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Re: I Need Help (again)

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  • jamesonbeam1
    Hi Tom, Sorry, been away playing with my new toy. Its an 84 cup commercial coffee maker that was thown away (looked like it was burnt out by running dry), but
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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      Hi Tom,

      Sorry, been away playing with my new toy. Its an 84 cup commercial
      coffee maker that was thown away (looked like it was burnt out by
      running dry), but was easy to fix with some new wiring. By overridding
      the brewing controls, It makes a really nice boiler and by just
      unscrewing the top glass part to watch the coffee brewing and putting in
      new wash while draining the backset out from the bottom spigot, its
      almost like a continuous distiller. Works great for stripping runs.

      Anyways, not having tasted your product, Im guessing that all the
      playing around you did with your wine and not using the correct
      percentages for heads and tails probably added to the strange "nose" and
      flavors.

      Redistilling should correct the problem. And yes, as ZB mentioned, blue
      distillate is definitly caused by adding too much ammonium based
      nitrogen (in the JEM case - too much plant food). Be a bit more
      consevative next time.

      JB.


      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Wow, Tom,
      >
      > I'm completely bum-foozled. The only thing I can say with any
      confidence
      > at all is: blue product usually means high pH along with lots of
      > nitrogen compounds, so that Schweizer's reagent, an ammonium-copper
      > complex, is formed. I don't think that ever happens with a normal
      acidic
      > wash. Usually, it's from adding bicarb to a wash with yeast nutrients
      in
      > it. In case I really need to say it, bicarb only belongs in once-(or
      > more) distilled washes.
      >
      > As for the rest, I know and use Star-San, and can't see how that
      > connects to bad-flavored wine distillate.
      >
      > Sorry. Anyone else out there got a clue?
      > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" tomhawk412@ wrote:
      > >
      > > Z Bob,
    • Tom
      JB, Thanks for the help. I m still confused about the nose of the output. Even if I got the cuts wrtong, the middle of the middle should be as good as it
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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        JB,

        Thanks for the help. I'm still confused about the "nose" of the output. Even if I got the cuts wrtong, the middle of the middle should be as good as it gets and all fractions have the same "nose" and bitter after taste.

        As soon as I have an oportunity, I'm going to redistill it.

        The "blue" distillate from the previous run is still a mystery too as the first day's out pout was very nice. I shut down and resumed the next day (it was a double batch - 10 gallons, total) and the output on the second day was blue. I changed nothing.

        In any event, I'm learning and enjoying every twist and turn!

        Cheers,

        Tom


        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Hi Tom,
        >
        > Sorry, been away playing with my new toy. Its an 84 cup commercial
        > coffee maker that was thown away (looked like it was burnt out by
        > running dry), but was easy to fix with some new wiring. By overridding
        > the brewing controls, It makes a really nice boiler and by just
        > unscrewing the top glass part to watch the coffee brewing and putting in
        > new wash while draining the backset out from the bottom spigot, its
        > almost like a continuous distiller. Works great for stripping runs.
        >
        > Anyways, not having tasted your product, Im guessing that all the
        > playing around you did with your wine and not using the correct
        > percentages for heads and tails probably added to the strange "nose" and
        > flavors.
        >
        > Redistilling should correct the problem. And yes, as ZB mentioned, blue
        > distillate is definitly caused by adding too much ammonium based
        > nitrogen (in the JEM case - too much plant food). Be a bit more
        > consevative next time.
        >
        > JB.
        >
        >
        > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Wow, Tom,
        > >
        > > I'm completely bum-foozled. The only thing I can say with any
        > confidence
        > > at all is: blue product usually means high pH along with lots of
        > > nitrogen compounds, so that Schweizer's reagent, an ammonium-copper
        > > complex, is formed. I don't think that ever happens with a normal
        > acidic
        > > wash. Usually, it's from adding bicarb to a wash with yeast nutrients
        > in
        > > it. In case I really need to say it, bicarb only belongs in once-(or
        > > more) distilled washes.
        > >
        > > As for the rest, I know and use Star-San, and can't see how that
        > > connects to bad-flavored wine distillate.
        > >
        > > Sorry. Anyone else out there got a clue?
        > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" tomhawk412@ wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Z Bob,
        >
      • jamesonbeam1
        Tom, YWV. However, this is the second or third time I have heard of people producing blue distillate after shutting down and restarting the next day. What
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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          Tom,

          YWV. However, this is the second or third time I have heard of people
          producing blue distillate after shutting down and restarting the next
          day. What happens is that any vapors and liquid, rich in that ammoium
          based nitrogen with sit in the copper parts of your still and cause this
          chemical reaction over that time period. Tis always better to do a
          complete run thru or if you have to stop, take the head off and rinse
          out well before restarting.

