.

            JB.




            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Interesting, Waldo,
            >
            > I've never heard the part about interrupted runs (distillus
            > interruptus?) and the blue ookies, but it makes sense. If I remember
            the
            > chemistry correctly, Schweizer's reagent is only formed at all if the
            > wash is basic. If Tom has to halt his runs very often, maybe dropping
            > the wash pH to, say, 5, would allow him to avoid "feeling blue" even
            > with an interrupted run.
            >
            > Have you ever tested the pH of your JEM wash?
            >
            > I'm still stumped by the offensive nose.
            >
            > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
            >
            >
            > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" jamesonbeam1@
            > wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Tom,
            > >
            > > YWV. However, this is the second or third time I have heard of
            people
            > > producing blue distillate after shutting down and restarting the
            next
            > > day. What happens is that any vapors and liquid, rich in that
            > ammoium
            > > based nitrogen with sit in the copper parts of your still and cause
            > this
            > > chemical reaction over that time period. Tis always better to do a
            > > complete run thru or if you have to stop, take the head off and
            rinse
            > > out well before restarting.
            > >
            > > JB.
          • jamesonbeam1
            Perhaps a New Golden Rule ZB.... Tis not a good thing to interrtuptus a distillus or coitus??? [;)] JB. aka Waldo aka The Ornery One. ... wrote:
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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              Perhaps a New Golden Rule ZB....

              Tis not a good thing to interrtuptus a distillus or coitus???  ;)

              JB.  aka Waldo aka The Ornery One.


               --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" zymurgybob@
               wrote:

               Interesting, Waldo,

              I've never heard the part about interrupted runs (distillus
               interruptus?)

              ___snip

            • Robert Hubble
              Waldo, A great rule!!! Either one will make you even ornerier! Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com From: jamesonbeam1@yahoo.com
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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                Waldo,

                A great rule!!! Either one will make you even ornerier!

                Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller




                To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                From: jamesonbeam1@...
                Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 15:42:46 +0000
                Subject: [new_distillers] Re: I Need Help (again)

                 

                Perhaps a New Golden Rule ZB....
                Tis not a good thing to interrtuptus a distillus or coitus???  ;)
                JB.  aka Waldo aka The Ornery One.


                ___snip

              • Tom
                JB, I did follow the instructions and add lemmon juice during the sugar conversion. I just checked my log book (indespensible) and can report the following:
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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                  JB,

                  I did follow the instructions and add lemmon juice during the sugar conversion. I just checked my log book (indespensible) and can report the following: The initial pH of wash #1 was 5.12 and #2 was 5.30. I corrected the pH during fermentation on a daily basis to maintain 4.0 to 4.5 by adding potassium bicarbonate. When batch #1 (5 gallons) was finished its pH was 4.45 with a SPG of 0.992; the pH of batch #2 (5 gallons) was 4.77 and the SPG was 0.993. The first day's product (both batches were combined for one run) was sweeeeeet! The second day's product (after I had to shut down overnight) was blue!

                  From now on, I'll never interrupt a run.

                  Cheers,

                  Tom

                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Welp ZB,
                  >
                  > Again, Im just guessing that something in the wine might have caused
                  > those odors if Tom's still was clean.
                  >
                  > As far as the pH of a JEM wash, if he had followed the directions and
                  > added lemon juice whilst inverting the sugars, it would have come out
                  > around a 5.4 to 5.8 pH which would have dropped even more during
                  > fermentation. Remember in Mason's MUM wash, he uses tomato paste to
                  > accomplish that.
                  >
                  > But it does seem strange that several members over the past several
                  > years seem to be getting blue distillate when re-starting a distillation
                  > the next day. The only execption I remember was when a newbie tried to
                  > use about 1.4 grams of DAP per liter of fermentation which of course
                  > caused Schweizer's reagent. *note - that would be almost an ounce of
                  > DAP in a 5 gallon wash lol. Also if Tom used the correct amount of
                  > plant food, it should not have caused that reaction in a single run, but
                  > if left overnight - there might have been enough time for the reaction
                  > to take place from the vapors and liquids left in the head.
                  >
                  > JB.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Interesting, Waldo,
                  > >
                  > > I've never heard the part about interrupted runs (distillus
                  > > interruptus?) and the blue ookies, but it makes sense. If I remember
                  > the
                  > > chemistry correctly, Schweizer's reagent is only formed at all if the
                  > > wash is basic. If Tom has to halt his runs very often, maybe dropping
                  > > the wash pH to, say, 5, would allow him to avoid "feeling blue" even
                  > > with an interrupted run.
                  > >
                  > > Have you ever tested the pH of your JEM wash?
                  > >
                  > > I'm still stumped by the offensive nose.
                  > >
                  > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" jamesonbeam1@
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Tom,
                  > > >
                  > > > YWV. However, this is the second or third time I have heard of
                  > people
                  > > > producing blue distillate after shutting down and restarting the
                  > next
                  > > > day. What happens is that any vapors and liquid, rich in that
                  > > ammoium
                  > > > based nitrogen with sit in the copper parts of your still and cause
                  > > this
                  > > > chemical reaction over that time period. Tis always better to do a
                  > > > complete run thru or if you have to stop, take the head off and
                  > rinse
                  > > > out well before restarting.
                  > > >
                  > > > JB.
                  >
                • Rainero Morgia
                  blue distillates  can  only  result  from  the  reaction   of  copper  and  ammonia  gas...yeasts, nutrients, DAPs,sulfites,  normally 
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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                    blue distillates  can  only  result  from  the  reaction   of  copper  and  ammonia  gas...yeasts, nutrients, DAPs,sulfites,  normally  contain  ammonium  salts  and  are  quite  stable  when  pH is  below 4.5...but  as  it  approaches  neutral  it readily becomes gas....others  claim  that  you will actually start  getting  ammonia  gas  at  pH  of  4.75 and  above...  this  gas  will react  and  corrode  the  copper  resulting  to  a  blue color.... as  a  rule  of  thumb   add  your  potassium  bicarbonate   on  a  stripped  wash  and  never  on   primary  fermentation  as  potassium  bicarbonate  will raise  your  pH  and  might  corrode  the  copper....
                    pH  adjustment  or  buffering  is  hard  to  master  and  its  not  merely  pH  paper or pH meter  or  adding  alkali or acid....especiallly  for  new  distillers  like  us.
                     
