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Re: I Need Help (again)

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  • tgfoitwoods
    Wow, Tom, I m completely bum-foozled. The only thing I can say with any confidence at all is: blue product usually means high pH along with lots of nitrogen
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 3, 2010
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      Wow, Tom,

      I'm completely bum-foozled. The only thing I can say with any confidence
      at all is: blue product usually means high pH along with lots of
      nitrogen compounds, so that Schweizer's reagent, an ammonium-copper
      complex, is formed. I don't think that ever happens with a normal acidic
      wash. Usually, it's from adding bicarb to a wash with yeast nutrients in
      it. In case I really need to say it, bicarb only belongs in once-(or
      more) distilled washes.

      As for the rest, I know and use Star-San, and can't see how that
      connects to bad-flavored wine distillate.

      Sorry. Anyone else out there got a clue?
      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <tomhawk412@...> wrote:
      >
      > Z Bob,
      >
      > Thanks for your input. You asked if this was a first run with new
      equipment. No. It was the third run. The two (2) prior runs were JEM
      (Jim's Energy Miracle Gro) sugar washes. The first one turned out
      great. The second one started out great. It was a double batch. I
      stopped mid-way and resumed the following day. For some reason I got
      blue product on the second day. I treated it with citric acid and will
      re-run that portion of the output. Following that run, I completely
      dismantled the still, cleaned it with Five Star Star-San followed by
      vinegar/water at a ratio of 1 part vinegar to 3 parts water. The system
      was clean when I ran the wine through it.
      >
      > I'm going to dilute the neutral that I collected from the wine and
      re-run it.
      >
      > Thanks for your help.
      >
      > Cheers,
      >
      > Tom
      >
      ----snip----
    • jamesonbeam1
      Hi Tom, Sorry, been away playing with my new toy. Its an 84 cup commercial coffee maker that was thown away (looked like it was burnt out by running dry), but
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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        Hi Tom,

        Sorry, been away playing with my new toy. Its an 84 cup commercial
        coffee maker that was thown away (looked like it was burnt out by
        running dry), but was easy to fix with some new wiring. By overridding
        the brewing controls, It makes a really nice boiler and by just
        unscrewing the top glass part to watch the coffee brewing and putting in
        new wash while draining the backset out from the bottom spigot, its
        almost like a continuous distiller. Works great for stripping runs.

        Anyways, not having tasted your product, Im guessing that all the
        playing around you did with your wine and not using the correct
        percentages for heads and tails probably added to the strange "nose" and
        flavors.

        Redistilling should correct the problem. And yes, as ZB mentioned, blue
        distillate is definitly caused by adding too much ammonium based
        nitrogen (in the JEM case - too much plant food). Be a bit more
        consevative next time.

        JB.


        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Wow, Tom,
        >
        > I'm completely bum-foozled. The only thing I can say with any
        confidence
        > at all is: blue product usually means high pH along with lots of
        > nitrogen compounds, so that Schweizer's reagent, an ammonium-copper
        > complex, is formed. I don't think that ever happens with a normal
        acidic
        > wash. Usually, it's from adding bicarb to a wash with yeast nutrients
        in
        > it. In case I really need to say it, bicarb only belongs in once-(or
        > more) distilled washes.
        >
        > As for the rest, I know and use Star-San, and can't see how that
        > connects to bad-flavored wine distillate.
        >
        > Sorry. Anyone else out there got a clue?
        > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" tomhawk412@ wrote:
        > >
        > > Z Bob,
      • Tom
        JB, Thanks for the help. I m still confused about the nose of the output. Even if I got the cuts wrtong, the middle of the middle should be as good as it
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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          JB,

          Thanks for the help. I'm still confused about the "nose" of the output. Even if I got the cuts wrtong, the middle of the middle should be as good as it gets and all fractions have the same "nose" and bitter after taste.

          As soon as I have an oportunity, I'm going to redistill it.

          The "blue" distillate from the previous run is still a mystery too as the first day's out pout was very nice. I shut down and resumed the next day (it was a double batch - 10 gallons, total) and the output on the second day was blue. I changed nothing.

          In any event, I'm learning and enjoying every twist and turn!