          JB.


          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <tomhawk412@...> wrote:
          >
          > JB,
          >
          > Thanks for the help. I'm still confused about the "nose" of the
          output. Even if I got the cuts wrtong, the middle of the middle should
          be as good as it gets and all fractions have the same "nose" and bitter
          after taste.
          >
          > As soon as I have an oportunity, I'm going to redistill it.
          >
          > The "blue" distillate from the previous run is still a mystery too as
          the first day's out pout was very nice. I shut down and resumed the next
          day (it was a double batch - 10 gallons, total) and the output on the
          second day was blue. I changed nothing.
          >
          > In any event, I'm learning and enjoying every twist and turn!
          >
          > Cheers,
          >
          > Tom
        • tgfoitwoods
          Interesting, Waldo, I ve never heard the part about interrupted runs (distillus interruptus?) and the blue ookies, but it makes sense. If I remember the
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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            Interesting, Waldo,

            I've never heard the part about interrupted runs (distillus
            interruptus?) and the blue ookies, but it makes sense. If I remember the
            chemistry correctly, Schweizer's reagent is only formed at all if the
            wash is basic. If Tom has to halt his runs very often, maybe dropping
            the wash pH to, say, 5, would allow him to avoid "feeling blue" even
            with an interrupted run.

            Have you ever tested the pH of your JEM wash?

            I'm still stumped by the offensive nose.

            Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller


            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...>
            wrote:
            >
            >
            > Tom,
            >
            > YWV. However, this is the second or third time I have heard of people
            > producing blue distillate after shutting down and restarting the next
            > day. What happens is that any vapors and liquid, rich in that
            ammoium
            > based nitrogen with sit in the copper parts of your still and cause
            this
            > chemical reaction over that time period. Tis always better to do a
            > complete run thru or if you have to stop, take the head off and rinse
            > out well before restarting.
            >
            > JB.
            >
            >
            > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" tomhawk412@ wrote:
            > >
            > > JB,
            > >
            > > Thanks for the help. I'm still confused about the "nose" of the
            > output. Even if I got the cuts wrtong, the middle of the middle should
            > be as good as it gets and all fractions have the same "nose" and
            bitter
            > after taste.
            > >
            > > As soon as I have an oportunity, I'm going to redistill it.
            > >
            > > The "blue" distillate from the previous run is still a mystery too
            as
            > the first day's out pout was very nice. I shut down and resumed the
            next
            > day (it was a double batch - 10 gallons, total) and the output on the
            > second day was blue. I changed nothing.
            > >
            > > In any event, I'm learning and enjoying every twist and turn!
            > >
            > > Cheers,
            > >
            > > Tom
            >
          • Tom
            JB, Now, that makes sense! I chose to shut down in situ based on a comment in Nixon & McCaw s The Compleat Distiller that a run can be interrupted and
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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              JB,

              Now, that makes sense! I chose to shut down in situ based on a comment in Nixon & McCaw's "The Compleat Distiller" that a run can be interrupted and resumed later with no ill effects and no need to collect foreshots or heads following the resumption as they had been collected earlier. Based on your information, and my recent experience, I will always complete a run.