                    rainer

                    --- On Thu, 8/5/10, Tom <tomhawk412@...> wrote:

                    From: Tom <tomhawk412@...>
                    Subject: [new_distillers] Re: I Need Help (again)
                    To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Thursday, August 5, 2010, 1:41 AM

                     
                    JB,

                    I did follow the instructions and add lemmon juice during the sugar conversion. I just checked my log book (indespensible) and can report the following: The initial pH of wash #1 was 5.12 and #2 was 5.30. I corrected the pH during fermentation on a daily basis to maintain 4.0 to 4.5 by adding potassium bicarbonate. When batch #1 (5 gallons) was finished its pH was 4.45 with a SPG of 0.992; the pH of batch #2 (5 gallons) was 4.77 and the SPG was 0.993. The first day's product (both batches were combined for one run) was sweeeeeet! The second day's product (after I had to shut down overnight) was blue!

                    From now on, I'll never interrupt a run.

                    Cheers,

                    Tom

                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Welp ZB,
                    >
                    > Again, Im just guessing that something in the wine might have caused
                    > those odors if Tom's still was clean.
                    >
                    > As far as the pH of a JEM wash, if he had followed the directions and
                    > added lemon juice whilst inverting the sugars, it would have come out
                    > around a 5.4 to 5.8 pH which would have dropped even more during
                    > fermentation. Remember in Mason's MUM wash, he uses tomato paste to
                    > accomplish that.
                    >
                    > But it does seem strange that several members over the past several
                    > years seem to be getting blue distillate when re-starting a distillation
                    > the next day. The only execption I remember was when a newbie tried to
                    > use about 1.4 grams of DAP per liter of fermentation which of course
                    > caused Schweizer's reagent. *note - that would be almost an ounce of
                    > DAP in a 5 gallon wash lol. Also if Tom used the correct amount of
                    > plant food, it should not have caused that reaction in a single run, but
                    > if left overnight - there might have been enough time for the reaction
                    > to take place from the vapors and liquids left in the head.
                    >
                    > JB.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Interesting, Waldo,
                    > >
                    > > I've never heard the part about interrupted runs (distillus
                    > > interruptus?) and the blue ookies, but it makes sense. If I remember
                    > the
                    > > chemistry correctly, Schweizer's reagent is only formed at all if the
                    > > wash is basic. If Tom has to halt his runs very often, maybe dropping
                    > > the wash pH to, say, 5, would allow him to avoid "feeling blue" even
                    > > with an interrupted run.
                    > >
                    > > Have you ever tested the pH of your JEM wash?
                    > >
                    > > I'm still stumped by the offensive nose.
                    > >
                    > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" jamesonbeam1@
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Tom,
                    > > >
                    > > > YWV. However, this is the second or third time I have heard of
                    > people
                    > > > producing blue distillate after shutting down and restarting the
                    > next
                    > > > day. What happens is that any vapors and liquid, rich in that
                    > > ammoium
                    > > > based nitrogen with sit in the copper parts of your still and cause
                    > > this
                    > > > chemical reaction over that time period. Tis always better to do a
                    > > > complete run thru or if you have to stop, take the head off and
                    > rinse
                    > > > out well before restarting.
                    > > >
                    > > > JB.
                    >


                  • Tom
                    Rainer, Thanks for the information. I was adding Potassium bicarbonate to the wort as it progressed through fermentation because the pH was dropping like a
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 5, 2010
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                      Rainer,

                      Thanks for the information. I was adding Potassium bicarbonate to the wort as it progressed through fermentation because the pH was dropping like a stone. I was afraid that the yeast would die due to the increased acidity.

                      Tom

                      SNIP
                    • mav
                      Tom, There is your problem, don t add Bicarb to your wash. If you do, well, you now know what happens. In other words, set the ideal starting Ph and don t
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 7, 2010
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                        Tom,

                        There is your problem, don't add Bicarb to your wash. If you do, well, you now know what happens.

                        In other words, set the ideal starting Ph and don't fool with it.

                        __________________________________________________
                        I was adding Potassium bicarbonate to the wort as
                        it progressed through fermentation
                        _________________________________________________:->


                        Cheers
                        Marc

                        Ps. Im sure Harry spoken about the over use of buffers?
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