          Cheers,

          Tom


          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hi Tom,
          >
          > Sorry, been away playing with my new toy. Its an 84 cup commercial
          > coffee maker that was thown away (looked like it was burnt out by
          > running dry), but was easy to fix with some new wiring. By overridding
          > the brewing controls, It makes a really nice boiler and by just
          > unscrewing the top glass part to watch the coffee brewing and putting in
          > new wash while draining the backset out from the bottom spigot, its
          > almost like a continuous distiller. Works great for stripping runs.
          >
          > Anyways, not having tasted your product, Im guessing that all the
          > playing around you did with your wine and not using the correct
          > percentages for heads and tails probably added to the strange "nose" and
          > flavors.
          >
          > Redistilling should correct the problem. And yes, as ZB mentioned, blue
          > distillate is definitly caused by adding too much ammonium based
          > nitrogen (in the JEM case - too much plant food). Be a bit more
          > consevative next time.
          >
          > JB.
          >
          >
          > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Wow, Tom,
          > >
          > > I'm completely bum-foozled. The only thing I can say with any
          > confidence
          > > at all is: blue product usually means high pH along with lots of
          > > nitrogen compounds, so that Schweizer's reagent, an ammonium-copper
          > > complex, is formed. I don't think that ever happens with a normal
          > acidic
          > > wash. Usually, it's from adding bicarb to a wash with yeast nutrients
          > in
          > > it. In case I really need to say it, bicarb only belongs in once-(or
          > > more) distilled washes.
          > >
          > > As for the rest, I know and use Star-San, and can't see how that
          > > connects to bad-flavored wine distillate.
          > >
          > > Sorry. Anyone else out there got a clue?
          > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" tomhawk412@ wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Z Bob,
          >
        • jamesonbeam1
          Tom, YWV. However, this is the second or third time I have heard of people producing blue distillate after shutting down and restarting the next day. What
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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            Tom,

            YWV. However, this is the second or third time I have heard of people
            producing blue distillate after shutting down and restarting the next
            day. What happens is that any vapors and liquid, rich in that ammoium
            based nitrogen with sit in the copper parts of your still and cause this
            chemical reaction over that time period. Tis always better to do a
            complete run thru or if you have to stop, take the head off and rinse
            out well before restarting.

            JB.


            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <tomhawk412@...> wrote:
            >
            > JB,
            >
            > Thanks for the help. I'm still confused about the "nose" of the
            output. Even if I got the cuts wrtong, the middle of the middle should
            be as good as it gets and all fractions have the same "nose" and bitter
            after taste.
            >
            > As soon as I have an oportunity, I'm going to redistill it.
            >
            > The "blue" distillate from the previous run is still a mystery too as
            the first day's out pout was very nice. I shut down and resumed the next
            day (it was a double batch - 10 gallons, total) and the output on the
            second day was blue. I changed nothing.
            >
            > In any event, I'm learning and enjoying every twist and turn!
            >
            > Cheers,
            >
            > Tom
          • tgfoitwoods
            Interesting, Waldo, I ve never heard the part about interrupted runs (distillus interruptus?) and the blue ookies, but it makes sense. If I remember the
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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              Interesting, Waldo,

              I've never heard the part about interrupted runs (distillus
              interruptus?) and the blue ookies, but it makes sense. If I remember the
              chemistry correctly, Schweizer's reagent is only formed at all if the
              wash is basic. If Tom has to halt his runs very often, maybe dropping
              the wash pH to, say, 5, would allow him to avoid "feeling blue" even
              with an interrupted run.

              Have you ever tested the pH of your JEM wash?

              I'm still stumped by the offensive nose.

              Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller


              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...>
              wrote:
              >
              >
              > Tom,
              >
              > YWV. However, this is the second or third time I have heard of people
              > producing blue distillate after shutting down and restarting the next
              > day. What happens is that any vapors and liquid, rich in that
              ammoium
              > based nitrogen with sit in the copper parts of your still and cause
              this
              > chemical reaction over that time period. Tis always better to do a
              > complete run thru or if you have to stop, take the head off and rinse
              > out well before restarting.
              >
              > JB.
              >
              >
              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" tomhawk412@ wrote:
              > >
              > > JB,
              > >
              > > Thanks for the help. I'm still confused about the "nose" of the
              > output. Even if I got the cuts wrtong, the middle of the middle should
              > be as good as it gets and all fractions have the same "nose" and
              bitter
              > after taste.
              > >
              > > As soon as I have an oportunity, I'm going to redistill it.
              > >
              > > The "blue" distillate from the previous run is still a mystery too
              as
              > the first day's out pout was very nice. I shut down and resumed the
              next
              > day (it was a double batch - 10 gallons, total) and the output on the
              > second day was blue. I changed nothing.
              > >
              > > In any event, I'm learning and enjoying every twist and turn!
              > >
              > > Cheers,
              > >
              > > Tom
              >
            • Tom
              JB, Now, that makes sense! I chose to shut down in situ based on a comment in Nixon & McCaw s The Compleat Distiller that a run can be interrupted and
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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                JB,

                Now, that makes sense! I chose to shut down in situ based on a comment in Nixon & McCaw's "The Compleat Distiller" that a run can be interrupted and resumed later with no ill effects and no need to collect foreshots or heads following the resumption as they had been collected earlier. Based on your information, and my recent experience, I will always complete a run.