              Cheers,

              Tom

              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Tom,
              >
              > YWV. However, this is the second or third time I have heard of people
              > producing blue distillate after shutting down and restarting the next
              > day. What happens is that any vapors and liquid, rich in that ammoium
              > based nitrogen with sit in the copper parts of your still and cause this
              > chemical reaction over that time period. Tis always better to do a
              > complete run thru or if you have to stop, take the head off and rinse
              > out well before restarting.
              >
              > JB.
              >
              >
              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <tomhawk412@> wrote:
              > >
              > > JB,
              > >
              > > Thanks for the help. I'm still confused about the "nose" of the
              > output. Even if I got the cuts wrtong, the middle of the middle should
              > be as good as it gets and all fractions have the same "nose" and bitter
              > after taste.
              > >
              > > As soon as I have an oportunity, I'm going to redistill it.
              > >
              > > The "blue" distillate from the previous run is still a mystery too as
              > the first day's out pout was very nice. I shut down and resumed the next
              > day (it was a double batch - 10 gallons, total) and the output on the
              > second day was blue. I changed nothing.
              > >
              > > In any event, I'm learning and enjoying every twist and turn!
              > >
              > > Cheers,
              > >
              > > Tom
              >
            • jamesonbeam1
              Welp ZB, Again, Im just guessing that something in the wine might have caused those odors if Tom s still was clean. As far as the pH of a JEM wash, if he had
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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                Welp ZB,

                Again, Im just guessing that something in the wine might have caused
                those odors if Tom's still was clean.

                As far as the pH of a JEM wash, if he had followed the directions and
                added lemon juice whilst inverting the sugars, it would have come out
                around a 5.4 to 5.8 pH which would have dropped even more during
                fermentation. Remember in Mason's MUM wash, he uses tomato paste to
                accomplish that.

                But it does seem strange that several members over the past several
                years seem to be getting blue distillate when re-starting a distillation
                the next day. The only execption I remember was when a newbie tried to
                use about 1.4 grams of DAP per liter of fermentation which of course
                caused Schweizer's reagent. *note - that would be almost an ounce of
                DAP in a 5 gallon wash lol. Also if Tom used the correct amount of
                plant food, it should not have caused that reaction in a single run, but
                if left overnight - there might have been enough time for the reaction
                to take place from the vapors and liquids left in the head.

                JB.




                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Interesting, Waldo,
                >
                > I've never heard the part about interrupted runs (distillus
                > interruptus?) and the blue ookies, but it makes sense. If I remember
                the
                > chemistry correctly, Schweizer's reagent is only formed at all if the
                > wash is basic. If Tom has to halt his runs very often, maybe dropping
                > the wash pH to, say, 5, would allow him to avoid "feeling blue" even
                > with an interrupted run.
                >
                > Have you ever tested the pH of your JEM wash?
                >
                > I'm still stumped by the offensive nose.
                >
                > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                >
                >
                > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" jamesonbeam1@
                > wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > Tom,
                > >
                > > YWV. However, this is the second or third time I have heard of
                people
                > > producing blue distillate after shutting down and restarting the
                next
                > > day. What happens is that any vapors and liquid, rich in that
                > ammoium
                > > based nitrogen with sit in the copper parts of your still and cause
                > this
                > > chemical reaction over that time period. Tis always better to do a
                > > complete run thru or if you have to stop, take the head off and
                rinse
                > > out well before restarting.
                > >
                > > JB.
              • jamesonbeam1
                Perhaps a New Golden Rule ZB.... Tis not a good thing to interrtuptus a distillus or coitus??? [;)] JB. aka Waldo aka The Ornery One. ... wrote:
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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                  Perhaps a New Golden Rule ZB....

                  Tis not a good thing to interrtuptus a distillus or coitus???  ;)

                  JB.  aka Waldo aka The Ornery One.


                   --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" zymurgybob@
                   wrote:

                   Interesting, Waldo,

                  I've never heard the part about interrupted runs (distillus
                   interruptus?)

                  ___snip

                • Robert Hubble
                  Waldo, A great rule!!! Either one will make you even ornerier! Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com From: jamesonbeam1@yahoo.com
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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                    Waldo,

                    A great rule!!! Either one will make you even ornerier!

                    Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller




                    To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    From: jamesonbeam1@...
                    Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 15:42:46 +0000
                    Subject: [new_distillers] Re: I Need Help (again)

                     

                    Perhaps a New Golden Rule ZB....
                    Tis not a good thing to interrtuptus a distillus or coitus???  ;)
                    JB.  aka Waldo aka The Ornery One.