                Cheers,

                Tom

                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Tom,
                >
                > YWV. However, this is the second or third time I have heard of people
                > producing blue distillate after shutting down and restarting the next
                > day. What happens is that any vapors and liquid, rich in that ammoium
                > based nitrogen with sit in the copper parts of your still and cause this
                > chemical reaction over that time period. Tis always better to do a
                > complete run thru or if you have to stop, take the head off and rinse
                > out well before restarting.
                >
                > JB.
                >
                >
                > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <tomhawk412@> wrote:
                > >
                > > JB,
                > >
                > > Thanks for the help. I'm still confused about the "nose" of the
                > output. Even if I got the cuts wrtong, the middle of the middle should
                > be as good as it gets and all fractions have the same "nose" and bitter
                > after taste.
                > >
                > > As soon as I have an oportunity, I'm going to redistill it.
                > >
                > > The "blue" distillate from the previous run is still a mystery too as
                > the first day's out pout was very nice. I shut down and resumed the next
                > day (it was a double batch - 10 gallons, total) and the output on the
                > second day was blue. I changed nothing.
                > >
                > > In any event, I'm learning and enjoying every twist and turn!
                > >
                > > Cheers,
                > >
                > > Tom
                >
              • jamesonbeam1
                Welp ZB, Again, Im just guessing that something in the wine might have caused those odors if Tom s still was clean. As far as the pH of a JEM wash, if he had
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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                  Welp ZB,

                  Again, Im just guessing that something in the wine might have caused
                  those odors if Tom's still was clean.

                  As far as the pH of a JEM wash, if he had followed the directions and
                  added lemon juice whilst inverting the sugars, it would have come out
                  around a 5.4 to 5.8 pH which would have dropped even more during
                  fermentation. Remember in Mason's MUM wash, he uses tomato paste to
                  accomplish that.

                  But it does seem strange that several members over the past several
                  years seem to be getting blue distillate when re-starting a distillation
                  the next day. The only execption I remember was when a newbie tried to
                  use about 1.4 grams of DAP per liter of fermentation which of course
                  caused Schweizer's reagent. *note - that would be almost an ounce of
                  DAP in a 5 gallon wash lol. Also if Tom used the correct amount of
                  plant food, it should not have caused that reaction in a single run, but
                  if left overnight - there might have been enough time for the reaction
                  to take place from the vapors and liquids left in the head.

                  JB.




                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Interesting, Waldo,
                  >
                  > I've never heard the part about interrupted runs (distillus
                  > interruptus?) and the blue ookies, but it makes sense. If I remember
                  the
                  > chemistry correctly, Schweizer's reagent is only formed at all if the
                  > wash is basic. If Tom has to halt his runs very often, maybe dropping
                  > the wash pH to, say, 5, would allow him to avoid "feeling blue" even
                  > with an interrupted run.
                  >
                  > Have you ever tested the pH of your JEM wash?
                  >
                  > I'm still stumped by the offensive nose.
                  >
                  > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" jamesonbeam1@
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Tom,
                  > >
                  > > YWV. However, this is the second or third time I have heard of
                  people
                  > > producing blue distillate after shutting down and restarting the
                  next
                  > > day. What happens is that any vapors and liquid, rich in that
                  > ammoium
                  > > based nitrogen with sit in the copper parts of your still and cause
                  > this
                  > > chemical reaction over that time period. Tis always better to do a
                  > > complete run thru or if you have to stop, take the head off and
                  rinse
                  > > out well before restarting.
                  > >
                  > > JB.
                • jamesonbeam1
                  Perhaps a New Golden Rule ZB.... Tis not a good thing to interrtuptus a distillus or coitus??? [;)] JB. aka Waldo aka The Ornery One. ... wrote:
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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                    Perhaps a New Golden Rule ZB....

                    Tis not a good thing to interrtuptus a distillus or coitus???  ;)

                    JB.  aka Waldo aka The Ornery One.


                     --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" zymurgybob@
                     wrote:

                     Interesting, Waldo,

                    I've never heard the part about interrupted runs (distillus
                     interruptus?)

                    ___snip

                  • Robert Hubble
                    Waldo, A great rule!!! Either one will make you even ornerier! Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com From: jamesonbeam1@yahoo.com
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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                      Waldo,

                      A great rule!!! Either one will make you even ornerier!

                      Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller




                      To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      From: jamesonbeam1@...
                      Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 15:42:46 +0000
                      Subject: [new_distillers] Re: I Need Help (again)

                       

                      Perhaps a New Golden Rule ZB....
                      Tis not a good thing to interrtuptus a distillus or coitus???  ;)
                      JB.  aka Waldo aka The Ornery One.


                      ___snip

                    • Tom
                      JB, I did follow the instructions and add lemmon juice during the sugar conversion. I just checked my log book (indespensible) and can report the following:
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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                        JB,

                        I did follow the instructions and add lemmon juice during the sugar conversion. I just checked my log book (indespensible) and can report the following: The initial pH of wash #1 was 5.12 and #2 was 5.30. I corrected the pH during fermentation on a daily basis to maintain 4.0 to 4.5 by adding potassium bicarbonate. When batch #1 (5 gallons) was finished its pH was 4.45 with a SPG of 0.992; the pH of batch #2 (5 gallons) was 4.77 and the SPG was 0.993. The first day's product (both batches were combined for one run) was sweeeeeet! The second day's product (after I had to shut down overnight) was blue!

                        From now on, I'll never interrupt a run.

                        Cheers,

                        Tom

                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Welp ZB,
                        >
                        > Again, Im just guessing that something in the wine might have caused
                        > those odors if Tom's still was clean.
                        >
                        > As far as the pH of a JEM wash, if he had followed the directions and
                        > added lemon juice whilst inverting the sugars, it would have come out
                        > around a 5.4 to 5.8 pH which would have dropped even more during
                        > fermentation. Remember in Mason's MUM wash, he uses tomato paste to
                        > accomplish that.
                        >
                        > But it does seem strange that several members over the past several
                        > years seem to be getting blue distillate when re-starting a distillation
                        > the next day. The only execption I remember was when a newbie tried to
                        > use about 1.4 grams of DAP per liter of fermentation which of course
                        > caused Schweizer's reagent. *note - that would be almost an ounce of
                        > DAP in a 5 gallon wash lol. Also if Tom used the correct amount of
                        > plant food, it should not have caused that reaction in a single run, but
                        > if left overnight - there might have been enough time for the reaction
                        > to take place from the vapors and liquids left in the head.
                        >
                        > JB.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Interesting, Waldo,
                        > >
                        > > I've never heard the part about interrupted runs (distillus
                        > > interruptus?) and the blue ookies, but it makes sense. If I remember
                        > the
                        > > chemistry correctly, Schweizer's reagent is only formed at all if the
                        > > wash is basic. If Tom has to halt his runs very often, maybe dropping
                        > > the wash pH to, say, 5, would allow him to avoid "feeling blue" even
                        > > with an interrupted run.
                        > >
                        > > Have you ever tested the pH of your JEM wash?
                        > >
                        > > I'm still stumped by the offensive nose.
                        > >
                        > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" jamesonbeam1@
                        > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Tom,
                        > > >
                        > > > YWV. However, this is the second or third time I have heard of
                        > people
                        > > > producing blue distillate after shutting down and restarting the
                        > next
                        > > > day. What happens is that any vapors and liquid, rich in that
                        > > ammoium
                        > > > based nitrogen with sit in the copper parts of your still and cause
                        > > this
                        > > > chemical reaction over that time period. Tis always better to do a
                        > > > complete run thru or if you have to stop, take the head off and
                        > rinse
                        > > > out well before restarting.
                        > > >
                        > > > JB.
                        >
                      • Rainero Morgia
                        blue distillates  can  only  result  from  the  reaction   of  copper  and  ammonia  gas...yeasts, nutrients, DAPs,sulfites,  normally 
                        Message 11 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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                          blue distillates  can  only  result  from  the  reaction   of  copper  and  ammonia  gas...yeasts, nutrients, DAPs,sulfites,  normally  contain  ammonium  salts  and  are  quite  stable  when  pH is  below 4.5...but  as  it  approaches  neutral  it readily becomes gas....others  claim  that  you will actually start  getting  ammonia  gas  at  pH  of  4.75 and  above...  this  gas  will react  and  corrode  the  copper  resulting  to  a  blue color.... as  a  rule  of  thumb   add  your  potassium  bicarbonate   on  a  stripped  wash  and  never  on   primary  fermentation  as  potassium  bicarbonate  will raise  your  pH  and  might  corrode  the  copper....
                          pH  adjustment  or  buffering  is  hard  to  master  and  its  not  merely  pH  paper or pH meter  or  adding  alkali or acid....especiallly  for  new  distillers  like  us.
                           