                    ___snip

                  • Tom
                    JB, I did follow the instructions and add lemmon juice during the sugar conversion. I just checked my log book (indespensible) and can report the following:
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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                      JB,

                      I did follow the instructions and add lemmon juice during the sugar conversion. I just checked my log book (indespensible) and can report the following: The initial pH of wash #1 was 5.12 and #2 was 5.30. I corrected the pH during fermentation on a daily basis to maintain 4.0 to 4.5 by adding potassium bicarbonate. When batch #1 (5 gallons) was finished its pH was 4.45 with a SPG of 0.992; the pH of batch #2 (5 gallons) was 4.77 and the SPG was 0.993. The first day's product (both batches were combined for one run) was sweeeeeet! The second day's product (after I had to shut down overnight) was blue!

                      From now on, I'll never interrupt a run.

                      Cheers,

                      Tom

                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Welp ZB,
                      >
                      > Again, Im just guessing that something in the wine might have caused
                      > those odors if Tom's still was clean.
                      >
                      > As far as the pH of a JEM wash, if he had followed the directions and
                      > added lemon juice whilst inverting the sugars, it would have come out
                      > around a 5.4 to 5.8 pH which would have dropped even more during
                      > fermentation. Remember in Mason's MUM wash, he uses tomato paste to
                      > accomplish that.
                      >
                      > But it does seem strange that several members over the past several
                      > years seem to be getting blue distillate when re-starting a distillation
                      > the next day. The only execption I remember was when a newbie tried to
                      > use about 1.4 grams of DAP per liter of fermentation which of course
                      > caused Schweizer's reagent. *note - that would be almost an ounce of
                      > DAP in a 5 gallon wash lol. Also if Tom used the correct amount of
                      > plant food, it should not have caused that reaction in a single run, but
                      > if left overnight - there might have been enough time for the reaction
                      > to take place from the vapors and liquids left in the head.
                      >
                      > JB.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Interesting, Waldo,
                      > >
                      > > I've never heard the part about interrupted runs (distillus
                      > > interruptus?) and the blue ookies, but it makes sense. If I remember
                      > the
                      > > chemistry correctly, Schweizer's reagent is only formed at all if the
                      > > wash is basic. If Tom has to halt his runs very often, maybe dropping
                      > > the wash pH to, say, 5, would allow him to avoid "feeling blue" even
                      > > with an interrupted run.
                      > >
                      > > Have you ever tested the pH of your JEM wash?
                      > >
                      > > I'm still stumped by the offensive nose.
                      > >
                      > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" jamesonbeam1@
                      > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Tom,
                      > > >
                      > > > YWV. However, this is the second or third time I have heard of
                      > people
                      > > > producing blue distillate after shutting down and restarting the
                      > next
                      > > > day. What happens is that any vapors and liquid, rich in that
                      > > ammoium
                      > > > based nitrogen with sit in the copper parts of your still and cause
                      > > this
                      > > > chemical reaction over that time period. Tis always better to do a
                      > > > complete run thru or if you have to stop, take the head off and
                      > rinse
                      > > > out well before restarting.
                      > > >
                      > > > JB.
                      >
                    • Rainero Morgia
                      blue distillates  can  only  result  from  the  reaction   of  copper  and  ammonia  gas...yeasts, nutrients, DAPs,sulfites,  normally 
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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                        blue distillates  can  only  result  from  the  reaction   of  copper  and  ammonia  gas...yeasts, nutrients, DAPs,sulfites,  normally  contain  ammonium  salts  and  are  quite  stable  when  pH is  below 4.5...but  as  it  approaches  neutral  it readily becomes gas....others  claim  that  you will actually start  getting  ammonia  gas  at  pH  of  4.75 and  above...  this  gas  will react  and  corrode  the  copper  resulting  to  a  blue color.... as  a  rule  of  thumb   add  your  potassium  bicarbonate   on  a  stripped  wash  and  never  on   primary  fermentation  as  potassium  bicarbonate  will raise  your  pH  and  might  corrode  the  copper....
                        pH  adjustment  or  buffering  is  hard  to  master  and  its  not  merely  pH  paper or pH meter  or  adding  alkali or acid....especiallly  for  new  distillers  like  us.
                         