                          rainer

                          --- On Thu, 8/5/10, Tom <tomhawk412@...> wrote:

                          From: Tom <tomhawk412@...>
                          Subject: [new_distillers] Re: I Need Help (again)
                          To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Thursday, August 5, 2010, 1:41 AM

                           
                          JB,

                          I did follow the instructions and add lemmon juice during the sugar conversion. I just checked my log book (indespensible) and can report the following: The initial pH of wash #1 was 5.12 and #2 was 5.30. I corrected the pH during fermentation on a daily basis to maintain 4.0 to 4.5 by adding potassium bicarbonate. When batch #1 (5 gallons) was finished its pH was 4.45 with a SPG of 0.992; the pH of batch #2 (5 gallons) was 4.77 and the SPG was 0.993. The first day's product (both batches were combined for one run) was sweeeeeet! The second day's product (after I had to shut down overnight) was blue!

                          From now on, I'll never interrupt a run.

                          Cheers,

                          Tom

                          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Welp ZB,
                          >
                          > Again, Im just guessing that something in the wine might have caused
                          > those odors if Tom's still was clean.
                          >
                          > As far as the pH of a JEM wash, if he had followed the directions and
                          > added lemon juice whilst inverting the sugars, it would have come out
                          > around a 5.4 to 5.8 pH which would have dropped even more during
                          > fermentation. Remember in Mason's MUM wash, he uses tomato paste to
                          > accomplish that.
                          >
                          > But it does seem strange that several members over the past several
                          > years seem to be getting blue distillate when re-starting a distillation
                          > the next day. The only execption I remember was when a newbie tried to
                          > use about 1.4 grams of DAP per liter of fermentation which of course
                          > caused Schweizer's reagent. *note - that would be almost an ounce of
                          > DAP in a 5 gallon wash lol. Also if Tom used the correct amount of
                          > plant food, it should not have caused that reaction in a single run, but
                          > if left overnight - there might have been enough time for the reaction
                          > to take place from the vapors and liquids left in the head.
                          >
                          > JB.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Interesting, Waldo,
                          > >
                          > > I've never heard the part about interrupted runs (distillus
                          > > interruptus?) and the blue ookies, but it makes sense. If I remember
                          > the
                          > > chemistry correctly, Schweizer's reagent is only formed at all if the
                          > > wash is basic. If Tom has to halt his runs very often, maybe dropping
                          > > the wash pH to, say, 5, would allow him to avoid "feeling blue" even
                          > > with an interrupted run.
                          > >
                          > > Have you ever tested the pH of your JEM wash?
                          > >
                          > > I'm still stumped by the offensive nose.
                          > >
                          > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" jamesonbeam1@
                          > > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Tom,
                          > > >
                          > > > YWV. However, this is the second or third time I have heard of
                          > people
                          > > > producing blue distillate after shutting down and restarting the
                          > next
                          > > > day. What happens is that any vapors and liquid, rich in that
                          > > ammoium
                          > > > based nitrogen with sit in the copper parts of your still and cause
                          > > this
                          > > > chemical reaction over that time period. Tis always better to do a
                          > > > complete run thru or if you have to stop, take the head off and
                          > rinse
                          > > > out well before restarting.
                          > > >
                          > > > JB.
                          >


                        • Tom
                          Rainer, Thanks for the information. I was adding Potassium bicarbonate to the wort as it progressed through fermentation because the pH was dropping like a
                          Message 12 of 18 , Aug 5, 2010
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                            Rainer,

                            Thanks for the information. I was adding Potassium bicarbonate to the wort as it progressed through fermentation because the pH was dropping like a stone. I was afraid that the yeast would die due to the increased acidity.

                            Tom

                            SNIP
                          • mav
                            Tom, There is your problem, don t add Bicarb to your wash. If you do, well, you now know what happens. In other words, set the ideal starting Ph and don t
                            Message 13 of 18 , Aug 7, 2010
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                              Tom,

                              There is your problem, don't add Bicarb to your wash. If you do, well, you now know what happens.

                              In other words, set the ideal starting Ph and don't fool with it.

                              __________________________________________________
                              I was adding Potassium bicarbonate to the wort as
                              it progressed through fermentation
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                              Cheers
                              Marc

                              Ps. Im sure Harry spoken about the over use of buffers?
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