                        rainer

                        --- On Thu, 8/5/10, Tom <tomhawk412@...> wrote:

                        From: Tom <tomhawk412@...>
                        Subject: [new_distillers] Re: I Need Help (again)
                        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Thursday, August 5, 2010, 1:41 AM

                         
                        JB,

                        I did follow the instructions and add lemmon juice during the sugar conversion. I just checked my log book (indespensible) and can report the following: The initial pH of wash #1 was 5.12 and #2 was 5.30. I corrected the pH during fermentation on a daily basis to maintain 4.0 to 4.5 by adding potassium bicarbonate. When batch #1 (5 gallons) was finished its pH was 4.45 with a SPG of 0.992; the pH of batch #2 (5 gallons) was 4.77 and the SPG was 0.993. The first day's product (both batches were combined for one run) was sweeeeeet! The second day's product (after I had to shut down overnight) was blue!

                        From now on, I'll never interrupt a run.

                        Cheers,

                        Tom

                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Welp ZB,
                        >
                        > Again, Im just guessing that something in the wine might have caused
                        > those odors if Tom's still was clean.
                        >
                        > As far as the pH of a JEM wash, if he had followed the directions and
                        > added lemon juice whilst inverting the sugars, it would have come out
                        > around a 5.4 to 5.8 pH which would have dropped even more during
                        > fermentation. Remember in Mason's MUM wash, he uses tomato paste to
                        > accomplish that.
                        >
                        > But it does seem strange that several members over the past several
                        > years seem to be getting blue distillate when re-starting a distillation
                        > the next day. The only execption I remember was when a newbie tried to
                        > use about 1.4 grams of DAP per liter of fermentation which of course
                        > caused Schweizer's reagent. *note - that would be almost an ounce of
                        > DAP in a 5 gallon wash lol. Also if Tom used the correct amount of
                        > plant food, it should not have caused that reaction in a single run, but
                        > if left overnight - there might have been enough time for the reaction
                        > to take place from the vapors and liquids left in the head.
                        >
                        > JB.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Interesting, Waldo,
                        > >
                        > > I've never heard the part about interrupted runs (distillus
                        > > interruptus?) and the blue ookies, but it makes sense. If I remember
                        > the
                        > > chemistry correctly, Schweizer's reagent is only formed at all if the
                        > > wash is basic. If Tom has to halt his runs very often, maybe dropping
                        > > the wash pH to, say, 5, would allow him to avoid "feeling blue" even
                        > > with an interrupted run.
                        > >
                        > > Have you ever tested the pH of your JEM wash?
                        > >
                        > > I'm still stumped by the offensive nose.
                        > >
                        > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" jamesonbeam1@
                        > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Tom,
                        > > >
                        > > > YWV. However, this is the second or third time I have heard of
                        > people
                        > > > producing blue distillate after shutting down and restarting the
                        > next
                        > > > day. What happens is that any vapors and liquid, rich in that
                        > > ammoium
                        > > > based nitrogen with sit in the copper parts of your still and cause
                        > > this
                        > > > chemical reaction over that time period. Tis always better to do a
                        > > > complete run thru or if you have to stop, take the head off and
                        > rinse
                        > > > out well before restarting.
                        > > >
                        > > > JB.
                        >


                      • Tom
                        Rainer, Thanks for the information. I was adding Potassium bicarbonate to the wort as it progressed through fermentation because the pH was dropping like a
                        Message 11 of 18 , Aug 5, 2010
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                          Rainer,

                          Thanks for the information. I was adding Potassium bicarbonate to the wort as it progressed through fermentation because the pH was dropping like a stone. I was afraid that the yeast would die due to the increased acidity.

                          Tom

                          SNIP
                        • mav
                          Tom, There is your problem, don t add Bicarb to your wash. If you do, well, you now know what happens. In other words, set the ideal starting Ph and don t
                          Message 12 of 18 , Aug 7, 2010
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                            Tom,

                            There is your problem, don't add Bicarb to your wash. If you do, well, you now know what happens.

                            In other words, set the ideal starting Ph and don't fool with it.

                            __________________________________________________
                            I was adding Potassium bicarbonate to the wort as
                            it progressed through fermentation
                            _________________________________________________:->


                            Cheers
                            Marc

                            Ps. Im sure Harry spoken about the over use of buffers?
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